skyservice_330
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Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:50 am

Get out of Afghanistan now: NDP
Caucus to discuss how this week
Sep. 10, 2006. 01:00 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU

QUEBEC—NDP Leader Jack Layton wants Parliament to debate the withdrawal of Canadian soldiers from Afghanistan after party delegates overwhelmingly backed his call to "bring the troops home."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...geid=968332188774&col=968350116467

I don't think anyone doubts that Afghanistan is a very dangerous mission for Canadian troops (as evidenced by the soldiers coming home in body bags) however, the last thing we need to do at this point is pull out with our tail between our legs. Thank goodness Jack isn't the PM with his NDP colleagues in cabinet. Cowards.

Thoughts?
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
I don't think anyone doubts that Afghanistan is a very dangerous mission for Canadian troops (as evidenced by the soldiers coming home in body bags) however, the last thing we need to do at this point is pull out with our tail between our legs. Thank goodness Jack isn't the PM with his NDP colleagues in cabinet. Cowards.

Exactly correct. Jack Layton a week or two ago wanted to talk with the Taliban, now he wants a full pullout, he's all over the place. Canada is doing a job over that that needs to be seen through to completion. I'm especially disgusted with him blaming Harper and the Conservative government for Afghanistan lately, now it's no secret that I'm a huge Conservative, but still, does he forget that it was Paul Martin and the Liberals that sent our troops there in the first place?

It's comments like this that make Jack Layton and the NDP an ever decreasing force in Canadian politics. Canada has chosen not to participate in some elements of the War on Terror, but the Afghanistan mission, which we supported, we need to win, and see through to the finish. Canada never backed down in WWI, WWII, or any other conflict that we've been engaged in militarily. This is the time for Canadians to stand behind our troops and their mission, not undercut them and have people at home questioning their mission. Our soilders deserve better than people like Jack Layton questioning their mission.

See you later Jack, you'll never win over the support of many Canadians.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
MattRB
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:57 am

Layton and the NDP should be ashamed of themselves for trying to score political points with the Canadian public on the backs of dead service members.

Simply despicable.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:58 am

This is absolutley shameful, but not surprising coming from Layton. I actually considered voting Liberal (gasp) just because Jack Layton was up for election in my riding when I lived in Toronto. I would be lying to you if I said that the combination of David Miller, Jack Layton and Dalton McGuinty had nothing to do with my choice to leave.

What kind of message would a flat out retreat send to Canadian troops? What have they been toughing it out for (and losing some of their friends in the process) the past few years? That Canada's military is only there to hand out candy to children and help 80-year old grandmothers cross the street in some sort of NDP fantasy? It would destroy whatever morale is still there. And sends a clear message to Al-Qaeda that Canada has no intention of defending its interests.
 
CRJ705
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:05 am

I think Layton and his camp wants us to pull out of Afghanistan because they believe that we are just lapdogs to President Bush. I personally dont believe we are in Afghanistan just to please the United States, yet Layton is pushing this stance. There can be two reasons for this, one is that Layton truly believes that our mission in Afghanistan is to satisfy Washington, which seems unlikely given how intelligent Layton is. The second and most proboble reason is that he wishes to capitalize on the recent public opinion polls which are showing Canadians are increasingly against the Afghan War. Its kind of similar to the Democrats in the United States reversing stance on the Iraqi War because popular opinion is turning against troops staying in Iraq. Layton is posturing for the next election, by appealing to his core supporters while trying to extend his support base to more moderates that might have a less positive impression of the mission in Afghanistan that might usually vote Liberal, but these more moderate individuals might associate the Liberal Party with the Afghan War because it was a Liberal government that sent troops into Afghanistan in the first place. I hope we do stay in Afghanistan to stablize the South and to give Afghanis a chance to enjoy the freedom that we take for granted.

Regards
CRJ705
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting CRJ705 (Reply 4):
Layton is posturing for the next election, by appealing to his core supporters while trying to extend his support base to more moderates

I can't see how he is possibly expanding his support base. Love the USA or hate them, the Canadian Prime Minister is still going to have to get along with the President of the USA at least to some extent. Does anyone even in the NDP see a slim probablity that Layton will ever be the PM? I doubt it. Would Canada under an NDP government try to move away from trade dependence with the United States? I'm sure the Chinese would more than happy to buy up all the oil and gas production.

Canadians are a practical lot and they don't usually vote for flash and bluster. The NDP is irrelevant to Canadian politics other than possibly shoring up a Liberal minority, which I don't think anyone wants to go through again.

[Edited 2006-09-11 02:20:27]
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:24 am

Sorry to say (actually i'm not) but Canadian politics is all BS...this country is so slow to do anything. The only thing the political parties actually agree on is that we have to be somewhere in the world, but god forbid that costs money!! truth is our soldiers are dying because we just can't cut the red tape quick enough that is stopping our troops having 21st century equipment. If you disagree please direct your comments to General Rick Hillier who is trying his best, more than any politician to protect our troops and allow them to do their jobs and return home alive. Stop the crap people.......we committed, we're there so help us do the mission. I live in Kingston and i've seen the effects of people coming home in bodybags, i've spoke to wives who's husbands are in Kandahar and i've received email off Canadian soldiers telling me what it's like over there. Politicians...put on your flak vests and go see 1st hand what it is you're PREACHING about. We rely way too much on the US for support defensively wise, and the death of a soldier in a friendly fire by a US aircraft only goes to hightlight that....we're so reliant we can't even support ourselves and have to rely on military help from abroad. Politicians should be ashamed of themselves, not spewing rhetoric. I'm not Canadian but i call this my home.....please please please politicians get your heads together and make Canada what it should be, don't waste it into your own personal image which means i's a joke.

Stu

ps.....i thank every single Canadian soldier in the field or wherever, i'd be with you if it weren't for visa restrictions

edited for spelling

[Edited 2006-09-11 02:26:30]
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:35 am

Canadians should be very proud of what their soldiers are doing in the 'Stan. Canada has a small military, yet they've performed like what you'd expect from any of the majors. And they've proven themselves as world class soldiers while operating quite successfully on extremely difficult terrain.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 6):
i thank every single Canadian soldier in the field or wherever, i'd be with you if it weren't for visa restrictions

I understand that feeling, although I have no Visa restrictions. I've wanted to be a police officer my whole life, but recently, I've seriously been considering doing a couple of tours in the Canadian military after I finish off university in spring 2007. My good friend and roomate from first year is in the Army here, and he believes in what we're doing overseas, I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.

I applaud you for that, i really do and if that's the path youchoose to go down i'm behind you 100% and i wish you the very best. If everyone thought like that we'd be a superb county, not just a wonderful one.
I have said that i would join up as this is my adopted country yet my visa restricts me, but as Gen Hiilier says we really should allow immigrants to show their thanks to their adopted countries...i don't care about a fast track to citizenship as i became eligible last year, it's just money in my case. But when i become a Canadian i won't hesitate....as long as i'm not older than 27 by then, lol.

To the Canadian troops...Tim Hortons salutes you
To the Americans.....we're with you
To the Brits....sorry, i swapped sides
To all the other allies......keep on rockin!

Stu
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
greasespot
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:51 am

rememebr these asshols from the NDP are the same ones who had a resolution calling canadian soldiers terrorists.

I am not sure about afganistan...Sometimes i wonder if the bad guys over there are just replacing thier black taliban turbans for "white" ones. Instead of women being shot on camera in the stadium are now jsut being shot out behind the statium with out the camera's.

Having said that we have to try something. The way it was beyond brutal.

My sister is in the military and has been through Afganistan. I am proud of the way that canadian soldiers have stepped up this time.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Basas
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
Exactly correct. Jack Layton a week or two ago wanted to talk with the Taliban, now he wants a full pullout, he's all over the place.



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
It's comments like this that make Jack Layton and the NDP an ever decreasing force in Canadian politics.



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
See you later Jack, you'll never win over the support of many Canadians.

 checkmark  The NDP is a complete joke...the sad thing is many of the Canadian left actually agree with him and think he's great. Then again, this is Canada so its not exactly surprising common sense and intelligent decisions don't play any role.
 
Basas
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.

Good luck! Most of us support you guys!
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
I am not sure about afganistan.

I know exactly what you mean.....sometimes it seems like it could just be a political agenda, just like Iraq could be an agenda to anyone else, but it's always going to be THAT way to someone,isn't it. We belive in the greater good and we believe in a better world and we have to recognize the cost and sacrifice that may bring, your sister definately included. Some things we will never know, we may never understand other cultures that are strict in comparison to ours, but we do recognize the good form the bad and i think that's the only way to look at it. We can't impose our will on others but we can do what we THINK is neccesary to stop the evil in the world. I just hope (and it's probably a foolish hope) that we can all live in peace one day, no religion clashing with another no EGO clasing with anyone else....just an easy calm and a great life for the future generations.

Hope i made some kind of sense

Stoo

this is the edited part.....maybe i'm too optimistic??? Sad

[Edited 2006-09-11 03:00:43]
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 2):
Layton and the NDP should be ashamed of themselves for trying to score political points with the Canadian public on the backs of dead service members.

Simply despicable.



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 3):
This is absolutley shameful, but not surprising coming from Layton

Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

Quoting CRJ705 (Reply 4):
think Layton and his camp wants us to pull out of Afghanistan because they believe that we are just lapdogs to President Bush.

Weel said, that's exactly what we're turning into. As long as Bush Jr. stays in power, then our country is heading the wrong way, the way of USA.
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared?

I'm afraid that ever since Harper gained the top spot, he's put on so much weight he couldn't run to the phone, let alone to the plane from CFB Trenton!
Hate to say it, but does anyone else see that Harper is getting a bit 'bloated'?

Martin...good to see you still remember the site  Smile

Stu 'the real English one'
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 15):
Weel said, that's exactly what we're turning into. As long as Bush Jr. stays in power, then our country is heading the wrong way, the way of USA.

Which way do you suggest Canada go then? I'm open to all opinions, but my personal belief is that lending assistance to the Americans in Afghanistan is the least that Canada can do to show its support for a historical ally and friend. And it is in Canada's interest to have a relativley stable Afghanistan. Iraq is another story altogether and shouldn't be brought up in this context.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause

Thats right, the Taliban: Champions of human dignity and peacemakers of the world. I really don't understand what you are getting at there. Is helping the Afghan government maintain control over its country and eliminating terrorist threats somehow bad?

[Edited 2006-09-11 03:30:51]
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 16):

Which way do you suggest Canada go then? I'm open to all opinions, but my personal belief is that lending assistance to the Americans in Afghanistan is the least that Canada can do to show its support for a historical ally and friend. And it is in Canada's interest to have a relativley stable Afghanistan. Iraq is another story altogether and shouldn't be brought up in this context.

Umm you quoted the wrong person my friend, i think you were quoting martininairyyz....read the above and read what i said, and you'll realize i had nothing to do with what you're replying to.

Stu
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:46 am

Sorry, must have hilighted your reply by mistake when I edited my post. I intended to respond to MartinairYYZ.
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:50 am

That's ok, mistakes happen and it's not a problem  Smile

Stu
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
MattRB
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

Oh, please. Stop drinking the socialist kool-aid, will you? Unjust cause? Hardly. We're there to free a country from repression and help rebuild it. We're there fighting against islamo-fascism. Hardly unjust causes.

I suppose you're also one of those types that believes that Canada wasn't on the Al-Queda radar until we went into Afghanistan?

Pull your head of the sand and take a real hard look at the world around it. It's not a nice place. Sometimes someone has to take a stand against those who would seek to be the bully.

Now, if we were in Iraq, your argument that we're the US' lapdog might hold water. But we're not. We didn't believe in that, so we're not participating.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
ac888yow
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:54 pm

The real title of this thread should be:

Quote:
NDP, get out of Canada: Canadians
 
Dougloid
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 7):
Canadians should be very proud of what their soldiers are doing in the 'Stan. Canada has a small military, yet they've performed like what you'd expect from any of the majors. And they've proven themselves as world class soldiers while operating quite successfully on extremely difficult terrain.

I was reading the Globe and Mail this am and Canada's getting ready to send 15 of their Leopard Is and 120 footsloggers into Afghanistan and you'd think from the comments section that it was The End Of Life As We Know It. Some guy suggested that the cost of fuel and provisioning would strain a military already stretched to the limit.

A lot of Canadians are pretty conflicted about playing on the world stage and their politicians are not above exploiting this-sadly, it always plays pretty well to beat up on the gringos to the south when there's nothing else to talk about in Canada. I mean, you can't bash gays and blacks any more....many do not bother to distinguish between our people (many of whom did not vote for the present administration) and our government.

The opinion of the US is already pretty low in Canada, especially in Quebec, according to a recent CBC poll. The body bags don't help much, especially when it's a friendly fire incident.

On the other hand, if I was Canadian I'd be damned annoyed at the politicans playing to the galleries and not spending enough time on domestic issues.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

So, if you apply that line of thinking Martin, should have the world stood back and let Hitler exterminate *every* Jew on the face of the Earth???

Just because something is unpopular, doesn't mean that we need to fall sides with the yuppie-generation and try to sit around and do the 'talk-diplomacy' option..

It takes more of a leader to stand-tall, against opposition, in the face of adversity, and tackle it all-head on..

We've tried talking with the terrorists for years, and it's quite apparent that you cannot diplomacize a group of people who are living in 100AD.

You know, you better hope that the Jihadists don't decide to start attacking other places in Europe, because if we start applying your line of logic, maybe we'll just sit back and let them wipe out Europe, and we'll just protect our own asses here in North America.

I trust your opinion on this would be different if your family members was blown to bits on September 11'th 2001.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
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yowza
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:38 pm

Jack Layton is a tool and nothing more than a cheap opportunist. He's a waste of space and an embarrassment to this country.

YOWza
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 24):
Jack Layton is a tool and nothing more than a cheap opportunist. He's a waste of space and an embarrassment to this country.

Apparently, he has supporters as well?!

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
A332
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:51 pm

I've always been a fence-sitter with Afghanistan but I believe we are too far entrenched to just pull out and walk away... we're committed and we need to see it through.

However, it would have been nice if our American friends would have kept Afghanistan as their priority and left Iraq out of the equation.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause

Just a point of curiosity... what IS a just cause for Canada to go to war for?

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
not to police the world and then get everyone hating us

I wonder what purpose does Canada's military serve then? Certainly not for defense. Canada faces NO external threat, and if they did, they've got America to the south. So if you're not willing to play on the world stage, you face no external threat... well why even have a military?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 27):
Just a point of curiosity... what IS a just cause for Canada to go to war for?

I would hazard a guess that MOST Canadians were on-side for helping out in Afghanistan, but when it comes to Iraq, I think most Canadians are NOT on side with that war..

I agree with you though... Martin's comments are always inflammatory and hard to believe, so take it with a grain of salt.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
blrsea
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:27 am

I can understand not sending troops to Iraq, but to Afghanistan? The poor country is just getting over the horrible taliban rule, and a NATO troops are all that stand between democracy and taliban rule in Afghanistan again.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 25):

Apparently, he has supporters as well?!

Unfortunatly he does, however, a lot of his supporters are more of the Tree Hugger variety. Jack Layton and the NDP have been huge preponents of environmental reforms and the like. Foreign policy is definatly off the beaten path so to speak for the NDP, as they have rarely been a force in Canadian politics. Now, knowing some tree huggers myself, I'm almost sure that they support Layton's call for a full withdrawl of troops. But in the end, it's just banter on the part of Layton and the NDP, because it's highly unlikely that they will have a role in the near future much beyond supporting a Liberal minority.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
HKA
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:54 am

 
Skookum
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
War on Terror

 rotfl 

Please.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
the last thing we need to do at this point is pull out with our tail between our legs

That's just the type of mentality that kept the U.S. in Vietnam. Brilliant idea.
Good flying
 
Dougloid
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Skookum (Reply 32):
That's just the type of mentality that kept the U.S. in Vietnam. Brilliant idea.

Here's my take on it. We're in the position of a guy, driving the wrong way down a one way street, runs over some bystander and fucks him up bad.

Now. You can't walk away from that, whether you want to or not-at least with your principles intact. You're on the hook for the whole megillah, come what may, no matter what happens and no matter what you may have been thinking at the time. We understand that, for the most part.

If the issue is that various groups of Iraqis now feel entitled to blow each other to hell and gone and we facilitated that by removing whatever passed for a government in the Saddam era, so be it. It's our problem and we're obliged to fix it. There's a civil war on and we have to clean up the mess no matter how many body bags with American boys inside are required.

That's our problem, and not yours, Canada. Until it's your boys, you're a heckler in the stands.

If the issue is that large numbers of jihadis are on the bandwagon now and that Iraq is a training ground for terrorists and a focal point for anti western hatred, well, it's our problem because we started it, but it's your problem because you have to deal with some of the fallout, like it or not, Canada. We all live on the same planet and you're our neighbors. Whether you like being our neighbor or not, you are. If you are enraged about that call Mark Denil. He feels like you and he's a cartographer-maybe he can redo the maps or something.

If the issue is that we went to war for all the wrong reasons and that our government took ill advised actions and that they will be voted out of office in a short time for it, your objections are noted, Canada.

Reconstruction and, for that matter, freedom when you've never had it before is not for the faint of heart, the summer soldier or the sunshine patriot. Unfortunately it is a story that is not making the news these days and it is fraught with problems, not the least of which was that the invasion of Iraq was planned without reference ot securing vital installations.

However, it is happening in places. People can live, work and go about their business in Kurdistan according to their lights, which was not happening under the old regime-what those folks got was poison gas and ethnic cleansing. The majority of Iraqis are Shia, and they can now practice their faith in relative freedom without the bootheel of Saddam and his thugs on their necks. If nothing else, they can now pick up weapons and protect themselves.

Reconstruction continues. It is a work in progress. The country is not secure and the needs of average folks are not being met. There is reason to think that they were not being met under the old regime either.

I'd like for some folks on the ground to tell us what they've seen of reconstruction.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 31):
Read the poll below:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/07092006/....html

That makes perfectly legit sense..

We already know that the US' Foreign Policy is what makes the fundamentalist / Jihadist / Dictatorship(s) fight back against the Western world. That's nothing new.

Helping people to become free from brutal dictators is a noble thing to do. Whether or not you believe that it's all over Oil or US interests, the fact that most of the nations who are at 'war' with the US happen to be run by religious zealots who would be the people MOST affected by an uprising by their own people is the reason why we're (Western Civilization) at war with them!

Nothing new on that poll.

Quoting Skookum (Reply 32):
That's just the type of mentality that kept the U.S. in Vietnam. Brilliant idea.

So, how do you feel about Germany during the 40's? Do you think we did the right thing by helping Israel?

World War II wasn't a quick war, you know.

You can't equate every battle we have to Vietnam.

1011yyz
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HKA
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 34):
Helping people to become free from brutal dictators is a noble thing to do. Whether or not you believe that it's all over Oil or US interests, the fact that most of the nations who are at 'war' with the US happen to be run by religious zealots who would be the people MOST affected by an uprising by their own people is the reason why we're (Western Civilization) at war with them!

Noble thing, yes. But is that the reason why US invaded Iraq. I didn't know US was so nice as to spend $500 billion, sacrifice 2500 soldiers to free the Iraqi people.100,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion and US is reponsible for this directly and indirectly.

There are many tyrants out there especially in Africa, maybe US should invade those countries too but would she ??

The real terrorists in this world are the greedy capitalists.
 
blrsea
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:49 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 35):
There are many tyrants out there especially in Africa, maybe US should invade those countries too but would she ??

Pakistan is one of these tyrants that should be invaded and liberated, and the Taliban/OBL/Afghanistan problem will be solved for ever, and Canada can pull back from Afghanistan  Smile
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 35):
Noble thing, yes. But is that the reason why US invaded Iraq. I didn't know US was so nice as to spend $500 billion, sacrifice 2500 soldiers to free the Iraqi people.100,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion and US is reponsible for this directly and indirectly.

Don't try to change the subject. We are talking about Canadian involvement in Afghanistan. We are talking about a mission to stabilize a country that was wracked by a terrorist pandering theocracy.

Quoting HKA (Reply 35):
The real terrorists in this world are the greedy capitalists.

To quote a line from one of my favourite Tom Clancy movies: "the world's grey, Jack" . Sure, the capitalists aren't perfect but there are far worse and no one can claim to be 100% clean or ethical. What do you suggest we do about them, other than spouting rhetoric?
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 35):
But is that the reason why US invaded Iraq. I didn't know US was so nice as to spend $500 billion, sacrifice 2500 soldiers to free the Iraqi people.100,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion and US is reponsible for this directly and indirectly.

Subject change. Irrelevant.

Canada's Military is NOT involved in Iraq in any large numbers.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 37):
Don't try to change the subject. We are talking about Canadian involvement in Afghanistan. We are talking about a mission to stabilize a country that was wracked by a terrorist pandering theocracy

Thank you.

Whenever you get into a conversation with people who are Anti-Canadian involvement in any kind of American offensive, they can't argue their point.

I wonder how these people would feel IF the Canadian Gov't had taken the lead, and lead the Offensive into Iraq?????.. What would have they said then..? (I know, theoretical, and highly unlikely, yet.. I still wonder)

That's why I throw out the Israel / Germany argument. Simple question. Should have we been involved during THAT war? Yes or No. Simple answer.

1011yyz
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HKA
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 36):
Pakistan is one of these tyrants that should be invaded and liberated, and the Taliban/OBL/Afghanistan problem will be solved for ever, and Canada can pull back from Afghanistan

I was talking of Canada and US in Afghanistan but you are bringing regional conflict matters in discussion.

Define tyrancy. Is there no tyrancy in India ? What India has done in Sri Lanka and the Golden Temple of Sikhs is no less than tyrancy.

If you are talking in such a tone then let me propose the following:

The US should invade India to liberate Kashmir because India has ignored the UN resolutions and stop Indian sponsored terrorism in Sri Lanka.
 
HKA
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 36):
Pakistan is one of these tyrants that should be invaded and liberated, and the Taliban/OBL/Afghanistan problem will be solved for ever, and Canada can pull back from Afghanistan

I was talking of Canada and US in Afghanistan but you are bringing regional conflict matters in discussion.

Define tyrancy. Is there no tyrancy in India ? What India has done in Sri Lanka and the Golden Temple of Sikhs is no less than tyrancy.

If you are talking in such a tone then let me propose the following:

The US should invade India to liberate Kashmir and stop Indian sponsored terrorism in Sri Lanka.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
rememebr these asshols from the NDP are the same ones who had a resolution calling canadian soldiers terrorists.

You've got to be kidding? No joke? They actually did THAT?

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause

What is unjust about going after the goons who perpertrated 9/11, and the former goon government that sheltered them? That's what Afghanistan is about-if you've been listening to the news today, and seeing the anniversary of 9/11.

I agree with UH60 in asking what do you think is a just cause for Canada to fight in?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ac888yow
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
You've got to be kidding? No joke? They actually did THAT?

Yes. Pretty despicable isn't it?

The full article can be read here, but the main quote is that Canadian soldiers have been

Quote:
acting like terrorists, destroying communities, killing and maiming innocent people
 
Dougloid
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting AC888YOW (Reply 42):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
You've got to be kidding? No joke? They actually did THAT?

Yes. Pretty despicable isn't it?

The full article can be read here, but the main quote is that Canadian soldiers have been

At least we don't have to put up with those fucking morons down here LOL they hate the lower 48 so much we don't have to worry about them dirtying their petticoats in Detroit. The world will never be short of idiots.

If you'd like to read a good article, read The West's Choice: Courage or Collapse by Robert Sibley, senior editor.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...f2c-43a1-988f-51ffead2130b&k=90111
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
blrsea
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 40):
f you are talking in such a tone then let me propose the following:

The US should invade India to liberate Kashmir and stop Indian sponsored terrorism in Sri Lanka.

That shows your knowledge of current world events !! Please read up on the web again. And for your information, the UN resolutions are non-binding.

But the fact that Pakistan is the one still nurturing the taliban. And the taliban offered protection and logistics to the al-qaida including OBL. The 9/11 perpetrators hatched their plan and commited the crime of the century with the help of al-qaida and taliban in Afghanistan. If Canada and other NATO forces pull out of Afghanistan, it will allow taliban to come back to power with the aid of Pakistan. And who is to say that another 9/11 won't occur again in that case? It was US last time, it can be another country the next time. Better that the civilized countries stick together and kill as many taliban forces as possible and decapitate it.
 
Lutenist
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting AC888YOW (Reply 42):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
You've got to be kidding? No joke? They actually did THAT?

Yes. Pretty despicable isn't it?

The full article can be read here, but the main quote is that Canadian soldiers have been

Quote:
acting like terrorists, destroying communities, killing and maiming innocent people

I don't vote NDP, but I have to say that it's unfair to brand the NDP generally as a party accusing CDN soldiers of terrorism. What the article appears to say is that certain elements within the NDP--specifically, the Nanaimo-Cowichan riding association in British Columbia--would like to incorporate such an accusation into a party resolution. According to the article, important mainstream party members--e.g., Jack Layton, Karl Belanger, and Peter Stoffer--have distanced themselves from such proposals.

Sure there are loonies within the NDP fold. You could say that about any party that harbors non-centrist elements. It would be just as unfair to brand the NDP as a collection merely of people who believe Canada perpetuates terrorism as it would to brand the GOP as an incorrigible bunch of racists just because David Duke and his cronies once managed to capture its spotlight.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 37):
"the world's grey, Jack" .

Indeed it is. As with all things, there are faults and virtues on both sides of the argument.
 
HKA
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:50 am

I don't support the Taliban. The Taliban are themselves ignorant of the true Islamic teachings. But using force in Afghanistan and border areas will produce no results. Five years on, they haven't caught OBL or Omar and I bet you five years from now, it will be the same situation as is now.

The west natured taliban/mujahedin to fight the Russians for years and all of a sudden the west wants them to nice guys.

It is much easier to suggest them to close the madrassas than actually implimenting it. 30+ years of was has left behind very desperate people and thousands of orphans who depend on these madrassas for thier food & lodging.

Fighting there is going to be very difficult because of:
1. Very harsh terrain
2. People have become very stubborn because of continuous wars.
3. No one has ever won a war in this region.

Harper has to sell his oil and lumber to US and thus has no choice other than to succumb to GWB pressure.
 
blrsea
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:01 am

CNN Anderson Cooper transcripts of Sept 11 from Afghanistan

Quote:
Aired September 11, 2006 - 22:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. We are live, coming to you from eastern Afghanistan, a forward operating base. It was here, in Afghanistan, that the first American shots were fired in the war on terror. And now the last shots have yet to be fired.



Quote:
COOPER: We should also point out that a lot of the -- the young men in the 10th Mountain Division who are here say they joined the Army after 9/11. What they saw on that day, they will never forget. And it really motivates them, as they go out on missions every day here.

And I can't stress enough, while there's a lot of debate about the war in Iraq, and whether that is or should be a central front in the war on terror, there's little debate about what is happening here now, literally all around us on the ground. This is ground zero for the war on terror here in Afghanistan.

As we have said, the enemy is -- is multi -- there's many different kinds of enemy out there. There's Taliban. There's al Qaeda, and there's simple criminals out there as well.

Another big problem, and one of the reasons that we have come here, is that Pakistan has signed a cease-fire deal with Taliban militants on the Pakistan side of the border. Now, intelligence sources say that, essentially, what that means is that the Pakistan soldiers have given up checkpoints, handed over checkpoints to Taliban militants, gone back to their barracks.

And critics will say, this is going to allow Taliban militants, this is going to allow al Qaeda fighters to simply to cross, increasingly cross, over the border. And they worry there's going to be a big uptick in the fighting here. They are already seeing an uptick over the last month or so
.



Quote:
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Watch as this man threatens our cameraman. He and his friends don't want to be filmed. It's un-Islamic, they say. Off camera, they describe themselves as Afghan Taliban. But these streets they brazenly stroll are not in Afghanistan. This is Quetta, a major Pakistani city, close to the Afghan border. Exactly what's happening here is explained to me by Pakistani journalist Amir Mir.

AMIR MIR, PAKISTANI JOURNALIST: Pakistan is essentially for the Taliban. Almost the entire leadership of Taliban is hiding in Quetta.

ROBERTSON (on camera): In Pakistan.

In Afghanistan, American intelligence officials say the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, is also living in Quetta. In London, senior British government officials say they are angry Pakistan has not rounded up the Taliban leadership, who they say are planning and plotting and getting stronger from the safety of Pakistan.

(voice-over): Tensions are mounting. The British and American death toll at the hands of the Taliban is rocketing.
Talking to Pakistani officials, I realize nothing incenses them more than insinuations they turn a blind eye to the very men who kill their coalition partners across the border.



Quote:
COOPER: Joined right now by CNN's Nic Robertson, also CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, who is also the author of the book "The Osama bin Laden I Know," an oral history of Osama bin Laden. Peter also actually met Osama bin Laden back in the late '90s.

Nic, I mean, you were traveling in Pakistan. How is it possible that this cease-fire will actually work to benefit the war on terror, I mean, to actually benefit troops fighting on the ground here?

ROBERTSON: It's only going to work if the Pakistani troops on the border just a few miles away actually have support of the local communities.

And it was very difficult for us to gauge that when we were there. It will only work in that context, because the local communities are really the policemen all around. They're the ones that are going to turn in the bad guys. The bad guys live among them. Some of them are the bad guys. That's the only way it's going to work.

So, the -- whatever the Pakistan military is doing, as long as those fighters can get across the border with weapons, then these troops right here are going to be in danger.

COOPER: Peter, the Taliban, no doubt about it, has had a resurgence. They're on the rise. They're not yet militarily perhaps threatening the government of Hamid Karzai.

How is possible that the Taliban has come back five years after 9/11?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I think a combination of factors -- obviously, profiting from the drug trade, a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the Karzai government, certain amount of dissatisfaction with reconstruction efforts.

COOPER: The drug trade here, the poppy harvest this past year is up 49 percent over the last year.

BERGEN: Yes.

COOPER: So, there's billions of dollars being made.

BERGEN: Ninety-two percent of the world's heroin comes from here. So, it's...

COOPER: Unbelievable.

BERGEN: And, finally, I think, you know, safe refuge in Pakistan just across the border from where we're standing. I mean, that's where the top Taliban leadership is. According to multiple U.S. military officials, that's where they're regrouping and rearming.

COOPER: It's interesting, Nic. I mean, we have all talked to intelligence sources, to U.S. military officials. They're very loathe publicly to criticize Pakistan, for obvious political reasons.

ROBERTSON: They need the support of Pakistan in this.

And if they criticize Pakistan, then President Musharraf, president of Pakistan, is going to be in a very difficult position with his people. The notion that, if the United States criticizes him, then that will allow the Islamists in his country to perhaps get more support, perhaps remove him. And, if they come to power, then forget the kind of cooperation you're getting right now. So, it's -- it's perhaps the lesser of two evils, if you will.

COOPER: Privately, though, Peter, what are you hearing from intelligence sources, from U.S. military officials?

BERGEN: Well, they -- I mean, privately, they say Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, is living in Quetta, a major city in Pakistan.

COOPER: Which is incredible. I mean, this is a man who has a bounty on his head, who -- it's incredible that he could be living in a major city like Quetta.

BERGEN: And they say the main leadership of the Taliban is in Quetta. And the secondary leadership is in Peshawar, another major Pakistani city. So, I think...

COOPER: And running -- running operations from the Pakistan cities here in eastern Afghanistan.

BERGEN: Some of these leaders never come into Afghanistan. They just stay in Pakistan.

I mean, the -- the guy who runs Zabul Province, which is a major province in the south, for the Taliban lives in Pakistan, according to U.S. military sources, never crosses the border
.
 
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 40):
stop Indian sponsored terrorism in Sri Lanka

Just curious which side India allegedly sponsors in Sri Lanka? Big grin

Quoting HKA (Reply 39):
What India has done in Sri Lanka and the Golden Temple of Sikhs is no less than tyrancy.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that entire Khalistani terrorist movement was largely funded out of Canada with the tacit approval of CSIS - making Canada a de-facto state sponsor of terrorism. It was only after the AI 182 bombing that the Canadians realised just what a hornet's nest existed in their own backyard. For a Canadian to criticize Operation Blue Star is hypocritical in the extreme.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP

Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting HKA (Reply 46):
The west natured taliban/mujahedin to fight the Russians for years and all of a sudden the west wants them to nice guys.

And it's our fault that THEY chose to strike / harbour the terrorist that purpotrated the 9/11 attacks?

The strife and hardships the Taliban were putting on Afghanistan NEEDED to end.. THAT is why we are there..

Quoting HKA (Reply 46):
Harper has to sell his oil and lumber to US and thus has no choice other than to succumb to GWB pressure.

Do you have ANY idea of worldwide politics at all??

First off, that's the same lame excuse everyone anti-conservative have given in most arguments on this website, and IRL (In real life)..

Secondly.. they NEED our oil.. If they truly need our oil as much as we are led to belief, they WHY would our government (Harper) pander to him?? We have the upper hand!

I have NOT seen Harper pander to the US ONCE during his tenure. As a matter of fact, not too long ago, he came right out and told them on a news conference (for lack of not having the exact terminology) that 'we are a soverign nation, and the US doesn't tell us how to govern our country'.

*That* my friend, is NOT succumbing to US pressure.

The argument is weak. There is no Canada bowing to US pressure right now!

1011yyz
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