rjpieces
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One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:49 am

Interesting article....

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...dcolumnists_emilio_karim_dabul.htm

September 12, 2006 -- WELL, here it is, five years late, but here just the same: an apology from an Arab-American for 9/11. No, I didn't help organize the killers or contribute in any way to their terrible cause. However, I was one of millions of Arab-Americans who did the unspeakable on 9/11: nothing.

Well, I'm sick of saying the truth only in private - that Arabs around the world, including Arab-Americans like myself, need to start holding our own culture accountable for the insane, violent actions that our extremists have perpetrated on the world at large.

The men who killed 3,000 of our citizens on 9/11 in all likelihood died saying prayers to Allah, and that by itself is one of the most horrific things to me about that day.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:19 am

Yeah, nice way to put up one idiot's article in a Murdoch Rag that does nothing but insult millions of people.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
Yeah, nice way to put up one idiot's article in a Murdoch Rag that does nothing but insult millions of people.

Hmmmm, this doesn't appear to be an insult to me, rather a call to action - one that has been IMO thus far quite noticably absent - for Muslims to get their own house in order . . .

Seems like a rather smart idea.

""Five years after that awful day, it's time for all Arab-Americans, and Arabs around the world, to protest against Islamic fascism, to raise our voices - and, where necessary, our arms - against these tyrants until their plague of terror has been driven from the face of the earth forever.""
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
IFEMaster
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Seems like a rather smart idea.

I'm with ANC on this. I think this guy has his head screwed on and is taking what responsibility is due to be taken by his culture/race/whatever you want to call it. I just got done reading a fantastic book - "Londonistan" by Melanie Phillips - and this guys response is exactly what I would hope to see on a global scale: those who are part of the religion and race that the terrorists claim allegiance with rising up to oust them from their society.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Hmmmm, this doesn't appear to be an insult to me, rather a call to action - one that has been IMO thus far quite noticably absent - for Muslims to get their own house in order . . .

Read some of the rest of the thread, where he calls people, including George Bush, apologists for a terrorist religion
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Read some of the rest of the thread, where he calls people, including George Bush, apologists for a terrorist religion

I read the whole article . . .

Bush has been called a hell of a lot worse, right here on this site . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
pacificjourney
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
one that has been IMO thus far quite noticably absent

15406 posts and your opinions don't improve. As N1120A points out you should really read the whole thing before jumping on the bandwagon. Who needs conspiracy theories with this guy around ?

Silly and pointless pandering to the mob, nothing more.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Bush has been called a hell of a lot worse, right here on this site . . .

Bush IS a hell of a lot worse, but on this subject, Bush's comments were correct and this a'hole is completely off base.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Falcon84
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
Yeah, nice way to put up one idiot's article in a Murdoch Rag that does nothing but insult millions of people.

Seems to me the only one's being insulted were the creep Islamofascists, and those who apologize and defend the maround the world. You have a problem with THAT?

This is what Arabs and Muslims around the world should have said on Sept 12th, 2001. But it's better late than never, at least from one man who has a conscience about his faith and his race, and doesn't like this crap being done "in his name".

I think you need to get your prioirities straight here, dude.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ba757
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:45 am

Interesting that this comes from a Westernised Arab, but what about the millions (billions?) in the Middle East and Asia - do they have the same attitude?
Do the terrorist organisations manage to brainwash and get people to believe their propaganda against the west?

I don't know the answers, but it is worth remembering there are many people in these countries that don't see and hear what we do, that have a completely different opinion.
 
Twistedwhisper
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:52 am

Meanwhile, the people in Chile are still waiting for an US apology for 9/11....1973.
Read between the lines.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):
I think this guy has his head screwed on and is taking what responsibility is due to be taken by his culture/race/whatever you want to call it

How can anyone issue an apology on behalf of a culture or race ? What a ridiculous notion. The only people who could ever apologise for 9/11 are the ones that organised it and carried it out. EVERYONE else, and that does mean EVERYONE, is an innocent bystander. Assigning collective guilt is one step away from applying collective punishment, and that's just plain wrong.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
but on this subject, Bush's comments were correct and this a'hole is completely off base.

His quote from the article: ""The apologists (including President Bush) tried to reassure us that 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam, but was a twisting of a great and noble religion. ""

In this light, I believe Bush is correct. These extremists do not represent Islam, rather a bastardized sect with some obviously warped beliefs and teachings.

And continuing: ""With all due respect, read the Koran, Mr. President. There's enough there for someone of extreme tendencies to find their way to a global jihad. ""

Here I think the author missed the mark completely. One could read the Bible and find just enough wiggle room for a Christian Crusade - oh, wait . . . we did that already . . .

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 6):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
one that has been IMO thus far quite noticably absent

15406 posts and your opinions don't improve.

Opinion noted and summarily dismissed . . . thanks for playing though.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting TWISTEDWHISPER (Reply 10):

1. Don't tell me you're comparing the two.

2. If you want to talk about that subject, start your own thread, TW.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
holding our own culture accountable

rubbish, Hitler did what he did IN SPITE of German culture, PolPot did what he did IN SPITE of Cambodian culture, Stalin did what he did IN SPITE of Russian culture. To excuse crimes by "culture" or "tradition" is supplying the evildoers a kind of help, a kind of "well they were not really guilty", which very simply is wrong. To realize that a criminal, a murderer or whatever, has/had this or that or something else in common with you, does NOT change anything at all, it is irrelevant. If you have known such a person and explained something to that person WITHOUT knowledge of his later deed, then you feel bad but it is NOT really your fault. And to think that he or any of the others could have done anything sensible on that day just is illusion. -- At the other hand, just as an Algerian editor of a Paris based magazine wrote in late October 01, "we all in a way have become culprits and accomplices overnight", his conclusion however was that the only thing to be done was to upgrade the fight against terrorism.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:15 am

On 9/11 every Arab leader from Saddam to Gaddafi publicly condemned the events of that day. The article refers to 9/11 so I refer exclusively to that day, and that day alone. The idea that an entire race of people are responsible for the actions of a minority is unjustified. The Arabs, like any other race, do not think and act as a unified group. Look at the last 40 years - half of the countries have either had wars with each other, civil wars, or at least border skirmishes. Long beards and covered faces in Tunisia will attract much more attention than jeans or t-shirts will. It's the opposite in Saudi. It is also not true that all Arabs pass their days plotting how Israel could wiped off the face of the earth. Privately they know perfectly well that Israel isn't going anywhere, and in general have little interest in issues like Iraq or the Palestinians, as long as the "trouble" stays outside their borders.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Seems like a rather smart idea.

""Five years after that awful day, it's time for all Arab-Americans, and Arabs around the world, to protest against Islamic fascism, to raise our voices - and, where necessary, our arms - against these tyrants until their plague of terror has been driven from the face of the earth forever.""

-
unfortunately not. Exactly the point that he included a quotation of the glorious man in the White House proves that it rather is a desparate attempt to appease and to please the NON-Arab US-Americans. AND it unfortunately shows that the man is out of touch, as he apparently has NOT realized that much of the Arab World started to struggle against terrorism / terrorists in the 1980ies, so that a "call to arms" in 2006 is a bit late. It is breaking open doors.

[Edited 2006-09-13 22:18:40]
 
N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Seems to me the only one's being insulted were the creep Islamofascists, and those who apologize and defend the maround the world.

Again, read the whole thing.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
This is what Arabs and Muslims around the world should have said on Sept 12th, 2001.

And they did. I guess you weren't listening, as usual

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
I think you need to get your prioirities straight here, dude.

Don't tell me where my priorities need to be until you can actually take your blinders off

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
His quote from the article: ""The apologists (including President Bush) tried to reassure us that 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam, but was a twisting of a great and noble religion. ""

In this light, I believe Bush is correct. These extremists do not represent Islam, rather a bastardized sect with some obviously warped beliefs and teachings.

And continuing: ""With all due respect, read the Koran, Mr. President. There's enough there for someone of extreme tendencies to find their way to a global jihad. ""

Here I think the author missed the mark completely. One could read the Bible and find just enough wiggle room for a Christian Crusade - oh, wait . . . we did that already . . .

See what I am talking about. Someone finally found it, and it was the person I expected too
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airxliban
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:26 am

In and of itself, this article has a lot of caliber to it.

As far as his assessment of the religion - well I'm not in a position to judge Islam nor do I want to. But I do know that the Holy Book can be vague, self contradicting, and highly dependent on context and my understanding is that that makes it possible to use it to justify certain things - at least in ones own mind.

Take that and add the fact that in the minds of many Musilms, America is and has been disrespecting the Arab world in various ways for decades - and it's not too difficult to see where terrorism breeds from. Is it justified? Not even on a cold day in hell. But is it understandable given the circumstances? Yes.

As far as this guy is concerned, should he apologise for Arabs? No - we are all accountable for our own actions. Should he look at his culture and his religion with a critical eye, adopting what he thinks works and rejecting what he thinks doesn't? Yes. As far as chalking it up to "our extremeists" and "our culture"? Well - that's up to your own interpretation. Being Lebanese and Christian, I don't feel as though Mohammad Atta or whoever has anything to do with my culture. So should we hold our culture accountable for the acts of our extremeists? That's something I'm not sure about. Governments and figure heads are responsible, at the very least to a certain degree, but I don't believe that its possible to classify one culture across the expanse of the Arab world from Morocco to Oman, nor do I believe that culture itself is responsible for terrorism.

This guy makes some good points, but my only problem with what he has said is that we ought to apply the same unbiased mindset to everything that comes our way. To have had no reaction to the September 11 attacks is bad enough - but on the other hand to act as though the dying of other innocent people across the world in greater numbers is nothing compared to 9/11 is even more dangerous in my opinion. I think for the point is that we have to treat everything using the same objective and unbiased criteria and look at all sides of the argument coming out strongly in support of one or the other. Easier said than done, of course.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):
I just got done reading a fantastic book - "Londonistan" by Melanie Phillips - and this guys response is exactly what I would hope to see on a global scale: those who are part of the religion and race that the terrorists claim allegiance with rising up to oust them from their society.

I've read it too and it scared the shit out of me, because I know that is mostly correct. Even if only half of what Melanie Phillips said is correct - we've got a lot to worry about. More than anything though she took the words out of my mouth with her description of how muslims in the UK are creating a state within a state.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
qr332
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:29 am

Why isn't it surprising that RJ is reporting on yet another idiot trying to kiss ass who doesn't know what hes talking about?

First of all, here is something you might find shocking, but just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it didn't happen!

Second all, here is another shocking thing: 1.4 billion Muslims don't owe anyone an apology. I owe you guys an apology just about as much as you me an apology for Iraq, which is very little considering i'm not Iraqi. America never apologised to Iran for doing what it did to it, the British never apologised the Palestinians for giving their land away, and in light of this, I really don't believe we should have double standards held up against us which say that WE have to apologise for something that 12 people we had absolutley no link to other than religion did, yet you guys can shatter and destroy an entire nation and not have to say a word.

Third of all, even Hamas and Hezbollah condemned 9/11, and when Zawahiri offered to help Hamas, Hamas replied by telling him to shut up and keep his filthy hands away from Palestinian matters. Fact is, even the extremists see Al Qaeda as shitfaces, and the fact that this doesn't get reported to you does not mean anything.

Finally, ANC, about finding verses in the Quran to support such action... I could go and take things out of context from ANY book in the world and twist it to my needs.I could take verses out of the Quran that would give off the impression that I don't need to pray, it is all about context. It is just like the infamous "kill the infidels where you find them" verse, which is very widely publicised. People, though, never know that just before that verse it says "If you are attacked by them", and is followed by how civilians must not be harmed.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
adh214
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:48 am

This really gets to a more nuanced response to 9/11 than Bush's "Go get 'em"
schtick. True the parties responsible for organizing and financing 9/11 must be found and punished. This about 100 people or less but what about the other billion Muslims. The US needs to actively engage with the Muslim world instead of invading it. There is an excellent article in editorial in Newsweek about a different approach and what could have been....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14753927/site/newsweek/

Andrew
 
777236ER
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:59 am

What nonsense is this?

The guy is an Arab, but he never mentions being a Muslim. The only apparent link with the September 11th bombers is the colour of his skin. We don't expect 'Asians' to apologise for Pearl Harbour, or for 'whites' to apologise for Hiroshima. Why should apologies from Arabs completely removed from the attacks be required?

[Edited 2006-09-13 22:59:14]
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Superfly
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
The guy is an Arab, but he never mentions being a Muslim. The only apparent link with the September 11th bombers is the colour of his skin. We don't expect 'Asians' to apologise for Pearl Harbour, or for 'whites' to apologise for Hiroshima. Why should apologies from Arabs completely removed from the attacks be required?

 checkmark 



RJpieces:
I'd expect you of all people here to be able to distinguish the diference between a Arab and Muslim. Arab is ethnicity, Muslim is a religion.
Besides, this article is from a joke news source anyway.

Quoting TWISTEDWHISPER (Reply 10):
Meanwhile, the people in Chile are still waiting for an US apology for 9/11....1973.

 checkmark 
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ANCFlyer
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
AND it unfortunately shows that the man is out of touch, as he apparently has NOT realized that much of the Arab World started to struggle against terrorism / terrorists in the 1980ies, so that a "call to arms" in 2006 is a bit late. It is breaking open doors.

I see no evidence of that. Other than the condemnation issued after terrorist attacks are undertaken. Is the Arab world jailing the suspected terrorists? Are they prosecuting any of them . . . say for example, the burners of the Embassies after the quite recent Cartoon debacle?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
Finally, ANC, about finding verses in the Quran to support such action... I could go and take things out of context from ANY book in the world and twist it to my needs

Gee, didn't I say that right here QR???

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Here I think the author missed the mark completely. One could read the Bible and find just enough wiggle room for a Christian Crusade - oh, wait . . . we did that already . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
rolfen
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:34 am

Muslims will take no lessons from any outsiders... or even any non-muslims.
So it has to be arab muslims who work out this extremism problem, indeed.
rolf
 
AGM100
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 24):
So it has to be arab muslims who work out this extremism problem, indeed.

Well now would be a good time to start Rolfen. Last night watching CNN from Afghanistan/Iraq I was struck by the scenes of poverty and infastructure so outdated its pathetic.

The Muslim world can sure unite against us the Infidels , but they sure can not unite and share the wealth. The leaders of the "Muslim world" have let their people down and have created this jealousy and hatred of everyone else.

IMO the Article is right on , as an American Citizen it is exactly what the guy should be saying.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AA777
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:32 am

RJ, it is terribly presumtuous and insulting that you believe that all Muslims/Arabs owe the US an apology for what happened on 9/11. It shows how you love to generalize and point fingers at an entire massive group of people.

I had nothing to do with 9/11. I owe no apologies. Likewise, 99.9999999999999........... percent of people in the Middle East had nothing to do with 9/11. It was orchestrated by a few dozen people. Where do you get the nerve and gall to say that all Arabs should apologize?

I blamed the Israeli government for the deaths of 900+ Lebanese in the summer conflict, after all, it was their bombs and bullets that killed them. However, I dont expect an apology from ALL Israelis or all Jews who support Israel, or all PEOPLE who support Israel. The ones with blood on their hands are few and, (I dont even really blame the soldiers, because they essentially have no choice) and these few are ultimately responsible, IMO.

The same concept applies for 9/11. You cannot blame everyone. It is EXACTLY your kind of thinking that creates hateful blanket statements that generate terrorism in the first place. Its the same thing. Directed in the opposite direction.

-AA777
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Is the Arab world jailing the suspected terrorists? Are they prosecuting any of them . . . say for example, the burners of the Embassies after the quite recent Cartoon debacle?

the Arab World for years has brought terrorists to court and into prison. There between 1980 and now were dozens of executions of terrorists in Egypt and Algeria. Syria used artillery and airforce against fundamentalist extremists in the 80ies and prosecutes such folks most thoroughly. In Algeria, the armed forces even fairly often were involved in hunting down terrorists. The present King of Jordan was, before becoming King, the head of the anti-terror force of the Kingdom. In Egypt, after recent terror attacks on the Sina'i, there were extensive police actions with dozens of arrests and judicial prosecution. Morocco and Tunisia are also very harsh in acting against terrorists. Just back to the example of Egypt. Those sentenced to death usually were executed in the early morning after the verdict. And nobody has ever seen those involved in the embassies-burning in Damascus again, and nobody ever will. I don't know whether they just got the usual treatment by the Syrian Mukhaberat with indefinite jailing, or worse. Saudi Arabia has arrested many terrorists over recent years. And the fate of whomever gets arrested in the KSA charged with murder is clear, and needs no discussion. No, there is a reason why so many such terrorists hide in the West.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):

Thanks for that . . . you're right on, as my thinking was rather limited in scope to most of the present (last 5 years) terrorist activties.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
No, there is a reason why so many such terrorists hide in the West.

And if the 'west' summarily executed these extremist assholes as was done in Egypt? Could you imagine the outcry?! I personally think that's a great idea, but the entire world would simply shite themselves.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
Afghanistan/Iraq

while there most certainly are poor and backward areas existing in Iraq, Iraq of course is ways ahead of Afghanistan, in regard to infrastructure, education and economy

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25):
The leaders of the "Muslim world" have let their people down

this is rubbish. You canNOT generalize in such a way. Progress in most Muslim countries over past decades in reality has been remarkable. What has been achieved, for instance in the Arab World, in regard to infrastructure, education, health, technology and economy in general is quite remarkable. Reporters of course are good in driving past modern suburbs, industries, traffic centres and targetting some ugly slum and then give comments standing in front of some misery in some place.
 
Superfly
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 26):
RJ, it is terribly presumtuous and insulting that you believe that all Muslims/Arabs owe the US an apology for what happened on 9/11. It shows how you love to generalize and point fingers at an entire massive group of people.

I had nothing to do with 9/11. I owe no apologies. Likewise, 99.9999999999999........... percent of people in the Middle East had nothing to do with 9/11. It was orchestrated by a few dozen people. Where do you get the nerve and gall to say that all Arabs should apologize?

I blamed the Israeli government for the deaths of 900+ Lebanese in the summer conflict, after all, it was their bombs and bullets that killed them. However, I dont expect an apology from ALL Israelis or all Jews who support Israel, or all PEOPLE who support Israel. The ones with blood on their hands are few and, (I dont even really blame the soldiers, because they essentially have no choice) and these few are ultimately responsible, IMO.

The same concept applies for 9/11. You cannot blame everyone. It is EXACTLY your kind of thinking that creates hateful blanket statements that generate terrorism in the first place. Its the same thing. Directed in the opposite direction.

 checkmark 

You are 100% spot on!  yes 
It's too bad that almost all elected officials in Washington (in both parties) feel the way RJpieces presented this thread.  Sad
Bring back the Concorde
 
AGM100
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
this is rubbish. You canNOT generalize in such a way

Agreed, maybe I was generalizing somewhat. But these areas of despair combined with the idea that Islam is the only religion and all others are subhuman creates a very volatile situation. The regional leaders have not done very well at addressing this problem. Instead they suppressed it by force ,ignored it, or passivised it by blaming the infidels and Jews thus making the situation worse and freeing themselves of the responsibility.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 31):
But these areas of despair combined with the idea that Islam is the only religion and all others are subhuman creates a very volatile situation. The regional leaders have not done very well at addressing this problem. Instead they suppressed it by force ,ignored it, or passivised it by blaming the infidels

> few people in the Arab World feel that Islam is the only religion, and/or the thing about "subhuman" ... -- and that would be prohibited by the Koran where both Christians and Jews are "the people of the book" and practically equal to Muslims. That "volatile" situation simply does NOT exist. And you forget the Christian minorities, for instance more than 10 mio. Coptic Egyptians, etc. The "regional leaders" could NOT address a non-existing problem. And virtually none of the leaders "blamed the infidels". In the Arab World, the people most aggressive in such things, the Saudis, may have some weird ideas, but not even they do "blame the infidels".
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Seems to me the only one's being insulted were the creep Islamofascists, and those who apologize and defend the maround the world. You have a problem with THAT?

This is what Arabs and Muslims around the world should have said on Sept 12th, 2001. But it's better late than never, at least from one man who has a conscience about his faith and his race, and doesn't like this crap being done "in his name".

I think you need to get your prioirities straight here, dude.

Falcon and I agree?  Wow!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Read some of the rest of the thread, where he calls people, including George Bush, apologists for a terrorist religion

Unfortunately, George Bush is in a position where he was to be "politcally correct". I interpret it as this guy believes Bush should have criticized the Islam religion as a whole on its faults, but common sense tells you that iff George Bush had gotten up there and said what this guy said in the article, A) the politcally correct crowd in America would be up in arms and B) so would most of the Arab culture, which wasn't quite what we needed on Sept. 12th, 2001.
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cairo
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:14 pm

One Arab's apology appearing in a tabloid is interesting if you're pro-Israel and against Arabs and Muslims.

A far more significant apology is the sentiment of serious Jews in regards to Israel. I wonder why you didn't mention the 10 000 Orthodox Jews potesting Israel last year in, of all places, New York City? Isn't this a more significant 'apology' then the words of one Arab in a pro-Israeli (Murdoch) publication?

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/April2805nyc.cfm

Why would Jews protest Israel in such large numbers?
...we are here to declare that the Israeli government itself and the Zionist ideology which it incarnates are in no way legitimate representatives of the Jewish people, or of the Torah faith, which is the sole basis of our very existence.

Q: But the state has survived, hasn't it?

A. It is farcical to call a government that has subjected its citizens to five wars and endless suffering as a desirable "survival". How much blood must be shed till Jewry shakes off the shackles of world Zionism's domination and begins to rethink this ideology's root assumptions?
*

To paraphrase the Arab who wrote the article RJ quotes, The men who killed 3,000 Palestinians since 2000 in all likelihood killed saying prayers to a Jewish God, and that by itself is one of the most horrific things about Israel to this day.

If you are printing apologies, it is only fair to print apologies from both perspectives to this "Islamic Terrorism" issue that dominates your mind.

Cairo
*
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/April2905QA.cfm

[Edited 2006-09-14 06:29:39]
 
AGM100
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
few people in the Arab World feel that Islam is the only religion, and/or the thing about "subhuman" ...

ME AVN FAN, I believe you are correct about this. In my travels to the east I have never had any trouble with the people. I have met many proffesional highly eduacated Muslims who I can assume are very tolerant. The Problem is that the radicals push thier agenda using tacticts of pure intollerance and fear.

Speaking for myself only , I have allot of trouble understanding why the people I have met in ME , and people like them are not screaming about the radicals. People who have worked hard to educate themeslves in a obvious effort to better thier lives , do not feel empowered to fight againsts the radical forces. Why is this ? To me it is black and white . They must choose their future at this point. Unfourtanatly due to the agressive war fought against the west by the radicals , and the responce by the US for 9/11. The Moderates will be forced to side with the west , they do not seem to have the confidence in their own governemnts to fight the Jihadists.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
people like them are not screaming about the radicals.

to "scream" does NOT sound like a solution. But people are opposing radicals all over the place

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
do not feel empowered to fight againsts the radical forces.

to "fight" is the job of police and army.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 35):
The Moderates will be forced to side with the west , they do not seem to have the confidence in their own governemnts to fight the Jihadists.

A) the moderates in this regard DO side with the west
B) confidence is NOT generally lacking, but it depends on the leaders in question, some HAVE the confidence of the people, others not as much.

and do not forget that it in many ways is not so easy. I mean there are stubborn almost fundamentalist conservatives who however are NON-violent and NON-terroristic, there are moderate extremists, there are not so moderate communists, etc.
 
AGM100
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
to "scream" does NOT sound like a solution. But people are opposing radicals all over the place

Why ? Obviously not literally screaming , but letting their politicians know that they want a bold move made against the radicals. If they have to scream then Thats what they do. To me it seems that nobody over their wants to be the one who steps out, probably for fear of getting whacked.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
to "fight" is the job of police and army.

True, but unless the voter base is making demands on the government to really play hard ball. Why should the government move against these groups when they in turn face being overthrown or fighting a terror war in their streets.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
I mean there are stubborn almost fundamentalist conservatives who however are NON-violent and NON-terroristic, there are moderate extremists, there are not so moderate communists, etc.

Well to be blunt, we are not worried about them right now. AVN FAN , am I getting your point that the Jihadists are a very small minority ?
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dtwclipper
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:26 am

Cairo,

NKUSA.org is a bad example even for you.

They are just a group of extremists, and not a true representation.

I appreciate the fact that you like to back up your statements with sources, but they do not represent anyone but their own splinter group of crazy Orthodox Jews.

I am also unsure of the number they quote.

[Edited 2006-09-14 18:29:06]
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 37):
to "scream" does NOT sound like a solution. But people are opposing radicals all over the place
--
Why ? Obviously not literally screaming , but letting their politicians know that they want a bold move made against the radicals.

But exactly THIS has happened, and most Arab governments HAVE moved heavily against terrorists

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 37):
o "fight" is the job of police and army.
--
True, but unless the voter base is making demands on the government to really play hard ball. Why should the government move against these groups when they in turn face being overthrown

A) "demands on the government" WERE made
B) the governments DID/DO move because they see that the terrorists want to overthrow the government. To overthrow the governments is a central aim of the terrorists. That is why the various governments moved against the extremists rather heavily.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 37):
the Jihadists are a very small minority ?

of course. But very dangerous as knowing neither limits nor inhibitions.
 
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
Unfortunately, George Bush is in a position where he was to be "politcally correct". I interpret it as this guy believes Bush should have criticized the Islam religion as a whole on its faults, but common sense tells you that iff George Bush had gotten up there and said what this guy said in the article, A) the politcally correct crowd in America would be up in arms and B) so would most of the Arab culture, which wasn't quite what we needed on Sept. 12th, 2001

This has nothing to do with being politically correct. George Bush's own religion has myriad faults that have never been corrected and plague this country and the world to this very day, having caused terrorism on a massive and continued scale. Perhaps he stepped out of his glass house for a second.
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usnseallt82
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Bush IS a hell of a lot worse, but on this subject, Bush's comments were correct and this a'hole is completely off base.

Your opinion and nothing more.  redflag 

Bush is his own person and doing just fine. I'd hate to speculate as to what you would do in his position.

Secondly, a guy steps forward and apologizes for the idiots out there that give him a bad name. Can you honestly tell me there is anything wrong with that?

Someone stepping forward and apologizing is never a bad thing. Was that a mail-in "Certified Mediator and Arbitrator" program?  irked 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
George Bush's own religion has myriad faults that have never been corrected and plague this country and the world to this very day, having caused terrorism on a massive and continued scale.

So now, Bush is the cause for terrorism?

Even from you, I expect more.  redflag 
Crye me a river
 
N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 41):


Your opinion and nothing more.

No, the truth

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 41):
I'd hate to speculate as to what you would do in his position.

I guess diplomacy isn't your thing

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 41):
So now, Bush is the cause for terrorism?

Even from you, I expect more.

Even from you, I expect the ability to read.
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mandala499
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting BA757 (Reply 9):
Interesting that this comes from a Westernised Arab, but what about the millions (billions?) in the Middle East and Asia - do they have the same attitude?

We've been fighting Islamofascism for a few decades. The good thing is, 9/11 gave the active moderates to push these extremists to the corner... the bad thing is, those extremists started bombing in our country...

I guess the author of the article also missed that most if not all of the Muslim world condemned the terror acts but then again, no many of the target audience listened. I personally think the author is trying to rally up support against terrorism the wrong way.

One thing the Muslim world must do is, regardless of whether America is disrespecting/condescending the Muslim world or not, STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM! It's about time we Muslims stop listening blindly to hate-preaching clerics, it's about time we all solve the problems that are causing these terrorists to get more recruits, its about time we end poverty amongst our poor, its about time we give positive hope to our brothers and sisters...

Playing victim prevents us from doing it. Forget apologising for what those nutcases did on 9/11/2001! Apologizing means being with them in thought and motivation but then realizing its wrong... if you're like the attackers, then apologize, if you're not, forget apologizing.

The terrorist leaders are a bunch of disgruntled nutcases who got peeved off at the US stopping their pension plans... So, they got their money out to recruit disgruntled people to carry out the attacks, and thousands more poor people in hopeless conditions to start wreaking havoc in some places...

Let's all, Muslims, Christians and Jews solve this by bringing hope and dignity back to those in hopeless condition. Economic aids, programs and projects to the region shouldn't be pocketed by a few people and ending up impoverishing others. Campaigning for democracy doesn't mean they have to start a revolution or throwing out their government through war in the name of democracy and freedom, how about just empower them to go about their lives without fear for a start! Doesn't need troops or bullets. BUT, it is a long process, albeit a worthy one!

I for one shall uphold one law of my country, that is intolerance of other faith's existence (excluding splinter groups and groups who preach intolerance) is ILLEGAL by law and our constitution. Extremists fighting to set up an Islamic state of Indonesia are committing treason against the constitution... So, we've chased them, caught the leaders, and thrown them to prison... Some are on death row. And to be fair, we've done this for both Muslim AND Christian extremists in this country (yes, a few on both sides are on death row). Though, some slipped through the net (and even escaped...)

Now why are there a bigger push to eradicate extremism now? Coz we now have (though still not yet perfect) democracy back! Why does the fight against extremism continue? Coz economic despair and pressures continues to fuel recruitment for extremists.

An apology on behalf of 12 men who only share the name of Islam as a religion but with very different understandings of Islam is meaningless...

Mandala499
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usnseallt82
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
No, the truth

We're not going to go around in circles over your opinion.

It is your opinion and nothing more.  redflag 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
I guess diplomacy isn't your thing

Apparently, it isn't yours either.  irked 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Even from you, I expect the ability to read.

Your point seems pretty damn clear to me...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
George Bush's own religion has myriad faults that have never been corrected and plague this country and the world to this very day, having caused terrorism on a massive and continued scale.

Would you like to try again?  crazy 
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N1120A
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 44):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
George Bush's own religion has myriad faults that have never been corrected and plague this country and the world to this very day, having caused terrorism on a massive and continued scale.

Would you like to try again?

How about you do the same. I was speaking of a religion, not the monkey.
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usnseallt82
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
I was speaking of a religion, not the monkey.

Yeah, no crap. But you connected him with it as if he is some sort of pawn in the religious war.
Crye me a river
 
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 15):
On 9/11 every Arab leader from Saddam to Gaddafi publicly condemned the events of that day.

Source, please? Because I sure as hell don't remember every Arab leader - particularly the religious ones - doing that.

I DO remember seeing Palestinians dancing in the streets and burning U.S. flags that day, though. Boy, they sure seemed to be having a good time...  mad 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
1.4 billion Muslims don't owe anyone an apology. I owe you guys an apology just about as much as you me an apology for Iraq, which is very little considering i'm not Iraqi.

...or as much as anyone in the West owes 1.4 billion Muslims an apology for the crusades, too?

You're right, no apology for 9/11 is required - but nineteen psychotic Muslims and their two handlers owe me and my countrymen four planes, two buildings and 3,000 lives. How do I go about getting those back?

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 24):
Muslims will take no lessons from any outsiders... or even any non-muslims.
So it has to be arab muslims who work out this extremism problem, indeed.

Great - and how's that working, by the way?  duck 

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 33):
Falcon and I agree?

It happens. Just breathe normally...  Wink
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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slider
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 15):
On 9/11 every Arab leader from Saddam to Gaddafi publicly condemned the events of that day.

Yeah, Saddam and several others with a wink and an elbow nudge to their buddies, I'm sure. And doing so with their fingers crossed.

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 18):
But is it understandable given the circumstances? Yes.

What a crock. Boo-friggety-hoo. So being "picked on" justifies extremism? Funny how that argument only gets traction with Islamofascism.

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 18):
So should we hold our culture accountable for the acts of our extremeists? That's something I'm not sure about.

Maybe not your culture, but if Islam doesn't police itself, someone else WILL sort it out eventually and do so on a scale never before seen and at a time and schedule not of Islam's choosing.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
This has nothing to do with being politically correct. George Bush's own religion has myriad faults that have never been corrected and plague this country and the world to this very day, having caused terrorism on a massive and continued scale. Perhaps he stepped out of his glass house for a second.

Your virulent hate for Jorge Bush aside, he--and his religion--aren't forcing people to convert or be killed. HUGE difference.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 43):
Mandala499

Thank you for your well thought out post- I really enjoyed that perspective.



******************

Here's my thought on this- knowing that it is only a "minority" of Muslims that are radical Islamofascists and evil jihadists, let's say 10%, that still means that in a glocal religion of 1 billion people, that means there are still 100 MILLION trying to destroy me in net terms.

Feel better now?
 
AGM100
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RE: One Arab's Apology

Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
That is why the various governments moved against the extremists rather heavily.

IMO that is the goal to be persude in Iraq/Afhganistan. Establishment of a government who will be abject to EXTREMEST activities. Not in the way that Saddam did it, but more aligned with the principles of democracy. Another words the populace institutes laws that deter extremists views and builds the forces necessary to uphold those laws.
This should become a goal that all MODERATE Muslims should support.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 43):
An apology on behalf of 12 men who only share the name of Islam as a religion but with very different understandings of Islam is meaningless...

I agree with this , no apology is required from those not responsible. But a denouncement of the use of Islam as the motivating method for the killers of 9/11 would be nice. Strong voices need to rise from the Muslim world that denounces the (perceived) intolerance of Islam. This will separate the Radicals and marginalize them.
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