AC773
Topic Author
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Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:42 am

Summary courtesy of Slashdot:

Quote:
The GOP used a number of tactics in its fraudulent campaign including ballot-stuffing, denying newly registered voters (particularly in urban and minority precincts) their voting privileges via illegal mailings known as caging lists, inane voter registration requirements, preventing thousands of voters from receiving provisional ballots, under-providing Democrat-majority precincts with voting machines thus creating enormous queues of voters, faulty machines (particularly from Diebold) that skewed results in the GOP's favor, mostly unnoticed ballot-stuffing and fraud in rural areas, and a fixed recount that was paid for by the Green and Libertarian parties that essentially supported the initial fraudulent numbers

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

Right off the bat here, I don't know enough to have a position on this. First off, it's written by Robert F. Kennedy-not exactly the most objective person one could find on the matter. Second, I haven't seen any other article making this claim.

While I remain skeptical, the story certainly piqued my interest and I wanted to know how the A.net community felt about it. So, any thoughts?  Smile
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Newark777
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
First off, it's written by Robert F. Kennedy-not exactly the most objective person one could find on the matter.

 checkmark 

This is just more Democrats whining about losing the election.

They always say Gore should have won because he won the popular vote, but somehow the same doesn't apply in 2004. Convenient forgetfulness.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:53 am

To be honest, as a liberal Democrat, I was not thrilled with the outcome of either 2000 or 2004.

Do I subscribe to the "Stolen" argument, no.

Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
usnseallt82
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.

This is a problem I had with the Florida recount because I know if there had been a nationwide recount, the numbers would have been slightly different. You can't single out one state when they're just the only ones that got caught with bad voting.

I liked the outcome, but the system was messed up.
Crye me a river
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:11 am

Geeze; give it a rest.

If anything, Gore had tried to steal the election hisself, hiring a bastion of untold numbers of phone banks to democratic voters convincing them they "incorrectly interpreted" the voting system, tried to get offshore and other FPO and APO military personel's votes not counted, kept Dem-heavy polls in areas open past legal time, ad ininitum.

Anyway, Chad sez it's over. It's only two more years...give it another try then. Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:48 am

Oh god... this thread is going to be like water:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random/patienceislikewater.gif

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:10 am

Oh, man . . . .

First a thread on the US Gov't and 9/11 . . . .and NOW this Stolen Election Shit again . . .

Bad night to log in to A-net . . .

All the gawddman looney-tuners are out in force!!

Don't you guys have a mother-ship connection to make - or perhaps a tin foil hat convention somewhere???

 sarcastic 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AC773
Topic Author
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Don't you guys have a mother-ship connection to make - or perhaps a tin foil hat convention somewhere???

This thread comes with a free disclaimer; maybe you should read it.  Yeah sure
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
AirCop
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.

Yes, in Ohio at least, but it's water under the bridge. If the Democrats want a change better get in gear for November, and then worry about 2008.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
it's written by Robert F. Kennedy

'Nuff said.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:30 am

I find it interesting that people are so quick to accept official answers that any reasonable argument against the official is immediately judged as conspiracy.

Unless we question everything that power does, we become victims of said power.

No idea if it was "fixed" but enough irregularities occurred to piss me off. I love my country and I would rather not let my freedoms slip one bit.
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
TedTAce
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:58 am

If the question were purely did the Republicans steal the 2004 election, the answer is a VERY simple YES... but not for the reasons cited.

Two themes assured the Republicans election:

Fear
Gay Marriage

If those two were not used effectively bore would have won.

Please note, from the ads I have seen of our Retardicans in Florida they are going to beat these themes like redheaded step children this year as well...Maybe some Floridians will catch on, but I doubt it.. in all likelyhood this will be a good if not ok year for the Retardicans. But maybe people will catch on in time for 2006... I doubt it.
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Newark777
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
If the question were purely did the Republicans steal the 2004 election, the answer is a VERY simple YES... but not for the reasons cited.

Two themes assured the Republicans election:

Fear
Gay Marriage

So they "stole" it because they concentrated on issues they knew would give them the edge? Sounds like good strategy to me.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
any thoughts?

According to the DNC and the other cybabies? Yes. According to a majority of the population? No. The Democrats and their candidates have yet to provide an alternative as to why the Republicans shouldn't control the WH, the US House, and the Senate. At every turn, the Democrats just whine, complain and oppose everything the President does or asks for. Whenever the Democrats decise to actually have a plan for the future of America, then they may have a snowballs chance in hell of actually wining an election. The good news is, the media is on their side. As long as National Security and the Economy are the most important issues in the mid-term and General Election, then the Republicans win. If Iraq continues to spiral out of control(as the media has been very effective at portraying), the Democrats may win some seats in 2008. But they won't win the presidency in 08, Not with the candidates they seem to pushing.
Made from jets!
 
TransWorldSTL
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):


All the gawddman looney-tuners are out in force!!

Don't you guys have a mother-ship connection to make - or perhaps a tin foil hat convention somewhere???

You know, ANC, I usually always agree with your opinions on things, and respect you quite a bit, but its posts like these that make me lose all respect for you. If its not something you're interested in, or something you completely agree with, then it's absolute Bull---- or a total conspiracy. And surprisingly, your usual loyal ass-kissers aren't posting to show how funny they think that post was. Hmm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Bad night to log in to A-net . . .

Then please, do us all a favor, and log out... (maybe even for an extended period of time?)
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 14):

Oh jesus... what did I tell you.

This-Thread-Will-Go-Downhill-Fast

Must be Victimization Sunday.... first the thread about Muslims taking offense to the Pope, then corrupt cops looking to ticket for no good reason, then the government being behind 9/11... and now the 2004 election was stolen.  Yeah sure

Hey just throw in a thread about Reparations, Aliens Landing at Roswell, and Europeans raping Native Americans of Their Land... and the circle will be complete.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting TransWorldSTL (Reply 14):
You know, ANC, I usually always agree with your opinions on things, and respect you quite a bit, but its posts like these that make me lose all respect for you. If

Life's tough, wear a helmet . . .

This conspiracy theory bullshit is exactly that . . . and - in my best 6th grade voice - if these tin foil hat wearers can post this inane crap I can certainly bitch about it . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 12):
So they "stole" it because they concentrated on issues they knew would give them the edge? Sounds like good strategy to me.

That sounds like what every party does in an election. Focus on what you do well, avoid what you don't. The republicans focused on the security issues while the democrats focused on the social issues. I personally don't believe that either election was stolen, but, what do I know.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
then corrupt cops looking to ticket for no good reason,

Trust me, not just last week but everyday  Silly
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:42 pm

Does anybody actually bother to read the presented evidence anymore? I don't think the (2004) election was stolen, but I'm not going to slam someone for offering some evidence that suggests it may havebeen. If you don't agree, you could at least offer some counterpoints instead of the usual "tinfoil hat" crap (which I recall coming up an awful lot when the whole CIA secret prison story emerged...we saw just how ridiculous those rumors turned out to be  sarcastic  )
 
andessmf
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:57 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.

All elections have irregularities, what determines fraud is a concious effort to subvert or cancel certain votes.

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 10):
No idea if it was "fixed" but enough irregularities occurred to piss me off.

Again, see above. Irregularities in any election are a simple given. You have people handling the election process and people make mistakes.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.

All elections have irregularities, what determines fraud is a concious effort to subvert or cancel certain votes.

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 10):
No idea if it was "fixed" but enough irregularities occurred to piss me off.

Again, see above. Irregularities in any election are a simple given. You have people handling the election process and people make mistakes.

Please don't play the semantics game. It wa very clear why my point was!

Noun 1. irregularity - behavior that breaches the rule or etiquette or custom
or morality
misbehavior, misbehaviour, misdeed - improper or wicked or immoral behavior
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texan
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:48 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Do I believe there were irregularities? Yes, but not enough to have changed the outcome.

Agreed. It is clear that there was some ballot box stuffing in Ohio and other states, but does anybody seriously believe that there were somewhere around 130,000 false votes cast in Ohio alone? I'm not happy with the election results, but the Democrats are to blame for their own misfortune. Like it or not, personality matters. Gore had the personality of a tree, Kerry of a rock, and Bush was more personable than both of them. Let's reach back into the vault and quote former Texas Agriculture Commish Jim Hightower here: "If the gods had meant for us to vote they would have given us candidates."

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
TedTAce
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 12):
So they "stole" it because they concentrated on issues they knew would give them the edge? Sounds like good strategy to me.

Harry

Which is kind of my point...
Sub point being that if you think Dick Cheny cares about or even opposes gay marriage at all I have a news flash for you. They won on a point that most of them really didn't give squat about save to win the election.
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Newark777
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 23):
They won on a point that most of them really didn't give squat about save to win the election.

Politics is a bitch, ain't it?

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
bushpilot
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
They always say Gore should have won because he won the popular vote

I simply dont buy this argument, I am certainly no Bush supporter, but we have the electoral college for a reason. That being that the few states with high populations dont dominate the combined smaller states. For instance, TX,NY, CA and FLA, carrying a candidate that the rest of the country could hate and they win. As a resident of Alaska, I think the college is a good thing.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 12):
So they "stole" it because they concentrated on issues they knew would give them the edge? Sounds like good strategy to me.

I honestly believe it was Kerry's election to lose, and he did lose it well. If I was Kerry I would have been doing my best to engage Bush about security issues. Mr President, where are the WMDs, where is OBL, how come our border is not secure, how can you cut taxes and pursue a war? I mean Kerry just let Bush slide on so many issues, Kerry got labeled early on as a flip flopper, his combat history unfortunatly came into question, but I think the swiftboat vets was hog wash. The guy has been a US senator for 20something years and they dont say anything, but all of a sudden some accusations come out...BS. Sure he protested that war, and I think rightfully so, at least he went, and didnt get a cushy Air national guard job as a wannabe fighter jock.
Was the 2004 election stolen? NO, it was won by some very good campaigners who effectively scared the American people into voting for them.
 
Newark777
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
I simply dont buy this argument, I am certainly no Bush supporter, but we have the electoral college for a reason.

Exactly.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
As a resident of Alaska, I think the college is a good thing.

I disagree. Your vote should not count more than the vote from someone from Manhattan or Los Angeles.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
it was won by some very good campaigners who effectively scared the American people into voting for them.

Haha, I love that excuse, the American people were "scared." If you were scared by what the politicians were saying, I have to question your intelligence.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
bushpilot
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 26):
I disagree. Your vote should not count more than the vote from someone from Manhattan or Los Angeles.

I am not suggesting that, what I am saying is that the 9 most populous states have roughly half the poppulation. So it is possible for those 9 states to carry a President, when we have 41 other states with little voice. Trust me, I dont want any more voting powers than someone in NY, the system is in place for this reason. The one time it wont work out in my lifetime that someone wins the electoral and the opponent wins the popular vote, my guy didnt win. I am not complaining, its the rules of the game.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 26):
Haha, I love that excuse, the American people were "scared." If you were scared by what the politicians were saying, I have to question your intelligence.

I wasnt scared, I voted for Kerry. But it did work for plenty on plenty of other voters. I think another factor that Bush won in 04 was Bush saying, more or less I got us into Iraq, Ill win this war if you give me the chance. Kerry was accused of wanting to cut and run. It is similar to what Lou Dobbs wrote in his column last week. The GOP is failing the American people by pursuing a failing strategy in Iraq. The Democrats are failing us by whining and not coming up with a plan of thier own.
I have said time and time again, it is time to start some new parties that can be successful, or better yet, get rid of them both and let people run as the individual they are, so they are not subjct to the party politics and can vote what they think is right and what really is best for thier constituents.
 
Newark777
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 27):
Trust me, I dont want any more voting powers than someone in NY

But that is essentially what you are getting. Those smaller states have a smaller voice for a reason, and that is because they have less people.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 27):
I have said time and time again, it is time to start some new parties that can be successful, or better yet, get rid of them both and let people run as the individual they are, so they are not subjct to the party politics and can vote what they think is right and what really is best for thier constituents.

I agree with you on that. Whether that can ever happen is a whole different story.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
bushpilot
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 28):
But that is essentially what you are getting. Those smaller states have a smaller voice for a reason, and that is because they have less people.

Not really for a few reasons, firstly, AK only has 3 electoral college votes, NY has 36 I believe or nearly 10x as many votes. These numbers are based on the representatives each respective state has in both houses of congress. AK has a single Rep and like all the other states 2 senators. The two houses of congress was set up so states with larger populations didnt dominate smaller ones, the Senate is where all the states are equal in representation and the house is where amount of population determines that. I think it is a fair system as it is, the one time it didnt work out where one loses the popular vote and wins the electoral, my candidate lost, that is the rules of the game, if they were changed previous to that, then fine, but the fact that Gore won the popular vote and still lost the electoral college means that Gore lost the election, plain and simple.
 
andessmf
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:16 am

Let's also remember that in 2004 Bush won the popular vote, and the Democrats hope was a win thru the electoral college.

What comes around, goes around.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:44 am

The Democrats ran a horrible campaign in 04. Only now do you hear Kerry wanting to fight back against the swift boat veterans. A little late my friend. I think attacking Kerry's service was BS btw.

Do I think the election was stolen? No.

However more needs to be done to get people out to the voting booth. Why? Well it's gotten to the point where people don't care who wins because they think whoever is elected, be it Democrats or Republicans, won't do a damn thing for them. This is especially true in areas where people don't earn as much as people living in the 'burbs, and in these areas is where it seems like no one, especially elected officials, gives a rat's ass about the people living there.

But I think this trend is going to change for the 08 elections. At least I hope.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Halcyon
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 31):
However more needs to be done to get people out to the voting booth. Why? Well it's gotten to the point where people don't care who wins because they think whoever is elected, be it Democrats or Republicans, won't do a damn thing for them. This is especially true in areas where people don't earn as much as people living in the 'burbs, and in these areas is where it seems like no one, especially elected officials, gives a rat's ass about the people living there.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

There's a sad component of "the politician's don't care, they all suck, so why vote?" And they don't care. It's a vicious cycle that will be almost impossible to beat.  Sad
 
TedTAce
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 24):
Politics is a bitch, ain't it?

Easily said when you percieve yourself on the victorious side.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 26):
American people were "scared." If you were scared by what the politicians were saying, I have to question your intelligence.

You forget the diference between individual and mass inteligence. Most Americans are fairly smart on their own given the proper resources. Take a crowd of angry pissed of people and tell them the things they think they want to hear and you have a winner, just like Hitler.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 32):
It's a vicious cycle that will be almost impossible to beat. Sad

It's a vicious cycle that will be impossible to beat.
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andessmf
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 33):
ake a crowd of angry pissed of people and tell them the things they think they want to hear and you have a winner, just like Hitler.

What an original comparison!  sarcastic 

BTW, we had a thread about this some months back, and it was determined that Hitler was never elected by the majority of the German people. (Ah, yes, you could bring up 2000, and then I would respond with 2004)

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 32):

There's a sad component of "the politician's don't care, they all suck, so why vote?" And they don't care.

Another thread from months back referred to this as well, but of course your own rep. is good, the others are the bad ones. True, politicians dont care, so what you do is change their incentives. For example, tie their pay to a percentage of GDP, therefore if GDP goes up, so does their pay, and if it goes down, their pay follows.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
Please note, from the ads I have seen of our Retardicans in Florida they are going to beat these themes like redheaded step children this year as well...Maybe some Floridians will catch on, but I doubt it.. in all likelyhood this will be a good if not ok year for the Retardicans.

Another reason the GOP wins is the same reason they won Florida in 2000 - a bunch of retarded DEMOCRATS who couldn't figure out how to punch a friggin' hole.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Halcyon
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 33):
It's a vicious cycle that will be impossible to beat.

It IS a very sad thing, and I'm afraid you're right. AndesSMF is correct with his thinking:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 34):
Another thread from months back referred to this as well, but of course your own rep. is good, the others are the bad ones. True, politicians dont care, so what you do is change their incentives. For example, tie their pay to a percentage of GDP, therefore if GDP goes up, so does their pay, and if it goes down, their pay follows

That's really the only way. We somehow need to force reform, IMHO, because the system is broken for the people, if not the politicians.

Lucas
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:39 pm

WOW, a.neters really impress me.

A serious topic that is core to our democracy and all we get is name calling.

This is not a simple d vs. r topic. In a couple of yrs d's will be in power and all the r's that are shouting crybaby will be doing the same.

Grow past the d vs. r topic and really consider how we are allowing and accepting abuse of the system, no matter who is in power.


This has been going on longer than Bush, Clinton, Regan. So why Are you willing to put up with it when so much is at stake?
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 31):
The Democrats ran a horrible campaign in 04. Only now do you hear Kerry wanting to fight back against the swift boat veterans. A little late my friend. I think attacking Kerry's service was BS btw.

Actually, the thing that really turned off voters to the Kerry campaign was his very elitist Bostonian attitude. And his wife's bizzare pronouncements didn't help things, either. To cite an example, when Senator Kerry made a surprise visit to a Red Sox-Yankees game he 1) mixed up the names of two players, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz (he use the name "Manny Ortez") and 2) when he threw out the first pitch it looked totally pitiful compared to the first pitch President Bush threw out at Game 3 of the 2001 World Series.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Was The 2004 Election Stolen?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 37):
A serious topic that is core to our democracy and all we get is name calling.

You're not a true Anetter until you've been roasted.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
a bunch of retarded DEMOCRATS who couldn't figure out how to punch a friggin' hole.

They seem to have little trouble reproducing the species though

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38):
Actually, the thing that really turned off voters to the Kerry campaign was his very elitist Bostonian attitude

Followed closely by the fact that he couldn't make up his mind on what position he stood on. I tried to listen to this guy, but I just couldn't get this guy. I honestly gave him a chance to convince me he was presidential material, but I was falling asleep trying to understand where he was coming from. After a while, I just gave up.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38):
when Senator Kerry made a surprise visit to a Red Sox-Yankees game he 1) mixed up the names of two players, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz (he use the name "Manny Ortez") and 2) when he threw out the first pitch it looked totally pitiful compared to the first pitch President Bush threw out at Game 3 of the 2001 World Series.

Yeah, a real Sox fan. I was amazed he didn't show up with a Chicago hat on.
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