qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:55 pm

This is the Muslim world here, and we'd like to say some things to you too.

You guys seem to think that things have been tense between us only because of what we have done, and that we are somehow jelous and envious of you, hence the hatred towards America.

Now, firstly, I would like to ask the Western world, especially America, whether you actually believe yourself when you say its because we are somehow jealous of you. You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11, and going on about your war on terror, let us ask you some questions and get some understanding over why you seem to think that we are wrong no matter what we do.

First of all, on the subject of 9/11, Americans continue to believe the myth that the Arab and Muslim world was silent after the attacks. Well, i've got news for you: even the extremist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah condemned the attacks, Hamas made all of its schools give 2 minutes of silence on the 12th of September and Hezbollah condemned the attacks and Al Qaeda. Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that. And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false, it is exteremley ironic that you keep bringing that up yet you guys forget about the 15 Israelis that were clapping and cheering on the roof of an NYC building during the attack. Where is the anger towards those 15 Israelis?

Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you, threatning you, etc. How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month? How can the West say this after it has ignored the deaths that have occured in the past 6 years in the Palestinian territories, which far surpass the casualties of 9/11? Most importantly, how can the West actually say that we are threatning it and killing in it while it is the West that funds Israel, the West that started Islamic extremism, and the West that is occupying land in the Muslim world or giving support to those that do? Do you guys think Islamic extremism started out of thin air? Who created Bin Laden, then stopped supporting him and allowed things to get out of hand?

You guys say that everything has to lead to violence in our part of the world, I find this pretty ironic coming from the West. The most significant player in all of this is obviously the USA, and to the US, I ask this - you are pointing the finger at us for being violent? After you have invaded a country for no reason and caused it to completley collapse, and you have supported a country that has killed thousands of Muslims unconditionally?

Also, to the US, you want to talk about violent history and resorting to history? You guys need to look no further than at your own history. You claim that we have to resort to violence with everyone we disagree with, well, I beg to differ: the US, for the past century, has resorted to violence with every single country that has seriously challenged the US's hold on its economy or has someone been seen as a "threat". It started with Hawaii at the end of the 19th century, when the Hawaiian queen was overthrown, and in the past century we have seen coups and intervention in many, many countries, including the Phillippines, Nicagura, Cuba, Iran, Vietnam, Chile, Guatemala, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq - those are just the ones with direct involvement. In countries such as Guatemala, coups were held due to ensure American multi-national companies could continue to operate, and in others such as Iran, it was because they were misled into believing the country was a threat. For a country with such a long history of intervention through violence, it is highly ironic that you would point any fingers at us. How many nations have the Muslim world been responsible for attacking compared to the Western world?

Now, you guys say that you want to live in peace, I don't see how the West isn't living in peace. Your idea of living in peace is to not hear any more news reports about terrorism, the Palestinian idea of living in peace is to not live in fear of a bomb falling on their heads, or having a child or sibling die. The Iraqi idea of peace is to not have their family killed by a militia. The Lebanese idea of peace is to not have an aircraft bomb their home. If you truly wanted peace, you would not reelect George Bush, you would not remain silent while 1,000 were murdered in Lebanon or while 4,000 Palestinians were being murdered, and you would actually call for your countries to not blindly support Israel. America, if you want peace, why are you paying for the weapons being used to kill Palestinians and Lebanese?

Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken. We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

-The Muslim World
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
If you truly wanted peace, you would not reelect George Bush,

I just knew somehow Bush would get the blame . . . .

FYI, he can't be re-elected . . . moot point.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
while it is the West that funds Israel

And Egypt . . .

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
you would not remain silent while 1,000 were murdered in Lebanon

I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
America, if you want peace, why are you paying for the weapons being used to kill Palestinians and Lebanese?

And the weapons sold to Lebanon, and Egypt, and Pakistan, and Turkey . . .

It's called free enterprise.

Good Past QR . . . better than the earlier one by PadwhatshisnametheUShater.
I'll come back later when I'm more awake and have more time and pick at it a bit more.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I just knew somehow Bush would get the blame . . . .

FYI, he can't be re-elected . . . moot point.

I was referring to his re-election in 2004, which was after the Iraq war started, and I am not blaming him completley.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
And Egypt . . .

Exactly. Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship which does not allow any freedom, yet it gets full support from the US, which further angers people.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

You quoted me out of context - I said for a whole month. The US refused to even condemn the Qana attacks, and while diplomacy did eventually get through, it took a month for the world to react properly, and by the end of that month Lebanon as a shaterred country.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
And the weapons sold to Lebanon, and Egypt, and Pakistan, and Turkey . . .

Lebanon (as a country), Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey have not attacked anyone recently, and have not been responsible for thousands of deaths.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
You quoted me out of context

If I had quoted your entire paragraph, my reply would be the same.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Lebanon (as a country), Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey have not attacked anyone recently,

Irrelevent.

Defense of a country requires weapons and weapons must be bought/sold.

I can't think that Japan has attacked anyone in the last 60 years either - but they have a standing Army, Navy and Air Force.

Hmmm doesn't Jordan maintain a standing Army and Air Force? They don't go about attacking anyone either - should they stop weapons procurement??
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11,

Well, it only killed 3000 people, QR. It only destroyed two of the finest buildings in the nation, QR. It only damaged the Pentagon, QR. It was only AN ACT OF WAR on the United States.

There are, if you will, certain "life-changing" events in the history of any nation. We've had our Civil War, Pearl Harbor, the assassination of President Kennedy, and 9/11. If you think such events will not change a nation, then you don't know enough about the situation, my friend.

I do agree we obsess too much with it sometime, but neither should it be forgotten, because those Arabs who perpertrated it on us, have said they want to kill more Americans in such a fashion.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

Talk to Hezbollah, QR. They deliberately started this conflict, and, when you do so, you take a combatants chances. Lebanon could have solved that problem long ago, but chose not to, at the behest of their masters in Damascus.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys say that everything has to lead to violence in our part of the world

A CARTOON led to violence; The Pope quoting words led to violence. And you want me to take you seriously? Everytime someone says they don't like Islam, that part of the world goes banana's, burns American and Israeli flags, screams "Death to America"; pulls out posters of nuts like Khomeini and bin Laden.

The problem is, what I said is the truth. There is such a violent tendancy among many in the Islamic world these days, as to be frightening. That's why I contend that it's the Islamic world pushing the envelope on conflict, not the west, Iraq notwithstanding.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
you are pointing the finger at us for being violent?

Yes, we are, and it'll keep pointing at you. 9/11; USS Cole; Embassy bombings; London; Madrid, etc etc etc. Again, wake p to the reality.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
including the Phillippines

We gave the Philippines its independence, dude. And when they asked us to close or military bases there, we complied. So much for that.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Afghanistan

Are you denying our legitimate right to war on the nation that protected those who warred on us on 9/11/2001, QR? Afghanistan was and is a perfectly legitimate conflict. Unfortunately, our stupid president took his eye off the ball on that one to go after boogey men that didn't exist in Iraq.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken.

No, it is not. And, if it is, you have a funny way of showing it, because you then turn around and support other creeps just as evil as he and Al Qaeda are.

The point is this: the Arab/Islamic world, right now, does NOT want to live and let live with the West. It wants the West to embrace Islam as its faith, which I refuse to do, not out of hatred for that faith, but because I have my own that I believe is The Way, The Truth and The Light; they want the West to accept the law of the Koran in our lands, and I refuse to do that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Keep you law in your lands. They want the U.S. to simply abandon friends and allies, so those friends can be destroyed. I refuse that, as it's morally wrong, and you don't do that to a long-standing friend.

There can be peace in the region, but more and more, I fear it will take a cataclysmic clash of arms to accomplish, and, in that scenario, the Islamic and Arab worlds will be the big losers. If it comes to that, you only have yourselves to blame.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I'll come back later when I'm more awake and have more time and pick at it a bit more.

...and therein lies the base of the problem: the desire from both sides to pick at each other's points, and try to prove them wrong. The perfect way to never let this situation end, ever.

Let's take this post, and the one made by Falcon, for what they really are: the viewpoints of both sides in this conflict. Even though we might not agree completely with the one for 'our' side (I know I think both make some good points, and both state things I do not agree with) it is clear that, on the whole, they represent both sides quite well.

Now, instead of picking at the posts, both of them, to try and prove the points made there wrong, why don't we compare both views here. It illustrates just how big the difference in perception is between our two worlds. With similar letters from posters of both sides, we have a perfect opportunity for that right here.

Keep in mind that neither of these two letters was written objectively: both were influenced by the respective posters' cultures, societies and prejudices (and that's not meant as an insult, we are all prejudiced to a point). Does that make one of them right, and the other wrong? No. Is there a point in picking at either of them to prove a point? No. Why? Because no-one here is going to convince the other of their right.

So let's just take these for what they are, and draw our conclusions from them. I for one, after reading both of them, am no longer wondering why our two worlds are close to grabbing the other by the throat: with views so radically different, I'm actually surprised it took so long.

...or we could just continue ripping at each other's points like little kids.

[Edited 2006-09-19 15:22:51]
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
This is the Muslim world here, and we'd like to say some things to you too.

Could you wait a moment while I step behind a bomb proof wall?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Now, firstly, I would like to ask the Western world, especially America, whether you actually believe yourself when you say its because we are somehow jealous of you.

I don't care what the lame excuse of the week is. Stop being radical nut jobs who think blowing up civilians is a great way to make an imaginary friend in ethereal space happy enough to donate virgins to you.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Americans continue to believe the myth that the Arab and Muslim world was silent after the attacks.

Silent? Of course not. Most of us remember the video of Muslims cheering after 9/11.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you, threatening you, etc. How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

And what exactly was the rest of the world doing to intervene?

Do I see another damned if you do, damned if you don't, no win scenario for the US?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Also, to the US, you want to talk about violent history and resorting to history?

No, I really don't care what happened last century, or last decade. I live now, and won't apologize or explain what people who lived in the past did.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken.

Want to explain how he keeps getting funding and shelter then?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

My neighbors are the biggest A**hole pricks ever to set foot on the planet. I hate the very existence of them. I'm not about to blow their house up, chop off theirs heads, or burn likenesses of them. That's the difference. I'm civil about my differences with them. Can the Muslim world say the same thing about the west?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
sw733
Posts: 5306
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):

I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

Come on, you can not take a straight face and say that the West jumped at the chance of making peace. The West LOVED the idea of getting rid of Hezbollah, and it didn't matter it more kids than Israeli soldiers died in the end...and Hezbollah is still as strong as ever, if not more so.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11,

Well, it only killed 3000 people, QR

Look, 9/11 was a horribl event, and I am saying that as an American citizen...it deserves its place in the history books, and will always be remembered. But we cannot continue to blame everything on 9/11...eventually it will be the year 2030, and than what? Can we still blame everything on it?
 
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solnabo
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:28 pm

Huh?

"15 israeli was cheering and clapping their hands on a NYC roof during the attack"

Never heard about it, where did you read that?

Micke//  Confused
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 5):
Now, instead of picking at the posts, both of them, to try and prove the points made there wrong, why don't we compare both views here.

Don't get your panites in a wad . . . that's exactly what I'm going to do when I get some rest . . .

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
But we cannot continue to blame everything on 9/11...eventually it will be the year 2030, and than what? Can we still blame everything on it?

Hmm, as I recall, there was still some pretty sour feelings in a lot of people about December 7th, 1941 for a good 30-40 years . . .

I will not forget 9/11 ever. And anyone that does or thinks we ought to 'let bygones be bygones' needs to have their head examined . . . if that means that in the year 2030, there is still a 9/11 remembrance every 5 year anniversary then I'm fine with it.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
The West LOVED the idea of getting rid of Hezbollah,

Damn right . . . another terrorist organization eliminated.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Scorpio
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Don't get your panites in a wad

Don't worry, I'm not. I wasn't attacking you, you just happened to be the one who replied to this post first. I was simply referring to the fact that 'picking at' the other's points to prove a point is usually all that happens in a thread like this, and it serves no purpose.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Exactly. Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship which does not allow any freedom, yet it gets full support from the US, which further angers people.

Hmmm. Saddam was an evil dictater and now he's gone - angers peope.
Hmmm. Egypt, a corrupt dictatorship that gets support - angers people.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
slider
Posts: 6812
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
even the extremist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah condemned the attacks,

Uh-huh. With a wink and a nudge....gimme a break! You buy that crap?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that.

Document please. And again, if you think there was a hint of sincerety in half of those so-called sympathies, I have some swampland in Louisiana to sell you.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
the West that started Islamic extremism



Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

QUIT PROJECTING!!

This is exactly the crux of the problem....blaming someone else! Stop it! Get over it. Deal with Islam's failings, the trappings of the radical imams, clerics and Islamofascists among you instead of blaming the West, America, Israel, etc....
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15323
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

Idunno...you tell us? More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims than at the hands of "the West" so "you" should be an expert on the topic.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that. And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false, it is exteremley ironic that you keep bringing that up yet you guys forget about the 15 Israelis that were clapping and cheering on the roof of an NYC building during the attack. Where is the anger towards those 15 Israelis?

First of all-> I stood at the American embassy on the eve of 9/11 2001 here in Copenhagen, and I watched a car of Palestinians screaming past all of us sobbing and flower laying and candle lighting people, screaming yaaaaay and waving a Palestinian flag... And this is here in Copenhagen! So do not give me that shit, so many have spoken about the US finally getting their asses kicked... Even non-Muslims!

Secondly-> The last sentence is absurd, I really mean that!!

Last but not least, if the views expressed in your post are your honest opinions, and not just a provocative response to Falcon84's thread, I must say that I give up on you, I really mean that.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
SlamClick
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken

Then there should be a Muslim coalition army scouring Afghanistan and Pakistan to find Bin Laden. They should go get him and deliver him either to a world court such as Den Haag or to an Arab court for justice. This army, being Muslims, would not defile your beautiful countries as our western armies do by their mere presence.

Clearly what he did was unlawful. If it offends you - go get him. You can certainly afford it.

If it did not offend you quit lying about how it did.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
checkraiser
Posts: 814
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RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:51 pm

If the Islamic world really did condemn terrorism Bin Laden would have been handed over on a silver platter by now.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false

False? I suppose the Jews running Hollywood quickly produced that little nugget for our viewing pleasure.  sarcastic 
N1120A is a camel-fucking terrorist.
 
slider
Posts: 6812
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 16):
If the Islamic world really did condemn terrorism Bin Laden would have been handed over on a silver platter by now.

Another good point.

If SOOO many Muslims condemned 9/11, and denounce bin Laden, then why hasn't someone dropped a dime on him? A Pakistani perhaps? Or an Afghan?
 
TeamAmerica
Posts: 1540
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

I note that you don't deny hating us. We get that, loud and clear. Your hatred obscures any other message you may wish to convey.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
I note that you don't deny hating us. We get that, loud and clear. Your hatred obscures any other message you may wish to convey.

 checkmark  Well put, well put!

Quoting Slider (Reply 17):
Another good point.

If SOOO many Muslims condemned 9/11, and denounce bin Laden, then why hasn't someone dropped a dime on him? A Pakistani perhaps? Or an Afghan?

I actually think, people hate helping or aiding or doing anything that has anything to do with the US so much, that they just would look the other, were Ossama and co. pass them by.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:17 am

Another critical omission in your message. Not once did you write the words:

"Israel has the right to exist."


Until you can it appears that getting along with you requires that we permit you to anihilate Israel.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:21 am

Oh well, I tried. Please continue the 'I'm right, you're wrong' and the 'it's your fault more than our fault' BS.  Yeah sure
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):
Oh well, I tried. Please continue the 'I'm right, you're wrong' and the 'it's your fault more than our fault' BS

I understand what you mean, but it is the values that are colliding and it is the view angles which are causing strife... We cannot ignore it, because it is the main root to our conflict and the essense of why we argue.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
sw733
Posts: 5306
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Damn right . . . another terrorist organization eliminated.

I understand this, but we also have to realize that they are a legitimate and elected political party in Lebanon...it as if an outside country came on and tried to overthrow the Republicans...and I know you are one, so you'll probably try to have me hanged for saying this, but many in the Eastern world, some in my "US-friendly" country included (and many many more in the Middle East) believe the Republicans are a terrorist organization...trust me, I've been to the Middle East, I've talked to them, and if I would have mentioned I was an American citizen as well as a Namibian one, I may have not have made it out based on how angry they became during our discussions.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Hmm, as I recall, there was still some pretty sour feelings in a lot of people about December 7th, 1941 for a good 30-40 years . . .

Absolutely, but how long did the WAR last after December 7th? About 4 years...just about as long as this one...but guess what the difference is, we aren't going to win in dominant fashion like we did in WW2. We wont topple the terrorists like we did the Germans and Japanese, and when the count of US soldiers killed starts to reach the number that were killed on 9/11, the reaons this whole war started in the first place, not to mention the other Coalition troops and loads of innocent civilians (almost 50,000 in Iraq alone), we have to SERIOUSLY start thinking about what the next logical step is - we can't keep going gung ho for years and years saying we'll kick their butts, because so far, it isn't happening, at least not to the level it should considering the supremecy in the world of the US military



ANCFlyer, I accept your opinions, and I love that we can have an open discussion and argument about this, I simply disagree with your view, as you do with mine. Please don't feel that I am trying to knock your beliefs, or in any way think you are wrong, idiotic, or anything like that - because I don't. I shy away from political discussions on A.Net for the reason that I shy away from them offline - I don't like sharing my views often, I love keeping them to myself, but I just had to join in on this one. Cheers
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3652
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Could you wait a moment while I step behind a bomb proof wall?

RRROOOOFFFFLLLLLL!!!!!

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

And your point is? What did your people do to get whacked on? If you piss on my house, do you expect me not to piss on yours? Plenty of warning was issued by Israel, and they were provoked with the kidnapping of their soldiers, that were in their own border! Someone walked across the border into Israel, and took them hostage. What did you expect? Israel to sit back, and negotiate with terrorists? NO WAY! Give Israel credit for dropping leaflets and warning individuals to leave or face an attack.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West say this after it has ignored the deaths that have occured in the past 6 years in the Palestinian territories, which far surpass the casualties of 9/11?

So I guess we should be thankful that we only lost a few thousand in a terrorist attack on 9/11? Should I tell the families of 9/11 your bullshit sob story about how many people died in 6 years in Palestinian territories? Better yet, you hop on a plane and tell them your sob story. Make sure you get a life insurance policy first, and put my name on it!!  Smile

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you,

You use the word "us" and "we", and you use it often. And you tried to preach about how well maintained and innocent your religion is? You tried to tell me your religion was about peace? You stated that many times that it was a few thousand that chose to walk on the dark side in another posting. Oh man, you have to be with them dude.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

So you hate Americans! Why didn't you just say it? Why write a long letter beating around the bush? Damn, get to the point, will ya? I knew you did, just by many of your previous posts. Again, you use the word "we", which I could look at as muslims in whole. Right? If I said we hated you, I guess you could say that "we" being the United States. Right?

Gotta run, I have to raise my beautiful American flag a notch or two higher. And gotta go buy an Israeli flag! You have given me an even bigger reason to support Israel! THANKS BUDDY!

Lots of love and best wishes,

Signed,

The Infadel!
AKA: F9Animal/Infadel
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 22):
We cannot ignore it, because it is the main root to our conflict and the essense of why we argue.

And so, in order to overcome it, you... argue in circles some more?

Wonderful  Yeah sure
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
If you truly wanted peace, you would not reelect George Bush,
--
I just knew somehow Bush would get the blame . . . .
---
FYI, he can't be re-elected . . . moot point.

he already WAS re-elected, it now is his second term, if I am not mistaken

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

no, the USA carefully extended the matter as long as possible and for weeks blocked all diplomatic initiatives (UN/F)

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?
-
Talk to Hezbollah, QR. They deliberately started this conflict,

Hizbullah provoked it, but the attack in question was started by Israel on 13th July.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
to say some things

a really great post here ! congratulations !
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:48 am

This thread is pure comedy gold. If anyone needs to understand the fog through which the Muslim world lives you need look no further than here.

Bravo Q.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 28):
This thread is pure comedy gold. If anyone needs to understand the fog through which the Muslim world lives you need look no further than here.

^^ Behold the reason why this conflict will never be solved. The 'they're wrong, we're right' attitude, which prevails on both sides of the fence. Tell me, you do realise that Falcon's post would be greeted with the same attitude as yours, Jamesag96, by some in the Middle East, right? And why? Because there are equally thick people on both sides of the fence who fail, or rather, refuse to see that this is no matter of 'they're wrong and we're right', but that there are good points to be made by both sides.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 28):
to understand the fog through

it just is the question where that fog is. You think it is on the other side while it possibly is just a few miles off the Eastern Seaboard of the USA. Unless of course it is not fog, just dirt on your glasses.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27):
a really great post here ! congratulations !

 Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
think it is on the other side while it possibly is just a few miles off the Eastern Seaboard of the USA.

^^ Thanks for illustrating that, indeed, this 'we're right, you're wrong' attitude prevails on both sides...  Yeah sure
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 29):
Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 28):
This thread is pure comedy gold. If anyone needs to understand the fog through which the Muslim world lives you need look no further than here.

^^ Behold the reason why this conflict will never be solved. The 'they're wrong, we're right' attitude, which prevails on both sides of the fence. Tell me, you do realise that Falcon's post would be greeted with the same attitude as yours, Jamesag96, by some in the Middle East, right? And why? Because there are equally thick people on both sides of the fence who fail, or rather, refuse to see that this is no matter of 'they're wrong and we're right', but that there are good points to be made by both sides.

I didn't read Falcons post so I have no reference point, I only read Q's post and as I stated it is comedy gold.

I live in a world where I believe there is a right and there is a wrong, certainly it goes both ways and while I am not trying to reduce a very complicated situation to one sentence, I believe the west as a whole is more "right". Take it for what you will, but I see the furor over cartoons, the furor over the Pope, and the furor over anything deemed anti-Islamic and am reminded why I feel that way.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:35 am

There are very few ideas that are absolutely unacceptable in the modern world. Almost everything can be negotiated, moderated, compromised. The one absolute monstrosity is "Kill all the _____" The world can never again permit anyone, anywhere to pursue this idea.

At the moment Islam is the only proponent of this idea: "Kill all the Israelis" is a part of their culture at the present time. They may deny it, they may try to insult me for saying it but a dozen times I've challenged our Muslim friends to just type the words:

"Israel has the right to exist"

Not one of them has ever even acknowledged the challenge. They've even snuck off to other sites and posted lies about me and deleted my posts, but they have yet to take or reject the challenge.

What about it?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15323
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RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
no, the USA carefully extended the matter as long as possible and for weeks blocked all diplomatic initiatives (UN/F)

While the Arab/Muslim world did their utmost to disarm and wind down Hizbullah before, during, and after the fact....wait...no that didn't happen  Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FrancoBlanco
Posts: 382
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:25 am

Usually I try to stay out of political discussions on A.net, but QR332's post deserves some support. The truth is the truth.

Sebastian

P.S. I won't post anything else in this thread, nor am I going to read new responses so quoting or attacking me is rather useless and a waste of time.
'Pointless!' - NY Times
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 25):
And so, in order to overcome it, you... argue in circles some more?

Wonderful

You cannot ignore a conflict... come on! Not unless you stand no where, opinion wise, where I guess you stand, or try to stand anyways... But listen all you have done here, is criticizing us for argueing, so in essense you have argued with us all and perhaps mostly just your self... How is that better? or More constructive?
You suggest we just become passive and with out principle and opinions or values... Something out of the question for many of us.

Yes the conflict would disapear like dew before the sun, if only we did not argue... But that is not a solution, that is just closing your eyes wishing for something to go away. IMO!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 33):
a right and there is a wrong

oh sure, and those who do NOT agree with what you "know" as right are against you ?
didn't we hear something thelike from somebody else before ?  sarcastic  scratchchin 

Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 33):
believe the west as a whole is more "right"

is there a unitary single opinion in "the West" ? and what/who exactly is "the West" ? and who exactly is "the East" ?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
Islam is the only proponent of this idea: "Kill all the Israelis" is a part of their culture at the present time.

Islam is a religion and NOT a political entity. And a religion cannot be a proponent of any contemporary political idea. Beside the point that only a tiny minority of Muslims in the world want to have Israelis killed. Anti-Zionism in whatever way anyway is NOT part of "Muslim culture".

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
to just type the words:
"Israel has the right to exist"

well, to say that "Israel has the right to exist" is possible, but the emphasis today has to be that people simply accept Israel, recognize Israel and try to find productive solutions with Israel. ----- Ooooops ! did I just now "type the words "Israel has the right to exist" ?  scratchchin  wave   wink 

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
wind down Hizbullah

at present, the Lebanese government troops and the UN troops have robbed Hizbullah of their potential bases in South Lebanon, and improved border controls, also offshore, will rob them of the previous supply lines, so that they canNOT deploy whatever weapons they have any longer. Hizbullah as a political party is ugly but legal and cannot be wound down.
 
GSM763
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:35 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:46 am

OK I will make no bones about the fact that I do not support Israel's world views but I will happily agree that.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 34):
"Israel has the right to exist"

OK we're done with that.
9/11 was a terrible day a day when almost 3,000 people were killed. It was a terrible day and the rest of the world was immediately behind you and I quote the French newspaper headline "Nous Sommes Tous Américains" (We are all Americans) what Bush has done is to turn a tidal wave of grief and solidarity into a sour taste. Saddam Hussein was an evil man and a terrible dictator but my government told me that we were going into Iraq because he had WMD which he didn't. The number of people killed by American bombs and "friendly fire" far outnumbers those killed on 9/11 and that is why the world is fed up with the use of it as a reason for all US actions. Despite not being one myself I would be willing to bet that all Muslim's including those that now feel disgusted about what is going on in Iraq felt equally shocked by 9/11. By invading Iraq and what subsequently happend this view has been turned round.

Feel free to quote and bash as much as you want.
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting FrancoBlanco (Reply 36):
Usually I try to stay out of political discussions on A.net, but QR332's post deserves some support. The truth is the truth.

Yes your truth, lets not forget that...  Yeah sure

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4797
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 37):
You cannot ignore a conflict... come on!

Whoever said anything about 'ignoring' anything? All I said was use the opportunity to compare the two viewpoints, both of which contain truths and both of which contain subjectively colored opinion, and maybe find a middle ground. In this conflict, more than anywhere else, the truth is somewhere in between the two points of view we have seen presented here. Let's try and find that, iso this useless bickering back and forth, which isn't going to change anybody's point of view on here.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 40):
Yes your truth

he wrote "THE truth" !
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
iso this useless bickering back and forth, which isn't going to change anybody's point of view on here.

True, very true, in fact I have many times thought to my self, why we all in here engage in these discussions, but I think we need the confrontation, the debate...

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
All I said was use the opportunity to compare the two viewpoints, both of which contain truths and both of which contain subjectively colored opinion, and maybe find a middle ground

Yes I understand, but I disagree with the truth bits... Much of what I argue against, are based on rumours, worst-case scenarios and/or prejudice, so no I cannot find a middle ground, I can how ever accept that some have these opinions, but then cannot always just sit back and let them be posted with out comments.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
he wrote "THE truth" !

Yes but like it or not, I do not see it as THE truth ME AVN FAN, this is why I reminded him, that he is speaking about his truth, not mine...

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:43 am

I simply cannot believe that ANYONE even responded to this thread.

I am entirely disgusted with the original post.

All the original poster has shown is his/her ignorance. That's it.

I won't even bother to respond to anything they said.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 33):
a right and there is a wrong

oh sure, and those who do NOT agree with what you "know" as right are against you ?
didn't we hear something thelike from somebody else before ?

By default....yes. If I am right, you are wrong it's really simple to understand.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
Quoting JamesAg96 (Reply 33):
believe the west as a whole is more "right"

is there a unitary single opinion in "the West" ? and what/who exactly is "the West" ? and who exactly is "the East" ?

The OP started with "The West" and then mentioned the U.S. But that isn't really your point is it?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
Quoting Windshear (Reply 40):
Yes your truth

he wrote "THE truth" !

HIS OWN "truth" which along with Q's is comedy gold.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6459
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:11 am

To the "western world" or its claimants, let me express my view on behalf of my country, a secular nation that happens to have the largest Muslim population in any country.


Dear Western World,
We do not care how many people died in 9/11/2001.
We care that people died... 1, 10, 100, 1000, or even more. We care that people died.

We do not care why your enemies hate you, but we do care about your plight, as we are also under attack.

We do not care if you think we're your enemies, because we're fighting our common enemy, and that is more important.

But there are things we, both you and I care about.
We care about our principles of tolerance.
We care about our respect for humanity.
We care about defending the diversity of this world.
We care about our respective ways of life

Although we seem to be on the same side, and we are fighting the same enemy, there are a few things we are confused of...

Why do you still blame us for our religion?
Why are your societies' eyes blind about the diversity of those who profess our faith?

Why do you think that 9/11 is more important that other attacks by your enemies against us? Are numbers that important to you, and more so than the overall tragedy happening in this world we share?

Why do you still view our version of our beliefs are as intolerant and inhumane as our common enemy?

Why do you still think that we are silent and allowing these radicals to attack you when we ourselves have been attacked and are responding with a mission to bring them to justice, and have done so!

Why do you still view us as the same as your enemies when your leaders have said that we are not with them?

Why don't you see that we and our enemies are different despite sharing the same name in religion but with different understandings of the meaning of the faith?

Why don't you understand the source of the problem? No, the problem is not you, the problem is that our enemies are using hopelessness of some as a means to misguide their subjects.

Why don't you see that the continued advocation by some of you that just because we have the same religion as your enemies that we are therefore silent or even worse, with your enemies?

Why don't you see that those who continue to advocate such are doing it in the same way as our enemies preach hate?

While we are trying to root out our common enemy who are hiding amongst our midsts, please understand that some of you have become like our common enemy, preaching hate and intolerance.

As your friend and ally, we sincerely hope that you do not fall into the same trap as those from our side that have fallen for the trap of joining the enemy.

As we are both suffering from the enemy, we both have the enemy amongst our midsts, but in our common effort to root our enemies out, do not let those who share intolerance and ignorance like our common enemy overtake you!

Beware of those who claim to be you and I, and belief as you and I do in this common struggle, but that in their minds they are the same as our common enemies, filled with intolerance and ignorance, because they are truly our enemies and betrayers, just like those that have betrayed us that day.


Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 28):
If anyone needs to understand the fog through which the Muslim world lives you need look no further than here.

 checkmark  When I first joined A.net, I think I was considered somewhat of an extremist for my hardline views on Islamic militants...But it's refreshing to see so many people starting to see the bullsh*t coming out of the Muslim world and respond accordingly.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:35 am

Nice to see so many people jumping up on the defensive, and, as usual, ignoring the bulk of my post.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Irrelevent.

Defense of a country requires weapons and weapons must be bought/sold.

But when you sell it to a country knowing the weapons will most probably be used to kill civilians and yet you don't stop to question the country, it makes it very relevant.

There is a difference between selling weapons to a country that has a very aggressive history and one which history shows is much less likely to provoke an attack or to use the weapons on civilians.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Well, it only killed 3000 people, QR. It only destroyed two of the finest buildings in the nation, QR. It only damaged the Pentagon, QR. It was only AN ACT OF WAR on the United States.

See, this is my whole point - every single American out there gets unbelievabley worked up over 9/11, and rightfully so, yet you guys let it fly over your head that in the past 6 years, the Middle East has witnessed civilians being killed much more than during 9/11. When 9/11 happened, you went to war and people went nuts, when these things happen in the Arab world, you are surprised that people feel hatred towards you.

Go figure.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Talk to Hezbollah, QR. They deliberately started this conflict, and, when you do so, you take a combatants chances. Lebanon could have solved that problem long ago, but chose not to, at the behest of their masters in Damascus.

Did Hezbollah start the conflict? Yes. But does that justify the murder of a thousands people? Is that what your saying, Falcon, that as long as a country didn't start the conflict, everything is fair game? Then i'm sure this means you support the killing of Americans, whether civilian or military, currently in Iraq, right? I mean, it was them who started the conflict!  Yeah sure

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
A CARTOON led to violence; The Pope quoting words led to violence. And you want me to take you seriously? Everytime someone says they don't like Islam, that part of the world goes banana's, burns American and Israeli flags, screams "Death to America"; pulls out posters of nuts like Khomeini and bin Laden.

The problem is, what I said is the truth. There is such a violent tendancy among many in the Islamic world these days, as to be frightening. That's why I contend that it's the Islamic world pushing the envelope on conflict, not the west, Iraq notwithstanding.

Read my response to ANC in the apologies thread. The problem is, what I said is also the truth - there is a very violent tendency with the US government, and God knows when it will stop. Probably not before both Syria and Iran fall in a similar fashion to Iraq.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Yes, we are, and it'll keep pointing at you. 9/11; USS Cole; Embassy bombings; London; Madrid, etc etc etc. Again, wake p to the reality.

At least these are terrorists, not affiliated with any Arab government, not the government of the world's strongest nation, which has staged or aided countless coups over the past 100 years. And you want me to wake up to the reality? I am fully aware of the reality, I condemn terrorism, I am revolted by things like what happened in Somalia with the Catholic nun, yet I also criticize the US for everything it has done. You, on the other hand, cannot even bring yourself to criticize anything about your country and its history - and I am not talking about Bush or Iraq here.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
We gave the Philippines its independence, dude. And when they asked us to close or military bases there, we complied. So much for that.

No, it is hardly "so much for that", the US committed entire massacres in the Philippines before doing so, and did a lot of damage to the country - just because they eventually left does not mean they did not cause any damage.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Are you denying our legitimate right to war on the nation that protected those who warred on us on 9/11/2001, QR? Afghanistan was and is a perfectly legitimate conflict. Unfortunately, our stupid president took his eye off the ball on that one to go after boogey men that didn't exist in Iraq.

I was talking about Afghanistan during the Soviet era, and how you guys pretty much installed the Taliban.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
No, it is not. And, if it is, you have a funny way of showing it, because you then turn around and support other creeps just as evil as he and Al Qaeda are.

Such as...?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The point is this: the Arab/Islamic world, right now, does NOT want to live and let live with the West. It wants the West to embrace Islam as its faith, which I refuse to do, not out of hatred for that faith, but because I have my own that I believe is The Way, The Truth and The Light; they want the West to accept the law of the Koran in our lands, and I refuse to do that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Keep you law in your lands. They want the U.S. to simply abandon friends and allies, so those friends can be destroyed. I refuse that, as it's morally wrong, and you don't do that to a long-standing friend.

Nobody is trying to force themselves onto you, and this is the most unbelievably hypocritical thing I have heard in a while, an American telling us to keep our law in our lands! Well, whatever happened to spreading freedom and democracy? In almost every single coup or conflict you guys have been involved in the past 100 years, the same thing always applied - they need liberating, we are taking democracy over to them, etc. The only difference is the Arab world is the latest target of the US.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Could you wait a moment while I step behind a bomb proof wall?

Cute, real cute.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
don't care what the lame excuse of the week is. Stop being radical nut jobs who think blowing up civilians is a great way to make an imaginary friend in ethereal space happy enough to donate virgins to you.

Awww, poor MD doesn't like to hear true, bad things being said about his country?  cry 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Silent? Of course not. Most of us remember the video of Muslims cheering after 9/11.

You know, it would help if you read the post:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Not only was it proved false, it is exteremley ironic that you keep bringing that up yet you guys forget about the 15 Israelis that were clapping and cheering on the roof of an NYC building during the attack. Where is the anger towards those 15 Israelis?

Would save you the embarassment. MBC came forward and showed proof that it was a video from its archives showing people cheering while Israel pulled out of Lebanon. Also, if your so pissed off about that, where is your anger towards the Israelis cheering in NYC?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Do I see another damned if you do, damned if you don't, no win scenario for the US?

Yup, I can really see how refusing to condemn even the murder of 27 civilians (mostly women & children) when their residental building was hit is really going to help you guys out  Yeah sure

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
No, I really don't care what happened last century, or last decade. I live now, and won't apologize or explain what people who lived in the past did.

Not surprising that you wouldn't link anything that happens today to the past, and that you do not focus on the past to know how we got here.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Want to explain how he keeps getting funding and shelter then?

Well, it started off with you guys, and after that, don't ask me.Without you guys, we wouldn't have an OBL right now. I never said every single Muslim doesn't support him, but for fuck's sake, there are 1.4 billion of us! Obviously theres going to be some bad apples.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
My neighbors are the biggest A**hole pricks ever to set foot on the planet. I hate the very existence of them. I'm not about to blow their house up, chop off theirs heads, or burn likenesses of them. That's the difference. I'm civil about my differences with them. Can the Muslim world say the same thing about the west?

Well, it depends, if your neighbour took over one room of your house and started breaking it down, then helped your other neighbour attack you, who also took over parts of your house, and then started threatning to attack another 2 rooms in your house, then yes, you would also hate them and defend yourself.

You, like most Americans, try to make it sound like some Muslims don't like the US for a reason.

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 11):
Hmmm. Saddam was an evil dictater and now he's gone - angers peope.

Show me whos angry. What angers people is what happened to Iraq after Saddam left - unless you think its a good thing that Iraq is as it is today?

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
Uh-huh. With a wink and a nudge....gimme a break! You buy that crap?

Whether I buy it or not is irrelevant, it just goes to show that even the extremists condemned it, and that the statement is false.

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
Document please. And again, if you think there was a hint of sincerety in half of those so-called sympathies, I have some swampland in Louisiana to sell you.

I won't go and run a search for you, you can do that yourself, but first you say there were no sympathies, now they aren't sincere, what next? Are you some type of clairvoyant, Slider? Wait, that word might be too big for you... can you read peoples mind, know how sincere they are, and what they actually mean?

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
QUIT PROJECTING!!

This is exactly the crux of the problem....blaming someone else! Stop it! Get over it. Deal with Islam's failings, the trappings of the radical imams, clerics and Islamofascists among you instead of blaming the West, America, Israel, etc....

In other words: WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR WHAT WE DID! Its much easier to just blame it all on you guys and turn a blind eye!

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Idunno...you tell us? More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims than at the hands of "the West" so "you" should be an expert on the topic.

Is this about Muslims dying at the hands of other Muslims?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 14):
First of all-> I stood at the American embassy on the eve of 9/11 2001 here in Copenhagen, and I watched a car of Palestinians screaming past all of us sobbing and flower laying and candle lighting people, screaming yaaaaay and waving a Palestinian flag... And this is here in Copenhagen! So do not give me that shit, so many have spoken about the US finally getting their asses kicked... Even non-Muslims!

I also read posts all over the internet, and on these forums, about how we should be nuked to death, about how the Mideast should be made into a big glass factory, about how we are nothing but camel-humping sand niggers, etc. Does that reflect the point of view of all the West?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 14):
Secondly-> The last sentence is absurd, I really mean that!!

Why? Why don't the Israelis offend you as much as the Palestinians who went driving past the US embassy? Nice to see its fine when your brothers do it but its not when we do.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 14):
Last but not least, if the views expressed in your post are your honest opinions, and not just a provocative response to Falcon84's thread, I must say that I give up on you, I really mean that.

How will I survive?  Yeah sure

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
I note that you don't deny hating us. We get that, loud and clear. Your hatred obscures any other message you may wish to convey

I personally don't hate Americans, I just hate the US government - and this is a sentiment shared by over 90% of the Arab world. When I say "you", I do not mean the American people, I am talking about the government.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 20):
"Israel has the right to exist."


Until you can it appears that getting along with you requires that we permit you to anihilate Israel.

...whiskey tango foxtrot?

Where does Israel's right to exist come into this? Israel knows the conditions for Arabs to accept it, we've put forward a peace deal, its up to them to accept it or not.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Dear Western World;

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):
All I said was use the opportunity to compare the two viewpoints, both of which contain truths and both of which contain subjectively colored opinion, and maybe find a middle ground. In this conflict, more than anywhere else, the truth is somewhere in between the two points of view we have seen presented here. Let's try and find that, iso this useless bickering back and forth, which isn't going to change anybody's point of view on here.

You've been trying hard to get your point across to people, Scorpio!

I've long believed that there is little point in having an opinion about an issue if you are not willing to share it with someone who disagrees with you in an effort to make them at least understand your side, if not to completely change their mind.

I can also say that I can count on one hand the number of times my position has changed someone's mind. It's human nature to grasp one's side of an issue and defend it with more vigor than one would use to try to see the other side of an issue.

Thing is, there are two basic theoretical approaches to eliminating the rift between the two parties: 1) reason, or 2) force. US leaders are convinced that force is the only way. Certainly, one cannot use reason with terroists, but one can with the majority of Islamists. So, in the end, force may be the only way, but according to QR, that approach is the one thing that makes the rift bigger. So if we believe QR, our solution to the problem is the cause of the problem from their side. Tough nut, that.

I see little hope for the majority of people here to admit that the truth lies somewhere in between the two sides, as you've said. However, 99 times out of 100, that is the case, and I don't believe this is the one exception to that.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan

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