qr332
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IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:29 pm

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

...

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.
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MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:36 pm

I'm sure that there's supposed to be a point here... can you please point it out for us?

I hope your point isn't that Isreal fired deadly things into Lebanon, because that's pretty obvious to anyone not dead in the recent past.
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qr332
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 pm

The point is that to all those who still defend the "specific targetting of Hezbollah" theory, this is pretty damn clear evidence of how weapons which caused damage on a wide radius, and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

And also, the point of the thread is to inform things that you in the US won't see.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
"specific targetting of Hezbollah"

Or the specific targeting of the IDF by Helbollah rockets???? Perhaps??? Maybe??? Hmmmm???
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par13del
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:04 pm

This re-inforces my agreement with the Lebanese Govt.'s decision to warn residents not to return to combat area's immediately after the cease-fire was declared, until military units made the area safe.
Sadly, the case of the children loosing limbs while playing with unexploded ordinance within a couple days of the cease-fire shows the wisdom of such a decision.
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
The point is that to all those who still defend the "specific targetting of Hezbollah" theory, this is pretty damn clear evidence of how weapons which caused damage on a wide radius, and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

All weapons kill indiscriminately. It's a point of fact.

Now, perhaps you would try to assert that Israel killed indiscriminately? We will of course require support for that claim. And no, the article doesn't count. Notice a lack of names? No substantiation there.
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ltbewr
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:14 pm

That Israel used such weapons in 'civilian' area makes their already weak moral standpoint even lower over their war against Hezbollah. Fortunately the IDF does have to face strong scrutiny from the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli public and their press to determine if they were immoral in their tactics and actions. Worse is that probably these weapons were supplied from and made in the USA.
Too bad we don't see more Congressional hearings and honesty from the military here in the USA as to our war in Iraq.
 
windshear
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):

You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians
your point please...  Yeah sure

Boaz.
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NAV20
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
All weapons kill indiscriminately. It's a point of fact.

Now, perhaps you would try to assert that Israel killed indiscriminately?

I'm happy to 'assert' it. The cluster-bomb is specifically designed for anti-personnel applications - and they are also actually designed so that a high proportion of them (up to 40%) do NOT explode when they land. The idea of that is that they fulfil what is quaintly called an 'area denial' or 'interdiction' function - they act as booby-traps and prevent the enemy from occupying ground.

Specifically, a Cluster Bomb Unit consists of a container (shell or bomb) which contains large numbers of bomblets. The Unit is designed to split open in the air and scatter the bomblets. Originally the bomblets were designed to arm themselves as they fell (usually by spinning, so that a trigger was cocked) and to explode when they stopped spinning.

However, more modern versions are designed so that a high proportion (up to 40%) do NOT explode when they land. Instead, a trembler fuse is left cocked. They are then likely to explode as soon as someone treads on them, picks them up, or in fact disturbs them in any way.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cluster.htm

In my opinion the indiscriminate use of such weapons over populated civilian areas is quite simply a war crime. All soldiers are trained nowadays to recognise and avoid them; cluster munitions, by their nature, are much more likely to hurt or kill civilians.

Coalition forces used them in Iraq during the second week of Gulf War Two; if any one recalls the case of the unfortunate little boy who lost both his arms, that was one of the results. The same thing is now happening in Lebanon:-

"When the guns went silent in Aitta Shaab, a war-ravaged village close to the Israeli border, three children skipped through the rubble looking for a little fun.

"Hurdling over lumps of crushed concrete and dodging spikes of twisted metal, Sukna, Hassan and Merwa, aged 10 to 12, paused before a curious object. Sukna picked it up. The terrifying blast flung her to the ground, thrusting metal shards into her liver. Hassan's abdomen was cut open. Merwa was hit in the leg and arm.

"We thought it was just a little ball," said Hassan with a hoarse whisper in the intensive care ward at Tyre's Jabal Amel hospital. In the next bed Sukna, a ventilator cupped to her mouth and a tangle of tubes from her arms, said even less."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1854715,00.html

In the nature of things children are likely to account for a high proportion of the casualties which will continue to occur. Next in line are probably people trying to clear the rubble of their homes and villages. The deaths and injuries will continue for many years.
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):
This re-inforces my agreement with the Lebanese Govt.'s decision to warn residents not to return to combat area's immediately after the cease-fire was declared, until military units made the area safe.

This "decision" only was communicated for "insurance purposes". They in the Lebanese government knew precisely well that people wanted to get home, to repair or rebuild their homes, to continue their work, to harvest. They could not wait for a year or two without work and without income and without a real home. They need to repair their homes most urgently to be ready for December with the start of winter.
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
The cluster-bomb is specifically designed for anti-personnel applications

Not true.

Some cluster bombs are anti-personnel. Some are anti-armor, and some are anti-material.

The rest is mostly correct though.

None of that however substantiates that Israel indiscriminately attacked anyone.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In my opinion the indiscriminate use of such weapons over populated civilian areas is quite simply a war crime

Do we have substantiation that this happened?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In the nature of things children are likely to account for a high proportion of the casualties which will continue to occur.

Sounds like a parenting issue to me. Unless... it's normal good parenting to let your child play in the location of a recent arty/air strike...
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
windshear
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):

My G-d you speak only in slogans, and I remember your anti-Israeli sentiment, how do you expect us to take you seriously?

If IDF did something that was not ok, there will be consequences, not so long ago a high ranking military official resigned, many Israelis (including IDF personel) have expressed anger over the handling of the war... I would like to see the final investigation results how ever, before rushing to conclusions like you do.

All I can say, is that the IDF uses cluster bombs and have done so before, as an anti vehicle weapon, not to slaughter civilians as you so insanely claim Israel did.

Oh did people here ever hear that Amnesty called the actions of Hizbollah "war crimes"?? QR did you hear this news?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
NAV20
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Do we have substantiation that this happened?

You obviously didn't read the article in the heading, MDorBust:-

"Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets."

That works out at around 500,000 unexploded bomblets, most of which will be lying in areas that had already been reduced to rubble by air attacks and shelling. About one bomblet for every four men, women, and children who normally live in South Lebanon.

Even if you put in huge numbers of sappers tomorrow, how are they going to clear the mines? With so many buildings smashed into ruins, and shell and bomb fragments scattered everywhere, there'll be so much metal around that the metal detectors will be going off all the time. I'm afraid that the majority of those half-million booby-traps are going to be 'found' the hard way.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Sounds like a parenting issue to me.

I really think you should think more carefully before you make statements like that. Large families (ten or more children) are common among the Shi'tes in South Lebanon. What are parents supposed to do, tell the kids to 'stay in the house'?

For a start, thanks to the Israelis, they probably haven't GOT a house any more.........
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MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
You obviously didn't read the article in the heading, MDorBust:-

I read the article completely. No where in the article does it substantiate the claim that these weapons were used on civilians.

We have a claim by an unidentified person (notice this isn't substantiation) that villages were bombarded. If we are to assume that this mystery person is telling the truth and not a disgruntled soldier looking for headlines, do we know that the villages weren't in fact hezzie positions when they were attacked?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
Even if you put in huge numbers of sappers tomorrow, how are they going to clear the mines?

I would start by using an overpressure device.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
What are parents supposed to do, tell the kids to 'stay in the house'?

Sounds like a good idea. Or, failing that, stay away from bombardment areas. Or, failing the first two, don't go near anything unusual. Or, failing the first three, DON'T TOUCH A CLUSTER MUNITION!

Or, as is more likely and has been the case in Africa and the Balkans on occasion... Don't try and collect the munitions to be sold to various interested parties.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
For a start, thanks to the Israelis, they probably haven't GOT a house any more.........

Yes, yes... Lebanon is just one big homeless morass now that Israel is done with it...  sarcastic 
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NAV20
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
We have a claim by an unidentified person (notice this isn't substantiation) that villages were bombarded.

This is hardly the first time the cluster-bomb problem has been mentioned. If Haaretz doesn't convince you, how about the UN and the International Herald Tribune?

"MAJDAL SELLEM, Lebanon The United Nations on Tuesday urged Israel to hand over more-detailed information about the cluster bombs it fired into Lebanon during the war with Hezbollah, saying at least 350,000 of the unexploded bomblets still pose a deadly risk — and could take more than two years to clear.

"In southern villages like this, demining experts are moving step by step to remove the leftovers from houses, yards and fields. On one recent day, villagers here looked on warily from afar as Tony Wyles, part of a U.N. team, cautiously inspected a small, armed cluster bomb that lay at the foot of a fig tree.

"Every bomb is a challenge, you don't know why it didn't explode ... the slightest movement can trigger it," said Wyles, as he carefully picked up and disarmed the bomblet _a grayish metal cylinder about half the size of a can of soda.

"At least 15 people, including a child, have been killed by cluster bombs in the month since the Aug. 14 cease-fire, the U.N. said Tuesday. Another 83 have been wounded.

"So far, U.N. demining teams have identified 516 cluster bomb strike locations and cleared 17,000 bomblets.

"The task force worries that rains in the coming months will sweep the bomblets downhill to contaminate new areas, or cover them with a thin layer of dirt that will make them invisible.

"The U.N. has harshly criticized Israel for using the cluster bombs, especially in the last hours of the conflict before the cease-fire. The U.S. State Department has said it was investigating whether Israel misused American-made cluster bombs in Lebanon.

"Wyles, who is employed by one of the companies contracted by the U.N., said his team's search around Majdal Sellem was only superficial and focused on removing the most dangerous bombs from houses and gardens.

Another U.N. team would later have to inspect the village and surrounding fields inch by inch.

"I've never seen so many cluster bombs in a civilian area," said Wyles, a 17-year veteran from the British army who said he'd operated in 24 countries."


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...a/ME_GEN_Mideast_Cluster_Bombs.php
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MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
This is hardly the first time the cluster-bomb problem has been mentioned.

Yet again failing to answer the key point. Is there any support anywhere that Israel used these weapons indiscriminately?

Yes, I know what a cluster munition is. Yes, I know what happens after you use a cluster munition. Yes, I know what can happen if you fail to take the proper precautions around a cluster munition. No, none of that does anything to suggest that Israel wasn't using these weapons against legitimate targets. Remember the hezzies were fighting from positions located within civilian areas. The location of these weapons after fighting does not by itself indicate that Israel was indiscriminate in their use.

You have a choice to make now:
A) Keep endlessly linking stories about the "horrors" of cluster munitions proving nothing other than weapons kill, don't play with them. -or-
B) Substantiate the claim that Israel used them indiscriminately.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
many Israelis (including IDF personel) have expressed anger over the handling of the war..

which is nice whenever it is debatable what aspect of that handling they dislike

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
If IDF did something that was not ok, there will be consequences

really ? here I am not so sure. The military leadership will do the investigations and will do whatever to cover any shortcomings

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
one big homeless morass now that Israel is done with it...

rubbish. Homeless are people who lived in the South-of-Litani Lebanon plus Tyrus plus some southern suburbs of Beirut. It is many people, but you still should not embark into making such senseless statements
 
NAV20
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:35 am

Given that cluster-bombs are designed to scatter, the weapon is 'indiscriminate' by nature, MDorBust.

And if you know anything about artillery you'll know that the initial 'fall of shot' can be anywhere within a 100-yard radius of the aiming-point, or more.

It'll be interesting to see if the Israeli Army can or will provide the sort of information requested by the UN. If and when they do, we'll have more evidence to judge whether the fire was 'indiscriminate' or not:-

"The U.N. humanitarian coordinator for Lebanon, David Shearer said Israel could greatly accelerate the overall clearance effort by handing over the coordinates of where it fired the bombs, but has not done so.

"What we'd like is the number of shells that were fired in, and the actual coordinates, so we can go in and short-circuit what we're doing now and go and find those munitions straight away. But that has not happened yet," Shearer told reporters at a news conference in Beirut."
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Alessandro
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:36 am

Well, I hope everyone in Lebanon thinks twice next time someone try to kidnap Israelis in Israel or shoot rockets at Israel. Or the next "victory" will be
costlier for Lebanon.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
but you still should not embark into making such senseless statements

Of course it was a senseless statement. That's why it has a sarcasm emoticon after it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Given that cluster-bombs are designed to scatter, the weapon is 'indiscriminate' by nature, MDorBust.

As I said before. All weapons are indiscriminate. Now, substantiate that the use of the weapon was indescriminate.

And no, that it scatters does not demonstrate so. It scatters within a limited range.
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NAV20
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
All weapons are indiscriminate. Now, substantiate that the use of the weapon was indescriminate.

I suspect that you met yourself coming back with those two sentences, MDorBust.  Smile

In any case, the original Haaretz article covers the point:-

"The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

"MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds.

"The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit."


I've no experience of MLRS. But a 1,200-metre radius of error sounds pretty 'indiscriminate' to me.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
I suspect that you met yourself coming back with those two sentences, MDorBust.

No, it's a significant difference.

Let me explain for you. Discrimination requires intelligence. Weapons do not have intelligence, therefore they can not discriminate. A cluster bomb discriminates as much as a pistol, cruise missile, of LGB. A weapon can be used with discrimination or not. A person who walks into a building and starts firing randomly is indiscriminately shooting. A person who shoots only the armed suspect is using discrimination. Israel shelling hezzie positions is using discrimination. Israel shelling anything in range is being indiscriminate.

Please tell me you've finally caught on.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
In any case, the original Haaretz article covers the point:-

The article doesn't do anything. Remember that whole part about substantiation? Who exactly is making this claim? Mr. Nameless no one. That's who.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
I've no experience of MLRS. But a 1,200-metre radius of error sounds pretty 'indiscriminate' to me.

Maybe the craptastic soviet systems employed by other nations have that margin of error. The M270 system used by Israel is much more accurate.

A six rocket barrage from a M270 system occupies a footprint 200m x 300m
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AA777
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Leba

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 7):

You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians
your point please.

Who the hell is it that DRIVES vehicles??? PEOPLE. Last time I checked, people- CIVILIANS- drive cars. The vast majority of people driving around are not militiants. Yet it is those civilains who will die as a result of land mines. I have not heard of this, and this is truly sickening.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Or the specific targeting of the IDF by Helbollah rockets???? Perhaps??? Maybe??? Hmmmm???

Honestly I dont get you... do you really believe that nothing matters except who 'shot first'? Everything after that has been determined is justified. Nuke 'em, they shot first. It is possible that your whole world is that far contained in the world of the army, and that much more removed from humanity? Sad. But then again you supported the invasion, so, why wouldnt you support Lebanon being littered with Israeli landmines. Who cares right? It will never ever affect you. Its just some Lebanese person who is walking around in the hills one day and will take a wrong step. Boom. There goes a dad. Boom, there goes a Mom, a sister, a brother, a child, an aunt, an uncle, a wife, a husband. Boom. Who cares.

-AA777
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 7):
You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians

vehicles ? Remotely-guided manless vehicles only ?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
And also, the point of the thread is to inform things that you in the US won't see.

Show of hands for those who did not know Hezbollah (who SHOULDNT BE ARMED IN THE FIRST PLACE) purposely located itself in civilian areas.....anyone? Anyone?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
windshear
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
really ? here I am not so sure. The military leadership will do the investigations and will do whatever to cover any shortcomings

Oh ok not surprised to hear this, but you should really have more faith in Israel than you have.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 22):
Who the hell is it that DRIVES vehicles??? PEOPLE. Last time I checked, people- CIVILIANS- drive cars. The vast majority of people driving around are not militiants. Yet it is those civilains who will die as a result of land mines. I have not heard of this, and this is truly sickening.

You are too entangled with thinking negatively and listening to propaganda... If civilians are hit then no, they are not legitimate targets, and are not the vehicles for which these weapons were intended for... But please do understand that Hezbollah was the target, and much of what was targeted was mobile infrastructure carrying fighters, weapons or being mobile launchers, you know- vehicles. Get my drift?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ltbewr
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:37 am

Let us also not forget that Hezbollah sent missiles indiscriminately into Israel, mainly killing a number of civilians and a small number of Israeli troops just south of the Lebanon border.
 
AA777
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 25):
But please do understand that Hezbollah was the target, and much of what was targeted was mobile infrastructure carrying fighters, weapons or being mobile launchers, you know- vehicles. Get my drift?

That is one explanation. But now the war is 'over' and Lebanon is left with a gift that keeps on giving- Landmines that continue to kill civilians. The intent doesnt absolve them of responsibility, if you think that it does, than we can agree to disagree.

-AA777
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 27):
. But now the war is 'over' and Lebanon is left with a gift that keeps on giving- Landmines that continue to kill civilians.

They could always call the Israeli's in to clean them up, they are one of the worlds foremost experts on EOD after all.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
cfalk
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
Fortunately the IDF does have to face strong scrutiny from the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli public and their press to determine if they were immoral in their tactics and actions.

Does Hezbollah face the same scrutiny for its indiscriminate attacks on civilians? I think not.

Quoting AA777 (Reply 22):
Honestly I dont get you... do you really believe that nothing matters except who 'shot first'?

To be quite honest, yes. Israel would have been smart to drop a lot more of these munitions, making the border area where Hezbollah attacked from uninhabitable for years to come, thereby ensuring the security of their people living in Northern Israel. Hopefully, people who lost their homes and property would see who was responsible for their loss - Hezbollah, but I doubt they would be that intelligent. They haven't shown themselves to be so bright so far, tolerating terrorists in their midst.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
windshear
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 27):
Landmines that continue to kill civilians. The intent doesnt absolve them of responsibility, if you think that it does, than we can agree to disagree.

First of all I need to be clear about one thing... When writing "landmines", you actually mean undetonated cluster bombs, right?

If yes, then no it is sad, this whole war is sad for all those it touched who did not have anything to do with it... But that is war, something the people of Hezbollah and their supporters are very good at attracting.

BTW Hezbollah have left many many weapons caches, and have ditched so much warfare material like anti tank missiles and mines you name it... This is what is the aftermath of this war and especially when Hezbollah intendedly pulled in heat to civilian areas, it is horrible and disgusting, but there you have it, that is Hezbollah warfare.

Lets not see a war in the future, I have heard that large scale terror attacks against UNIFIL and IDF troops are feared, lets just hope Hezbollah backs away from their Iran inspired madness.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
rammstein
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Let's send IDF back to clean their mess...  devil 
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
Hezbollah (who SHOULDNT BE ARMED IN THE FIRST PLACE) purposely located itself in civilian areas..

writing in capital-letters is unnecessary. they were armed at a time when Lebanon was powerless, and they were armed by Iran via Syria quite heavily

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 29):
people who lost their homes and property would see who was responsible for their loss - Hezbollah, but I doubt they would be that intelligent. They haven't shown themselves to be so bright so far, tolerating terrorists in their midst.

A) people who lost their home and property know that Hizbullah provoked what came but that Israel is mostly RESPONSIBLE for their problem and that Israel DID the bombing. They mostly did NOT tolerate the terrorists, but in reality had to be happy to be tolerated by Hizbullah. It was the Hizbullah fighters who were armed and NOT the normal people.
 
FOMEA
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Leba

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 31):
Let's send IDF back to clean their mess... devil

Excellent Point.
I am Sure some on this site and (in this thread) will be glad to help.





Regards
F-OMEA.

[Edited 2006-09-19 22:51:36]
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rolfen
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
I'm sure that there's supposed to be a point here... can you please point it out for us?

I hope your point isn't that Isreal fired deadly things into Lebanon, because that's pretty obvious to anyone not dead in the recent past.

Cluster bombs are not "precision weapons", neither are phosphore bombs. Phosphore bombs will spray the area around them with phosphore, which will burn a hole in the clothes and cause deep burns, sometimes to the bone, followed by poisoning due to absorbtion of phosphore in the blood.
A terrible way to die.

Phosphore will combust spontaneously with air, therefore a phosphore bomb might get buried, and then combust when it is unburied years later.
rolf
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 22):
Honestly I dont get you... do you really believe that nothing matters except who 'shot first'?

And I don't get you . . . a comprehension problem perhaps . . .


Let me make it a tad clearer . . .

Firstly, neither side was very careful in what they shot where.

Secondly, QR332 conveniently left out the FACT that Hezbollah also fired indiscriminately into Israel. I simply pointed out the blindingly obvious.

Next?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:28 am

And the fact that most of those Katuysha rockets where submunition armed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
those Katuysha rockets

those rockets were NOT fired by a regular army, and that firing was NOT authorized by the government. While the Israeli actions WERE authorized and even ordered by the government.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
those rockets were NOT fired by a regular army, and that firing was NOT authorized by the government. While the Israeli actions WERE authorized and even ordered by the government.

Irrelevent.

Authorized by the Lebanese Gov't, perhaps not overtly. Condoned,  scratchchin  I think likely. Of course, we've had this conversation before . . . to no end.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:45 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
those rockets were NOT fired by a regular army, and that firing was NOT authorized by the government.

You sure? This report indicates that the Lebanese goverment was told about the kidnapping prior, and were assured by Hez that no retaliation would come from this.

"Interviewer: Did you inform them that you were about to abduct Israeli soldiers?

Hassan Nasrallah: I told them that we must resolve the issue of the prisoners, and that the only way to resolve it is by abducting Israeli soldiers.

Interviewer: Did you say this clearly?

Hassan Nasrallah: Yes, and nobody said to me: "No, you are not allowed to abduct Israeli soldiers." Even if they had told me not to... I'm not defending myself here. I said that we would abduct Israeli soldiers in meetings with some of the main political leaders in the country. I don't want to mention names now, but when the time comes to settle accounts, I will. They asked: "If this happens, will the issue of the prisoners be over and done with?" I said that it was logical that it would. And I'm telling you, our estimation was not mistaken. I'm not exaggerating. Anywhere in the world - show me a country, show me an army, show me a war, in which two soldiers, or even civilian hostages, were abducted, and a war was waged against a country - and all for two soldiers. This has never happened throughout history, and even Israel has never done such a thing."

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1200
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 38):
Authorized by the Lebanese Gov't, perhaps not overtly. Condoned

Neither authorized nor condoned. But the government could not prevent it

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 39):
You sure? This report indicates that the Lebanese goverment was told about the kidnapping prior, and were assured by Hez that no retaliation would come from this.

Nasrullah told the government just shortly before his folks did it, and he did NOT tell it as a proposition or a discussion topic but simply as an information.
-
Beside the point that I do NOT really believe him generally. I however indeed believe that he did NOT expect the Israelis to react in such a way.
 
cfalk
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
those rockets were NOT fired by a regular army, and that firing was NOT authorized by the government.

They were fired by a private Army which the Lebanese government did nothing to stop.

If a private militia formed in the US, bought some weapons and setup near the border to Canada or Mexico, it would be the responsibility of the US government to put a stop to it. The lebanese government (and people) shirked their responsibility and paid the price for their stupidity.

You don't allow independent militias to exist inside your country - any country. Period.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
Neither authorized nor condoned. But the government could not prevent it

Like I said, we've had this conversation before - to no end. We disagree. The government shouldn't have let a terrorist organization into their midst in the first place . . . the owness is on them and the Hezbollah . . . and the suppliers of the weapons to terrorists . . . period . . . dot.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 41):
You don't allow independent militias to exist inside your country - any country.

basically true, except that the Lebanese government never allowed them into the country. They simply were in at the end of the civil war. The government was in negotiations with them to give up both their attacks against Israel and their separate armed militia.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
The government shouldn't have let a terrorist organization into their midst in the first place . .

"let" sounds like admitting willingly, not having no influence in a particular and rather remote area.
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 34):
Cluster bombs are not "precision weapons", neither are phosphore bombs.

Neither is a 1000lb laser guided bomb. If you care to argue the point may I suggest thinking about what would happen to a person standing twenty feet from one that detonates. Not very precise. Somehow in recent years people have come up with the idea that military grade weapons can somehow be used to the effect of killing only single people who were chosen specifically. A rediculous presumption.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
miamiair
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:52 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

Like the rockets Hezbollah fired into Israel?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 45):
and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

Like the rockets Hezbollah fired into Israel?

-
exactly like those, but Mr Nasrullah in at least this point was honest as he never claimed that his rockets were precise
 
AA777
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):


Secondly, QR332 conveniently left out the FACT that Hezbollah also fired indiscriminately into Israel. I simply pointed out the blindingly obvious.

Frankly.... what is "BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS" is that Hezbollah didnt leave the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of land mines laying around Israeli land for their citizens to step on and get killed by. So... your FACT is invalid because they did not use the same weapons. You want to put them on the same playing field...when in fact what Israel did to Lebanon, and to the Lebanese people was MUCH MUCH worse in real terms- civilian casualties and damage to property and infrastructure. Those are the 'facts'.

-AA777
 
MDorBust
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting AA777 (Reply 47):
what is "BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS" is that Hezbollah didnt leave the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of land mines laying around Israeli land for their citizens to step on and get killed by.

You write this as if the hezzies made the choice not to do so based on some moral superiority.

Answer this: Given the technological and logistical capability to field the same munitions Israel did, do you think the hezzies would have done exactly the same thing?

I'll answer for you. Of course they would. And unlike Israel, the hezzies would have thrown a party every time a civilian found a munition.

And please, stop referring to the cluster munitions as land mines. They aren't. The only land mines in this conflict were deployed by the hezzies.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
baroque
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RE: IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Leba

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Sounds like a parenting issue to me.

I really think you should think more carefully before you make statements like that. Large families (ten or more children) are common among the Shi'tes in South Lebanon. What are parents supposed to do, tell the kids to 'stay in the house'?

For a start, thanks to the Israelis, they probably haven't GOT a house any more.........

I admire Nav20's patience and clarity in setting out an issue. I find some of the responses to the thread starter and to Nav so callous and appalling that I am out of here. I will message Nav and MAF and others who appear to understand what area denial is about.

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