ANCFlyer
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Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:29 pm

I had intended to post this in Cedars thread on the Pope's invitation, but perhaps it merits it's own thread. . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/25/pope.muslims/index.html


The pope told the envoys that "our future" depends on dialogue between Christians and Muslims.

Attending the meeting were representatives from Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and Morocco -- as well as members of Italy's Muslim community. Also presents wer ediplomats from Indonesia, where Christian-Muslim tensions were further heightened last week by the execution of three Catholic militants.

Benedict last month had appealed for the men's lives to be spared. (Full story)

Iraq's envoy to Vatican said after Monday's meeting with Benedict that "it is now time to put what happened behind (us) and build bridges," The Associated Press reported.

"The Holy Father stated his profound respect for Islam. This is what we were expecting," said Iraqi envoy Albert Edward Ismail Yelda.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):

and here the same news but from
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EB439435-E5EE-4D32-AF
-
*****************************************************
Pope Benedict XVI has met Muslim diplomats in Rome as part of the Catholic church's latest effort to mend relations with the Islamic world.
---
In an audience aimed at defusing anger over his recent speech, which was widely perceived to have depicted Islam as violent, Pope Benedict told Muslim envoys on Monday that Christian and Muslim believers must reject all forms of violence. He expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith.
---
Diplomatic envoys from 22 Muslim countries plus the leaders of Italy's own Muslim community met the pontiff at his summer residence in Castelgandolfo.
--
Federico Lombardi, Benedict's spokesman, said the meeting was "certainly a sign that dialogue is returning to normal after moments of ... misunderstanding."
--
The meeting was to address widespread Muslim anger at a speech the pope made on 12 September, when he quoted the words of a Byzantine emperor who said some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad were "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith." Benedict said that his remarks were taken out of context and that he regretted that Muslims were offended.
--
****************************************************
-
Looks as if things improve again
 
halls120
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 1):
Looks as if things improve again

Sure, as long as we all ignore the outburst of violence that invariably seems to follow every instance of Islam being "insulted" or "denigrated."

Somehow, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture of all those "death to the Pope" signs I saw on TV from people who claim to be insulted because the Pope - in their eyes - accused Islam of being a violent religion.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture

you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............
 
Falcon84
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 1):
Looks as if things improve again

Sure, as long as we all ignore the outburst of violence that invariably seems to follow every instance of Islam being "insulted" or "denigrated."

Amen to that. It's one thing to say "hey, I don't agree with that. I think we need clarification or an apology." It's another to say "Death To The Pope!", and go out and become violent over it.

Islam still has to come out of its own Dark Ages here, before it can maturely deal with the rest of the world. It hasn't shown the ability to do that so far.

Either way, the dialogue is certainly not a negative thing. Maybe the Muslim Clerics need to tell their flocks that there's one way for the world to be convinced that Islam isn't a voilent religion-and that's by abstaining from such violence.
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
"Death To The Pope!", and go out and become violent over it.

Islam still has to come out of its own Dark Ages here,

you here embark on generalisations. To jump from some people who got extreme to think they were the majority is inappropriate and incorrect. And this time, matters remained peaceful in most places of the world except Palestine and one case in Somalia. But what NEEDED to get calmed down were the widespread emotions.
 
halls120
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture

you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............

Perhaps if the scene was an occasional one, it would be easier to disregard.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
the scene was an occasional one

it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.
 
NWA742
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

 rotfl 




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usnseallt82
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Do you really think this?





 crazy  crazy  crazy 
Crye me a river
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 9):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Do you really think this?

Yes of course. You can hardly describe two such affairs as a "mass-habit" .
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:17 am

Good Move.It takes courage to do that.
regds
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
You can hardly describe two such affairs as a "mass-habit"

Riiiight......so a lifetime of protesting the West with death threats and burning flags wouldn't be considered a "mass-habit?"
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 12):
a lifetime of protesting the West with death threats and burning flags

"a lifetime of protesting .... death threats" ? you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits
 
NWA742
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
therefore are NOT mass-habits






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Falcon84
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
you here embark on generalisations. To jump from some people who got extreme to think they were the majority is inappropriate and incorrect.

Show me where I said it was a majority? Show me? But come on! You make it sound like a tiny isolated thing, which it was definitely not. There were protests all over the Islamic world, and many of them got violent or carried out violence-all to prove Islam isn't violent. Uh, OK.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Whatever. You cannot argue with an apologists for these people, which you've constantly shown yourself to be, MAF.

This stuff happens all the time in the region; be it to protest Israel, or the U.S., or "the follower of the cross", or any reason that seems useful at the moment.

Take the blinders off.
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windshear
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
"a lifetime of protesting .... death threats" ? you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits

Gotta love the logic of an eternal apologist... Big grin

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L410Turbolet
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:34 am

The real question is whether Pope's invitation is perceived by the Muslims as a sign of good will or a sign of his weakness and surrender to their screams and burning of effigies?
 
searpqx
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits

The fact that they are separated by a few months doesn't change the fact that every time there is a perceived slight to Islam, mass protests erupt across the Muslim world. This is consistent behaviour demonstrated over many years.

The fact is, there is only one major world religion that this behaviour is endemic to, and while I don't argue that its a small percentage of the overall population that participate in these protests, the protests none the less occur. There is a saying that 'Perception is Reality', and in this case the perception is that the Muslim world reacts, always with threats and frequently with violence, to any criticism. Until the apologists quit distancing themselves from the actions of those using the name of Islam, the perception will remain.
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
The real question is whether Pope's invitation is perceived by the Muslims as a sign of good will or a sign of his weakness and surrender to their screams and burning of effigies?

Good point, I think by granting these folks an audience, it just goes to show that thier childish fits actually accomplish things. I work all day with kids, I learned a long time ago that bending to a child when they act this way accomplishes little, but it does reinforce that bad behavior because it justifies those actions. The Pope should have just said I am sorry, despite not intending to offend the muslim people, I did. That was not what I meant, I am sorry. There, done, end of story. Now... I can see sometimes why protests erupt, Abu Graib.... sure burn down your own neighborhood and some effigees that look like a retarded 8 year old put together, thats fine, but to freak out over some cartoons or what ever someone says, well thats childish.
I am begining to think there are some major self-inadequatcy issues among the 14-40 muslim male age group.
 
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
The Pope should have just said I am sorry

but bother to read my entire speech

and/or

but your violent reaction, murders and threats indeed proved Manuel II Paleologus to be correct in his observations
 
windshear
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
I am begining to think there are some major self-inadequatcy issues among the 14-40 muslim male age group.

There are, I would say "father figure" issues. Great wrath and inferiority complex' all together in one big bowl.

Boaz.
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Falcon84
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:52 am

I'm glad the Holy Father had this meeting, but I don't honestly see what he has to apologize for: he is, after all, in this sect of the Christian world, the "defender of the faith" if you will. In the minds of Christians, there is a lot of respect for the other peoples' of The Book, but we also believe that neither is correct in their overall teachings-just as they feel the same way as well.

I don't see anyone calling for apologies of Muslims who have labled Christians and Jews "infidels", even though we, in essence, are not; I don't see any violence breaking out when militant groups tell the Pope he is doomed, or are screaming "Death To The Pope!".

Seems to me, honestly, that many in the Islamic world are over sensitive either 1. because they have thin-skins, or 2. because they ARE looking for some reason to wreak some havoc.

And if the Islamic world doesn't like the fact that Christians and Jews don't think Mohammed was the great Prophet, well, that's just the way it is. I don't think he was the great Prophet. I believe Jesus was, and also was the Son of God. But you won't see the Christian world go ape if someone in the Islamic world says that.
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solnabo
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:57 am

Freedom of speach is something that will never ever happend in the muslim world, add democracy..

They´re stuck in the dark ages w/ mufti´s imams ayatollo´s ruling their country.

 twocents 

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NoUFO
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
I'm glad the Holy Father had this meeting, but I don't honestly see what he has to apologize for:

And I honestly think he didn't invite them to apologize for what he said.
It would be entirely wrong to consider the Pope's offer a sign of "weakness".

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............

In this case I agree with you.
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halls120
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
"a lifetime of protesting .... death threats" ? you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits

I forget - how long did Salman Rushdie live under a fatwa?

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 18):
The fact that they are separated by a few months doesn't change the fact that every time there is a perceived slight to Islam, mass protests erupt across the Muslim world. This is consistent behaviour demonstrated over many years.

 checkmark 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
I forget - how long did Salman Rushdie live under a fatwa?

Isn't he still under it?

You'll have to forgive MAF, Halls. After all, he still thinks that Syria (snicker) is one of the great cogs in the fight AGAINST terrorism.

He can't help himself.
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NoUFO
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
Isn't he still under it?

No, the fatwa against him was lifted, but some bigots are still after him, which is why his whereabouts are still confidential. Effectively, nothing much has changed.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
Salman Rushdie live under a fatwa?

no idea. It was just an Iranian affair of no relevance elsewhere, so what.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
no idea. It was just an Iranian affair of no relevance elsewhere, so what.

An Iranian affair in trying to murder someone on the soil of another nation. Yeah, so what.

You are incredible in your blindness towards such people.
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
Iranian affair in trying to murder someone on the soil of another nation.

Whatever, an affair concerning Iran and the U.K., but of no relevance to the Arab World.
 
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
Whatever, an affair concerning Iran and the U.K., but of no relevance to the Arab World.

And there is where you completly miss the point: this is a great example of how the Arab/Islamic world is operating these days: someone says something they don't like, and it's time to use violence to solve it-be it trying to murder Rushdie, or threatening death to the Pope, or blowing up busses in Tel Aviv.

It is COMPLETELY relevant to the Arab world.

And there is where your logic fails you, because you can't see the connection. Actually, I think you do, but you don't want to see it, so you wish it away to assuage your own conscience with your point of view.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):

It is COMPLETELY relevant to the Arab world.

NO, it has nothing to do with the Arab World at all. It is something just between Iran and Britain
 
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
And there is where you completly miss the point

Don't tell me you are surprised? It's the same guy who claimed the attacks on Danish embassies were nothing serious becuase the buildings were not burned-down completely just damaged. As if that's of any imporance...  Yeah sure
 
searpqx
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
It was just an Iranian affair of no relevance elsewhere, so what.

No, it was a Fatwa, issued because the book was blasphemous against Islam. The fact that it was issued in Iran doesn't change the fact that it was done in the name of Islam. Additionally, there were protests and violence around the world, perpetrated by Muslims offended by the work.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
NO, it has nothing to do with the Arab World at all. It is something just between Iran and Britain

Ah, so when a westerner characterizes Muslim actions as the Arab World, we are wrong and reminded (correctly) that the Muslim world contains more non-Arabs than Arabs. But when a non-Arab Muslim commits an act in the name of Islam, its not an issue it doesn't matter, because they're not Arabs?
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windshear
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 33):
Don't tell me you are surprised? It's the same guy who claimed the attacks on Danish embassies were nothing serious becuase the buildings were not burned-down completely just damaged. As if that's of any imporance

Well it does matter to an apologist Big grin

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jaysit
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:40 am

At these meetings, people of all faiths should remember these four fundamental religious truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.
2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.
4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.
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halls120
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 34):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 32):
NO, it has nothing to do with the Arab World at all. It is something just between Iran and Britain

Ah, so when a westerner characterizes Muslim actions as the Arab World, we are wrong and reminded (correctly) that the Muslim world contains more non-Arabs than Arabs. But when a non-Arab Muslim commits an act in the name of Islam, its not an issue it doesn't matter, because they're not Arabs?

Excellent point. Can't wait to see the response to this one.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 36):
At these meetings, people of all faiths should remember these four fundamental religious truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.
2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.
4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.

 rotfl 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:26 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 34):
a Fatwa

a Fatwa is a religious declaration, only valid in the country where it was issued, and for the nationals of that particular country, not for all of Islam

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 34):
when a non-Arab Muslim commits an act in the name of Islam, its not an issue it doesn't matter, because they're not Arabs?

It was an affair in Iran, but not in the Arab World. "Protests all over the world" ? Well, if you wish to declare Iran and Iranian nationals abroad as "the world", you can do so.
 
searpqx
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
a Fatwa is a religious declaration, only valid in the country where it was issued, and for the nationals of that particular country, not for all of Islam

All well and good, but none the less, the Ayatollah issued the Fatwa in the name of Islam, not in the name of Iran. Or are you saying that the religion practised in Iran isn't really Islam?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
"Protests all over the world" ? Well, if you wish to declare Iran and Iranian nationals abroad as "the world", you can do so.

From The Wikipedia entry on Rushdie:
Meanwhile, further violence occurred around the world, with the firebombing of bookstores. Muslim communities throughout the world held public rallies in which copies of the book were burned. Several people associated with translating or publishing the book were attacked and seriously injured or killed.
[snip]In July, 1991, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese translator of the Satanic Verses was stabbed to death, while the Italian translator Ettore Capriolo survived a similar attack with serious wounds. The Norwegian publisher, William Nygaard, was seriously injured with a shot in October, 1993.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:29 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 39):

Seems to me someone fucked up that "Iran Only" fatwah, eh?  sarcastic 
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:15 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 39):
the Ayatollah issued the Fatwa in the name of Islam

illegal, he canNOT do such things in the name of Islam as his Fatwa
> A) is only valid in Iran and for Iranians
> B) is NOT valid for Sunnis, only relevant for Shi'ites
-
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
illegal, he canNOT do such things in the name of Islam as his Fatwa

Doesn't explain this now does it . . .

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 39):
From The Wikipedia entry on Rushdie:
Meanwhile, further violence occurred around the world, with the firebombing of bookstores. Muslim communities throughout the world held public rallies in which copies of the book were burned. Several people associated with translating or publishing the book were attacked and seriously injured or killed.
[snip]In July, 1991, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese translator of the Satanic Verses was stabbed to death, while the Italian translator Ettore Capriolo survived a similar attack with serious wounds. The Norwegian publisher, William Nygaard, was seriously injured with a shot in October, 1993.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:01 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 16):
Gotta love the logic of an eternal apologist...

 bigthumbsup 

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 23):
Freedom of speach is something that will never ever happend in the muslim world, add democracy..

They´re stuck in the dark ages w/ mufti´s imams ayatollo´s ruling their country.

 checkmark 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
Doesn't explain this now does it . . .
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 39):
From The Wikipedia entry on Rushdie:
Meanwhile, further violence occurred around the world, with the firebombing of bookstores. Muslim communities throughout the world held public rallies in which copies of the book were burned. Several people associated with translating or publishing the book were attacked and seriously injured or killed.
[snip]In July, 1991, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese translator of the Satanic Verses was stabbed to death, while the Italian translator Ettore Capriolo survived a similar attack with serious wounds. The Norwegian publisher, William Nygaard, was seriously injured with a shot in October, 1993.

Well, there WERE some ugly incidents, but "violence around the world" is an immense exaggeration. And the assassination attempts possibly were organized by the same office.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 23):
Freedom of speach is something that will never ever happend in the muslim world, add democracy..
--
They�re stuck in the dark ages w/ mufti�s imams ayatollo�s ruling their country.

There is democracy in many Muslim countries, and freedom of speech also. And with the exceptions of Iran and Saudi Arabia, practically none is ruled by the clerics. And many have secularist state laws.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
and freedom of speech also.

 Yeah sure
 
halls120
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
There is democracy in many Muslim countries, and freedom of speech also. And with the exceptions of Iran and Saudi Arabia, practically none is ruled by the clerics. And many have secularist state laws.

Freedom in the middle east? A relative term, it seems. Here's how the BBC ranks the middle east, with 10 being the most free, and 1 the least free:

INDEX OF POLITICAL FREEDOM
Israel: 8.20
Lebanon: 6.55
Morocco: 5.20
Iraq: 5.05
Palestine: 5.05
Kuwait: 4.90
Tunisia: 4.60
Jordan: 4.45
Qatar: 4.45
Egypt: 4.30
Sudan: 4.30
Yemen: 4.30
Algeria: 4.15
Oman: 4.00
Bahrain: 3.85
Iran: 3.85
UAE: 3.70
Saudi Arabia: 2.80
Syria: 2.80
Libya: 2.05

And while muslim countries are becoming more free, the overall situation isn't all that rosy: "The steady record of progress observed represents a powerful argument against the proposition that Islam is incompatible with democracy or is an impediment to the spread of freedom. Indeed, there has been a striking improvement in the level of freedom in majority Muslim countries over the past ten years. In 1995, 1 majority Muslim country was Free, 13 were Partly Free, and 32, or 70 percent, were Not Free. For 2005, the figures are 3 Free countries, 20 Partly Free, and 23 Not Free."
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 46):
all that rosy

not rosy, no really not. But improving.
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And now to that list :
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* strange that Iraq (!) figures above countries like Jordan and Egypt and Algeria (Algeria with real democracy now)
* strange that Tunisia with the rulership of Mr BenAli figures above Jordan, Egypt, Algeria and the UAE
* strange that Saudi Arabia appears above Syria, where at least religious freedom is around
* strange that the military dictatorship of Sudan figures above the democratically elected president of Algeria
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>> in short, that list quite obviously is total and absolute and definite RUBBISH
-
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
* strange that Iraq (!) figures above countries like Jordan and Egypt and Algeria (Algeria with real democracy now)

That's because Iraq has been invaded by Western countries?

Also you probably look at freemdom as a different thing than we do. That might explain why you are confused about the research done by BBC.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 48):
confused about the research done by BBC.

I am NOT confused about it, I regard that study as absolute gross nonsense.

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