NWDC10
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A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:35 am

The bill:

* Redefines surveillance so that only programs that catch the substance of a communication need oversight. Any government surveillance that captures, analyzes and stores patterns of communications such as phone records, or e-mail and website addresses, is no longer considered surveillance.
* Expands the section of law that allows the attorney general to authorize spying on foreign embassies, so long as there's no "substantial likelihood" that an American's communication would be captured.
* Repeals the provision of federal law that allows the government unfettered wiretapping and physical searches without warrants or notification for 15 days after a declaration of war. The lack of any congressional restraint on the president's wartime powers arguably puts the president at the height, rather than the ebb, of his powers in any time of war, even an undeclared one.
* Repeals the provision of federal law that limits the government's wartime powers to conduct warrantless wiretapping and physical searches to a period of 15 days after a declaration of war.
* Repeals the provision of federal law that puts a time limit on the government's wartime powers to conduct warrantless wiretapping and physical searches against Americans. Under current law, the president has that power for only 15 days following a declaration of war.
* Allows the attorney general, or anyone he or she designates, to authorize widespread domestic spying, such as monitoring all instant-messaging systems in the country, so long as the government promises to delete anything not terrorism-related.
* Moves all court challenges to the NSA surveillance program to a secretive court in Washington, D.C., comprised of judges appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Only government lawyers would be allowed in the courtroom.
* Allows the government to get warrants for surveillance programs as a whole, instead of having to describe to a judge the particular persons to be monitored and the methods to be used.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71778-0.html?tw=wn_technology_3

Robert NWDC10
 
AirCop
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:55 am

So much for the tough talk for Sen. Specter, seem he gave the White House everything they wanted and more. Another sad day for American's Civil Libertys in the name of the War on Terror.
 
searpqx
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:24 am

I haven't seen the actual bill, but if its as described above, this pretty much puts to rest the right wing question of, "What Specific Liberties Have You Lost"?
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
"What Specific Liberties Have You Lost"?

Ditto.

Please explain . . .

What liberties are now lost on you?

If you're not a criminal asshole, associating with other criminal assholes, go on about your business.

If the gov't wants to see my dirty text messasges between what ever bimbo of the week I have and myself - fine . . . what the hell do I care.

If the gov't wants to monitor my weekly call to Dominoes pizza and knows I prefer Hawaiian Pizza over Meatball, so what.

If the gov't can save ONE american life because they intercepted a terrorist transmission, fine by me.

Much ado about nothing - as long as you're not breaking the law . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Jalto27R
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):

A couple months ago we found out guys were trying to design a plan built around liquid explosives going off in multiple planes, killing hundreds if not thousands, and you are concerned the government is reading your text messages, and making sure you not planning a terrorist attack on your phone?

What's more important to you? Not having your phone tapped, or keeping more Americans from dying? I hate to narrow it down to that, but prove me wrong. Yoy want better intelligence, but you don't want it to require any sacrifice on your part. Talk about NIMBY on drugs.

Mike
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:46 am

All these references to the declaration of war have me confused. We haven't actually had a declaration of war recently, or did I sleep in and miss it somehow?
What's fair is fair.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:33 pm

So, what if the government wants to put a camera in your house and access your medical records?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Much ado about nothing - as long as you're not breaking the law . . . . .

On many levels I agree, but it's a very slippery slope.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
access your medical records?

I'm a VA retiree . . . too late to argue now . . .

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 6):
On many levels I agree, but it's a very slippery slope.

Concur. It bears considerable watching and monitoring. Fortunately, it will be around if the Democrats win the White House . . .

So this is NOT a Republican tool, it is a Bi-Partisan tool, that if used properly - by either side of the aisle - can save lives and help eliminate terrorist threats . . . if used properly. Therein lies the rub.

Still, my original thoughts apply:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
searpqx
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 4):
I hate to narrow it down to that, but prove me wrong. Yoy want better intelligence, but you don't want it to require any sacrifice on your part.

And yet we've fought multiple wars, been involved with terrorism since the 70s and the government hasn't had the need to have unfettered rights to tap our phones and monitor our communications.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
What liberties are now lost on you?

If I'm reading the above correctly, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not a legal scholar, during a time of war, the government now has the unfettered right to monitor and search anyone, including US Citizens, without warrent or showing cause. Additionaly, the AG can authorize the same, even in peace time, as long as they don't keep anything 'not related to terrorism'.

Both of these, to me at least, directly contrevene the IV Amendment.

I'm going to look up the actual text of the bill tonight and try and get a better understanding of it.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
cairo
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
What liberties are now lost on you?

As your repeated posts and attitude against civil liberties attest, without limits on cops, they can and will search and seize whoever they like without regard to anything but their own redneck outlook. Unregulated cops are only half a step above criminals, and very often become criminals - as history and the situation in other countries proves.

Not only will cops be left free to do what they like, which is the opposite situation of a free democracy, the police will become tools of whichever despot manages to gain political power - again as history and the state of unfree nations suggest.

IF this bill was only about electronic communications, you might arguably have a point - but it is also about PHYSICAL SEARCHES, giving cops the right to go wherever they want, whenever they want - which given what cops are and historically have done, must absolutely be avoided if democracy is to be retained.

The COMPLETE failure of democracy is when the police have complete power - this bill moves us very much closer to this failure by allowing warrantless physical searches.

The more power the police have, the weaker a democracy is - because democracy means the ability to get rid of its current government and even the police force, which the government and police are always trying to avoid.

Cairo
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):

Thanks for your opinion.

Now, can you answer the question I posed?

What civil liberties have you lost???

Has there been any direct affect on you???

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):
As your repeated posts and attitude against civil liberties attest, without limits on cops, they can and will search and seize whoever they like without regard to anything but their own redneck outlook

 laughing 

Please demonstrate my attitude against civil liberties. Because I don't think criminal terrorist pieces of shit deserve any liberties above free air? Because I don't subscribe to bleeding heart mentality - like yours - that we have to be politically correct ass kissers to everyone? Because I believe if we save one life by monitoring some extremists phone calls it's a good idea?

That makes me anti-civil liberty! And a redneck. Laughable. Assinine and laughable.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):
but it is also about PHYSICAL SEARCHES, giving cops the right to go wherever they want, whenever they want

BUZZ, go read it again. You're missing the boat . . . but I'll let you figure it out. There are restrictions . . . go look for them.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 9):
which given what cops are

Just what are cops, if I might ask?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 8):
And yet we've fought multiple wars, been involved with terrorism since the 70s and the government hasn't had the need to have unfettered rights to tap our phones and monitor our communications.

Have there been any changes in world communications in the last 20 years??? Communications are completely different than the previous wars we fought. There was no internet and widespread cell phone use during the 91 Gulf War.
 
padraighaz
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Please demonstrate my attitude against civil liberties. Because I don't think criminal terrorist pieces of shit deserve any liberties above free air? Because I don't subscribe to bleeding heart mentality - like yours - that we have to be politically correct ass kissers to everyone? Because I believe if we save one life by monitoring some extremists phone calls it's a good idea?

Asked and answered.

As for your concern for saving lives, I assume you must be a strong advocate for Universal Healthcare.
 
itsjustme
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 4):
A couple months ago we found out guys were trying to design a plan built around liquid explosives going off in multiple planes, killing hundreds if not thousands

"We" found out guys were trying to design a plan..."? Sorry, but is that not a United States flag you are flying? Wasn't it the Brits who were key in exposing the terror plot? I think the closest the U.S. has come to exposing a terror plot has been 4 wannabe terrorists in FL who made some suspicious comments to UC FBI agents and a couple of other guys in, OH I believe it was, who were caught with numerous stolen cell phones in their possession (which, by the way, resulted in zero terror-related charges being filed).

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
If the gov't wants to see my dirty text messasges between what ever bimbo of the week I have and myself - fine . . . what the hell do I care.

If the gov't wants to monitor my weekly call to Dominoes pizza and knows I prefer Hawaiian Pizza over Meatball, so what.

I, too, have nothing to hide (although I DO like Hawaiian pizza). However, to be brutally honest, I do not trust these intrusive 'liberties' with my right to privacy in the hands of the current administration. Do I care if my text messages to Michelle Pfeiffer begging her to return my calls are monitored by the Feds? Not really. But who's to say today's monitoring of my text messages won't be tomorrows forcing entry into my home in the name of the war on terror? An extreme comparison? Maybe. But if 5 years ago someone had told me I would have to be concerned about the government reading my emails, monitoring my phone calls, text messages, etc...I would have suggested they get fitted for a tinfoil hat.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 13):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Please demonstrate my attitude against civil liberties. Because I don't think criminal terrorist pieces of shit deserve any liberties above free air? Because I don't subscribe to bleeding heart mentality - like yours - that we have to be politically correct ass kissers to everyone? Because I believe if we save one life by monitoring some extremists phone calls it's a good idea?

Asked and answered.

Well, then I call  redflag  on that . . . doesn't make me anti-civil liberties - it makes me smarter than most others . . if being a non-asskissing terrorist hating law abiding citizen makes me anti-civil liberties, well - piss on it - it's better than the alternative.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 14):
, too, have nothing to hide (although I DO like Hawaiian pizza). However, to be brutally honest, I do not trust these intrusive 'liberties' with my right to privacy in the hands of the current administration. Do I care if my text messages to Michelle Pfeiffer begging her to return my calls are monitored by the Feds? Not really. But who's to say today's monitoring of my text messages won't be tomorrows forcing entry into my home in the name of the war on terror? An extreme comparison?

Hence the need to closely scrutinize and monitor this program . . . CLOSELY monitored.

Send me Michelle's number will ya  silly . Maybe if she won't return your calls she'll return mine.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
padraighaz
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:53 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
if being a non-asskissing terrorist hating law abiding citizen makes me anti-civil liberties,

No, it makes you complicit to undermining our values and freedoms at the altar of Security, and someone who simplisticly assumes there are only two possibilities - being a non-asskissing terrorist hating law abiding citizen or a defender of civil liberties that presumably kisses terrorist ass. The world is more complex than this.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
if being a non-asskissing terrorist hating law abiding citizen makes me anti-civil liberties,

No, it makes you complicit to undermining our values and freedoms at the altar of Security, and someone who simplisticly assumes there are only two possibilities - being a non-asskissing terrorist hating law abiding citizen or a defender of civil liberties that presumably kisses terrorist ass. The world is more complex than this.

 sarcastic 

I've been called worse by better people - lots better people.

I'm happy then - being complicit - and I'm secure as well. Can you say the same.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
itsjustme
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Hence the need to closely scrutinize and monitor this program . . . CLOSELY monitored.

Agreed but when you have an administration that has been as secretive (perhaps even misleading) as the current one has about it's "war on terror" practices, how do you suggest we do that? Hence, my lack of trust.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Send me Michelle's number will ya . Maybe if she won't return your calls she'll return mine.

Apparently you already have it. Bitch just texted me back. Said something about needing a parka and a dogsled team to visit the man of her dreams.
 
itsjustme
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:32 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 10):
given what cops are and historically have done,

The hell does this comment mean? "Given what cops are and historically have done"? Well, historically, in the last 96 hours Cairo, I have assisted in the birth of a child, interrupted an armed robbery in progress and apprehended the shithead (and cleared 3 other "open" armed robberies in the process) and interceded in a domestic violence incident in which the female half was in the process of being beaten to death at the hands of her drunken husband and a Louisville Slugger. Is that what you meant when you said "what cops are and historically have done"?
 
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scbriml
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Hence the need to closely scrutinize and monitor this program . . . CLOSELY monitored.

And there's the rub.

To quote Juvenal "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" Who shall guard the guards themselves?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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columba
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:47 pm

Dear ANC Flyer,

you can not put a whole nation an entire continent under general suspicion just to get 2-3 terrorists. It is not reasonable
Having worked with a D.A. I know how useful it is to listen to the phone calls of a suspect but this is a very restricted option in Germany. It can only be directed by a judge (not by the police or a prosecutor) and there must be the high possibility of the perpetration of a felony (and not all crimes justify the monitoring of the telecommunictaion). Afterwards the suspect had to be informed that the police was monititoring his phone calls, e-mails etc..
America always was a country that put a huge stress on liberal rights and less interferance by the state as possible. By giving up these rights you are giving up what has made the US special over the years and the US would not be the land of the free anymore but land of the fear where everybody who has a telephone and internet is a potential suspect.

Regards
Columba
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halls120
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:12 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 8):
If I'm reading the above correctly, and I'll be the first to admit I'm not a legal scholar, during a time of war, the government now has the unfettered right to monitor and search anyone, including US Citizens, without warrent or showing cause. Additionaly, the AG can authorize the same, even in peace time, as long as they don't keep anything 'not related to terrorism'.

Before everyone overreacts, I would like to point out that what everyone is talking about is SB2453, the National Security Surveillance Act. It has only been voted out of committee. It hasn't been taken up by the full Senate, nor has it been sent to Conference, or signed by the President.

IOW, let's wait to see what the final law says before jumping off the deep end.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
itsjustme
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
IOW, let's wait to see what the final law says before jumping off the deep end.

While I agree that jumping off the deep end is a little premature, you have to remember the mindset of the administration we're dealing with here and how heavy handed it can be (ie: an "I'm going to do this because I can" mentality). So, no, I'm not about to jump off the deep end but I do have my trusty water wings ready if need be.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 21):

Thanks for your great input. I don't think I've given up any right however. I don't foresee police officers kicking the doors in on every house on the street. It's a pretty good bet, my friend, the targets of these warrantless searches* will not be Mom and Pop Smith at 1234 Elm Str.

* By the way - something Cairo missed the boat on completely - and something I'd like to highlight for you Columba - is these warrantless acts are only good for 15 days after the country enters a state of war - or so says the information in the thread starter.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
turbo7x7
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:22 am

Anyone who says SO WHAT? and this doesn't affect me because I'm not a bad guy is either naive or has drunk too much of the Kool Aid.

It's only a matter of time until these expanded surveillance powers become misused/abused for things that have NOTHING to do with terrorism.

It's only a matter of time. Imagine if a populist leftie president takes over after Bush (an impossible nightmare for most of the rightie wingnuts here but humor me  Wink ). The temptation would be too great NOT to use these surveillance capabilities to eavesdrop on his political adversaries.

And of course, it'll all be done through 3rd and 4th parties in order to have "plausible deniability."  Yeah sure

In the words that most scholars attribute to Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
padraighaz
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I'm happy then - being complicit - and I'm secure as well. Can you say the same

Of course not - I don't want to be complicit in undermining the constitution and I'm under no illusions concerning security. Sheesh.
 
searpqx
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
* By the way - something Cairo missed the boat on completely - and something I'd like to highlight for you Columba - is these warrantless acts are only good for 15 days after the country enters a state of war - or so says the information in the thread starter.

No, this is what is so disturbing about the House version of this bill, the 15 day limitation was stripped, leaving the President unfettered during a 'state of war'.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
IOW, let's wait to see what the final law says before jumping off the deep end.

Which is why I qualified both of my posts. And now, based on reports coming from Washington this afternoon, the leadership has all but acknowledged that this bill has no chance of making it out before recess.

I'm still greatly disturbed by the language, but we'll wait and see what happens in the lame duck session, when there isn't nearly as much political pressure for both of the parties to 'appear tough'.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
StarAC17
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
What civil liberties have you lost???

I think his point is that this can be used by law enforcement to search your house or car without actually having a warrant or any consent by the owner which if you ever did without documentation or permission from the owner and found out that evidence of a murder the case would get thrown out as you have violated the specific rights of that citzen. This while meaning well can and eventually will be easily abused not necessarily by all but some people in law enforcement as power will corrupt.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
halls120
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 26):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
IOW, let's wait to see what the final law says before jumping off the deep end.

Which is why I qualified both of my posts. And now, based on reports coming from Washington this afternoon, the leadership has all but acknowledged that this bill has no chance of making it out before recess.

I'm still greatly disturbed by the language, but we'll wait and see what happens in the lame duck session, when there isn't nearly as much political pressure for both of the parties to 'appear tough'.

I saw the first drafts of the Patriot Act and its reauthorization, and they bore a faint resemblance to the finished products.

[Edited 2006-09-27 21:07:48]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):

Sorry, but you got this one all wrong. The government are breaking the law here, namely the Constitution.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
searpqx
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 28):
I saw the first drafts of the Patriot Act and its reauthorization, and they looked NOTHING like the finished products.

Agreed. I just don't like where we're starting from.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:25 am

What civil liberties have I lost????

Well for starters the right to privacy. The right to habeus corpus?


Wiretaps on US citizens should be subject to judicial review in ALL cases.
American citizens should have the right to see the evidence against them and that evidence should be reviewed by a judge.

Right now. As it stands the President is wiretapping US citizens without court approval. This new legislation being proposed allows the President to designate you a person willfully trying to harm the US and throw you in jail without court oversight.

These right wingers want you to only think of yourself. Don't think about some loser that gets caught up in a government web because after all its just some other American citizen not you.

BTW the government has lost two rounds in Federal court on this. One being the Hamden decision. That laughed out of court Bush's theory on Presidential powers during war time. (As if he can suspend the Constitution and make himself King)

It's all a game. The right wing bed wetters are trying to get us worked up over torture and wiretaps as if that matters in the least about winning the War on Terror. They've screwed up in Iraq and they are trying like hell to deflect attention away from this. True patriots will not let these cry babies touch the Constitution.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:47 am

Waterboarding, prolonged exposure to cold, rendition to foreign countries for more abusive treatment. All this is going on at Bush's request. And all of of this unlawful per the Geneva conventions.

Many intelligence experts think info gained by this is useless. Almost all of them think this harms US soldiers in the long run by exposing them to more inhuman treatment when they are on the receiving end. . But most importantly this is immoral and against US values. This legislation erodes our standing in the World by institutionalizing torture. Ask any country that has done these things in the past and they will tell you we are going down wrong road and these short term gains (if any) are not worth the cost.
 
OlegShv
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 31):
What civil liberties have I lost????

Well for starters the right to privacy. The right to habeus corpus?


Wiretaps on US citizens should be subject to judicial review in ALL cases.
American citizens should have the right to see the evidence against them and that evidence should be reviewed by a judge.

Right now. As it stands the President is wiretapping US citizens without court approval. This new legislation being proposed allows the President to designate you a person willfully trying to harm the US and throw you in jail without court oversight.

These right wingers want you to only think of yourself. Don't think about some loser that gets caught up in a government web because after all its just some other American citizen not you.

BTW the government has lost two rounds in Federal court on this. One being the Hamden decision. That laughed out of court Bush's theory on Presidential powers during war time. (As if he can suspend the Constitution and make himself King)

It's all a game. The right wing bed wetters are trying to get us worked up over torture and wiretaps as if that matters in the least about winning the War on Terror. They've screwed up in Iraq and they are trying like hell to deflect attention away from this. True patriots will not let these cry babies touch the Constitution.

I'm with you on this. Good post.
 
Jalto27R
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RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 8):

And yet we've fought multiple wars, been involved with terrorism since the 70s and the government hasn't had the need to have unfettered rights to tap our phones and monitor our communications.

I doubt that. It's just for the last 30 years people knew to keep their damn mouth shut about secret intelligence gathering. And even if they didn't, guess their approach then never really worked, now did it?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 13):

"We" found out guys were trying to design a plan..."? Sorry, but is that not a United States flag you are flying? Wasn't it the Brits who were key in exposing the terror plot? I think the closest the U.S. has come to exposing a terror plot has been 4 wannabe terrorists in FL who made some suspicious comments to UC FBI agents and a couple of other guys in, OH I believe it was, who were caught with numerous stolen cell phones in their possession (which, by the way, resulted in zero terror-related charges being filed).

Way to take my comment and roll with a completely different topic. By "we" I meant ME and YOU who found out through the NEWS about the Brits catching those guys. Furthermore, I would doubt we know all the plots that are being snatched, or how many the government knows about, but has no need to interfere with because it is not yet a threat.

Mike
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 34):
And even if they didn't, guess their approach then never really worked, now did it?

That's a silly conclustion. So since we didn't have illegal wiretaps in the past and more wars and terrorism came about, that means we should have had illegal wire taps???

By that rational since having a military didn't stop terrorism in the past we should just get rid of the military?
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 34):
I doubt that. It's just for the last 30 years people knew to keep their damn mouth shut about secret intelligence gathering

This is another strawman argument. This is not a question about if wiretapping potential terrorists should be done. YES OF COURSE. We all agree on that. The question is should there always be judicial oversight?


They "terrorists" always knew the US wiretapped/looked at cash transfers/bank records etc. The don't give a damn whether a US judge oversees the process or not. Nothings changed to them as far as they are concerned.
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 34):
I doubt that. It's just for the last 30 years people knew to keep their damn mouth shut about secret intelligence gathering. And even if they didn't, guess their approach then never really worked, now did it?

Not quite sure what you're saying here. That we've actually been under surveillance by our government for many years, and these new laws just make it legal? Or that 9/11 and other attacks happened because we didn't allow unrestricted wire tapping and monitoring? Either way, pretty dark view there.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Jalto27R
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:49 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 35):

That's a silly conclustion. So since we didn't have illegal wiretaps in the past and more wars and terrorism came about, that means we should have had illegal wire taps???

By that rational since having a military didn't stop terrorism in the past we should just get rid of the military?

No, I'm saying that the methods we were using to fight terrorism in the past were obviously not good enough, therefore we need to improve and adjust to the current situation. If the government/homeland security/intelligence community thinks that wiretapping will help in the fight against terrorism, then obviously it would have helped in the past.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 37):

Not quite sure what you're saying here. That we've actually been under surveillance by our government for many years, and these new laws just make it legal? Or that 9/11 and other attacks happened because we didn't allow unrestricted wire tapping and monitoring? Either way, pretty dark view there.

How is it dark? If they were wiretapping before, it obviously needs adjusting because they missed a hell of alot before 9/11, Cole, and others. If they haven't been doing the wiretapping, and experts think it will help in fighting terrorism, then it should obviously be used.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 36):

This is another strawman argument. This is not a question about if wiretapping potential terrorists should be done. YES OF COURSE. We all agree on that. The question is should there always be judicial oversight?


They "terrorists" always knew the US wiretapped/looked at cash transfers/bank records etc. The don't give a damn whether a US judge oversees the process or not. Nothings changed to them as far as they are concerned.

That's not the only issue at hand. Many people moan and complain about losing their liberties, and rights...but they need to check out what comes first on their priority list.

Mike
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 26):
No, this is what is so disturbing about the House version of this bill, the 15 day limitation was stripped, leaving the President unfettered during a 'state of war'.

Thanks - I obviously missed that - and in that case I believe the House needs to reinstate the time limit. Period.

I will support the bill with the time limit in place. I'll have to see the final cut before I comment further.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
flymia
Posts: 6840
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
What liberties are now lost on you?

If you're not a criminal asshole, associating with other criminal assholes, go on about your business.

If the gov't wants to see my dirty text messasges between what ever bimbo of the week I have and myself - fine . . . what the hell do I care.

If the gov't wants to monitor my weekly call to Dominoes pizza and knows I prefer Hawaiian Pizza over Meatball, so what.

If the gov't can save ONE american life because they intercepted a terrorist transmission, fine by me.

Much ado about nothing - as long as you're not breaking the law . . . . .

Exactly something I would say.

If your a person who follows the law and has nothing to hide than who cares what the government does.
There is just one simple fact. How many terrorist attacks have taken place in the United States since 9/11? NONE. Government obviously doing something right.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
rendition to foreign countries for more abusive treatment.

What! You are kidding, right? There are other countries that give prisioners more abusive treatment? That cant be right! After all, YOU ARE NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE COUNTRIES, which you say, give MORE ABUSIVE TREATMENT. See your hipocrisy?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
And all of of this unlawful per the Geneva conventions.

I guess the lefties should take up this 'more abusive treatment' issue in other countries with the UN. After all, if you are so outraged over the treatment given to these prisioners by the US, I can imagine the explosive anger you have towards these countries that provide more abusive treatment. Right?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
Ask any country that has done these things in the past

Go to Mexico. Get arrested. See what treatment they give you compared to the US. Come back and give us your opinion. BTW, Mexico has already outlawed the death penalty.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 31):

BTW the government has lost two rounds in Federal court on this

And how many have they won?

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 31):
Right now. As it stands the President is wiretapping US citizens without court approval

Is there actual proof of this? I have not heard a single story of a US citizen being illegally wiretapped.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 31):
The right wing bed wetters are trying to get us worked up over torture and wiretaps

Seems like you guys did a pretty good job of getting worked up about this w/o the GOP helping you out.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 36):
The question is should there always be judicial oversight?

Sounds nice and fine, except for the fact that you dont necessarily know who or what you are looking for. How do you ask for permission to tap an unknown person. With the fluidity of current communications, how do you figure out which phone # to tap? There should be oversight, and there has been, but I also believe the FBI was recently trying to change the rules to accommodate current information technology.
 
seb146
Posts: 14351
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting NWDC10 (Thread starter):
so long as the government promises to delete anything not terrorism-related.

Uh, huh.... I'll believe that when I see it....

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
What liberties are now lost on you?

No one knows. The way I understand FISA law, any agency doing surveillance has up to 72 hours *after the fact* to obtain a warrant! However, the current administration has not gone through FISA channels and has not obtained warrants, so no one knows. I would rather have a paper trail and know my government is not spying on me than not know.

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 40):
How many terrorist attacks have taken place in the United States since 9/11? NONE. Government obviously doing something right.

Oh joy we only squandered 300 Billion and 2700 lives doing it. Looking forward to the next "Terrorist free" five years. We should be past 500 Billion and 5000 lives by then.
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:31 pm

Ah! We shouldn't have judges involved because we don't really know what we are looking for with the illegal searches? Got it.

We should take this to the Supreme Court and see what they say about that argument...LOL

Man o man, so many willing to just throw out the rule of law and the Constitution to give a President the right to wiretap Americans without a warrant and hold US citizens without trial. And institutionalize torture as well.

Does anybody realize in the scheme of things this doesn't amount to a hill of beans in winning the WOT? It's a red herring designed to take the public's mind off the Iraq fiasco?
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 44):
Ah! We shouldn't have judges involved because we don't really know what we are looking for with the illegal searches? Got it.

Finally!  sarcastic  (BTW, who said that in this thread, cause it wasnt me, and I cant find out who said it, except you)

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 44):
so many willing to just throw out the rule of law and the Constitution to give a President the right to wiretap Americans without a warrant and hold US citizens without trial.

Again, you havent given an article referring to an actual US citizen being subjected to this.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 44):
And institutionalize torture as well.

 sarcastic 
You want REAL torture, refer to your own post. Let me give you a reminder.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 32):
rendition to foreign countries for more abusive treatment.



Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 44):
Does anybody realize in the scheme of things this doesn't amount to a hill of beans in winning the WOT?

Please, here is your definition of how you win the war on terror: whatever GWB is doing is wrong, and he should do whatever he is not doing.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 34):
Way to take my comment and roll with a completely different topic. By "we" I meant ME and YOU who found out through the NEWS about the Brits catching those guys. Furthermore, I would doubt we know all the plots that are being snatched, or how many the government knows about, but has no need to interfere with because it is not yet a threat.

A completely different topic? I don't think so. Your post clearly tries to justify the actions of the United States ("and you are concerned the government is reading your text messages, and making sure you not planning a terrorist attack on your phone?") by correlating them with the recent terror-related arrests effected by the Brits.
If anything is off topic, it's your initial post. Unless, of course, you can show a connection between the terror-related arrests made in Britain and the US Government reading my text messages and eavesdropping on my phone calls.
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:55 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 40):
If your a person who follows the law and has nothing to hide than who cares what the government does.
There is just one simple fact.

Therefore the Bill of Rights is a waste of time? After all, why should law abiding citizens care about what the government does? Why do law abiding citizens need any protections from the government?

The law really is such an inconvenience I suppose. Don't ya wish we could just go back to a simpler time where rules were simpler and there was no bickering and we had one wise, god-ordained ruler - a king?
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:07 pm

Andes I'm not here to school you. It's too big a job. Bush has admitted to the program whereby he wiretaps without FISA oversight. Period. End of Story.

There is a case now before the court. That won it's first round in court. Brought by the ACLU. The government prosecutor accidentally gave the defense a copy of list of phone numbers showing that they had been under surveillance. (with no warrants to this effect issued in preceeding investigation.) (You kinda sorta need to give that info to the defense in a trial) That case is proceeding along just fine. Google it and learn the details yourself.

[Edited 2006-09-28 08:10:22]
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: A Must Read For All Americans

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 40):
How many terrorist attacks have taken place in the United States since 9/11? NONE. Government obviously doing something right.

Or the risk, and Al Queda's capabilities, were considerably overstated.

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