deltagator
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Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:22 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/27/berlin.opera.ap/index.html

So let me get this one straight.

Berlin is cancelling an opera that has been running for three years because they are worried Muslims might get upset and cause a ruckus like they did after the whole cartoon incident.

Granted, the opera has a scene in it where King Idomeneo holds up the severed heads of Poseidon, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha and that scene was added to the Mozart opera by the director but enough is enough. You don't see Christians, Buddhists, and Greeks throwing a royal hissy fit in the streets because someone dared criticize their religion. It's getting about damn near annoying how childish the Muslim community is over these things. If you want to be respected in the world then please act like adults.

According to the article the Muslim community is split on the decision with the leader of the Turkish Muslims in Germany saying that it is time Muslims accept freedom of expression in art. At least one seems to get it. Let's see if his opinion is met with disdain or will other Muslims hop on board with a somewhat enlightened viewpoint.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
Berlin is cancelling an opera that has been running for three years because they are worried Muslims might get upset and cause a ruckus like they did after the whole cartoon incident.

Bingo . . . you got it.

Pretty damned sad isn't it . . . speaks volumes about our Muslim brethren and their "sensitivities". I guess it beats having your embassies burned down, your railroad stations bombed and your aircraft attacked though . . .   

[Edited 2006-09-27 13:40:30]

[Edited 2006-09-27 13:42:46]
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cosec59
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:41 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
the opera has a scene in it where King Idomeneo holds up the severed heads of Poseidon, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha

What really pisses me of with this, is the fact that people aren't worried about the anger of Christians and Buddists.
Why worry about the anger of just one religion?
Apart from the fact it's more likely to be a Muslim that will bomb the opera house rather than a Christian or Buddist
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qr332
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:45 pm

You guys are talking like Muslims burned down the damn opera... pathetic!

If they chose to close the opera because they are worried about something, it doesn't suddenly mean that what you have in mind will happen. After all, it has been running for 3 years without any problems, right?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:46 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
You guys are talking like Muslims burned down the damn opera... pathetic!

No what's pathetic is that the Opera was cancelled for fear that is exactly what WOULD happen. Now that's fuckin' pathetic. Period. End.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 2):
Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
the opera has a scene in it where King Idomeneo holds up the severed heads of Poseidon, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha

What really pisses me of with this, is the fact that people aren't worried about the anger of Christians and Buddists.
Why worry about the anger of just one religion?
Apart from the fact it's more likely to be a Muslim that will bomb the opera house rather than a Christian or Buddist

People aren't worried about the reaction of Christians and Buddhists to insults directed at their religions, because Christians and Buddhists don't stage mass riots and engage in violence when such insults occur.

IOW, Islam has a pretty thin skin, it would appear.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cosec59
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
No what's pathetic is that the Opera was cancelled for fear that is exactly what WOULD happen. Now that's fuckin' pathetic. Period. End.

Absolutely correct
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
MYT332
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:49 pm

Well I think it's right they should cancel the opera.





















They suck!

[Edited 2006-09-27 13:50:28]
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aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
Berlin is cancelling an opera that has been running for three years because they are worried Muslims might get upset and cause a ruckus like they did after the whole cartoon incident.

One small correction, what I heard that the opera last ran three years ago, not since then.

Other than that -  banghead  AFAIK, there hasn't even been an actual threat but just an "anonymous hint" at possible protest. This country has gone through car bombings, politically motivated abuctions, neo nazi terror and lastly an almost successful Madrid-style bomb attack - and now some people don't even consider putting an X-ray machine at the entrance, but cnacel the opera right away? What good's that supposed to be?
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bill142
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:54 pm

It's rather ironic isn't it? here we are forgetting our own culture to please another yet they continue to dennouce ours. Why do we bother to please these people?
 
deltagator
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 8):
One small correction, what I heard that the opera last ran three years ago, not since then.

From the article..."Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, announced "with great regret" that she had decided to cancel the three year old production after state security officials warned it could provoke dangerous reactions in the current politically charged climate."

Sounds like it was running to me though perhaps the article is wrong.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 9):
It's rather ironic isn't it? here we are forgetting our own culture to please another yet they continue to dennouce ours. Why do we bother to please these people?

I don't know and I'm getting about tired of it because of crap like this one.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
You guys are talking like Muslims burned down the damn opera... pathetic!

No, we're talking because the Muslims might burn it down thus causing the Krauts to cave in and cancel the opera ahead of an issue. Fricking ridiculous!

From the article...The leader of Germany's Islamic Council welcomed the move, saying a depiction of Mohammed with a severed head "could certainly offend Muslims." But in an interview with German radio, Ali Kizilkaya added: "I think it is horrible that one has to be afraid ... That is not the right way to open dialogue."

Even a german Muslim leader gets that the temper tantrums being thrown by his folks is not helping their cause. Why can't the masses get it as well?
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aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
speaks volumes about our Muslim brethren and their "sensitivities"

Some... about some and their "sensitivities". I can hardly recall seeing anyone right in this forum cheering the torching of embassies or other displays of fanaticism.

On the other hand, there's been plenty of "bomb them" and "turn the whole place into one giant parking lot" rhetoric. Anyone would get defensive if (s)he was constantly lumped together with extremists just because those claim to follow the same religion.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Sounds like it was running to me though perhaps the article is wrong.

Could be - it doesn't matter that much anyway, when it was first played years ago no one except the feuilleton even noticed it.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Why can't the masses get it as well?

How well do you know what "the masses" are doing/thinking? Like I said, there hasn't even been more than an anonymous hint AFAIK, and certainly no massive protest.

That said, the ignorance and arrogance of some male muslim teenagers interviewed on what Ratzinger had said about Islam was astonishing - one didn't even know one bit of the speech yet was still threatening to beat him up. Other however didn't agree with the notion that Ratzinger had offended anyone.

[Edited 2006-09-27 14:13:47]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
Anyone would get defensive if (s)he was constantly lumped together with extremists just because those claim to follow the same religion.

Point taken - but if the combat boot fits . . . . . as the old saying goes.

I also don't see a hell of a lot of condemnation here either . . . . . 'golden silence' more often. Or outright support.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Or outright support.

But please, where? I hardly agree, to put it very mildly, with extremism, but in all honesty I could probably not find an a.net thread containing said outright support.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
golden silence

 checkmark 

However, you need to take one thing into account: Some of the more... vocal conservative members (neocon chickenhawks, in blunt words) race to flock to most threads on anything remotely connected to Middle East issues. They won't listen to anyone who doesn't support their views entirely, and they'll lash out insults and belittlements at anyone offering a different perspective. Hence it's no wonder few if any moderate Middle Easterners are ever seen in those threads.
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777236ER
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:20 pm

For all those bitching and moaning about this, remember the Christian outrage, demonstrations and anger at the Jerry Springer opera in the UK, and the Sikh protests at an apparently anti-Sikh play in Birmingham. This isn't limited to one religion.
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halls120
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
For all those bitching and moaning about this, remember the Christian outrage, demonstrations and anger at the Jerry Springer opera in the UK, and the Sikh protests at an apparently anti-Sikh play in Birmingham. This isn't limited to one religion.

And were any opera houses burned during the Springer protest? Any actors killed or injured?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
This isn't limited to one religion.

Exactly - as long as there are "Christians" violating the law of their own God by murdering e.g. abortion doctors or demagogues such as Fred Phelps, we need not spend much time on looking for the proverbial dirt on our own doorsteps.

It's extremism that turns people into murderers, not their faith.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
And were any opera houses burned during the Springer protest? Any actors killed or injured?

Were any actors killed in this case? Any opera houses burnt? Will we ever know what would have happened without the international media coverage?

[Edited 2006-09-27 14:27:08]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Or outright support.

But please, where?

Not a chance - I'm not lining myself up for a ban for pointing out the obvious. You're a damn smart man Aloges . . . you can figure it out.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):

The Golden Silence isn't because they don't want to voice their opinion - rather it's tacit approval.

Simple as that.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
Hence it's no wonder few if any moderate Middle Easterners are ever seen in those threads.

And to those gents here I apologize. I wish they'd feel free to come in to any thread for any reason.
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aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
I'm not lining myself up for a ban for pointing out the obvious.

Oops... sorry.  footinmouth 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
I wish they'd feel free to come in to any thread for any reason.

Don't we all...  Wink
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halls120
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
And were any opera houses burned during the Springer protest? Any actors killed or injured?

Were any actors killed in this case? Any opera houses burnt? Will we ever know what would have happened without the international media coverage?

No, but given the events of the last 25 years, I'd say its far more likely that we will encounter violence resulting from an insult delivered to Islam than violence resulting from an insult to any other major religion.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
No, but given the events of the last 25 years, I'd say its far more likely that we will encounter violence resulting from an insult delivered to Islam than violence resulting from an insult to any other major religion.

While that may be true, it's not the entire story in Germany's case. Terrorism has been the "specialty" of far-right and far-left political extremists in Germany for decades, which may have made us somewhat less sensitive towards religious fundamentalism.
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PanHAM
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):

Sounds like it was running to me though perhaps the article is wron

no, the production of the opera was about 3 years old and it way played before. This now is about 4 days in November where the production has been cancelled.

Part of the commentary today in "Die Welt", Churchill was quoted - Appeasement is feeding a Crocodile in the hope to be eaten last.

I certainly agree that the Western Culture is not everything, but a lot of the the values that form the Western Culture should be intregrated in other cultures. Freedom of speech is one of these high values.

We should not cave in to a religion that does not tolerate freedom of speech, we should fight for and defend our values. After the caricatures, after the ridiculous reaction on the Pope's speech and after this stupid decision in Berlin, just to mention these three, we are in free fall backwards behind the French Revolution and will wake up in the dark ages if we don't stand up now.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:51 pm

Come on you guys, opera isn't like a Broadway show. Name one western-style opera anywhere on earth, that's right, anyway on earth, that's played for a continuous year, let alone three.

Let's hear your list. Then we'll discuss the rest of the news item.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
Berlin is cancelling an opera that has been running for three years because they are worried Muslims might get upset and cause a ruckus like they did after the whole cartoon incident.

What do you mean with "Berlin"? Do you expect the German government to cancell a opera? The director of the opera house decided to cancell it.

But yes, her decission is silly and the exitement in Germany about it, shows that she is alone with her recreance, because of a threat, which by the way didn`t exist. Or did we overlook all these islamic fundamentalists sitting in her opera house, watching their performance of Mozart`s Idomeneo?  rotfl 
Now she has managed that every muslim in the world knows about this production. Now there comes the outraged protests from these idiots, which doesn`t know what about they are outraged. It`s like the speech of the pope. They not even didn`t know what the wording of his speech was.
I expect that she will loose her job soon.

Axel

[Edited 2006-09-27 16:55:11]
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MDorBust
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
Come on you guys, opera isn't like a Broadway show. Name one western-style opera anywhere on earth, that's right, anyway on earth, that's played for a continuous year, let alone three.

The Ring cycle.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):
The Ring cycle.

Name where it's sung year round on a continuous basis.
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MDorBust
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 25):
Name where it's sung year round on a continuous basis.

There will be a running in the Kennedy Center in 2008

I think the Aussies ran it in 2004 in Adelaide.

Seattle has it running off and on.

The Canadian Opera Company is running it right now.

And there's always Bayreuth.

I seriously hope you aren't trying to make some silly suggestions based on it not being a Cats or Phantom type twice a day show. Yeah, it doesn't run every night. Then again, you try doing a fifteen hour performance every night and see what happens. A half dozen performances of this type of show per year are more than most companies can handle.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
I seriously hope you aren't trying to make some silly suggestions based on it not being a Cats or Phantom type twice a day show. Yeah, it doesn't run every night.

I intend to do exactly that. Decipher this story and compare it apples to apples.

I then intend to compare it to Salome that features the severed head of John the Baptist.

But first, let's clarify if this, or any other opera runs like a Broadway show, as has been claimed in posts above.
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MDorBust
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 27):
But first, let's clarify if this, or any other opera runs like a Broadway show, as has been claimed in posts above.

You've imagined this claim.

The only claims made were that the show had a three year production run. A three year production run for an opera may be fifteen total shows. Any comparison to a Broadway style daily is your creation.

As I have pointed out, there are western operas with continuous runs. If you want to define a continuous run as being an everyday show, then you are misrepresenting the style of theatre being discussed.

Food for thought. The NFL has presented football continuously since the 1987 strike? Do they do nightly shows?
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jaysit
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
Granted, the opera has a scene in it where King Idomeneo holds up the severed heads of Poseidon, Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha and that scene was added to the Mozart opera by the director but enough is enough. You don't see Christians, Buddhists, and Greeks throwing a royal hissy fit in the streets because someone dared criticize their religion.

Well, you don't see others screaming in the streets.

However, remember Andres Serrano’s “Piss Christ” that consisted of a crucifix submerged in a tank of Serrano’s urine, and Chris Ofili’s “The Holy Virgin Mary” that showed the Virgin as a black woman made of elephant dung? (actually the last one was a celebration of Africanist tribal customs where elephant dung is actually used as art material, but I digress)

Well, it certainly got Mayor Guiliani and the Catholic community in New York up in arms. The Mayor threatened to cut off funding for the museum, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, the Mayor and Catholics didn't blow up mid-town Manhattan, but then we also live in a society where other legal persuasive means are possible and outrage can manifest itself in different ways.

Its also interesting that back in 2003 when this modern staging of Idomeneo was shown, many conservative Christians were outraged (luckily, it wasn't on the radar of radical Muslims back then, or we would have seen a rather interesting coalition of muckrakers). Needless to say, its amusing when the outraged in 2003 now join the ranks of those pressing for free speech.

Isn't religion just a hoot?
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Thread starter):
cancelling an opera

-
I am most astonished that the manager there cancelled the whole opera instead of instructing the "producer" (regisseur) to make a slight change of decor on that particular sequence. Such slight changes have been done in the entertainment business for ages uncounted times. Few people if any would have noticed. Looks as if that manager WANTED to provoke a bit of a commotion.
-
And most of all, that opera was produced again and again and there was never a complaint. It is the production of Mozart, a definite "classic" of classics. The thing is much exaggerated. You simply canNOT start to revise classic arts just due to political correctness-exercises, be they about Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Feminism or whatever "ism".
-
Am I contradicting myself ? Maybe, but not really. I just tackled the story from two sides.
-
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:38 am

What a load of crap  Angry

Muslims, please take note - if you think you won't like it, then don't go and watch it!



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Pretty damned sad isn't it . . . speaks volumes about our Muslim brethren and their "sensitivities".

really ?
-
"""" Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, announced "with great regret" that she had decided to cancel the three year old production after state security officials warned it could provoke dangerous reactions in the current politically charged climate.

After its premiere in 2003, the production by Hans Neuenfels drew widespread criticism over a scene in which King Idomeneo presents the severed heads not only of the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, but also of Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha.

The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004.
-
********************************************************
-
A) it was NOT Muslims but "STATE SECURITY OFFICIALS" who caused the stop.
B) it was "an addition by Director Neuenfels" which added that gruesome part. I think, also beheaded Jesus and Buddha are not exactly what I regard as a good taste ! And whenever Christian-Western opera-goers are unlikely to launch violent demonstrations in the streets, I can imagine that it would NOT be to their liking.
-
 
jaysit
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:44 am

What is incredibly remarkable is that the wrath of religious extremists of all stripes isn't vented against popular culture, but cultural expression at its more rarified forms.

This has included literature, modern art, and now opera.
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halls120
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
I am most astonished that the manager there cancelled the whole opera instead of instructing the "producer" (regisseur) to make a slight change of decor on that particular sequence.

No one is forcing muslims to attend the presentation of this show at gunpoint. It isn't being broadcast on worldwide TV. It is an artistic production intended to be viewed by people who pay for the privilege of attending. Why should the producer be forced to change the decor?

What you are suggesting is nothing more than censorship of art on religious grounds.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cornish
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:51 am

Its a shame A.net's resident opera diva JGP isn't around to pass comment  Wink
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 2):
What really pisses me of with this, is the fact that people aren't worried about the anger of Christians and Buddists.
Why worry about the anger of just one religion?
Apart from the fact it's more likely to be a Muslim that will bomb the opera house rather than a Christian or Buddist

Maybe. B U T it is presumably rather "conservative" Christians who pay the considerable entry to the opera and may NOT be amused to see the beheaded Jesus, not at all. They may NOT burn down anything, they may not embark onto street-demos, but they might reconsider to which opera to go to spend their money ! The opera manager possibly had some second-thoughts for simple COMMERCIAL reasons !

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Period. End.

THIS is NOT the way to go !! You can act that way in your police-HQ, but not in an open discussion-forum. People do NOT accept such police-school-jargon in a discussion-forum. If you do so in front of some wannabee-police-recruits, ok, but NOT on here !!  hissyfit   hot 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
People aren't worried about the reaction of Christians and Buddhists to insults directed at their religions, because Christians and Buddhists don't stage mass riots and engage in violence when such insults occur.
--
IOW, Islam has a pretty thin skin, it would appear.

-
BUT the opera-management should BE worried about the reaction of Christians, who might decide that an opera, showing a beheaded Jesus will no longer be their choice. You see, opera-goers are generally above-average money-earners or money-holders. It is neither Muslims nor Buddhists nor "working-class" Christians, it is upper-class-Christians who are PAYING. It therefore is THAT group which is important. And I think the management did NOT have the courage to press the producer to change that sequence and therefore built up the "Islam-excuse" !
-
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
You've imagined this claim.

No imagining at all.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 8):One small correction, what I heard that the opera last ran three years ago, not since then.
From the article..."Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, announced "with great regret" that she had decided to cancel the three year old production after state security officials warned it could provoke dangerous reactions in the current politically charged climate."

Sounds like it was running to me though perhaps the article is wrong.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
After all, it has been running for 3 years without any problems, right?

Don't those two posts say exactly that?

Now, let's address another aspect of this. The opera isn't even being presented as written.

[i]"After its premiere in 2003, the production by Hans Neuenfels drew widespread criticism over a scene in which King Idomeneo presents the severed heads not only of the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, but also of Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha."

The director himself says that his staging is a protest:

"Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against 'any form of organized religion or its founders.'"

Did any of you guys read that? Let me repeat it, the production itself is a protest.

Now people are saying it's silly to cancel a protest in itself, because of the possibilities of protests. Why does the Berlin Opera find the need to protest religion?
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qr332
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 31):
Muslims, please take note - if you think you won't like it, then don't go and watch it!

BMIFlyer, please take notes - the Muslims didn't do anything and it wasn't them who decided to stop the opera!
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halls120
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
BUT the opera-management should BE worried about the reaction of Christians, who might decide that an opera, showing a beheaded Jesus will no longer be their choice.

 rotfl  Right. I can see it now, Christians storming the opera house and burning it to the ground.  Wink
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aloges
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 38):
the Muslims didn't do anything and it wasn't them who decided to stop the opera!

Exactly. Again, all I have heard of was some sort of "anonymous hint" to "possible Muslim protests". As long as we don't know what that shady description of something-resembling-a-threat actually means, there is no reason for blaming this on anyone in particular... maybe except for the director of the opera house, but that's a slightly different story.
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rolfen
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
You guys are talking like Muslims burned down the damn opera... pathetic!

If they chose to close the opera because they are worried about something, it doesn't suddenly mean that what you have in mind will happen. After all, it has been running for 3 years without any problems, right?

 Angry
Listen man, you cannot scare someone then blame him for being scared.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 39):
BUT the opera-management should BE worried about the reaction of Christians, who might decide that an opera, showing a beheaded Jesus will no longer be their choice.

rotfl Right. I can see it now, Christians storming the opera house and burning it to the ground.

Well, the idea of conservatively clad upper class Germans in tailcoats storming the opera house and burning it to the ground may be intriguing ! But there is more likelihood to them changing to the opera-houses in Leipzig and Dresden. I on a press invitation (including a DC-3 flt ZRH-LEJ/LEJ-ZRH and city-tours in Leipzig+Halle) had the chance to have an evening in the opera of Leipzig, which is most remarkable. I doubt the statements of that manager very much and believe that it was NOT Muslims but her standard-customers who gave her headaches.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:37 am

WTF? Are we being stripped of our freedoms because of religion? I almost feel like a hostage. This crap is getting old. I have a feeling that this trash is starting to get under many peoples skin.

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PanHAM
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
I am most astonished that the manager there cancelled the whole opera instead of instructing the "producer" (regisseur) to make a slight change of decor on that particular sequence. Such slight changes have been done in the entertainment business for ages uncounted times. Few people if any would have noticed. Looks as if that manager WANTED to provoke a

You're joking, right? If not, you don't have the slightest idea how Theatres are rtun, worse, you don't have the slightest idea of freedom of speech, the liberties art have

A director is an artist,the production of an opera is a piece of art, into which the director puts his visions, his interpretation of a play or an opera.

The manager can voice his (her) views, that's it. She can take it off the program, but that would be a scandal in first place. we are talking about fundamental rights. It happens more than once that operas or theater plays are produced in a way that does not goutier the audiences, especially not when they are highly educated and have their own views and may have seen other productions. They have the right to boo the actors, singers the director, whoever is involved. It happens sometimes on scene.

But no one has the right to censorship.,more censorship is unconsitutional. There is a simple and plain §§ in the German Consititution.

CENSORSHIP DOES NOT TAKE PLACE.

In this partiuclar case, the principal of the Opera House may have had some arning by the Berlin Authorities, it is in a way understandable that she decided this way, because, should something have happened, she would have been in sh*t's alley. The scandal might hit back to the City Government who are supposed to guarantee the basic rights and not back off to some terror threats.

That such threads do not usually come from Christian, Greek or Buddhist communities, must be obvious to anybody. Just remember Pope Town, Of course it is the Church's right to cry havoc which they did. At the end of the day, it was shown on MTV in Germany and recently I saw DVD's in a shop on open display and no one cared.

Try that with something "Anti-Islamic".



..
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777236ER
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 31):
What a load of crap Angry

Muslims, please take note - if you think you won't like it, then don't go and watch it!

Ditto Christians and Sikhs?
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qr332
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 41):
Listen man, you cannot scare someone then blame him for being scared.

Funny, coming from someone who used to live in Beirut. If thats the argument your going to use, then don't you think Muslims are also scared? All they are seeing is their religion coming under attack again and again (I am not talking about militarily here), and they are on the defensive for a reason.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MDorBust
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 37):
Don't those two posts say exactly that?

Where in those two posts is anything said comparing the opera to a broadway style production?

As I said:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
The only claims made were that the show had a three year production run.
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luv2fly
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 9):
It's rather ironic isn't it? here we are forgetting our own culture to please another yet they continue to dennouce ours. Why do we bother to please these people?



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
People aren't worried about the reaction of Christians and Buddhists to insults directed at their religions, because Christians and Buddhists don't stage mass riots and engage in violence when such insults occur.

IOW, Islam has a pretty thin skin, it would appear.



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Pretty damned sad isn't it . . . speaks volumes about our Muslim brethren and their "sensitivities". I guess it beats having your embassies burned down, your railroad stations bombed and your aircraft attacked though . . .



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
No, but given the events of the last 25 years, I'd say its far more likely that we will encounter violence resulting from an insult delivered to Islam than violence resulting from an insult to any other major religion.



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Part of the commentary today in "Die Welt", Churchill was quoted - Appeasement is feeding a Crocodile in the hope to be eaten last.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
No one is forcing muslims to attend the presentation of this show at gunpoint. It isn't being broadcast on worldwide TV. It is an artistic production intended to be viewed by people who pay for the privilege of attending. Why should the producer be forced to change the decor?

What you are suggesting is nothing more than censorship of art on religious grounds.
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NoUFO
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RE: Opera Cancelled On Possibility Of Muslim Anger

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
CENSORSHIP DOES NOT TAKE PLACE.

If the intendant urges the director to change a certain scene, it's of course not censorship, because only governmental authorities can censor news or arts, not individuals.
Furthermore, intendants sometimes do force directors to chance a scene. I know four people who work in theaters (two of them in operas), so this time I know what I'm takling 'bout.
In this particular case, the director, however, refused to take Mohammed out.

But don't get me wrong. I'm baffled to see the opera cancelled, which is a decision I certainly do not appreciate.

That said, they are now considering the resumption of the production.
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