rjpieces
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Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:26 am

Thoughts?

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...BjYTQ2MDM0ZGIzZjY5YjhhMzViYjdjNTA=

Make no apologies for the use of “Islamic fascism.” It is the perfect nomenclature for the agenda of radical Islam, for a variety of historical and scholarly reasons. That such usage also causes extreme embarrassment to both the Islamists themselves and their leftist “anti-fascist” appeasers in the West is just too bad.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Newark777
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:52 am

Well, that's exactly what they are, so I feel it fits nicely. If people don't like it, they are just denying reality.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Mir
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:53 am

I'm of the opinion that when pretty much everybody knows how bad something is, arguing over the perfect words to describe it is generally a waste of time. Islamic extremism, Islamic fascism, Islamic terrorism, Islamic anti-Westernism, whatever. Hell, all you have to say these days is "Islamic" and people pretty much know what you're talking about (which is in itself a pretty sad thing, but that's another topic).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
the use of �Islamic fascism.�

The term is just a cheap slogan, happily taken over by politicians with a lack of vocabulary. Are Muslim fundamentalists better than fascists ? Not really, just a different illness.
 
Newark777
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
The term is just a cheap slogan, happily taken over by politicians with a lack of vocabulary.

Could expand on this? It seems to fit quite nicely to me.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
cfalk
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
The term is just a cheap slogan, happily taken over by politicians with a lack of vocabulary.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. Can you expand on exactly why you think the term is innacurate or non-descriptive?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Appropriate Name?

Terrorism

Next?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
rjpieces
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Terrorism

But don't you think there is something unique about Arab/Muslim terrorism these days that makes it distinct from tradtional domestic terrorist groups (IRA, Basques, etc).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Terrorism

But don't you think there is something unique about Arab/Muslim terrorism these days that makes it distinct from tradtional domestic terrorist groups (IRA, Basques, etc).

Sure do. The IRA, Basques, etc, didn't get their panties in a wad over a gawddamn cartoon or an Opera . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jaysit
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:33 am

The term Islamic fascism is old hat.

Its been used now for over 20 years, and it rings true. Especially in that Islamic fascism exporting nation, Saudi Arabia.

The repulsive and pathetic President suddenly adopted it a month or so ago, (late as he is to anything that rings true), and suddenly his detractors who can find 1,000,001 things to criticize him over, and who themselves have used that term, now find it unacceptable. Idiots, all of them.

Clearly his handlers shoved that term into his limited vocabulary of late. Clever diversionary tactic. Now, his dimwitted followers who have made themselves blind to all his other dangerous tantrums and lying have suddenly discovered that term as well. And the guileless and short-sighted bleating goats on the left will now take them on in a battle of syntax. And while all of this happens, the victorious Islamo-fascists laugh at the intemperate Dauphin and his baby-sitters in the White House as they continue to lie, deceive, obfuscate and trample on the rule of law that made this country great.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:36 am

It's absolutely a perfect thing to call it, because that's what it is.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Sure do. The IRA, Basques, etc, didn't get their panties in a wad over a gawddamn cartoon or an Opera . . .

 rotfl 
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EK156
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:13 am

MAF why do you even attempt to answer these kind of threads??? Falcon, ANCFlyer, RJpieces and the others are convinced 1 Billion percent that we are ALL... and in all I mean EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM ON EARTH ... we are all terrorists, fascist, killers, haters etc.. Why do you give them any attention mate? Look else where to people who will have a constructive conversation with you.

In the last month this lot that I have mentioned have only been started threads to flame, blast and cause more hatred towards the whole Islamic Religion. They are convinced that if you are a Muslim then you are a terrorist. And if you say that you are not a terrorist, then you are not a Muslim.... and when you try to defend or argue against the notion that all Muslims are not like those few fanatics, they will not listen to you or will tell you "So do something about it" or whatever it is that they want to say.

They don't want peace... they just want to hate us all and show the world that we are bad in every single thing. They will tell you we want peace... and then they say... we should be exterminated, banished from earth and so on...

I as a muslim would rather have a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever friends that can work with me, be good to each other, respect each other and understand that we are all being made to hate each other because of the agenda of a few greedy people.... I will not let these greedy people make me fall into arguing with ignorant poeple who have beed braishwashed by them whatever religion they follow and firstly with my fellow Muslims... I will argue with them first and for most ... to make them understand that we are being divided to be conquered... all of us Muslims, Jews, Christans and others are being divided to keep us busy fighting against each other... for the other greedy few to reap the fruits of the earth... when will the people wake up?

You guys really need to find something else to talk about... for the last couple of months... all you do is start the same thread with different names... tells me alot about what your intentions are.... soon you will be talking to the walls cause you are stirring hatred like others around you are .... so when you say you are better than those Muslims Clerics or Extremists who call for the end of whatever .... you are no better than them!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
It seems to fit quite nicely to me.

--

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
pretty accurate

-
it may fit in many ways, but is NOT accurate. As fascism in reality is not just a state-of-mind but an ideology (Benito Mussolini in Italy, Francisco Franco in Spain, Antonio Salazar in Portugal. It later on became a term to describe any authoritarian right-winger as a fascist. Rather a kind of fashion.
-
The Islamist fundamentalists of course ARE authoritarian, right-wing conservatives of zero-tolerance and an extremely narrow-minded point-of-view.
-
Islamo-fundies would rather be my term.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
Falcon, ANCFlyer, RJpieces and the others are convinced 1 Billion percent that we are ALL... and in all I mean EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM ON EARTH ... we are all terrorists, fascist, killers, haters etc..

If we were convinced of that, we would have already taken steps to kill all of you.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
. They are convinced that if you are a Muslim then you are a terrorist. And if you say that you are not a terrorist, then you are not a Muslim....

I would love to see you quote that from one of those members.

Your post is hogwash.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
cfalk
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
The Islamist fundamentalists of course ARE authoritarian, right-wing conservatives of zero-tolerance and an extremely narrow-minded point-of-view.

Sounds fascist to me.

I object to the idea of fascists being associated with "right wing" however. Joseph Stalin, Mao Tsetung, Adolf Hitler and Kim Il Sung were hardly right wingers, but decidedly fascist.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cfalk
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
MAF why do you even attempt to answer these kind of threads??? Falcon, ANCFlyer, RJpieces and the others are convinced 1 Billion percent that we are ALL... and in all I mean EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM ON EARTH ... we are all terrorists, fascist, killers, haters etc.. Why do you give them any attention mate? Look else where to people who will have a constructive conversation with you.

I think you need to talk to someone about your persecution complex.

Islam is what motivates most of these terrorists. They fight because they feel that (make your choice) the presence of infidels in muslim lands is an affront to Allah, that all former muslim lands must be restored, to spread the word of Allah by the sword, that Allah will reward him for killing infidels, etc. etc. whatever. Those are their motivations. They are related to the Islamic faith, regardless of whether or not they are misinterpreting the Quran or not.

In the middle ages we had the Crusades - the name itself relates to the Cross of Jesus, even though Jesus' teachings had nothing to do with their butchery, Chistianity was their motivation.

The longer you deny the fact that Islam in some form is the motivator behind these terrorists, the longer it will be before your culture does something to address the problem.

Christianity did eventually - it was called the Reformation. It was bloody and dirty but it had to be done. Through the Reformation, Christians started to face what had gone wrong, and take steps to change things. The process took a couple of hundred years, but as a result, we don't have thousands of Christians demanding the death of anyone simply they are not like them anymore.

How long will we wait for the Muslim Reformation?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
Joseph Stalin, Mao Tsetung, Adolf Hitler and Kim Il Sung were hardly right wingers, but decidedly fascist.

Stalin, Mao and Kim were NOT fascists but communists. As totalitarian as the Fascists, but LEFT-wingers. The "Nazism" of the NSDAP in Germany was a kind of extreme "derivative" of fascism. Fascism and communism may have much in common, but simply are not only not the same, but on two opposite ends.
 
jaysit
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 14):
I object to the idea of fascists being associated with "right wing" however. Joseph Stalin, Mao Tsetung, Adolf Hitler and Kim Il Sung were hardly right wingers, but decidedly fascist.

Kim Il Jong, Stalin and Mao adopted communist economic ideologies, but their brand of fascism is synonymous with the "right wing," a term that symbolizes absolute authority. Can anyone doubt that Franco was a right winger? Can anyone doubt that Mussolini and Hitler both of whom opposed liberalism, democracy and pluralism were right wingers? Communism in its inception symbolized "leftist" economic ideologies, but like every other institution of absolute authority was a right wing authoritarian one.

In the words of Mussolini himself:

Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the "right", a Fascist century.

Fascism in Europe allied itself with mainstream elites - the Church, large industrial houses (in 1930s Germany, for instance) - who used fascism to further their own brands of conservatism, either religious, or nationalist, or economic.

Bringing the far East with its Confucian and entirely different social traditions into an understanding of Western Fascism is dishonest. Fascism in the West, especially in the war years and the post WWII era has decidedly been a right wing cause.

While I see your point, you're making the classic mistake of associating fascism and communism with the "left wing" politics of today. Other than the meaningless rants of those 21 year old tatooed and pierced anti World Bank kids of Bankers themselves out on some youthful angst-driven kick, the connection between anti-capitalism and the left has been decimated a long time ago. With the taming of robber-baron capitalism of the turn of the last century, the so-called left (at least in the United States) has made its peace with capitalism, and the politics of right and left, fascism and democracy have moved onto a different playing field.

The fascists of today - the Islamo-fascists, the Christo-fascists, all have one objective - absolute adherence to religious authority, a deep hatred of modernity, democracy, critical thought. The Christo-fascists have cleverly embraced superficial talk of the free market and nationalism as a veil to hide their ulterior motives, while the Islamo-fascists have embraced all the prevailing problems of their cultures (poverty, absolute monarchies, etc.) to further their own hideous agenda.

Fascism is just a form of absolute control in the Executive branch of government (often the only branch in most fascist states), the antithesis of democracy, gutting of the judiciary, the exploitation of the power of the mob. Economic modes were just a means to an end.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:04 am

Sure go ahead and use the term. Bush obvioulsy doesn't care that it's offensive to Muslims all over the World? I mean let's not kid ourselves. We don't need the majority of Islamic World opinion on our side do we? We'll just fight a world wide terrorist movement by ourselves. I mean look how well Iraq is doing? Look at the report that came out last week showing how well Bush's war has done in defeating Terrorism? The important issue is that it makes the Bush base feel good so they'll vote for the GOP in November.


Yes use the term. You're so serious about winning the War on Terror. That's really going to help....LOL

[Edited 2006-09-29 20:06:14]
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:12 am

I just trying to figure out what's being accomplished here by using the term?

Is saying the "truth" as you define it. "Islamic facists" Is this going to drive home the point to the US public so much so that the tide turns and they support a full scale escalation of the military campaign? We've got 140K troops there now. We probably need triple that to bring it under control.

Or will it drive a wedge between peaceful Muslims and the radicals?

Seriously what does Bush hope to accomplish by using the term?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 18):

Well, now that you've gotten that out of your system...

What do YOU think they should be titled? I mean, if you're going to sh*t on everyone else's terms... at least let us return the favor. Big grin

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:20 am

Well US actions are 95% of the problem. But if we had a true leader in charge every speech he made should make clear that most Muslims all over the World are peace loving. Only a small percentage are radicals. "Islomofascism" is taken by the majority of Muslims as a smear. Is that what you are trying to accomplish? Piss them all off? You think you are going to turn the tide of public opinion saying that?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
Well US actions are 95% of the problem.

Ahhhh... I see said the blind man as he pissed into the wind. It's all coming back to me.

Thanks, Artie. I had forgotten it almost entirely our fault. Jeez... we gotta do something about that!

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
every speech he made should make clear that most Muslims all over the World are peace loving.

But that's all I freakin hear coming out of Washington. "The religion of Islam is a peaceful one." "Islam teaching have been bastardized by Al Qaeda." "Islam is peaceful." "Islam is great." blah blah blah. I seriously don't know how you've missed this.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
"Islomofascism" is taken by the majority of Muslims as a smear.

Ehhh... but so is "white devil" and "infidel". Oh and let me tell you... whenever I hear those terms, my first reaction is to bomb a middle eastern embassy or go kill some people. It's cathartic, ya know?

----------

But seriously Artie, I asked you what term you would prefer we use. But you skirted the question. WHAT TERM WOULD YOU USE?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:34 am

You're taking me out of context. I'm not saying the US is to blame for the attacks upon it.

I'm saying actions are louder than words. And Bush has made terrible mistakes in reacting to 9/11.

Of course you here them making the distiction in Washington between peaceful Muslims and radicals. That's the right thing to do!

Bush veered from this by starting to use the term "islamofacists" to work up his base. Because it's not about the WOT, it's about winning in November.

And to answer you question. I urge them not to use labels when talking about Muslims. So I propose no counter term.
 
Newark777
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 23):
I urge them not to use labels when talking about Muslims. So I propose no counter term.

So what do you want to call them? You really aren't making any sense. Labels are there for a reason, and if you are offended by them, you need to get real.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 24):
You really aren't making any sense

You actually need to read in context. The thread went right over your head. Or stop intentionally being absurd.

You think I have something against the term Muslim? Other nouns?...LOL

This is about politically charged terms made up with Karl Rove's blessing in order to turn out the GOP base.

Get it now?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 23):
And to answer you question. I urge them not to use labels when talking about Muslims. So I propose no counter term.

Well what the heck!?

Don't use labels? Well what am I suppose to call someone who incites riots in the streets because of a cartoon? Or someone who uses the local mosque as a recruitment center to convert young men into believing his distorted hate speech? What do I call someone who finances home made bombs to be used on suicide bombers or in car bombs? What do we call those who actively seek to use Islam as a vail for their socio-political agendas of attacking the west?

I can just read the newspapers now... "Earlier today in Ramadi, three _______ were arrested in a local mosque. These three _________ were suspected of planning attacks on local shops and market places. When authorities raided the mosque they discovered the three ________ had stashed hundreds of weapons and bomb making material. The three _________ were transferred to Iraqi local police for interrogation. And for our readers, we would like to remind you that the three ________ in no way represent the religion of Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion. Islam is a like flower in a meadow on a spring morning. The three _______ were only making bombs because 95% of this problem is Americas fault. Again, this is our fault. Sorry."

See Artie, I just met all three of your criteria.

1.)

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
Well US actions are 95% of the problem.

2.)

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
every speech he made should make clear that most Muslims all over the World are peace loving.

3.)

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 23):
I urge them not to use labels when talking about Muslims.

Made for some fascinating reading, no?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ANCFlyer
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
ANCFlyer, RJpieces and the others are convinced 1 Billion percent that we are ALL... and in all I mean EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM ON EARTH ... we are all terrorists, fascist, killers, haters etc.. Why do you give them any attention mate? Look else where to people who will have a constructive conversation with you.

Ummmm, Bullshit.

Show me anywhere - ANYWHERE - where I have stated that all Muslims are Terrorists . . . when you do that, then your credibility will be restored . . . because anyone reading this site already knows better . . .

Sounds more to me like you'd rather play the "Oh, poor little old me, the victim" than anything else. Well, you go right ahead. More like the 5th grader that got picked on in school . . . "Whaaa, Johnny hit me again". Geezus . . .  sarcastic 

Note to Self: "Why do I bother defending myself to this guy? Waste of time, move on."

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 19):
I just trying to figure out what's being accomplished here by using the term?

I think we should just stick with terrorist. Easier to spell, easier on the tongue, and accurate.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
Well US actions are 95% of the problem

More bullshit. I'm going to have to go to the garage and get my Chest Waders in a minute.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:55 am

uh60

I'm about at the end of our rope here. If you continue to twist what I say in order to score points you can do it on your own.

This point I was making was not about what terms YOU use to describe those committing terrorist acts. It's about a President using a term offensive to the majority of Muslims around the World in his speeches. It is perceived by them as smearing them all. Associating Islam and Terrorism. Now you can argue the Muslims are being unreasonable, too sensitive. Fine.

I'm telling you the term is counter-productive if you goal is to win some level of support among the the majority of Muslims around the World. If you don't think we need them fine. You are on your own buddy.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
MAF why do you even attempt to answer these kind of threads??? Falcon, ANCFlyer, RJpieces and the others are convinced 1 Billion percent that we are ALL... and in all

I challenge you to show me where any of us has said that, EK. And I'll win, because we've never said that, and I know we don't believe that.

What I DO believe is a majority of the Arab/Islamic world either tacitly or openly supports of the actions of these groups against the west, and, certainly, Israel. But there's a difference.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 11):
They don't want peace...

I want peace as bad as the next person, but peace at all costs is simply capitulation, and eventually, would lead to the loss of my liberty, which I will not accept. I'd rather die than accept the kind of life these Islamofascists want to foster on the world.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Islam is what motivates most of these terrorists

I disagree. That's the excuse. Hate, and the want for power, is what motivates them.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
windshear
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
I'm of the opinion that when pretty much everybody knows how bad something is, arguing over the perfect words to describe it is generally a waste of time

I disagree. I think naming it, comes after you've established just what you are up against, once you know this, you can begin dealing with it appropriately.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 21):
Well US actions are 95% of the problem

Cheesus you really believe that?
Come on, how can terrorists and jihadists have a personal grudge against American civilians, when the US is in Iraq because of Saddam and not because they are after the Iraqi people? And this is just ONE example!

And how come Indonesia got bombed?
And how come Egypt got bombed?
And how come Jordan got bombed?
And how come Spain got bombed?
And how come Turkey got bombed?
And how come Marocco got bombed?
And how come India got bombed?
And how come Saudi got bombed?
And how come Russia got bombed?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Indonesia got bombed?
And how come Egypt got bombed?
And how come Jordan got bombed?
And how come Spain got bombed?
And how come Turkey got bombed?
And how come Marocco got bombed?
And how come India got bombed?
And how come Saudi got bombed?
And how come Russia got bombed?

Bad Operas? Questionable Cartoons? Untimely Quotes?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
windshear
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Bad Operas? Questionable Cartoons? Untimely Quotes?

Hmm, now let me see  scratchchin  it has got to me one of them... Big grin

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Indonesia got bombed?
And how come Egypt got bombed?
And how come Jordan got bombed?
And how come Spain got bombed?
And how come Turkey got bombed?
And how come Marocco got bombed?
And how come India got bombed?
And how come Saudi got bombed?
And how come Russia got bombed?

Bad Operas? Questionable Cartoons? Untimely Quotes?

Hatred. Pure, unadulterated hatred.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 28):
I'm about at the end of our rope here. If you continue to twist what I say in order to score points you can do it on your own.

Yeah, you're probably right. I ought to at least try to take your arguments more seriously. Sorry.

But your arguments are very telling about how if you were in charge, and left to your own devices, how you would fight this war. And maybe it's simply because I've spent a sizable amount of time living next to these people, and seeing how their culture differs from our own, is the reason why I have such trouble taking you seriously.

I understand you feel the term "Islamofascist" is insulting. But you know, when I was growing up, I was surrounded by a lot of other kids, whether family or neighborhood kids. And at some point in time, I had to learn that every time Billy said something mean to me, I couldn't run to my mom and cry about it. At some point I had to grow thicker skin and not become so bent out of shape over a word.

Unfortunately that lesson needs to be learned by a lot of people in the Middle East. When I use the term "Islamofascist", I shouldn't have to bring every Muslim out for an ice cream cone and explain to them that I wasn't referring to them. At SOME point, the Muslim community is going to have to learn how to delineate between themselves and the extremist. An issue with Islamic fundamentalist does not translate into an issue with all of Islam. And they're going to have to stop acting like children, and learn this vital lesson.

And that leads me into your suggestion that THE WEST is the one that needs to learn how to play nice. Artie, how much time have you spent in the Middle East? That's not sarcasm, it's an honest question.

You see, one of America's biggest problems is we simply do not understand the complexity of Muslim community. And many people try and correlate this struggle into something they CAN understand. Take for example this, when I went to basic training in the summer of 2001, all of the basic soldiering/warrior skills I was taught are useless to me now. Because everything I learned was based on how to fight a major nation or war, such as a Soviet invasion of Europe. But in the last 5 yrs, the training has changed so dramatically I hardly recognize it. And while the military may be quick to adapt to the new threat... I honestly think a lot of westerns are having trouble making that same adaption.

And because this threat is so unlike any other, you cannot place the same restrictions on it as you would conventional wars of old. Interrogation techniques need to be fluid. Techniques on how to patrol need to be fluid. Training and logistics need to be fluid. And most important, you can't fall into the trap of assuming the Muslim world is anything like YOUR world.

From everything I've observed and learned, this is a very authoritative driven culture. Every person has a place in the overall hierarchy and they are taught from birth to respect those above them. This culture respects power. They respect authority and they respect a firm hand.

Just look at the structure of terror cells in Iraq. What we have is not some large organization such as the US Army. Instead we have very small groups of individuals operating, for the most part, self sufficiently. When you study the dynamics of these 5-10 man cells, you will always find an "alpha male." There is always one man who holds dominance over the group and acts as the controller. He is rarely challenged and disobeyed. They will not attack unless they feel they either have A.) a sufficient escape route to provide reasonable safety or B.) the element of surprise on a target who's weaknesses can easily be exploited. In other words, they started off attacking Abrams, but realized a 120mm shell really hurts when the gunner fires it up your ass! ...so they shifted to soft vehicles. This is a good example of their respect for power and strength. They've abandoned attacking the strong, high value, high pay off targets.

Look, in your utopian world it would be great if we could use nice words and be more diplomatic with the middle east. But you cannot fight the war by blaming 95% of the problem as America's fault. You cannot fight by refusing to talk about the elephant in the room and acknowledge that ISLAMOFASCISM is a threat that must be eliminated without hesitation. You cannot fight by simply trying to be nice. Because while it might make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, you'll be suffering from the same issue the planners of this war had...... a woeful ignorance of this culture.

America and the West have made some mistakes, and we have some tough lessons to learn. But a huge part of this problem is going to have to be corrected from WITHIN the Muslim community. The quicker they are pushed into learning how to play like big boys, the quicker we can move on to tackling problems that actually matter. And I'm sorry, but your desire to coddle them like a over protective mother coddles a child... is not how one fights a war.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-09-29 22:06:51]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
a majority of the Arab/Islamic world either tacitly or openly supports of the actions of these groups against the west

while it in reality of course is NOT a majority but a weewee tiny minority who either tacitly or openly supports such "actions", while the majority is against them and their actions.
-
THIS exactly is what "EK" meant, when more or less describing you and some others as hopeless cases .
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 25):
This is about politically charged terms made up with Karl Rove's blessing in order to turn out the GOP base.

Get it now?

 rotfl 

Do you seriously believe Karl Rove invented the phrase Islamic fascists?! That's hilarious.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
That's the excuse. Hate, and the want for power, is what motivates them.

Just like all extremists.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
while it in reality of course is NOT a majority but a weewee tiny minority who either tacitly or openly supports such "actions", while the majority is against them and their actions.
-
THIS exactly is what "EK" meant, when more or less describing you and some others as hopeless cases .

Sorry, I don't agree with you or EK. I agree it is a majority.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
a majority of the Arab/Islamic world either tacitly or openly supports of the actions of these groups against the west

while it in reality of course is NOT a majority but a weewee tiny minority who either tacitly or openly supports such "actions", while the majority is against them and their actions.
-
THIS exactly is what "EK" meant, when more or less describing you and some others as hopeless cases .

Thank you MAF. I was about to respond to all the threads addressing mine when Falcon just threw himself in the hot pot!!! You all generalize and never give a chance to understand. That's what I meant and what I see all the time. You immediatly jump at the notion that Islam is provoking terrorism and that whoever follows Islam ultimately becomes a terrorist!! That is your problem!!! But it is not your fault... it is your ignorance....

We live in a world that showcases muslims as terrorists in almost everything.. movies, adds, magazines, documentaries.... everything.... I bet you anything that the real majority of Islam and how they live is never showcased and only bad sides, fanatics, extremists are showcased... this leads to generalization...

We try very hard to make you understand that we are the majority here and we speak up... we truly do... but no one wants to hear us... no one wants to listen... especially here!!!! This leads to our frustration!!! We are being Shut Up everywhere we go from our own people and from people all over the world... and do you know why??? Simple.... Muslims to be generalized as terrorists is PERFECT for certain people with agendas.... and if this generalization ends and the people find out the truth then this group will lose everything!!!!

Have you ever visited any Islamic Country like the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan,Lebanon, Egypt??? Have you??? Have you???? visit them and meet their people. Meet the bedouins. Accept their hospitality and then come back and write on this thread.... Don't compare us to OBL and his groups... and DON'T come and tell us we are crying like the victims.... We are crying out for people to hear us... but it seems like you either don't want to listen... or you won't!!!!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 38):
I was about to respond to all the threads addressing mine when Falcon just threw himself in the hot pot!!!

I'm quite cool, actually. Even wearing my CO hoodie right now.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
I think you need to talk to someone about your persecution complex.

Islam is what motivates most of these terrorists. They fight because they feel that (make your choice) the presence of infidels in muslim lands is an affront to Allah, that all former muslim lands must be restored, to spread the word of Allah by the sword, that Allah will reward him for killing infidels, etc. etc. whatever. Those are their motivations. They are related to the Islamic faith, regardless of whether or not they are misinterpreting the Quran or not.

In the middle ages we had the Crusades - the name itself relates to the Cross of Jesus, even though Jesus' teachings had nothing to do with their butchery, Chistianity was their motivation.

The longer you deny the fact that Islam in some form is the motivator behind these terrorists, the longer it will be before your culture does something to address the problem.

Christianity did eventually - it was called the Reformation. It was bloody and dirty but it had to be done. Through the Reformation, Christians started to face what had gone wrong, and take steps to change things. The process took a couple of hundred years, but as a result, we don't have thousands of Christians demanding the death of anyone simply they are not like them anymore.

How long will we wait for the Muslim Reformation?

Religion does not provoke terrorism.... Ideologies do that!! people with sick minds who think they are doing the right thing!!!! They are the ones who lead to all this crap!!!! Unfortunately, when some of them do that in the name of religion or a country or whatever... then everyone all over the world start calling this religion or country or people from that country terrorists and so!!!

This happens on both sides!!!! But we have to be smarter than that!!! When the US invaded Iraq in 2003, alot of Americans in the UAE were given the chioce by the US Governtment to go back to the US. They ALL refused.... simply because they love living in the UAE and they love the people in the UAE. They live here in peace and harmony and make a good life for themselves. They are smart, they understand... what you see on the news is not what is happening on ground!!!! This also is the same with us!!! When we disagree with policies, we do not hate the people of that country that issued the policies... unfortunately the ignorant ones do from our side.. but the majority don't and understand that this is all a game about power.... the people are just stuck in the middle and the ignorant ones follow those who lead with loud voices.... poor souls!!!

What saddens me is that we are trying very hard to speak up... truly.... but we are being shut up inside and outside.... so what the hell can we do? We will keep on trying until we reach some where... and it will happen

Reforms are being pushed forward in the UAE and many regional countries by their leaders who want a bright future for their countries... but you CANNOT force reform... it will happen eventually... when you force it... it will cause all this anger and hatred.... live and let live... let it be.... but noooooo.... for some people that is not on the table... let it be... never.... force them to change... or we shall attack..... what do we do then?
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 38):
Have you ever visited any Islamic Country like the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan,Lebanon, Egypt???

Yes.

Next?

Quoting EK156 (Reply 38):
visit them and meet their people. Meet the bedouins

Yes.

Next?

Quoting EK156 (Reply 38):
Don't compare us to OBL and his groups... and DON'T come and tell us we are crying like the victims.... We are crying out for people to hear us... but it seems like you either don't want to listen... or you won't!!!!

As I said, still playing the victim here EK . . . I don't buy it . . . neither does anyone else.

No one - in their right mind - claims that all Muslims are terrorists . . . that simple isn't true . . . period. I know it, Falcon knows it, so does everyone else that's tired of the gawddamn crybaby mentality . . . everything appears - APPEARS - to offend . . . WTF?

I'll say it again, get thicker skin. This whiney assed "oh poor me" scenario is really, really boring . . . and it doesn't hold water.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 39):
I'm quite cool, actually. Even wearing my CO hoodie right now.

Okay I give you this one... that was quite funny for a change.. a but of humour does not hurt.... but I wish you could let your guard down more and see that it is not the majority... for you to do that, you have to come to our world... visit us and live between us... then you will understand more...
 
EK156
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 8:01 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
As I said, still playing the victim here EK . . . I don't buy it . . . neither does anyone else.

No one - in their right mind - claims that all Muslims are terrorists . . . that simple isn't true . . . period. I know it, Falcon knows it, so does everyone else that's tired of the gawddamn crybaby mentality . . . everything appears - APPEARS - to offend . . . WTF?

I'll say it again, get thicker skin. This whiney assed "oh poor me" scenario is really, really boring . . . and it doesn't hold water.

You are generalizing..... GENERALIZING.... which means calling out the majority.... so what is the majority for you huh??? 95%??? Waow atleast we still have 5%. Falcon just said it in the thread above you... he said it is the majority... so where do I stand??? Hmmmmmm

And this is exactly what I was talking about.... when we try to speak up... you say we are whinners.... so why should we talk to you huh???? I will take my words somewhere else where I feel I can make a change....
 
mandala499
Posts: 6460
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:02 am

Today we had an Islamofascist preaching on Friday prayer's... trying to raise money for the "struggle against the Zionists"... It was funny how few people turned up to donate afterwards... and also it was interesting that some people laughed during the sermon, though I did notice more bored faces and more people dozing off than usual... LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 43):
so where do I stand???

You tell me, where DO you stand?

Quoting EK156 (Reply 43):
I will take my words somewhere else where I feel I can make a change....

Take them toyour fellow Muslims that get their panties in a wad over a cartoon, or an Opera, or a quote by the Pope - seems that'd be the logical place to start . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting EK156 (Reply 43):
You are generalizing..... GENERALIZING....

No, YOU are generalizing. Nobody here or in any other thread I can think of has ever accused all Arabs or all Muslims of being terrorists, but rather certain people who call themselves Muslim, who draw their inspiration largely from Islam, and who enjoy the sympathy (as opposed to outright support) of many millions of people, again mainly because of the Islamic link.

You sound a bit like the NRA, who opposes any reasonable control on guns just out of principle, saying that just because the government wants to outlaw the ownership of heavy machine guns, bazookas and recoil-less rifles that it is the same as banning hunting rifles and revolvers.

There is a middle ground. We don't want to condemn all of Islam. But Islam must meet us halfway and admit that there is indeed a problem, and neither the US nor Israel is at fault.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 46):
No, YOU are generalizing. Nobody here or in any other thread I can think of has ever accused all Arabs or all Muslims of being terrorists, but

look at nrs 29 & 35 !! To say that a majority supports terrorist actions against "the West" is accusing all Arabs / all Muslims of being ........ being ........... being, well at least terrorist sympathizers, and that is an extreme and harsh accusation !
 
Duff44
Posts: 1561
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:48 am

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:21 am

I separate it completely.

I know plenty of people who practice Islam, and who a very faithful in their daily practices. And I have yet to see one of them strap a bomb to their chest or hijack a plane and crash it into a building. I know Islam to be peaceful because I have seen it first hand (I am not Muslim myself - I consider myself agnostic).

Terrorists are the ones that kill innocent people, and their actions "in the name of Islam/Allah" only bastardizes the religion as a whole. To lump them together will all of the Islamic world is flat wrong...
I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Islamic Fascism--Appropriate Name?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Islam is what motivates most of these terrorists.

And your extensive study of the religion has told you this, right? So have your many readings of the Quran, your living in an Islamic society, and your obviously good education... if you graduated high school, that is.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some infidels I need to hunt, its a prime sport for us "Islamofacists" these days  Yeah sure

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 29):
What I DO believe is a majority of the Arab/Islamic world either tacitly or openly supports of the actions of these groups against the west, and, certainly, Israel. But there's a difference.

So what EK said about you at least is correct - you believe we are either terrorists, terrorist sympathizers or haters. I'm not going to either bother with you, but for someone who has never even visited an Arab country, you really are full of it.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Indonesia got bombed?

Hatred, and an attack against the West, which these people see as on par with America. Don't forget that Australia backed the US during its invasion of Afghanistan, and that is where Al Qaeda operates from. Revenge, pure and simple.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Egypt got bombed?

Because they see the Egyptians as a American lap dogs and wan't to strike at anybody they see in line with America.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Jordan got bombed?

Jordan was trying to capture Zarqawi and were after him, and they were/are strongly clamping down on extremists, hence the attack, which cost the lives of dozens of Arabs, mostly Jordanians & Palestinians.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Spain got bombed?

Again, Spain backed the US and this is Al Qaeda's idea of revenge.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Turkey got bombed?

The US has several airbases in Turkey, a very pro-US country. These people probablyalso see Turkey as "infidels" due to it being secularized (if that is even a word).

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Marocco got bombed?

Morroco was probably bombed due to its Western nature and its friendliness to Jews, you have to think the way these people think - they see a West-oriented Arab country as an enemy straight away, hence the large amounts of attacks in the Middle East itself.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come India got bombed?

Hindu-Muslim tensions have existed for ages, violence between the two groups occurs occasionaly and it doesn't link with international terrorism.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Saudi got bombed?

Gee, I wonder? I mean, a regime that consists of some of the world's most hypocritical people and that is fully in line with the US, why would Al Qaeda want to bomb them? I'm sure the Al Sauds are Osama are best buddies.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 30):
And how come Russia got bombed?

The Chechen issue has nothing to do with other terrorist attacks, it is purely domestic and is a result of the conflict in Chechneya.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):
An issue with Islamic fundamentalist does not translate into an issue with all of Islam. And they're going to have to stop acting like children, and learn this vital lesson.

And there is one lesson that you guys are really having a hard time picking up - actions are louder than words! When you see Muslims being portrayed in a certain way wherever you go in the West, when a Muslim country was invaded for absolutley no good reason, when two more are being threatened also without good reason, and when there is unconditional support for a country responsible for killing thousnads of Muslims - what message is that supposed to send out?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):
America and the West have made some mistakes, and we have some tough lessons to learn. But a huge part of this problem is going to have to be corrected from WITHIN the Muslim community. The quicker they are pushed into learning how to play like big boys, the quicker we can move on to tackling problems that actually matter. And I'm sorry, but your desire to coddle them like a over protective mother coddles a child... is not how one fights a war.

So let me get this straight: WE need to change all by ourselves, even though you guys support many, many authoritarian regimes in the region, support Israel unconditionally and refuse to condemn anything, invade countries for no reason, threaten other countries, and continue to send a very aggressive message to Muslims. Yes, we have a lot we need to work on, but it is impossible if the US doesn't change its attitude. Your huge-ass screw up in Iraq just shows how little you know about our culture and winning people over.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
Yes.

Did you visit it at any time other than the Gulf War?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
As I said, still playing the victim here EK . . . I don't buy it . . . neither does anyone else.

Nobody else in America, which seems to be where the world's boundries end for you, RJ, Falcon, etc... If Americans think so, it must be true! Never mind that most Americans couldn't point out a Muslim country on a map.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 41):
so does everyone else that's tired of the gawddamn crybaby mentality . . . everything appears - APPEARS - to offend . . . WTF?

And this just suddenly started for no reason at all? Don't you think there would have to be something causing Muslims to be so defensive about things? I mean, there have been many measures taken in the Muslim world that are against Islamic principals, such as the banning of veils in the public service in Tunisia, yet I don't see people getting all pissy about that.

People react like this because they feel that the West is getting at them with every opportunity they get. Muslims are on the defensive because you guys have put them on it with your very aggressive attitude. Everything happens for a reason, ANC, nothing just happens for no reason - it is the same with terrorism, suicide bombings, protests over cartoons, etc; they all reached this sad stage because of past factors.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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