allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:40 am

Remember this?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1388983/

And then there's this from Richardnhsv from the Amish-shooting thread:

http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N29205059

We also have this going on:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/lasvegas.schools.ap/index.html

We also had this recently:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1386741/6/#ID1386741

Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution? That link about the CO school shootings, I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
nkops
Posts: 2153
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:43 am

I don't see a solution, who is to say the principal won't go nuts. The people that do these are usually everyday looking students or adults who unfortunately snap usually without warning.
:evil:
 
rammstein
Posts: 697
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms.

The question is: would he/she be able to use it in the proper way?
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:46 am

I was about to make a long post about secure controlled access points separate from the school facility to monitor everyone and everything going in or out... then I realized you could just shoot/stab/run over all the kids standing in line to get through.

Short of mandatory mental evaluations and counseling for the whole bunch of us, I can't think of an actual effective solution. But.. I can imagine what some people are going to say.

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:46:54]
My spelling blows today.

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:47:34]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
allstarflyer
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 2):
The question is: would he/she be able to use it in the proper way?



Quoting Nkops (Reply 1):
I don't see a solution, who is to say the principal won't go nuts. The people that do these are usually everyday looking students or adults who unfortunately snap usually without warning.

Vaild points, both. But, at least, I believe the option for them to have one available should not be denied them. And, perhaps, it's better to trust 2 or 3 people with access to firearms, instead of just one (in case the one goes nuts).

I do happen to be looking for other solutions as well, folks. Yes, this is a problem, yes, it does need to be addressed and confronted as such, and, yes, there should be discussion as to what possible solutions may be. Sometimes, I get sick of hearing only how awful things are with few or no solutions offered.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
nkops
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:50 am

what about metal detectors and x-ray machines like airports??
:evil:
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 5):
what about metal detectors and x-ray machines like airports??

That might help ease the problem of shootings inside a school, but what's to stop some madman from opening up on kids outside of the school, or any public place for that matter?




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
nkops
Posts: 2153
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 6):
That might help ease the problem of shootings inside a school, but what's to stop some madman from opening up on kids outside of the school, or any public place for that matter?

True, but most of these incidents are inside the schools... although I agree they could wait outside.

Hey, where is your British friend from the other post, surely he has a solution.
 Big grin
:evil:
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

It's not a bad idea. As long as they were trained properly I don't see a problem with it, it could help, and I doubt that it could hurt all that much, so long as the principal doesn't go on a "I'm packing heat you little brat" power trip.

But when I was in high school about 6 years ago there was a guy who decided that it would be a good idea to light our school bathroom on fire with a gallon of gasoline, which he hoped would ignite the pressurized gas in the adjacent room. The pressurized gasses were kept in a room and fed off to the chemistry classrooms. Thankfully there was a fire proof wall and nothing became of it other than a burnt out bathroom.

However, after that incident we had undercover police in our school all the time. And for a period of about two months we had a permanent police presence, didn't bother me in the least. I know that you can't post police at every school, but maybe as part of the patrol every hour or two they could just take a stroll down the halls of schools. Randomize the times, and perhaps the thought that there might be police in the school at any time could help reduce the threat. Just my .02 cents.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
nkops
Posts: 2153
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:35 am

All our middle schools and high schools in my county have city police stationed in them... rarely any violence!!


NWA742... wecome to my (short) RU list!!

[Edited 2006-10-03 00:45:34]
:evil:
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 7):
surely he has a solution

He says he can't provide one, simpy because he isn't an American.

Speaks volumes about his true colors.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution?



Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms. It may not be the best solution, but it might be, or, at least, a step in the right direction.

Since a couple of others have discussed this aspect of the discussion, I'll jump in here.

Arming educators in the schools works in Israel, in the Phillippines, and in Peru, and it should work here in the US.

Don't limit it to teachers, allow administrators, secretarial, and janitorial staff to carry with adequate background checks and training, on a volunteer basis. Your next airline flight might be piloted by someone who has been properly trained and is armed. If it's good enough to protect a planeful of people, why can't it be good enough to protect our kids? ( http://www.secure-skies.org/Pilots_In_Cockpit.php ) As has been proven, the police just can't make it there fast enough to help out when one of these situations occurs.

From what I understand, arming educators in Israel began after the Ma'alot school massacre, and has been very successful since, both in its rare actual employment and its daily deterrent effect. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalot_massacre )

Had the staff in any of the recent school shootings been trained and armed, several young people would still be alive tonight. Think of the deterrent effect that it might have. Even if it prevented one occurrence of this happening it would be well worth it.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 11):
Had the staff in any of the recent school shootings been trained and armed, several young people would still be alive tonight. Think of the deterrent effect that it might have. Even if it prevented one occurrence of this happening it would be well worth it.

Provided that they are all provided the proper training and given the right equiptment, which would be a given, I think you've got it bang on.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
cptkrell
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:29 am

Gee...I kinda THINK that maybe we should form an investigational panel to THINK about the problem so then they can form another investigational panel to THINK about what steps can be taken to THINK about how the problem might be minimised, and then have another investigational panel THINK about about what penalties what should be imposed on those who we THINK may be a problem to society because we THINK they may be just non-productive, screwed up shit-balls, or maybe we THINK they just have a different perspective on decency because we THINK they might have had an abusive childhood. Or maybe we THINK they might have just eaten too many BigMacs. Regards...jack
all best; jack
 
baroque
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:37 am

Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Sorry, missed the Canada flag, apologies.

[Edited 2006-10-03 04:38:34]

[Edited 2006-10-03 04:39:13]
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Sorry, missed the Canada flag, apologies.

Now that you have solved this problem for us Yanks, perhaps you can put your considerable intellect to use and figure out how to stop the islamofacisit suicide bombers that have killed hundreds of times the number of people over the last 5 years...we await your genius to provide the answer....
 
baroque
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 15):
Now that you have solved this problem for us Yanks, perhaps you can put your considerable intellect to use and figure out how to stop the islamofacisit suicide bombers that have killed hundreds of times the number of people over the last 5 years...we await your genius to provide the answer....

Rather touchy this evening are we not?

Assuming you mean Islamo-fascist suicide bombers, it is news to me that they have been doing school shootings. I must remonstrate with the ABC about their lack of this information.

I would have a different solution for suicide attacks and the school attacks.

First you should read what I have already posted on another thread about the term Islamo-fascist and how its misuse hides rather than illuminates the problem. Then, once we get over that hurdle, you could read numerous posts from me, or better yet Klaus and Schoenerama on how to discourage terrorist attacks.

I suspect your evening bout of dyspepsia, may make you less that immediately susceptible to persuasion on these matters so I will stop there.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Nobody seems to have wondered why there are no non-US posters. Could it be because there is an obvious answer, and I am the only one stupid enough to suppose it can be proposed?

Do you want to stop school shootings or do you want to stop school violence?

There's an interesting phenomenon I've noticed lately.

If you would allow me to, as a professor of mine used to say, "chase a rabbit."
In January 1989, a gunman wielding what is commonly described as an AK-47 committed the Stockton Massacre. The state of California responded with the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act, and of course the Federal Government followed several years later with the Federal assault weapons ban. Pivotal moments in both the anti-gun and pro-gun lobby. As is usual with knee jerk regulating, the model 56s rifle used in the massacre wasn't made illegal by either law. What were made illegal by the two bans however were three of the rifles used during the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. An AKM, an M-16, a Type 56 rifle. All three were also in violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934. Obviously, prior legislation did nothing to prevent this crime. In the worst irony of the North Hollywood shootout and it's legal repercussions, the gun store which provided the police with the needed weapons to combat the shooters, B&B Guns, was forced to shut down due to a lawsuit because they did not abide by the ten day waiting period while providing the police with rifles.


So, to get back on track... Will enacting an all encompassing ban on firearms in the United States stop school shootings? Maybe, maybe not. Previous bans certainly haven't stopped other crimes. Will it stop school violence? Most certainly not. As long as you put two people together in one area there is potential for violence, be it guns, knives, sticks, fists, or as Mr. Kubrick teaches us, shin bones. What will it do for certain? Eliminate 80,000 lawful uses of a firearm in self defense annually.

So, is outlawing guns such an obvious answer? Is Washington DC the safest place in the US?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12360
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:08 am

While attacks involving schools and other public places have happened all over the world, there seems to be more frequent and deadly when they happen. To me, industrialized societies far too often glorify violence with video games, movies, tv shows are often sources. They also glorify unsustainable and unobtainable lifestyles that many come to think they need. Bad parenting is epidemic. Schools have so much more to teach, with often decreasing incomes and resources,that used to be the responsibility of the parents who no longer have the time or interest in doing so. Many of those parents are under huge financial squeezes and cannot afford higher taxes to pay for the schools needs. Governments don't offer much hope or support for young people.
Schools must continue to be a major place to try to make our children part of society. We must properly fund schools. We must make parents more involved in their childrens life and education. We must use schools as a place to screen people with developing mental health problems. We must make sure they get proper health care in general. We must deal with the social competition, peer pressure, sports/athletic compeition common at schools that often leave many students with poor social skills and not feeling part of the school community. We must teach students better in how to deal with peer pressure as to sex, drugs, violence, social pressures.
Many schools have gone to uniforms or tight appearance codes to discourage gang activity, social competition and to de-sexify appearances. We need to look at ending proms and similar programs as they tend to discriminate against poorer students and those who's personal and religious beliefs discourage such activites. Perhaps we should have students instead do group activites to help their communities, encouraging teamwork and to break down the barriers of class, race, background, economic background. We need to make student more friendly to each other and help each other. We need to fire teachers who are not compentent or favor the easy students to teach.
I don't offer any real single answer, but rather with cooperation of many, perhaps we can make some school violence a lot less.
 
baroque
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 17):
So, to get back on track... Will enacting an all encompassing ban on firearms in the United States stop school shootings? Maybe, maybe not. Previous bans certainly haven't stopped other crimes. Will it stop school violence? Most certainly not. As long as you put two people together in one area there is potential for violence, be it guns, knives, sticks, fists, or as Mr. Kubrick teaches us, shin bones.

I can agree with many of the thoughts you post MDB, but in relation to the types of crimes we are talking about, guns have a singular utility. They are easy to use, directional so relatively precise, and suitable ones can kill relatively large numbers.

Yes, there would be other ways to achieve these horrible ends, but they are much more difficult, and in some cases more dangerous to the perpetrator.

It is a combination of ease of access, ease of use, and the relative remoteness from the actual killing blow that make guns so "attractive" and so deadly.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
I can agree with many of the thoughts you post MDB, but in relation to the types of crimes we are talking about, guns have a singular utility. They are easy to use, directional so relatively precise, and suitable ones can kill relatively large numbers.

Yes, there would be other ways to achieve these horrible ends, but they are much more difficult, and in some cases more dangerous to the perpetrator.

It is a combination of ease of access, ease of use, and the relative remoteness from the actual killing blow that make guns so "attractive" and so deadly.

That's special, really it is... but it says nothing to what I wrote.

Let me sum up what you wrote for other readers: "Guns are bad, M'kay"

I notice how you said nothing about the fact that despite very strict gun laws in DC and the combination of multiple Federal and state laws in the North Hollywood incident, firearms were/are still used to commit these crimes. AND THEY ARE BANNED. So please, tell us how further bans will help the problem. Do you think the criminals are going to suddenly give in and hand over their weapons when a fifth ban is enacted? I know your first answer, so I'll refute it for you. I predict a, "But it will be harder for the criminals to get guns." Oh really, and just how easy was it for them to get multiple automatic weapons? Very very hard. Near impossible. And yet, they get them. The people who supply automatic weapons aren't going to care about a new law either. It's been illegal since the '30s.

If you only read one portion of this post, or answer one question make it this one. Once you outlaw firearms in the US, how are you going to get them from criminals and keep them from getting new ones? A practical answer now. Since your solution is so "obvious" it shouldn't be a hard question to answer.

Perhaps once you come up with that solution we can start talking about solving violence that occurs without firearms.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
baroque
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
That's special, really it is... but it says nothing to what I wrote.

Let me sum up what you wrote for other readers: "Guns are bad, M'kay"

I am not sure who M'kay might be but that is not an accurate summary, so don't traduce me please.

What I said is that guns are really easy to use for bad purposes. It is indeed the people who are bad, the guns are guns. The leap in logic is that making it more difficult for bad folk to get guns, also makes it more difficult for them to use them for bad purposes.

Now when it comes to law enforcement, you are on your own. However, it is rather pointless to deny that some countries have successfully reduced gun crime and have restricted gun ownership. It is a simple fact, they have.

Illegal guns make the matter more complex. A main aim of our police is to reduce the number of illegal guns. They are not always successful, but they generally seem to think that stricter laws help with the illegals too.
 
texdravid
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:58 am

How about starting with strict new gun legislation. I know, I know, the "right to bear arms" b.s.

Well, weapons are hundreds of times more powerful in magnitude and 1 idiot+1uzi+several magazines/clips can wipe out 100 people!

This lunacy is intolerable.

We need real, sustained and strict gun enforcement now. This whole hunting culture in rural areas needs to go, as it is a medieval practice. Urban violence would be greatly curtailed if guns were taken out of the equation.

I'm so sick of gun-lovers, their apologists, etc. I wish they would all go to hell and we can stop mourning these innocent kids shot almost daily.

Arming school administrators, principals, and having x-ray machines is also good, don't get me wrong, but decreasing the amount of firepower out there to the average joe is tantamount.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
. However, it is rather pointless to deny that some countries have successfully reduced gun crime and have restricted gun ownership. It is a simple fact, they have.

Some countries have reduced gun crime, but have they reduced crime by eliminating guns?

You seem unable to make a distinction between gun crime and crime.

Eliminating a specific subset of crime is a pointless exercise in semantics.

I asked in the other thread if you were anti-firearm or anti-crime. I think it very significant that you didn't bother to answer. Will the world be a better place when people are stabbed, bludgeoned and beaten to death instead of being shot? The criminal dictates the crime, not the tool he uses.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
We need real, sustained and strict gun enforcement now. This whole hunting culture in rural areas needs to go, as it is a medieval practice. Urban violence would be greatly curtailed if guns were taken out of the equation.

I'm so sick of gun-lovers, their apologists, etc. I wish they would all go to hell and we can stop mourning these innocent kids shot almost daily.

Do you really think that keeping me from hunting would have saved those kids?

Do you?

If you do, I'm sorry for you.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
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RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
Since school shootings seem to be the crime du jour, does anybody (besides me) care to offer a solution?

How about stop bullying people and making them feel out of place? Could that start the ball rolling? If you think it is okay and normal I will not put a rose on your grave. That moron fatass Moore scapegoated the issue and dragged in guns and now everyone thinks school shootings are about the easily attainable firearms.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
aaden
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:49 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 5):
what about metal detectors and x-ray machines like airports??

that wont stop anything, the kids will just use an open window or shoot the security guards and then go into the school.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Thread starter):
I suggested the principals should be authorized to carry firearms.

most of the school shootings dont last long enough for a teacher to take action anyways.


The solution is simple, dont alienate your peers, dont call them names, and put them down based on who they are.
Then they wont be tempted to shoot their peers.
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:14 am

 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
Urban violence would be greatly curtailed if guns were taken out of the equation.

I disagree. Here's proof - check out this thread, reply 109:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1388983/

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 22):
I'm so sick of gun-lovers, their apologists, etc. I wish they would all go to hell and we can stop mourning these innocent kids shot almost daily.

Glad your heart is in the right place  sarcastic .

-R
Living the American Dream
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:31 pm

These school shootings aren't because of guns but are a symptom of our society. Modern day Americans (and gradually the rest of the world) have a mixture of extreme ideas of self entitlement and a society that no longer has the level of trust or committment that it once had. More and more people seem to think that they deserve to get everything they want out of life and when they don't get it, they can rightously resort to violence and go down in a "blaze of glory" and at least land on the news. The level of committment and trust are relevant because Americans used to have a relatively tangible conception of themselves as an American with certain duties and responsibilities to other Americans.

Of course there were huge exceptions such as slavery and unequitable spread of wealth, but overall there was a level of committment and trust that, at least partially, cohered us together and is now disipating.

I believe that it cannot be abated but is a social and historical step in the evolution of a type of culture that has never been seen on this planet before.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 28):

Well, I've got to admit that when I saw you had replied in this thread, I thought "oh shit, another one of those......", but your post was very insightful and summarized the situation very well. I have been looking for a long time for a way to explain it the way you just did.

Thank you for a very well-thought-out post and you've made me rethink my opinion of what to expect when I see certain usernames!
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Dealing With School Shootings

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:27 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 29):

Well, I've got to admit that when I saw you had replied in this thread, I thought "oh shit, another one of those......", but your post was very insightful and summarized the situation very well.

Thank you for the compliment, but I have to admit that it was due to no character trait of mine. It just so happens I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the other evening.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...

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