Falcon84
Topic Author
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Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:46 am

We're now 4 weeks out from the midterm, and the Foley fracas is definitely hurting the GOP. Most Americans think Bush deliberately lied in taking the nation to war on Iraq, and his approval rating is sinking again.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1543199,00.html?cnn=yes

It is looking like a Fall of discontent for the GOP. However, again, if the Dems take over Congress, and go for impeachment, I wouldn't be surprised if the GOP wins again in '08.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
KFLLCFII
Posts: 3174
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:24 am

There is much talk in the media about Foley hurting the GOP, but there is very little talk in the media about a possible backfire against the Democrats for what this could be perceived by Republicans as a liberal-media "witch hunt". Foley is and has been out of the picture since virtually day one of the scandal, yet they continue to push the issue to no end...

If anything, Foleygate could only strengthen the Republican base into such a collective voice as to say "We've already weeded out the bad apples, but we won't stand for this perpetual smear campaign."

You know, we can talk all day about Foley, or Iraq, or immigration, or whatever the hot topic of choice may be. But at the end of the day, when a person comes face to face with that voting machine... And it's just them, the two candidates' names appearing before them, and a gut feeling deep down inside saying "I don't want to experience the anger, the pain I felt on that one fateful day five years earlier again...Do I really want to gamble our national security in the hands of new leadership, when the status quo has already shown to be effective in this regard? Why change just for the sake of change when what we've got already works?"

The fact of the matter is, and as much as some people prefer not to believe, 9/11 and national security is still very much in the minds of many, many Americans. And although it may not always be the topic of choice in everyday current-events conversations, when it all comes down to the ballot, and a choice has to be made between one or the other, people will undoubtedly let their passion for security shine through.

Call it...the true trademark of the Silent Majority...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
itsjustme
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):


If anything, Foleygate could only strengthen the Republican base into such a collective voice as to say "We've already weeded out the bad apples, but we won't stand for this perpetual smear campaign."

Strongly disagree. As long as Repbulicans, including President Bush continue to support House Speaker Dennis Hastert and others who had knowlege of Foley's perverted acts but did not act on them, the Republican base will continue to be weakened. How can you say they have "weeded out the bad apples"? Those who knew of Foley's actions and covered for him are nearly as guilty as Foley.


Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
The fact of the matter is, and as much as some people prefer not to believe, 9/11 and national security is still very much in the minds of many, many Americans.

This article contradicts what you are saying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061006/pl_nm/bush_dc_4
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
There is much talk in the media about Foley hurting the GOP, but there is very little talk in the media about a possible backfire against the Democrats for what this could be perceived by Republicans as a liberal-media "witch hunt".

I don't doubt that it is. But it's only 4 weeks until the elections, and the Dems will do everything they can to keep this story alive. Since Foley is already gone, it appears that they are now trying to expose all instant messages and emails of other republicans and hopefully out a few gay republicans in order to piss off the religious right, and stop them from voting.

It's dirty politics, but it may end up being effective, especially considering that the Dems have been highly unsuccessful in winning votes based on a positive agenda - their slogan appears to be simply "Hate republicans and we are the alternative." I have not heard any specific plans on what they want to do if they regain power in terms of Iraq, Social Security, medical costs etc. Except raise taxes - they have said they would do that. Big surprise...
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
And it's just them, the two candidates' names appearing before them, and a gut feeling deep down inside saying "I don't want to experience the anger, the pain I felt on that one fateful day five years earlier again...Do I really want to gamble our national security in the hands of new leadership,

Yep. The Democrats are responsible for 9/11.  Yeah sure
Bring back the Concorde
 
bushpilot
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It is looking like a Fall of discontent for the GOP. However, again, if the Dems take over Congress, and go for impeachment, I wouldn't be surprised if the GOP wins again in '08.

Well this story surely is hurting the GOP. Hastert not stepping down is also going to come into play. He says he did nothing wrong, I havent heard him say when Hastert did find out about it. But thats alright, I think he has lost credibility among most people who are moderate. So I say let him stay he is going to cost the GOP the election.
I am tired of hearing about this impeachment, until someone can come up with an actual law that was broken, then the Democrats should really back off of this. It would be stupid, unwise, and idiotic to wait 12 years to win the house back, and then to spend the next two years working on impeachment and lose it all again. The democrats are probably going to have the house fall into thier laps. All they had to do is sit on a scandal that I am confident many of them knew was going to come out a month before the election. Now they need to figure out healthcare, immigration, education, and Iraq. They should not, I repeat not, spend the next two years trying to punish the GOP for Iraq and all this. Now is the time for them to step up and move thier agenda.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 2):
How can you say they have "weeded out the bad apples"? Those who knew of Foley's actions and covered for him are nearly as guilty as Foley.

There's a minor distinction I must make, in order to clarify this particular point in my first post: I'm not specifically making the claim as to whether or not they actually have weeded out all the bad apples, but instead attempting to put forth the perspective from the Republican base: That what they perceive as "bad apples" in their party have already been weeded out, and that any further continuation of this "witch hunt" (as they perceive it) is simply an attempt to smear...

And I maintain, if this does continue as a "see how many Republicans we can smear" campaign, you can be damn sure the Republican base won't just sit this one out like the Dems have bet the farm on.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 2):
This article contradicts what you are saying.

It does?

Republican pollster Whit Ayres doubted whether the Foley scandal would overwhelm the remainder of the election campaign and said Bush's message would still play ... "It's highly likely that the primary issues of this election will reemerge over the course of the next four weeks," Ayres said. Fighting terrorism, he said, "plays to everybody. The fear of a terrorist attack is just beneath the surface for most Americans."

Compared to:

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
The fact of the matter is, and as much as some people prefer not to believe, 9/11 and national security is still very much in the minds of many, many Americans.

You be the judge...  Wink

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Yep. The Democrats are responsible for 9/11.

Great way to misconstrue a post, 'Sup.  Yeah sure
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 6):
Great way to misconstrue a post, 'Sup

Hardly.
What you were saying is we should keep the Republicans in power since they were in power on 9/11. Why bother continuing having elections if you feel that the Republicans are the only party that is concerned about national security?
Bring back the Concorde
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:57 am

I think most people know that this is just political play by the left. What the congressman's nasty chat with the 18 yearold has anything to do with our lives and issues, and why Bush is down 36% is beyond me. By the way, Pres Clinton showed his johnson to a gov. clerk and maybe did more than that and he still has the balls to show his face on T.V. Isn't that a double standard..?
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
What you were saying is we should keep the Republicans in power since they were in power on 9/11.

Wait... A minute ago, it was "the Democrats are responsible for 9/11." Which one is it?  Yeah sure

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Why bother continuing having elections if you feel that the Republicans are the only party that is concerned about national security?

Last time I checked, this is a representative republic. Why would I stand in the way of anyone's right to free election?  Wink
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
texdravid
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:17 am

To back up the aforementioned title, please see below.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art..._true_blowout_is_now_possible.html

I truly feel that this isn't just going to be a Democratic takeover, it is going to be a giant tidal wave with Democrats winning big and taking over both houses of Congress.

Dumsfeld, er Rumsfeld and Jorge Arbusto and Condi Rice better look out and prepare accordingly. These three are going to be scalped.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:25 am

Let's see.....'those who live in glass houses, etc'.....Democrats 'sh*t don't stink'.....the cliche's go on and on. Frankly, if I had to pick one thing about the US that embarrasses me the most, it's the ways we go about bandying our politics. And yes, it's both parties, it doesn't matter who's in the White House, or who's in charge on the Hill. "Screw the other party, and who cares if we screw our people at the same time. It's all about what's best for me and my political future, not what's best for our country's future". No wonder we get laughed at. If I was on the outside looking in, I'd probably be laughing, too.

Rant over, it's Miller time.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
B777-700
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
there is very little talk in the media about a possible backfire against the Democrats for what this could be perceived by Republicans as a liberal-media "witch hunt".

No, it's not the medias fault. It's not the Dems fault...and I'm sure that one of your righties will bring up Clinton sooner or later...It's Foley's fault, and those who covered it up. (ie Republicans) Any thing else is an excuse to hide your insecurity.

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
If anything, Foleygate could only strengthen the Republican base into such a collective voice as to say "We've already weeded out the bad apples, but we won't stand for this perpetual smear campaign."

Then why has Karl Rove had a job for so long?  Yeah sure

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
And it's just them, the two candidates' names appearing before them, and a gut feeling deep down inside saying "I don't want to experience the anger, the pain I felt on that one fateful day five years earlier again...

Things have changed after 9/11. It's ok for the Republicans to hide their pedophiles...as long as Al Queda doesn't get me!  Yeah sure

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Do I really want to gamble our national security in the hands of new leadership, when the status quo has already shown to be effective in this regard? Why change just for the sake of change when what we've got already works?"

 rotfl 

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
There is much talk in the media about Foley hurting the GOP, but there is very little talk in the media about a possible backfire against the Democrats for what this could be perceived by Republicans as a liberal-media "witch hunt".

I don't doubt that it is.

Of course you don't. Because you're off your rocker.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
their slogan appears to be simply "Hate republicans and we are the alternative."

Replace Republicans with 'liberals' and you have the past 15 years of this country.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
I have not heard any specific plans on what they want to do if they regain power in terms of Iraq, Social Security, medical costs etc. Except raise taxes - they have said they would do that. Big surprise...

What does that have to do with anything? We're talking about how the Foley scandal is effecting the Presidents approval ratings...Did you not get that memo?

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
They should not, I repeat not, spend the next two years trying to punish the GOP for Iraq and all this.

Justice does need to be done.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
What the congressman's nasty chat with the 18 yearold has anything to do with our lives and issues,

Gee...where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah! Monica! That's exactly what most of the country thought!

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
and why Bush is down 36% is beyond me.

Um, because he sucks. I can't put that any more eloquently.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
By the way, Pres Clinton showed his johnson to a gov. clerk and maybe did more than that and he still has the balls to show his face on T.V. Isn't that a double standard..?

Hey! Just like I said! The righties automatically go to the 'blame Clinton' talking point!

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
I think most people know that this is just political play by the left.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
It's dirty politics, but it may end up being effective,

Yeah! It's a regular Swiftboating I tell ya!  Wink
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 9):
Why would I stand in the way of anyone's right to free election?

You are implying that we keep a Republican controlled government because of 9/11. Why even bother having elections if you feel the Republicans should always stay in power?
Bring back the Concorde
 
AirCop
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:37 am

The best part of this scandal its putting many more congressional (House and Senate) races in play. Personally, as an American, I want Washington to get back to working for the people that made this country great, not the big spenders, corporations, or having any more politicans more concern about their own self-interest.
 
diamond
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:41 am

Some conservatives wonder why such a big deal is being made out of Foleygate. It is because it comes on the heels of 30 other scandals - most of which remain unresolved.

It gets to a point where enough is enough. Foley could be the final straw.

The 'holding pattern' of scandals can be reviewed here:

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/01/18/scandal/index.html
Blank.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It is looking like a Fall of discontent for the GOP. However, again, if the Dems take over Congress, and go for impeachment, I wouldn't be surprised if the GOP wins again in '08.

I'll tell you why there will be no Bush impeachment: because if it happened, you'd wind up with the Prince of Darkness as president, that's why. Just too frightening to contemplate. Ride out the last two years with a lame duck and move on.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
I don't doubt that it is. But it's only 4 weeks until the elections, and the Dems will do everything they can to keep this story alive. Since Foley is already gone, it appears that they are now trying to expose all instant messages and emails of other republicans and hopefully out a few gay republicans in order to piss off the religious right, and stop them from voting.

It's dirty politics, but it may end up being effective, especially considering that the Dems have been highly unsuccessful in winning votes based on a positive agenda - their slogan appears to be simply "Hate republicans and we are the alternative." I have not heard any specific plans on what they want to do if they regain power in terms of Iraq, Social Security, medical costs etc. Except raise taxes - they have said they would do that. Big surprise...

To reinforce B777-700s comment, I seem to recall the Swift Boat veterans as being pretty dirty. But then I'm just an observer, not a citizen.

Foley could have been a Dem, but was a Republican. It could have occurred in either party. It's a damn shame when elected people (or anyone, for that matter) influence minors in such a manner (and don't think Canada is immune to sex-related scandals). The political scandal is that it appears there _may_ have been a cover-up. Just like a 3rd-rate burglary wasn't really the deal, it was the cover-up.

I don't know how much this will influence voters, but it surely can't be good news for the GOP. Coming on top of continued very bad news from Iraq, the Abramoff thing, Woodward's new book (esp. after the Administration praised the first two volumes), and the incredible financial position the US now finds itself in: world's largest debtor. Spending $7-8B/month in Iraq is not helping.

In fact, in the long run, it will be interesting to see how (or if) the US can wiggle off this hook: China now holds something over 10% of all US paper, and as time goes by and this amount increases, they will gain strategic influence. Especially when they become the world's largest economy -- which will be pretty soon.

But I'm wandering. I will watch the elections next month with keen interest.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 10):

He sounds so confident, yet so unsure at the same time. It's as if he's trying to put forth as many reasons why the Democrats should win this election as he can, just in an attempt to overcome the deafening ambiguity in his mind of the Republican base that he apparently seems to not fully understand. He almost sounds...dare I say it... scared...to accept the idea that Republicans may not buy into (or care) about all that is presented to them by the media. I almost feel sorry for him...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 12):
Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
If anything, Foleygate could only strengthen the Republican base into such a collective voice as to say "We've already weeded out the bad apples, but we won't stand for this perpetual smear campaign."

Then why has Karl Rove had a job for so long?

See the first paragraph in my reply #6 to gain the proper perspective distinction of my original post.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 12):
Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 1):
Do I really want to gamble our national security in the hands of new leadership, when the status quo has already shown to be effective in this regard? Why change just for the sake of change when what we've got already works?"

 rotfl 

Same as above.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Why even bother having elections if you feel the Republicans should always stay in power?

Tell ya what. Show me where I implied this:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
you feel the Republicans should always stay in power

...and I'll answer your question.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 10):
I truly feel that this isn't just going to be a Democratic takeover, it is going to be a giant tidal wave with Democrats winning big and taking over both houses of Congress.

I really doubt it, most know that Democrats have nothing to offer and there's too much at stake for angry Rep voters to vote Democrat. If there wasn't a war, no doubt the Democrats would take over but I'm not so sure about our current state.

[Edited 2006-10-07 01:27:17]
 
itsjustme
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
I think most people know that this is just political play by the left. What the congressman's nasty chat with the 18 yearold has anything to do with our lives and issues.

May I suggest you get your facts straight before you post here? The page Foley conversed with via the Internet was 16 years of age, not 18. That makes him a minor which means, depending on the contents of the messages Foley sent, there could be criminal charges involved. Not exactly the "political play by the left" you are trying to spin this as being.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
and why Bush is down 36% is beyond me.

I have a feeling quite few things are beyond you.
 
B777-700
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 19):
most know that Democrats have nothing to offer

And the only thing the Pedo...Uh, I mean Repubs have to offer is saying the Dems have nothing to offer.  Yeah sure
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 11):
Frankly, if I had to pick one thing about the US that embarrasses me the most, it's the ways we go about bandying our politics. And yes, it's both parties

This is what sickens me about our government. The current two parties are the most powerful entities in this country. The problem is that they area easily bought off, and its legal to do so. We need and have needed a major overhaul in DC.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 12):
No, it's not the medias fault. It's not the Dems fault...and I'm sure that one of your righties will bring up Clinton sooner or later...It's Foley's fault, and those who covered it up. (ie Republicans) Any thing else is an excuse to hide your insecurity.

Just a quick thought, I wonder how many democrats did know about this. When did they know. If Foley was breaking a federal law, they are just as guilty for not reporting it immediatly. I dont think for a minute that nobody on the left didnt know about it as long as they knew on the right. If it is shown that the democrats sat on this story until it was politically right for them. Those people should be in the same hot water.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 12):
Justice does need to be done.



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 16):
Ride out the last two years with a lame duck and move on.

I am not happy with either party these days, but if the Dems do win the house, which I think will happen, (I think the senate is a longer shot) it would be foolish of them to go right after impeachment. It makes for even less things getting done in DC than already are. Why why why would they spend 12 years waiting for this chance to win back the majority only to spend the next two years slinging more mud and not pushing thier agenda which im not convinced that they even have one. I think Connies is right, the Bush administration has been an embarrassing disaster for this country. Let history judge the President. We dont need trumped up impeachment proceedings going on. If the US legislative branch starts down this road, every President in the future will probably have impeachment hearings on them. Impeachment needs to be much much less about political fights and more about the matter of the law and dereliction of duty. Bush is on his way out, the dems need to rally the troops. Quit acting like whiny babies who need thier diapers changed and get some shit done. Get Iraq taken care of, get people health care, keep them safe from the boogie man, and figure out immigration. If the democrats can come up with solid workable plans about those 4 issues they will have the white house in 08.
 
Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:10 am

KFLLCFII:
Rather than answering my question with another question, why not just simply answer my question?
The President and his party's numbers are down for a reason and some Democrats are leading in high-profile races. You offer no substance what so ever that the Democrats don't care about nation security.

I have a sick feeling that Congress will stay Republican but not for the reason's you stated. I'll tell you why once you've answered my question.
Bring back the Concorde
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Rather than answering my question with another question, why not just simply answer my question?

How can I answer a question in regard to something I have yet to be shown where I even implied said "matter of fact"?

You made the claim that I feel the Republicans should always stay in power. If you can't even show me where I implied that, then it's a baseless question.

The ball is in your court...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
You offer no substance what so ever that the Democrats don't care about nation security.

And the Democrats offer no substance whatsoever that they *do*.

Does this imply that the Republicans should always stay in power? No. But it does, however, imply that the Democrats have a way to go before they can gain the trust of a large conservative base...and they're certainly not headed in the right direction if that's their motive. That said, I swear...on my mother's and father's grave...and on my own grave...that if any party, be it the Democrats, the Libertarians, the Greens, the Communists, or any other party that comes to the plate demonstrates that by giving them the nod, they will without a doubt do one hell of a better job keeping us safe than the Republicans, then they will have my vote.

Unfortunately, this won't happen in 2006. Perhaps in 2008, but two years isn't a whole lot of time for a complete 180° from any party to earn my trust. Nevertheless, the benefit of the doubt is still there. Only time will tell...

(And no, I'm not interested to hear your reason(s) why Congress will stay Republican.)  Wink
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:09 am

KFLLCFII:
It sounds like you have your mind made up and it doesn't sound like you are willing to listen to other sides unless it's a duplicate of what the Republicans are saying.
Bring back the Concorde
 
j_hallgren
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:13 am

When I heard about this, and how it is being treated by the media, it should make anyone who knows history of other similar scandals vote for Repub's more than before!...as someone who now lives seasonally in Mass. and remembers Gerry Studds and what happened to him, which was only censure followed by hearty approval by his (Dem) party, it makes me quite mad to see how Foley/Hastert are being treated...and the timing of this?
It was obviously held back by the liberal media until now, for maximum impact...if they were/are so concerned, why didn't they report it last year when they knew of it, as it turns out?
My basis for this is straight from a liberal paper itself: http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/05/Columns/Why_the_Times_didn_t_.shtml
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
They should not, I repeat not, spend the next two years trying to punish the GOP for Iraq and all this. Now is the time for them to step up and move thier agenda.

Oh... please do tell us exactly what the Democrats agenda is. I've really never heard it... seriously.. please, I'd like to hear it.. for all I know, their agenda is "Hate Bush" and "Cut and Run." Please... if they have one, tell me what the hell it is.
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cfalk
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
It sounds like you have your mind made up and it doesn't sound like you are willing to listen to other sides unless it's a duplicate of what the Republicans are saying.

Then you have not read his posts.

It is not sufficient to simply be not-Bush. The Democrats need to lay out their agenda, convince people that their agenda is better than the alternatives, and be voted in on the merits of their agenda and associated programs. Seeking to be elected simply because they are not republican is not a sufficient cause for support. By that measure, I could put up my cats for elected office and have the same claim to legitimacy as the democrats - my cats aren't Republican (I think they are a combination of anarchy and communism, actually  Smile)
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Superfly
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
and be voted in on the merits of their agenda and associated programs. Seeking to be elected simply because they are not republican is not a sufficient cause for support.

We shall continue this on November 8th.
So far, the polls say otherwise. Then again, polls are all just liberal propaganda right?  Yeah sure
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ArtieFufkin
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:52 pm

Here's a page that tracks Bush's approval rating via the top national polls. As mentioned earlier Bush is back into the 30's. But even the 40's is terrible for the GOP come November.

http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/fi...katzmainGRAPHICS_8911_image001.gif
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:00 pm

Here is Hotline's list of most competitive House seats ranked by order of likelihood to change party control.

Note: No Dem seat shows up until #30.

http://nationaljournal.com/racerankings/house/

[Edited 2006-10-07 12:06:43]
 
B777-700
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 24):
And the Democrats offer no substance whatsoever that they *do*.

Sure they do, you just chose to ignore it so you can go on saying your neocon talking point that the 'Dems have no plan'. It's easier for you guys to repeat what you're been told then to engage your brains.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 27):
Oh... please do tell us exactly what the Democrats agenda is. I've really never heard it... seriously.. please, I'd like to hear it.. for all I know, their agenda is "Hate Bush" and "Cut and Run." Please... if they have one, tell me what the hell it is.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
The Democrats need to lay out their agenda,

That's funny, it's been there all along right at the source...

http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html

It took me a whole 20 seconds to find it if you were really interested in knowing.

Next!  Yeah sure
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GuitrThree
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 32):
Next!

Ok.. Yea.. 6 Points.. let's examine..

Honest Leadership & Open Government
We will end the Republican culture of corruption and restore a government as good as the people it serves, starting with real ethics reform.


Umm. William Jefferson and Cynthia McKinney come to mind? Both parties have their crooks, cheats, and general idiots.

Real Security
We will protect Americans at home and lead the world by telling the truth to our troops, our citizens and our allies. We believe in a strong national defense that is both tough and smart, recognizing that homeland security begins with hometown security.


Umm. By killing the Patriot act? By letting terrorists at Gitmo go? By stopping proven techniques to stopping terror like the foreign surveillance plan? By leaving Iraq telling the terrorist we can't stop them? Those things are going to protect us? Really?

Energy Independence
We will create a cleaner, greener and stronger America by reducing our dependence on foreign oil, eliminating billions in subsidies for oil and gas companies and use the savings to provide consumer relief and develop energy alternatives, and investing in energy independent technology.


This one is grand. Energy Independence starts with US providing OUR own oil. The dems say we can't drill off the gulf or anywhere, for that matter. No do they want to allow us new refineries. Nor do they want us to use wind power where their richest, most well known Senators live.

Economic Prosperity & Educational Excellence
We will create jobs that stay in America and restore opportunity for all Americans, starting with raising the minimum wage, expanding Pell grants and making college tuition tax deductible. We also believe in budget discipline that reduces our deficit.


Another wonder. How, by forcing Companies to pay more to employees, will that create jobs that will "stay in America." All that will do is drive more companies to cheaper countries, like Mexico. And not because the minimum wage is going up. Most areas the starting wage for many jobs is already $7.00 plus. The problem is that the higher paying jobs, $10-15 an hour, will now demand more. Budget Discipline and Democrats? Really? In the same sentence? Now, I know the Republicans of late have personally gone to the Democrats and learned how to overspend, but to claim the Democrats will cut anything in the Budget besides military is a joke.

A Healthcare System that Works for Everyone
We will join 36 other industrialized nations in making sure everyone has access to affordable health care, starting by fixing the prescription drug program and investing in stem cell and other medical research.


Really. Is that why so many wealthy Canadians come here for health care? Because its so good up there? Besides that, we are already investing in stem cell research. Fact is, Bush was the first and only president ever to allow stem cell funding.

Retirement Security
We will ensure that a retirement with dignity is the right and expectation of every single American, starting with pension reform, expanding saving incentives and preventing the privatization of social security.


Now this one is good. Pension reform is needed. BUT SO IS THE PRIVATIZATION OF SS. It is the ONLY way it will work for someone who actually wants to retire with a livable retirement. The system will go broke if something isn't done.

Now really, B777, there is really nothing here. Just utter words. Take the Retirement Security point. It sounds good, but read it. What exactly are they going to do to fix SS? Just let it be? Make the worker pay more in deductibles/savings? There is NOTHING of substance in this "plan."
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JGPH1A
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
By letting terrorists at Gitmo go?

Prove they're actually terrorists, and you get to keep 'em. So far, LOTS of detention, not too much proof.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 34):

Prove they're actually terrorists, and you get to keep 'em. So far, LOTS of detention, not too much proof.

Oh yea.. that little detail of us RE-capturing a number of them once again trying to kill our Soldiers in Iraq after we let them go slips your mind, huh?

How about this.. we'll release them in your little French Territory. You'd be ok with that?
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JGPH1A
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 35):
Oh yea.. that little detail of us RE-capturing a number of them once again trying to kill our Soldiers in Iraq after we let them go slips your mind, huh?

So on what basis were they let go in the first place ? If you let the ones go who ARE "illegal combatants" and don't put the rest on trial, how are you ever going to catch the real terrorists ? Besides, if you'd been held illegally and tortured for a few years because you happened to be in the area when the bounty was announced and the Northern Alliance felt like cashing in, you'd feel like getting a few licks in just for payback, I'm sure. Hence the growth in terrorist recruitment as a result of the invasion of Iraq. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
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cfalk
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 32):
That's funny, it's been there all along right at the source...

http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html

It took me a whole 20 seconds to find it if you were really interested in knowing.

Sorry, but that is a load of BS.



Quote:
Honest Leadership & Open Government
We will end the Republican culture of corruption and restore a government as good as the people it serves, starting with real ethics reform.

Let's see now, the last Republican scandal involved unauthorized ass. The last Democratic scandal involves bribes. Which is more corrupt? And what is "real ethics reform"? Give me specifics on what would be made illegal/legal.

Quote:
Real Security
We will protect Americans at home and lead the world by telling the truth to our troops, our citizens and our allies. We believe in a strong national defense that is both tough and smart, recognizing that homeland security begins with hometown security.

Hometown security? Sounds like they want to federalize the local sheriff's department. Somewhat of a constitutional issue there. Telling the truth? Since when is waging war based on telling the truth? Any 5 year old knows that the way you beat your enemy is to hit him by surprise, not letting him know what you know and what you are doing until you hit him in the face with it. That means keeping secrets. And our enemies watch our TV, read our newspapers, and the more people you tell a secret to within governments (ours or others) increases the likelihood of leaks. Secrets are necessary to warfare.

Unless you go the brute force method. If you use the US Army as a steamroller, killing and destroying everyone and everything in its path, then you can do without a lot of secrets, because it just doesn't matter what the enemy knows. But I figure that killing of 200 million people might have some slightly disagreeable results in terms of the US image abroad. The alternative is surgical operations, and that means secrets.

They say they believe in strong defence? Then why has the Democratic party complained about or opposed virtually every single measure proposed to improve the nation's security over the past 6 years? What specific programs have the Democrats proposed (or will propose) to improve national defence capability and effectiveness? I don't recall any. Do you?

Quote:
Energy Independence
We will create a cleaner, greener and stronger America by reducing our dependence on foreign oil, eliminating billions in subsidies for oil and gas companies and use the savings to provide consumer relief and develop energy alternatives, and investing in energy independent technology.

Sounds nice, but specifically what and how? Will they allow drilling in more US territory, improving the supply/demand relationship and lowering cost? Will they mandate reasonable and technologically and financially doable programs to reduce oil consumption, such as a 100% surtax on any vehicle that cannot achieve 30 mpg? A reduction of the diesel tax in relation to gasoline? A results-oriented program of university grants into alternative fuels research? What? Be specific. I want a program, not just pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Quote:
Economic Prosperity & Educational Excellence
We will create jobs that stay in America and restore opportunity for all Americans, starting with raising the minimum wage, expanding Pell grants and making college tuition tax deductible. We also believe in budget discipline that reduces our deficit.

Increasing the minimum wage will only increase pressure to export jobs, especially unskilled ones, so that is a contridiction. Specifically, how does a government create jobs? It doesn't. Government is a natural brake to economic growth, except in its role as an enforcer of standard rules which keep a level playing field for economic generators (such as anti-trust laws and audit standards.)

And as we all know that competition is the prime motivator for improved performance, how can the Dems say they will improve education when they refuse to allow public schools compete with private schools and other public schools on a level playing field? Explain the refusal to consider the voucher programs.

Quote:
A Healthcare System that Works for Everyone
We will join 36 other industrialized nations in making sure everyone has access to affordable health care, starting by fixing the prescription drug program and investing in stem cell and other medical research.

Why don't they just SAY IT?!? The 36 nations they talk about have a nationalized health care system. Just come out and say so.

BTW, how do you make something that is inherently costly "affordable"? Limit doctors' income? Provide federal funding for med schools to lower the debt doctors must pay off? Limit malpractice suits? Make companies that do medical reseach tax exempt? What? I want specifics.

And how exactly will you "fix" the drug program? With a screwdriver? Give us specifics.

Quote:
Retirement Security
We will ensure that a retirement with dignity is the right and expectation of every single American, starting with pension reform, expanding saving incentives and preventing the privatization of social security.

Specifically, how will you do this? What reforms? How will you encourage more savings? What alternative do you have to privatizing social security?

I want to see a list of bills that the Democrats wish to table. Preferably a 1-page summary of each one. It's easy to come up with a simplified agenda that few can argue against. Most of those points even republicans support. For example, health care for all - it's just that we believe it can be done 100% via private enterprise (Switzerland has 100% coverage, and it is all via private insurers, for example)

Be specific, and we will pay attention. Bloviate, and we won't. Simple.
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B777-700
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
Umm. William Jefferson and Cynthia McKinney come to mind? Both parties have their crooks, cheats, and general idiots

What do they have to do with anything? No one cares about the past. We need to do something about the present and future. Both are currently mest up.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
Umm. By killing the Patriot act? By letting terrorists at Gitmo go? By stopping proven techniques to stopping terror like the foreign surveillance plan? By leaving Iraq telling the terrorist we can't stop them? Those things are going to protect us? Really?

Wow, I didn't see any of that in there...all I saw was:

We will protect Americans at home and lead the world by telling the truth to our troops, our citizens and our allies. We believe in a strong national defense that is both tough and smart, recognizing that homeland security begins with hometown security.

Do the words magically change when you look at them thru red tinted glasses?..lol

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
This one is grand. Energy Independence starts with US providing OUR own oil.

And that right there is a very telling sign of show shortsighted you, and by extention your party is.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 33):
Now really, B777, there is really nothing here. Just utter words.

No shit, Sherlock!...that's what an agenda is!

People like you are impossible. You asked for the agenda, and there it is. You never said it had to satisify YOU.

The GOP had 9 on their agenda, a few of which are very similar. And they actually have the NERVE to list 'spending restraint' as one of them!  rotfl 

Anywho, the rest of your post is the same GOP talking points, which I'm not going to get into, because your type just wants to talk about anything but your latest embarrassment. The subject at hand is how your party, the party of 'family values' and 'morality' had a gay pedophile in it's ranks, and covered it up.

The fact that you want to make this about the Dems agenda show quite clearly that your kind is in full panic mode.
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Joni
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
It's dirty politics, but it may end up being effective, especially considering that the Dems have been highly unsuccessful in winning votes based on a positive agenda -

The Democrats have, according to the perception I've got, so far not embraced negative campaigning and outright fraud to the extent the Republicans have, thus they're in the minority currently even though large majorities of Americans in fact favour even their more "left" ideas, like universal healthcare even if it means increasing taxes.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 30):
Here's a page that tracks Bush's approval rating via the top national polls. As mentioned earlier Bush is back into the 30's. But even the 40's is terrible for the GOP come November.

What I can't wrap my brain around is who are these 36% who support Bush? Based on fundamentals his rating should be much closer to 6% than 36%.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 37):
Since when is waging war based on telling the truth? Any 5 year old knows that the way you beat your enemy is to hit him by surprise, not letting him know what you know and what you are doing until you hit him in the face with it. That means keeping secrets. And our enemies watch our TV, read our newspapers, and the more people you tell a secret to within governments (ours or others) increases the likelihood of leaks. Secrets are necessary to warfare.

I think the idea here is that the Dems don't plan to lie to the electorate about their conspiracy to launch a war against another country. Of course if you're attacked and pulled into a war, certain things are best kept secret, but what the Bush admin. has done is approaching Stalinism.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 38):
What do they have to do with anything? No one cares about the past. We need to do something about the present and future.

Do something about the Present. Are you trying to say that anyone that committed a crime in the past, i.e., the above examples, are not relevant?
Oh really? Then why are the dem's having an absolute fit over the Foley "Scandal" when it actually happened BEFORE Cynthia McKinney (this year) *and* the Jefferson bribe crimes (occurred from 2001-2005).

Saying what they have to do with "anything" is rubbish and simply shows your bias. You have Nancy Pelosi just yesterday saying she was going to drain the conservative swamp of corruption, make it an "agenda point," and not just any, the #1 point, and people like you walk around like a blind troll and ignore the same type of issues the democrats have and spew this most of the time media-hyped incorrect charges. Carl Rove and Plamegate come to mind? There were members here and in the media talking about what it was going to look like when Rove was walked to prison wearing orange. Carl Rove did nothing wrong in that case. I call it an unjust, bias, and purposefully wrong charge, you call it another example of the "Culture of Corruption."

Unlike the Democrats, when the Republicans find they have someone that actually did something wrong, like Foley, they kick his ass to the street. When the Democrats have a member of their party, on tape, taking $100,000 of bribes, they don't do a thing. And the Democrats are the ones going to clean up government. Yea, the hell right.
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B777-700
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 40):
Carl Rove and Plamegate come to mind? There were members here and in the media talking about what it was going to look like when Rove was walked to prison wearing orange. Carl Rove did nothing wrong in that case. I call it an unjust, bias, and purposefully wrong charge, you call it another example of the "Culture of Corruption."

Just because you're not going to be indited doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong. Rove is dirty and you know it, it just works in your favor so you keep quiet about it.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 40):
Unlike the Democrats, when the Republicans find they have someone that actually did something wrong, like Foley, they kick his ass to the street.

Ok, we'll be expecting you guys to remove Hassert then soon, right?  Yeah sure

As for the rest of your post...same GOP talking points. Deflect, deflect, deflect. I guess since the Dems had some bad apples too we should let this whole Foley / GOP hiding a pedophile thing slide right?

You guys fuct up here, there's no excuse, and you have no one to blame but your leaders. You've tried all the typical targets...Clinton, Dems, the 'liberal media'...it's not working.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
Ok, we'll be expecting you guys to remove Hassert then soon, right?

For what? I've not seen any evidence of a cover up yet, have you?

But, yes. If it comes to light that he covered something up, he needs, and will go.

However, if it comes to light that dem's have hidden this story for months to spring it now, will you recommend the same?
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ArtieFufkin
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
What I can't wrap my brain around is who are these 36% who support Bush? Based on fundamentals his rating should be much closer to 6% than 36%.

It's the same 43% that still after all these years think Iraq had something to do with 9/11. Bush's base is very religious and in general do not follow issues or current events. They are great at being led. They have "faith" rather than thinking for themselves. Most importantly they lack critical thinking skills. Every country has this crowd to some extent. It's the same crowd that votes for Mugabe in Zimbabwe, the same crowd that bought the French book (and made it a best seller) claiming the 9/11 hit on the Pentagon was staged.

In Europe, thankfully they are laughed at. But I see even in Australia these snake oil salesmen taking root. I'm thinking the Evangelists, the real estate seminars, overindulgence in celebrity and TV stars. They are on the same road the USA is going down.
 
cfalk
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RE: Snapshot: Foley Hurting GOP, Bush Down To 36%

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
The Democrats have, according to the perception I've got, so far not embraced negative campaigning

This is planet Earth calling... Earth to Joni... The past few years has been nothing but negative campaigning.

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
outright fraud to the extent the Republicans have,

I remember a study made during the 2004 election that showed how Democrats were the beneficiaries of most of the fraud that has taken place in the last 2 presidential elections, including letting felons vote and registering dead people. It is democrats who are the most vocal opponents to requiring such basics such as showing a picture ID when showing up at a polling station. It is absolutely clear to me that the reason for this is to make it easier for people to vote fraudulantly.

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
I think the idea here is that the Dems don't plan to lie to the electorate about their conspiracy to launch a war against another country.

Prove that he lied. Poor judgement, yes, but lying is a much more serious charge, and in spite of 3 years of BS not one single person has come up with a convincing argument that he lied.
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