AerospaceFan
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Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:04 am

The foreign secretary of Mexico has said that he is exploring the possibility of requesting that the UN conduct a legal investigation into the decision of the United States to build a fence to secure American borders from illegal immigration. The 700-mile divider would consist of two layers of fencing stretching across vast areas of entry into the United States from Mexico

Luis Ernesto Derbez, who will leave office with the Administration of Vicente Fox when the latter's term expires in December, said that he had discussed the fence with the French foreign minister and intends to bring up the issue with his counterparts in Italy and Spain in visits later this year.

Mexico's persistent inability to provide for its poorest citizens has led to their massive outflow into its northern neighbor over the past decade, and estimates of the numbers of illegal aliens inside the United States, most of whom are Mexican, range from 12 to 20 million.

Mexico has repeatedly refused to condemn the violation of U.S. immigration law by its own citizens, which it considers a matter of mere economic "migration". By comparison, illegal aliens in Mexico from south of its own border are often treated harshly and summarily deported back to their countries of origin.

Many Americans are frustrated with the Mexican government's apparent inability to comprehend what they see as the costs of illegal immigration to the United States. Mexico has asserted that it will hold U.S. authorities to the highest international standards for the treatment of its own citizens and considers Mexicans living in the United States to be entitled to its full protection. Despite this, Mexico prohibits U.S. citizens from owning land in that country and bars political activity by U.S. citizens against its government.

Other Americans, including President Bush, contend that illegal aliens do jobs that Americans won't do, or aren't doing, and are a positive benefit to the U.S. economy.

For news concerning Secretary Durbez's comments, please see:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2006/10/09/AR2006100900788_pf.html

[Edited 2006-10-10 00:32:03]
What's fair is fair.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: Mexican Says Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:07 am

I'm sorry, but as long as the fence, no matter how useless it will be, is on our side of the border, they Mexicans are SOL. Rather than waste time attempting for UN action, which will go no where, how about you come up with plans for your poorest citizens.

Idiot.


Chris
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AirCop
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:10 am

Well since the government authorized $1.2 billion to construction the fence, and the estimates are twice that much, I don't think Mexico has to worry about the fence anytime in the near future.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:13 am

I, too, am annoyed that the Mexican government seems so determined to force our policy to be the same as its own.

If Americans want to protect our own sovereignty, we should certainly be able to do so without foreign, or UN, interference.
What's fair is fair.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:20 am

Now that's the way to form healthy relations and good will.
"Take all the victims of our failed economy or else".
I say fine, if you want to be like one big country, then it should be one big county. Mexico (and her economy) should just be annexed if that's the way they want it. Otherwise, get out of our affairs!

You'd be surpirsed if you knew where all this illegal immigration come from. I know folks living in Mexico and they all tell me that this is due to the pervasive racism there. They say that there are big issues with the predominantly white, Spanish-decended Mexicans and the native Indian-decended Mexicans. They said that they (the white Spaniards) want to be rid of all the Indians and one method is by pushing them north. Disgusting if you ask me.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 4):
They said that they (the white Spaniards) want to be rid of all the Indians and one method is by pushing them north. Disgusting if you ask me.

I did not know this! This is indeed shocking.

However, I was aware that pure-blooded indigenous people, mestizos and other nonwhites are often relegated lower-ranking jobs in Mexican society, quite possibly because of discrimination.
What's fair is fair.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:45 am

Perhaps the US should use part of this $1.2B to vie for a stronger social support network in Mexico, do something to aid their poorest citizens like Chris says in Reply #1. Many may not risk life to come here.

A fence will never work. What little fence we have now does not work.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:34 am

Too bad so sad for the Mexico government. It's out fence, it's on our side of the border, we can build what ever the hell we want . . . Unlike the great wall around East Berlin, this is designed to keep people out, not keep people in. As useless as this fence will be, the point is moot.

Perhaps our Secretary to the UN should discuss sanctions with UN against Mexico . . . for every illegal immigrant we have enter this country - with the assistance and approval of the Mexican Gov't I might add - we increase sanctions?  silly 

Ridiculous.

The Fence is useless. The proprosed Mexican gov't action is useless.

Our member here that assists the Illegal Immigrants in getting across the border will have to modify his escape manual though . . . that's about the only good this fence will do.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
searpqx
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
However, I was aware that pure-blooded indigenous people, mestizos and other nonwhites are often relegated lower-ranking jobs in Mexican society, quite possibly because of discrimination.

This is a common issue in much of Latin America, and as it has been in the past, is partly responsible for the social and political upheaval that is occuring. Bolivia is a prime example.

As for Mexico's complaint - tough shit! As much as I oppose the fence, the Mexican Government has not a leg to stand on.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The foreign secretary of Mexico has said that he is exploring the possibility of requesting that the UN conduct a legal investigation into the decision of the United States to build a fence to secure American borders from illegal immigration. The 700-mile divider would consist of two layers of fencing stretching across vast areas of entry into the United States from Mexico

Well, I guess we know now that at least some of the drugs transiting Mexico on their way to the US are being diverted for use in Mexico. Regardless of how ineffective a fence will be in practice, for the Government of Mexico to think it has a case against the US for tyring to secure its own border - a basic right of every nation state - has to be one of the looniest ideas I've ever heard.

And since I work in DC, I hear of many loony ideas....

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 4):
You'd be surpirsed if you knew where all this illegal immigration come from. I know folks living in Mexico and they all tell me that this is due to the pervasive racism there. They say that there are big issues with the predominantly white, Spanish-decended Mexicans and the native Indian-decended Mexicans. They said that they (the white Spaniards) want to be rid of all the Indians and one method is by pushing them north.

I wouldn't be surprised at all. Every time I've sat down across the table from a Mexican delegation, their delegation has been fairer skinned than ours across the board.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The foreign secretary of Mexico has said that he is exploring the possibility of requesting that the UN conduct a legal investigation into the decision of the United States to build a fence to secure American borders from illegal immigration.

The foriegn secretary of Mexico and the UN both can put this  puckerup  right here  arrow   butthead  .

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Mexico has repeatedly refused to condemn the violation of U.S. immigration law by its own citizens, which it considers a matter of mere economic "migration". By comparison, illegal aliens in Mexico from south of its own border are often treated harshly and summarily deported back to their countries of origin.

I'd like to know more about that last part. It wouldn't surprise me, I just haven't really heard much about that.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Mexico has asserted that it will hold U.S. authorities to the highest international standards for the treatment of its own citizens and considers Mexicans living in the United States to be entitled to its full protection.

Again  puckerup   arrow   butthead  . They have no sovereignty and neither does the Utter Nonsense (unless the spineless lawmakers give it to them  sarcastic  ) .

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Other Americans, including President Bush, contend that illegal aliens do jobs that Americans won't do, or aren't doing, and are a positive benefit to the U.S. economy.

That's bull. Plenty of folks wouldn't mind doing some of the grunt work (hotel laundry, office space cleaning) if it paid OK. From what I see, people have just become accustomed to seeing Latin Americans work in those jobs and probably (prejudicially) conclude that those jobs are the lowest paying (which they may be) and that the bosses of these companies see that they can get away with paying the lowest wages possible to have these jobs done.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 1):
UN action, which will go no where

 checkmark 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Our member here that assists the Illegal Immigrants in getting across the border will have to modify his escape manual though . . . that's about the only good this fence will do.

Yeah, it's a taxpayer-funded piece of garbage anyway. It will hardly deter the inflow - it will just make the illegals have to think more creatively about how to get across.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
rojo
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The foreign secretary of Mexico has said that he is exploring the possibility of requesting that the UN conduct a legal investigation into the decision of the United States to build a fence to secure American borders from illegal immigration. The 700-mile divider would consist of two layers of fencing stretching across vast areas of entry into the United States from Mexico

Derbez doesn't deserve to be the foreign secretary of Mexico... he is quite stupid and was actually told to back up in his desire to take the fence issue to the UN. Fortunately, it is less than 2 months for him to leave his position as foreign secretary. I am actually in favor of the fence, since it will not only stop illegal immigration, but drug dealing. And I don't understand why they complain that much, since the US already build part of the fence in San Ysidro and Otay...

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 4):
You'd be surpirsed if you knew where all this illegal immigration come from. I know folks living in Mexico and they all tell me that this is due to the pervasive racism there. They say that there are big issues with the predominantly white, Spanish-decended Mexicans and the native Indian-decended Mexicans. They said that they (the white Spaniards) want to be rid of all the Indians and one method is by pushing them north. Disgusting if you ask me.

Ok, this one made me laugh... it is far from being truth. I am a Spanish descendant holding both, Spanish and Mexican citizenship and neither me nor any of my friends and family want the people that you call Indian descended Mexicans to go to the US. Poverty in Mexico is a very complex problem that needs to be solved by educating people. Part of this education needs to be sexual education, since they need to understand that having up to 12 children without the resources to take care of them is not going to take them anywhere...

Illegal immigration is a very difficult topic to discuss. I have been in both sides of the problem. I have lived in Spain where there are tons of immigrants from Africa and Latin America trying to get into the country by sea and air hoping to get a better life and I have also lived in Mexico where people try to cross the US border hoping also for a better life because the Mexican economy does not give them good job opportunities to support their families, therefore, every country has its own rights to seal its borders without any foreigner complaining about it...
 
deltagator
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The foreign secretary of Mexico has said that he is exploring the possibility of requesting that the UN conduct a legal investigation into the decision of the United States to build a fence to secure American borders from illegal immigration.

When Mexico extends the same rights and such that we extend to immigrants, legal or illegal, entering from Mexico then he can complain. Until then he can STFU. Doing something to stop the influx of illegals into the US (which the wall would barely make a dent in) will lessen the amount of money going back to Mexico from them. That is what the real beef Mexico has with the wall.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Despite this, Mexico prohibits U.S. citizens from owning land in that country and bars political activity by U.S. citizens against its government.

See above comment about rights extended to us while in Mexico.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Other Americans, including President Bush, contend that illegal aliens do jobs that Americans won't do, or aren't doing, and are a positive benefit to the U.S. economy.

And it's a BS excuse. The sense of entitlement that some folks have is amazing in our country. Folks that can barely read and shouldn't be out unsupervised become celebrities (Paris Hilton, Nicole Richie) and other moronic dingbats, rednecks/trailer trash, assorted other trash of varying colors, guidos and peckerwoods think that they deserve a well paying job when they dropped out of high school and had 7 kids with 5 women by their 21st birthday just don't get that the world doesn't work that way for everyone. As Judge Smails said in Caddyshack...the world needs ditchdiggers too.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
N1120A
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 6):
Perhaps the US should use part of this $1.2B to vie for a stronger social support network in Mexico, do something to aid their poorest citizens like Chris says in Reply #1. Many may not risk life to come here.

Or perhaps the $1.2B could be spent domestically, where it is really needed.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 6):
Perhaps the US should use part of this $1.2B to vie for a stronger social support network in Mexico, do something to aid their poorest citizens like Chris says in Reply #1. Many may not risk life to come here.

Or perhaps the $1.2B could be spent domestically, where it is really needed.

Exactly, we already support Mexico's economy with Billions of US$$$ sent south every year - by design or default. Whether it be engines built in Hermosillo for Ford Motor Company or Illegal Immigrants sending their wages home. Perhaps that $1.2B could be spent say on renovating the school in DC, or maybe reducing health care costs for the elderly, or how about we properly fund VA hospitals to take care of the wounded returning from Iraq and Afghanistan . . . now there's a novel thought.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Or perhaps the $1.2B could be spent domestically, where it is really needed.

Or diverted into the DoD budget. Where it is needed more.  scratchchin 

-UH60
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scamp
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:37 pm

Even as a proud, card-carrying, commie-pinko liberal I too am a strong opponent to illegal immigration. The idea of building a fence along the border being as effective at stemming illegal immigrants as invading Iraq was at stopping Islamic extremist terrorism. The only difference is a fence will be unlikely to cause an increase in illegal immigrants. Tough shit...if Mexico doesn't like it they can bite me and anyone else with strong stand against illegals.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
rojo
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Despite this, Mexico prohibits U.S. citizens from owning land in that country and bars political activity by U.S. citizens against its government.

This is not true. Although the Mexican constitution states in Art. 27 that foreign citizens can't own land located 100 miles from the borders and 50 miles from the coasts (I know most of the tourist cities are located in this area), there are ways to buy the land. The Mexican government allows foreign citizens to establish what we call "fideicomisos", which is an indirect ownership of the land through a Mexican Bank (like Banamex in Mexico which is 100% owned by Citigroup). Therefore, you can own a property in Cancun if you want with the comfort of having a fideicomiso through a US subsidiary in Mexico.
 
AirCop
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:41 pm

One side question about the fence, what do you do with the cities such as Nogales which is both on the American and Mexico side, do you divide it up like Berlin?
 
deltagator
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
Although the Mexican constitution states in Art. 27 that foreign citizens can't own land located 100 miles from the borders and 50 miles from the coasts (I know most of the tourist cities are located in this area), there are ways to buy the land.

Why would I want to live somewhere not near the beach? Seems like a waste to me.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
The Mexican government allows foreign citizens to establish what we call "fideicomisos", which is an indirect ownership of the land through a Mexican Bank (like Banamex in Mexico which is 100% owned by Citigroup).

And I'm sure the Mexican government makes an assload of money off of this setup at the foreigners expense.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
Therefore, you can own a property in Cancun if you want with the comfort of having a fideicomiso through a US subsidiary in Mexico.

Why bother with jumping through all the hoops. We let Mexicans own property in the US with none of this crazy hoopla that we would have to go through south of the border.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 11):
Poverty in Mexico is a very complex problem that needs to be solved by educating people.

I disagree. Poverty in Mexico is a simple problem that needs to be solved by eliminating the corruption.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 11):
Derbez doesn't deserve to be the foreign secretary of Mexico... he is quite stupid and was actually told to back up in his desire to take the fence issue to the UN.

I think most of us that Secretary Derbez has hardly covered himself in glory based on his comment about taking the fence issue to the UN. It's interesting to know that this may be an indication of a broader lack of fitness on his part for the office of foreign secretary.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 11):
Ok, this one made me laugh... it is far from being truth. I am a Spanish descendant holding both, Spanish and Mexican citizenship and neither me nor any of my friends and family want the people that you call Indian descended Mexicans to go to the US.

I wonder if your opinion is that of the majority of white Mexicans, though?

Quoting Rojo (Reply 11):
I have lived in Spain where there are tons of immigrants from Africa and Latin America trying to get into the country by sea and air hoping to get a better life and I have also lived in Mexico where people try to cross the US border hoping also for a better life because the Mexican economy does not give them good job opportunities to support their families, therefore, every country has its own rights to seal its borders without any foreigner complaining about it...

I'm quite glad to see that we agree that every country is entitled to control its own borders.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
Perhaps that $1.2B could be spent say on renovating the school in DC, or maybe reducing health care costs for the elderly, or how about we properly fund VA hospitals to take care of the wounded returning from Iraq and Afghanistan . . . now there's a novel thought.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
Or diverted into the DoD budget.

Still, the fence is needed and I would support full allocations for the building of it.

Quoting Scamp (Reply 16):
Even as a proud, card-carrying, commie-pinko liberal I too am a strong opponent to illegal immigration.

There are very significant areas of commonality between many liberals and conservatives, and it appears that this is one of them.

Ironically, people like Phil Angelides, who is California Governor Schwarzenegger's Democrat opponent, often take the side of illegal aliens, and therefore seem to betray the interests of their own citizen constituents. Angelides said recently that he opposed the proposed fence and that, if elected Governor, he would withdraw all California National Guard troops from the border. I find it sad that if the Democrats were to "take back" the Congress, legislation concerning the fence and other immigration measures protecting the American people could be rescinded and, worse, amnesty might be promoted instead.

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
Therefore, you can own a property in Cancun if you want with the comfort of having a fideicomiso through a US subsidiary in Mexico.

Perhaps so, and yet illegal aliens in the United States need not undertake any such third-party arrangements in order to own their own property. I wonder why Mexico has these rather draconian restrictions.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 18):
One side question about the fence, what do you do with the cities such as Nogales which is both on the American and Mexico side, do you divide it up like Berlin?

Sadly, though necessarily, this may be so.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
This is not true. Although the Mexican constitution states in Art. 27 that foreign citizens can't own land located 100 miles from the borders and 50 miles from the coasts (I know most of the tourist cities are located in this area), there are ways to buy the land. The Mexican government allows foreign citizens to establish what we call "fideicomisos", which is an indirect ownership of the land through a Mexican Bank (like Banamex in Mexico which is 100% owned by Citigroup). Therefore, you can own a property in Cancun if you want with the comfort of having a fideicomiso through a US subsidiary in Mexico.

Sadly, the OP doesn't seem to let the facts get in the way of his argument.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
Therefore, you can own a property in Cancun if you want with the comfort of having a fideicomiso through a US subsidiary in Mexico.

Why bother with jumping through all the hoops. We let Mexicans own property in the US with none of this crazy hoopla that we would have to go through south of the border.

Mexico isn't the only country in the world that imposes restrictions on foreigners owning land.

We have many, many good reasons for "beating up" on our Mexican friends. Their law on land sales to foreigners isn't one of them.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
beefstew25
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:58 pm

Nothing will ever be done because both party's are whores to the Hispanic vote. This has got to be non-political, which has a ice cube in hell's chance of happening.
MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
We have many, many good reasons for "beating up" on our Mexican friends. Their law on land sales to foreigners isn't one of them.

I think that Mexico's position here is hypocritical. Mexico complains that the U.S. desires to restrict the "rights" of its citizens, and yet it continues a policy of land ownership whereby U.S. citizens often cannot practically own land or even exercise political dissent while there.

Mexico receives billions of dollars of remittances from its expatriates living in the United States. It would seem that its attempts to bully the United States is based simply on its desire to continue to line its own pockets, all while criticizing American for daring to enforce its own laws.

Is Mexico a friend of the United States? I have yet to see it provide much assistance to America on matters of foreign policy. When was the last time that a Mexican foreign minister spoke in favor of U.S. policy in the Middle East, for example?

To the contrary, I think that Mexico has always harbored resentment against its northern neighbor, all while enjoying the fruits of the violation of American sovereignty. And now, here it is, telling America that it must fence itself off from Mexico or those Mexicans who desperate to leave. The audacious illogic of this position means that it could only be asserted by diplomats, or hacks.

The entire matter would be comedic if it weren't so tragic.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
We have many, many good reasons for "beating up" on our Mexican friends. Their law on land sales to foreigners isn't one of them.

I think that Mexico's position here is hypocritical. Mexico complains that the U.S. desires to restrict the "rights" of its citizens, and yet it continues a policy of land ownership whereby U.S. citizens often cannot practically own land or even exercise political dissent while there.

First of all, US citizens can own land in Mexico. Maybe they have to engage in an elaborate scheme to own land near the coast, but it can be done. And AFAIK, the laws you speak of apply to all foreigners, not just Americans. So where's the problem?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 24):
To the contrary, I think that Mexico has always harbored resentment against its northern neighbor, all while enjoying the fruits of the violation of American sovereignty. And now, here it is, telling America that it must fence itself off from Mexico or those Mexicans who desperate to leave. The audacious illogic of this position means that it could only be asserted by diplomats, or hacks.

Agree.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:20 am

$1.2 billion for a fence  Wow!

I bet the Mexicans could build it for a tenth of the price! In fact it'll probably be Mexican labourers building it anyway! Seriously though, $1.2b could be spent in a lot better ways I think, even in America.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
First of all, US citizens can own land in Mexico. Maybe they have to engage in an elaborate scheme to own land near the coast, but it can be done. And AFAIK, the laws you speak of apply to all foreigners, not just Americans. So where's the problem?

I just think that the Mexican government wants the U.S. to roll out the red carpet for its dispossessed, and yet it often treats Americans like crap. The unfairness of this bothers me. That's all.
What's fair is fair.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):

The Fence is useless. The proprosed Mexican gov't action is useless.

Pretty much makes this thread useless, seems to me.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
Pretty much makes this thread useless, seems to me.

But to O'Reilly, maybe it's grounds to launch a boycott of Mexican goods. He claims at least a bit of credit for the results of threatening a boycott against France.

(I don't remember the details. I don't have to.)
What's fair is fair.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 29):
But to O'Reilly, maybe it's grounds to launch a boycott of Mexican goods. He claims at least a bit of credit for the results of threatening a boycott against France.

And you want me to take that pompous blowhard seriously? Sorry. If he's going to get mad at France for not kissing our ass on Iraq, and do the same because Mexico has a beef with a communist-style wall on their border, then he's got his priorities all wrong. He's nothing but a jingoistic, ugly American.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 30):
And you want me to take that pompous blowhard seriously?

No, since what you want to take seriously is your choice. I'm just saying that it's a possibility. And if he does call for a boycott, well, you read it here first, folks.
What's fair is fair.
 
daedaeg
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 26):
$1.2 billion for a fence

I bet the Mexicans could build it for a tenth of the price! In fact it'll probably be Mexican labourers building it anyway! Seriously though, $1.2b could be spent in a lot better ways I think, even in America.

Well it's not just some dinky fence that typically seperates your house from your neighbor's. It'll include motion sensors, camera's, small UAV detachments, etc. Boeing is the prime contractor.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 32):
Boeing is the prime contractor.

Don't I know it!

 Big grin
What's fair is fair.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Other Americans, including President Bush, contend that illegal aliens do jobs that Americans won't do, or aren't doing, and are a positive benefit to the U.S. economy.

I can't take it anymore - I HAVE to quote this e-mail, passed on by a friend:

A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!! It explains things better than all the balderdash you hear on TV.

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country
protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might
protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and,
once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me
in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds
and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've
done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must
add me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide
other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard
work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that
breaking in part). If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my
friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my
right to be there.

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do,
and I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest,
um, except for well, you know.

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only
a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do
about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being
anti-housebreaker.

Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Falcon84
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
And if he does call for a boycott, well, you read it here first, folks.

No doubt you'll be the first one following his lead.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):

And I'm sure the Mexican government makes an assload of money off of this setup at the foreigners expense.

You are so wrong dude, you have no idea of what you are saying.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
Why bother with jumping through all the hoops. We let Mexicans own property in the US with none of this crazy hoopla that we would have to go through south of the border.



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):

Perhaps so, and yet illegal aliens in the United States need not undertake any such third-party arrangements in order to own their own property. I wonder why Mexico has these rather draconian restrictions.

Do TEXAS ring a bell to both of you? The Mexican goverment sold land in Texas to Americans in order to populate its northern border and what happened? The American inmigrants living in Texas, Mexico; decided to become independent. Then a couple of years later the USA invaded Mexico and stole more than half of its territory. That restriction on land ownership by foreigners is clearly based on historical facts.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 20):
I disagree. Poverty in Mexico is a simple problem that needs to be solved by eliminating the corruption.

As it were that easy.... You clearly haven't experienced the poverty in Latin America. What Rojo said is completely right. We have many poor people in Latin America because each female starts breeding at age 15 and by the time they are 25, they already have 9 children from 7 different fathers. How can a middle-school dropout support 9 children? The children will grow poor and without education. The few children that can get education and then get a job will become very prone to corruption in order to feed his/her family of 10. Rojo just hit the nail, in the other hand, you only had a vague view of the poverty problem.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):

I wonder if your opinion is that of the majority of white Mexicans, though?

And what makes you think that what MCIGuy said is what the majority thinks? I rather trust someone who ACTUALLY is part of that population, not someone living in the US and talking nonsense.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting Rojo (Reply 17):
This is not true. Although the Mexican constitution states in Art. 27 that foreign citizens can't own land located 100 miles from the borders and 50 miles from the coasts (I know most of the tourist cities are located in this area),

OK, let's examine this for a moment. Non-Mexicans can't own land 100 miles from a border or 50 miles from an ocean. Hmmm, could this be because they don't want folks form other countries gathering and essentially setting up enclaves along their border and annexing part of their country? Could it be that in making these laws, they're trying to protect the sovereignty of Mexico? Hmmm, interesting indeed.
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halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 36):

As it were that easy.... You clearly haven't experienced the poverty in Latin America. What Rojo said is completely right. We have many poor people in Latin America because each female starts breeding at age 15 and by the time they are 25, they already have 9 children from 7 different fathers. How can a middle-school dropout support 9 children? The children will grow poor and without education. The few children that can get education and then get a job will become very prone to corruption in order to feed his/her family of 10.

So we're supposed to take on the burden for providing homes and jobs and medical care and education for all these people that Mexico can't provide for? How did it become our job?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:11 am

Derbez is insane to propose UN action at the wall topic. The US can do whatever it pleases inside its territory, he has absolutely no opinion on the wall discussion. I'm a supporter of President Fox but this guy is just crazy.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):

So we're supposed to take on the burden for providing homes and jobs and medical care and education for all these people that Mexico can't provide for? How did it become our job?

And who in this thread has ever said something remotely close to what you are saying?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

[Edited 2006-10-11 04:15:04]
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 37):
OK, let's examine this for a moment. Non-Mexicans can't own land 100 miles from a border or 50 miles from an ocean. Hmmm, could this be because they don't want folks form other countries gathering and essentially setting up enclaves along their border and annexing part of their country? Could it be that in making these laws, they're trying to protect the sovereignty of Mexico? Hmmm, interesting indeed.

Get a history book and educate yourself.

"Do TEXAS ring a bell to both of you? The Mexican goverment sold land in Texas to Americans in order to populate its northern border and what happened? The American inmigrants living in Texas, Mexico; decided to become independent. Then a couple of years later the USA invaded Mexico and stole more than half of its territory. That restriction on land ownership by foreigners is clearly based on historical facts."

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):

So we're supposed to take on the burden for providing homes and jobs and medical care and education for all these people that Mexico can't provide for? How did it become our job?
And who in this thread has ever said something remotely close to what you are saying?

It's just a logical follow up to your post on poverty in Mexico. Yes, it exists, and it is lamentable. But it isn't an excuse to illegally cross the border. And that is exactly what Rojo was suggesting in post 11 when he said "I have also lived in Mexico where people try to cross the US border hoping also for a better life because the Mexican economy does not give them good job opportunities to support their families"
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rojo
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
It's just a logical follow up to your post on poverty in Mexico. Yes, it exists, and it is lamentable. But it isn't an excuse to illegally cross the border. And that is exactly what Rojo was suggesting in post 11 when he said "I have also lived in Mexico where people try to cross the US border hoping also for a better life because the Mexican economy does not give them good job opportunities to support their families"

Please, next time you want to quote something, quote the whole paragraph and do not add words I did not use (like "suggesting")... I never suggested that it is the US job to provide everything to illegal immigrants. I just said what is happening in two of the countries where I have lived.

It is amazing how some people in A.net who live in the US want to release their anger on illegal immigration by contributing to this kind of topics. I don't like illegal immigration, but it is a problem of this Century and I have to live with it. Even-though I live in Mexico right now, most of my family lives in Spain (by the way, we never immigrated to Spain, since my family is Spanish and has been for Centuries, therefore, I have the right to live and work in Spain. On the other side, my father thanks Mexico a lot for giving him the opportunity to come here legally and work many years) and they get to live with immigrants who collect all the trash every morning, since most Spanianrds don't want to do that kind of job. It happens the same in the US, where most of the people working in the kitchens of restaurants are immigrants (legal and illegal), since most US citizens don't want to do those jobs...

[Edited 2006-10-11 05:38:12]
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 40):
"Do TEXAS ring a bell to both of you? The Mexican goverment sold land in Texas to Americans in order to populate its northern border and what happened? The American inmigrants living in Texas, Mexico; decided to become independent. Then a couple of years later the USA invaded Mexico and stole more than half of its territory. That restriction on land ownership by foreigners is clearly based on historical facts."

Please, "historical" is the key word here.
Has any land been "stolen" in our lifetimes? Has the border shifted in our lifetimes? I feel the same about that as I do slave reparations and special treatment for natives. NO ONE ALIVE TODAY WAS A SLAVE IN THE US.
Also, with as many illegal Mexicans and Mexican communities as are in our country (in MANY places far north of Tejas), I guess it stands to reason the no one from Mexico should be allowed to own land anywhere in the US. Especially given recent displays of patriotism to their original country instead of their new one. That kind of behavior smacks of invasion. Not a great way to garner support for your cause. Kind of like Chavez shooting himself in the foot in front of the UN.  

PS> By your logic, I guess Spain should apologize for the Conquistadors and give all of the land in Mexico, as well as most of that in South America, back to the native people.

[Edited 2006-10-11 05:53:35]
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luisde8cd
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
It's just a logical follow up to your post on poverty in Mexico.

Is a complete illogical follow up.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
Yes, it exists, and it is lamentable. But it isn't an excuse to illegally cross the border

And I ask again, where did I EVER mention something remotely closed to that? Illegal immigration is illegal, period. I've never tried to excuse them. I can't find the logic behind your conclusion regarding my post.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
And that is exactly what Rojo was suggesting in post 11

Read my post again... it's an easy exercise of reading comprehension. I support Rojo's solution to poverty which is EDUCATION, SEXUAL EDUCATION. How can I excuse illegal inmigrants by posting what I think is the answer to the poverty problem?

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 43):
By your logic, I guess Spain should apologize for the Conquistadors and give all of the land in Mexico, as well as most of that in South America, back to the native people.

Yes, exactly! That's what I meant!  sarcastic . I guess it's too hard for you to analise history in order to understand the present. The current Mexican constitution was written in 1917. By that time, the US invasion of Mexico was very fresh in Mexican minds. It makes completely sense that they decided to write an article restricting foreign ownership of land like they did.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 43):
Kind of like Chavez shooting himself in the foot in front of the UN.

And what does Chavez have to do with the US-Mexico border fence? If you are trying to attack my points of view by attacking the president of my country (which is what people without logical debating arguments do), let me tell you that you better read my signature before making those absurd comments.
"Viasa we miss you!. Good times will return after Chavez is gone!"

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 44):
Yes, exactly! That's what I meant!

Really, you think that regardless of how the modern world has shaken out, "squatters rights" dating back to ancient times should come first? You really think Spain should apologize and Spanish decended folks should go back to Spain?

I gotta give you the "Crazy Huey" statements. Out of context and indeed, I didn't see your sig.  Wink
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luisde8cd
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 45):
Really, you think that regardless of how the modern world has shaken out, "squatters rights" dating back to ancient times should come first? You really think Spain should apologize and Spanish decended folks should go back to Spain?

You just missed the sarcastic face after my comment.... forget it. Good night.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Superfly
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:05 pm

Mr. Bush, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!
Bring back the Concorde
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 44):
And I ask again, where did I EVER mention something remotely closed to that? Illegal immigration is illegal, period. I've never tried to excuse them. I can't find the logic behind your conclusion regarding my post.

Well, if illegal immigration is illegal, then there is no excuse for it. None.

And further, I don't buy the theory that because, in history, somebody done somebody else wrong, thus and therefore and for that reason the law has to put obstacles in the way of American ownership of property. That doesn't make sense. We're living in the here and now, and not days of yore.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Mexico Mulling UN Action Against U.S. Fence

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting Rojo (Reply 42):
Please, next time you want to quote something, quote the whole paragraph and do not add words I did not use (like "suggesting")... I never suggested that it is the US job to provide everything to illegal immigrants. I just said what is happening in two of the countries where I have lived.

You are correct - you never suggested that, and I apologize for creating that impression.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography

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