L410Turbolet
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Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:38 pm

Came across this interesting piece of news:

"French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6033713.stm

The Turkish government fiercely denies a genocide, saying that hundreds of thousands of Turks and Armenians died in a civil war.

Under Turkish law, it is illegal to accuse the state of genocide. Scores of Turkish writers and intellectuals who have debated the massacres publicly have faced prosecution under article 301 of the penal code, outlawing insults to "Turkishness".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2006/10/10/wfrance10.xml

OK, we all know that in Turkey it is illegal to discuss Armenian genocide. French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.

Meanwhile the BS, continues....

In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2006/10/10/wfrance10.xml
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
"French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians."


Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
In retaliation, the Turkish parliament's justice committee will on Wednesday discuss a draft plan to imprison people who deny that France committed genocide during its colonial rule over Algeria.

It's sure "nice" to know that valuable taxpayer money is going toward the legislative equivalent of an argument over whose d*ck is larger.

Honestly, is this parliamentary debate, or is it close to naptime at preschool? Sometimes, it's very hard to tell the difference.

[Edited 2006-10-10 12:46:37]
What's fair is fair.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:10 pm

It´s forbidden to speak kurdish in Turkey....so I´ve heard! True?

Micke//  Confused
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TedTAce
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:18 pm

Thank Gawd for the USA  Smile Crappy political ads and all.
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MDorBust
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:22 pm

Kinda puts everything in perspective for the people who complain about freedom of speech over here doesn't it?  spin 
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Pyrex
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
French MPs probably though that the best they could do is to drop down to their level adopt equally stupid measure which says that it is criminal act to deny that Armenian genocide indeed happened.

Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?
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Klaus
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2):
It´s forbidden to speak kurdish in Turkey....so I´ve heard! True?

It was until relatively recently. The kurdish culture was completely suppressed for a long time, but that only emboldened the more radical kurds.

With the kurds in Iraq being on the verge of official secession, Turkey has intense fears of something similar happening to them as well (which might lead to a post-turkish/iraqi/iranian Kurdistan and a corresponding loss of territory for all three states).

But since repression didn't work (and its total incompatibility with Turkey's EU aspirations), the anti-kurdish policies have been retracted to a certain degree in recent years.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?

Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

The turkish denial of the anti-armenian massacres is understandable to a point, but it would be the first infected wound that got better by denying its existence...!  mischievous 
 
Pyrex
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Klaus
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.

I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
I can still sort of see the point as long as one's own country had suffered under the genocide, which covers most of Europe in case of the Holocaust; But I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...

If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.

No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.
What's fair is fair.
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:13 am

Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

I think that I'm guilty of doing that in Reply 9, in retrospect.

In thinking about this matter, I find that the actions of the Turkish Parliament in this narrow respect really don't necessarily reflect on the suitability of Turkey to join the EU. Thus, I now withdraw the following comment:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
No wonder folks are wondering about whether Turkey should be in the EU.

(Withdrawn.)
What's fair is fair.
 
Klaus
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
If politicians can't agree about history, how in blazes can they agree about a common future? The future is, after all, nothing more than history with a bit of patience.

Only for the audience - for its protagonists it's quite a bit more demanding...!

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU.

The existing evidence - including official formerly secret documents from the german imperial foreign office and many eyewitness reports - is a bit too diverse and a bit too substantial to just keep denying that it ever happened.

The problem is not so much the long bygone massacres themselves, the problem is the inability to openly deal with it on the part of a presumably modern democratic nation.
 
dl021
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:25 am

THe French are making noise because they don't want the Turks in the EU.

The Turks are grumbling because they'd rather forget the massacres of Christian Armenians.

The Kurds simply want to run the territory they live in without Turkish influence and the Turks can't allow it because of water.

So....there we are. Geo/EconPolitik rules.
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Asturias
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

Bah, this is just a drop in the water compared to the vast ocean of reasons to keep Turkey forever out of the EU.

cheers

Asturias
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TNNH
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Isn't it a crime to deny the holocaust in Germany?

Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

TNNH
 
airxliban
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Indeed. Although I have my doubts if it makes sense to ban the denial of other countries' genocides...

I am not sure but I believe denying the holocaust is a crime in some other countries as well... can't tell you which ones, though.

Iran, possibly?

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 10):
Yet another way of bashing Turkey and making it more difficult for us to enter the EU. Frankly, I am not sure if the EU deserves our membership anyway!!!

Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

TNNH

Yeah, that darned pesky constimatution thangie.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
dl021
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

yeah...well there is still the concept of freedom of speech here, no matter what the thought police would like.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Klaus
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 15):
Ironic that the USA, the country that has proteced and advanced world Jewry far more than any other nation does not have similar legislation.

They haven't had a genocide based in large part on the extreme abuse of the freedom of speech... Both positions are understandable, even though I'm deeply suspicious of hateful propaganda and its "harmlessness"...

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Iran, possibly?

Yeah, and Ahmadinejad is secretly a jew...!  crazy 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
yeah...well there is still the concept of freedom of speech here, no matter what the thought police would like.

You can think and even say whatever you want in Germany - you just can't spread public propaganda of every imaginable kind.
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?

Obviously.... Lots of Armenians as well as Turks were killed during small battles while the Armenians were being relocated as they kept betraying us and causing zillions of problems mainly in the Eastern/South Eastern regions of Turkey.

At the time of the so called "genocide", many countries were declaring their independence from the Ottoman Empire (esp. in the Balkans). Armenians, hoping they would also have independence, played dirty tricks on Turks and changed sides during wars especially against the Russians hoping they would help them. So they provoked each other and started causing problems and killing Turks. When the government decided, the problems would get out of control, they decided to relocate the Armenians. Many died fighting along the way (both sides). There were no mass murders or such by the government at the time.

Of course, there are many different versions of the stories but this is briefly what I learnt from the research I made.

What makes me angry, in particular, is France's behaviour in this case. What is it to THEM if two countries are having problems with each other. You might try to help or support one side but trying to pass a vote in the parliament is crossing the line.

But as usual, if it is X vs. Turkey or Y vs. Turkey, its always X and Y who is right and Turkey who is wrong.

Anyway, I am still celebrating our victory against Moldova (football). We just beat them 5-0  Smile Allright, not a very important game but its always nice to see such results  Big grin
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Klaus
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):
There were no mass murders or such by the government at the time.

Yeah, well, that is where the evidence says something entirely different.

Unfortunately for the deniers, the german Kaiserreich at that time had very intimate knowledge about the systematic anti-armenian policies, including massacres and forcible islamization.

Germany even collaborated with the perpetrators in order to stabilize their turkish allies.

And many official records of the german government of the era still exist. They corroborate the eyewitness accounts to a disturbing degree, including their own complicity and inaction in the face of the ongoing atrocities.

Those documents had not been intended for publication back then and they did not serve any secondary purpose other than internal information so there is hardly any reason to believe that the german officials had simply made it all up.

Turkey has a lot more to lose by trying to keep a lid on this (while everybody knows it anyway) rather than demonstrating a mature approach to the darker corners of their history.

[Edited 2006-10-11 23:22:47]
 
ozglobal
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
THe French are making noise because they don't want the Turks in the EU.

Wrong.....! Chirac has controversally supported their entry. Check your facts.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
I'm not too sure about the size of the armenian minority in France...

It's substantial (largestest diaspora?). Also, there's been a series of voices denying the Armenian genocide of late, including in France. Many of the ethnic Armenians in France lost relatives in the event.

Do you condemn Germany's law re: holocaust? Be consistent at least.

Try denying the holocaut in the US and see how far you get before you're deported or run out of town. What's the difference? Not the Jews this time?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
airxliban
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):

People who have done more research than you have come to the exact opposite conclusion and this is widely accepted amongst historians. Why continue to deny it? It's not as though the Young Turks who were in political control of the Ottoman Empire during those years have anything to do with the modern Turkey.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:49 am

France has the largest Armenian expat community. The genocide happened. Anyone with any interest and an ounce of intellectual integrity knows it. Whilst a law with a jail term is over the top, it is not more outrageous than the tacit appeasement of Turkey currently shown by the indifferent.

You may not be aware a US senator tried to pass a motion recognizing the genocide several years ago, but was blocked by, of all people, Israel aligned interests who felt it would detract from the unique status of the holocaust. For heaven's sake, the mass graves are there, you can see the tens of thousands of skelotons. Time to call a spade a spade and so we can move on.

(Btw, Japan needs to acknowledge all its war crimes if it is ever to move forward in integrity too. Didn't do Germany any harm. On the contrary, they are stronger for it).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
With the kurds in Iraq being on the verge of official secession, Turkey has intense fears of something similar happening to them as well (which might lead to a post-turkish/iraqi/iranian Kurdistan and a corresponding loss of territory for all three states).

I've never understood why Turkey would be against this... especially now. Turkey has tried to repress Kurdish culture for so long... so why not just let the Kurds secede, resulting in a more homogenous Turkish state? The additional benefit for Turkey's EU aspirations is that the EU would probably be less hesitant about its far southeastern border being with an independent Kurdistan than with Iraq/Iran...no?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
wing
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):
Anyway, I am still celebrating our victory against Moldova (football). We just beat them 5-0 Allright, not a very important game but its always nice to see such results

Its not a victory its a massacre! And don't be surprised to see if French parliement will vote this to be as Turkish genocide against Moldova  Smile

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 23):
It's not as though the Young Turks who were in political control of the Ottoman Empire during those years have anything to do with the modern Turkey

If it has nothing to do with modern Turkey why are you still asking from the people of the people of todays Turkey to accept and pay for something which none of us ever existed?

Its not so easy to accept such an act which you havent done at first place.Let say Turkey did accepted it.Who will quarantee that Armenia will start requesting soil from Turkey?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 24):
Btw, Japan needs to acknowledge all its war crimes if it is ever to move forward in integrity too. Didn't do Germany any harm. On the contrary, they are stronger for it).

You people like telling others what to do.When will you accept your crimes against people of Algeria?French atrocities in Algeria is no less than the German's done to Jews.Being a strong EU country doesn't wipe the blood from France's hands too.



Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 22):
Wrong.....! Chirac has controversally supported their entry. Check your facts.

According to the polls France is one of the major opponents of the Turkeys membership to EU.Which by the way that not a big deal since most of the countries are against the membership of Turkey.

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?

What will you do if he does,tell him to the France police?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kurds is not an issue on this subject I would like to remind you that this is a thread about how France parliement has voted against the freedom of speech against the historians to defend their case.It is not even about if a genoside is ever happened or not.
And what does it matter from now on since its easier to vote about the historical facts, rather than inspecting the Ottoman archives(which is open for inspection unlike the Armenian archives)

Quoting L410Turbolet (Thread starter):
OK, we all know that in Turkey it is illegal to discuss Armenian genocide.

Infact you all know wrong.Its not illegal to "Dýscuss Armenian genocide".Its really horribly interesting in the age of internet everything can be altered until reaches you.

Ofcourse not many opponents to discuss in a country which has 98% Muslim population but still we have Armenian minorities in this country which has all the rights that the Muslim population does and they are free to express their feelings for theri lost loved ones in 1915.

What you are referring is the Hýrant DÝnk case who is a journalist and writer of Armenian descent.He has been sued becasue of insulting Turkishness.,not because of his articles from the newspaper AGOS, published in Turkish and Armenian and he works as the chief writer of it.

The words caused him to be sued were:"...the poisonous blood of bleeding Turks can be found from Armenia and be replaced by the precious blood of the Armenians" He referred to the words of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's adress to Turkish youth;"Turkish youth,the power to achieve this success can be found in your pricious blood"

He wanted to be famous,he changed Atatürks words,knowing that he will recieve lots of attention and now he enjoys it.Simple is that.He has been writing about Armenian genocide at his AGOS newspaper without any interruption since 1996(www.agos.com)

Klaus;

Don't try to put Armenian-Turkish problem same level with the Nazi-Jews holacaust.What Nazi's did was deliberately trying to wipe out entire race of Jews from the face of the earth.
Ottomans were in fight with Russia and its supporting Armenia at that time and most of the people died were on the road to Syria where the Ottoman government wanted to prevent them to help Armenian rebels.Nazi's didn't lost any soldiers against the Jews while the killed Turkish villagers are no less than the Armenian losses.

I would like to ask all of you to think if the Ottomans wanted to do the same thing as the Nazi's why they left other Armenians living all around their soil alive?The only Armenian losses were from the area were the war between Ottomans and Russians(and their Armenian supporters) located.
Here is a link from the Armenian Agos newspaper places where the Armenians living in Anatolia. (and surprisingly didn't get affected from the Ottomans, who were looking for the Armenians to kill  Wink )

http://www.agos.com.tr/tr/birzamanlar.htm
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L410Turbolet
Topic Author
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
If it has nothing to do with modern Turkey why are you still asking from the people of the people of todays Turkey to accept and pay for something which none of us ever existed?

Then why does Turkish government always gets so hysterical when this topic comes into discussion.

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
insulting Turkishness

What is "Turkishness"?  Confused Some sacred cows, unchallengeable myths? What do you have to do to insult it? E.g. describe historical situation such as Ataturk escaping from somewhere dressed as a woman?
Open discussion about country's own history is essential for democracy IMHO
 
7474ever
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
You can think and even say whatever you want in Germany - you just can't spread public propaganda of every imaginable kind.

 checkmark 

Totally agreed.
 
7474ever
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20):
Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 16):
Do you deny the Armenian genocide as well?

Obviously.... Lots of Armenians as well as Turks were killed during small battles while the Armenians were being relocated as they kept betraying us and causing zillions of problems mainly in the Eastern/South Eastern regions of Turkey.

Well, 1.500.000 million is surely "a lot"...
 
wing
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):
Then why does Turkish government always gets so hysterical when this topic comes into discussion.

It pretty much explains itself,ofcourse nobody likes to be accused for something they never did.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):
What is "Turkishness"? Some sacred cows, unchallengeable myths? What do you have to do to insult it?

Nobody likes to be insulted in own country,I am sure you too wouldnt want if I come to Chech Rep. and say" we will replace the poisonous blood of the ugly Chechs with woman dresses, with our precious blood" (no offence just an example to compare)
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
wing
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 29):
Well, 1.500.000 million is surely "a lot"...

Interestingly this number increases in every election term in France.I wonder if you have any clue that total number of Armenians living at that time  Wink
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 29):
Well, 1.500.000 million is surely "a lot"...

Aa Armenian friend of mine said the toll was "3.000.000"

Turkey's population in 1915 was roughly 10.000.000. You suggest that more than 1/6 of the population were killed? If you take into account the number of those who weren't killed, then the Armenian population in Turkey would equal to around 1/4 perhaps? Get a life!!!
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
7474ever
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 32):

Turkey's population in 1915 was roughly 10.000.000. You suggest that more than 1/6 of the population were killed? If you take into account the number of those who weren't killed, then the Armenian population in Turkey would equal to around 1/4 perhaps? Get a life!!!

I'm not an expert on this issue, but I understand this number is pretty much correct. On the other hand, where would you know from ? You obviously don't study that in school, do you ?
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 33):
I'm not an expert on this issue, but I understand this number is pretty much correct. On the other hand, where would you know from ? You obviously don't study that in school, do you ?

There is a BIG chance that I know the issue better than you do!! Yes, we study population issues at school...

Plus, its common sense. Show me one country that has 1/4 of its population made up of a single minority nation.
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
7474ever
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Plus, its common sense. Show me one country that has 1/4 of its population made up of a single minority nation

You have to explain this one...
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 35):
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Plus, its common sense. Show me one country that has 1/4 of its population made up of a single minority nation

You have to explain this one...

Lets say Israel has a population of 10.000.000 and 2.500.000 of this is ONLY Swiss. This is what I mean by a "single nation".
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 36):
Quoting 7474ever (Reply 35):
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Plus, its common sense. Show me one country that has 1/4 of its population made up of a single minority nation

Ah, I see... Israel has a popaltion of 7 million, a million out of it is arab. How about that ?
 
ozglobal
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 22):
Wrong.....! Chirac has controversally supported their entry. Check your facts.

According to the polls France is one of the major opponents of the Turkeys membership to EU.

French people are opposed; Chirac, as I said, controversially, has supported it.

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
You people like telling others what to do.When will you accept your crimes against people of Algeria?French atrocities in Algeria is no less than the German's done to Jews.Being a strong EU country doesn't wipe the blood from France's hands too.

Probably true, but I'm not speaking as a Frenchman and the topic is the Armenian genocide.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
airxliban
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RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
If it has nothing to do with modern Turkey why are you still asking from the people of the people of todays Turkey to accept and pay for something which none of us ever existed?

Because the Ottoman Empire is the predecessor of modern day Turkey and it is part of your history. And you should recognise it because it is true. Attempts to deny it are feeble in the face of increasing world support for its factuality, including historians in your own country! Swallow the pride, admit the truth and move on as you have been doing in every other area.

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
Its not so easy to accept such an act which you havent done at first place.Let say Turkey did accepted it.Who will quarantee that Armenia will start requesting soil from Turkey?

What does one have to do with the other?

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
What will you do if he does,tell him to the France police?

Don't patronise me. I'll accept that that is his opinion and will assume that he has done extensive research to support what he thinks in the face of overwhelming international evidence of the opposite.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Yes, we study population issues at school...

So share us what we don't know. What do you study about that ?
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:07 am

The conclusion that I have come to is that history is in the eye of the beholder. That and "denial" isn't just a river in Egypt.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
TurkishWings
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:57 pm

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 37):
Ah, I see... Israel has a popaltion of 7 million, a million out of it is arab. How about that ?

I do not wanna go there. It's a whole discussion in itself.
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
L410Turbolet
Topic Author
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 30):
Nobody likes to be insulted in own country

Who if not Turks themselves should be morally entitled to be critical and to challenge their own country's history? Why is it automatically "insult"?

Quoting Wing (Reply 30):
I am sure you too wouldnt want if I come to Chech Rep. and say" we will replace the poisonous blood of the ugly Chechs with woman dresses, with our precious blood" (no offence just an example to compare)

Why not? Why should I feel offended by this? It's actually funny... not much but just a little.
You are also more than welcome to discuss our own REAL "skeletons in the closet" e.g.
- widespread cowardice and collaboration with Nazis during the WW2,
- followed by primitive vendetta and injustices against Sudetengermans during the days of wild expulsion immediately after the end of the war (their treason and active contribution to destruction of the country in 1938 is a separate issue).
- voting communists into power in 1948
- and again cowardice and collaboration of population with the worst comunist crimes in 1950s
- financial and material support by the communist regime to almost every thinkable terrorist group in 1970s, 1980s (Carlos the Jackal, PLO, Khaddafi, etc.)
- myth about military genius of the Hussites (15th century); the truth is that they managed to employ some uncoventinal elements of warfare into their tactics, but they were also ruthless, cruel, violent rabble which looted, raped and plundered
- Dubcek and Benes, two guys who totally failed as statesmen in the most crucial moments of the 20th century for my country (1938, 1948, 1968)
etc., etc. etc. plenty others left

I just don't see how discussing the not-so-spectacular moments in my own country's history should be insulting to my "Czechisness" (whatever that should be) or anyone else, learning the truth (searching for it) is important catharsis and vital for the society to (hopefully) take a lesson from its own failures in the past.
 
TurkishWings
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:57 pm

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 39):
What does one have to do with the other?

What does France have to do with a problem between Armenia and Turkey? Oh sorry. I forgot... They need the votes.. Sorry, my bad...


Listen, Turkey is disliked so much by a lot of people that nothing would suprise me anymore!!
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 42):
Quoting 7474ever (Reply 37):
Ah, I see... Israel has a popaltion of 7 million, a million out of it is arab. How about that ?

I do not wanna go there. It's a whole discussion in itself.

You don't get it. I'm explaining, that unlike you said, a single minority can make up a single minority, nothing more.

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 40):
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Yes, we study population issues at school...

So share us what we don't know. What do you study about that ?

Im still waiting for this one.
 
TurkishWings
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:57 pm

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 39):
Because the Ottoman Empire is the predecessor of modern day Turkey and it is part of your history.

I do agree with you that its a part of our history yet the "Republic of Turkey" was founded on October 29, 1923. This is today's Turkey. Not 1915.
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
airxliban
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 39):
Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
Its not so easy to accept such an act which you havent done at first place.Let say Turkey did accepted it.Who will quarantee that Armenia will start requesting soil from Turkey?

What does one have to do with the other?



Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 44):
Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 39):
What does one have to do with the other?

What does France have to do with a problem between Armenia and Turkey? Oh sorry. I forgot... They need the votes.. Sorry, my bad...

Listen, Turkey is disliked so much by a lot of people that nothing would suprise me anymore!!

Stop playing the fool and read what I wrote. I asked you what guaranteeing that Armenian doesn't ask for land from Turkey has to do with accepting the genocide?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
TurkishWings
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:57 pm

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 45):
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 42):
Quoting 7474ever (Reply 37):
Ah, I see... Israel has a popaltion of 7 million, a million out of it is arab. How about that ?

I do not wanna go there. It's a whole discussion in itself.

You don't get it. I'm explaining, that unlike you said, a single minority can make up a single minority, nothing more.

No, I do understand very well what you mean. The case of Israel and Arabs is quite an exception as the country was put there fairly recently. Remember, Jews unfortunately didn't have a country until recently.

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 45):
Quoting 7474ever (Reply 40):
Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Yes, we study population issues at school...

So share us what we don't know. What do you study about that ?

Im still waiting for this one.

We study the population statistics of Turkey. What is it that you want to hear?
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
L410Turbolet
Topic Author
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Turkey, France And Denial Of Denial

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 34):
Show me one country that has 1/4 of its population made up of a single minority nation.

Post-WW1 Czechoslovakia...

"In 1921, the population of Czechoslovakia comprised 6.6 million Czechs, 3.2 million Germans*, 2 million Slovaks*, 0.7 million Hungarians, 0.5 Ruthenians (Ukrainians), 300,000 Jews, 100,000 Poles, etc. The Germans thus represented one third of the population of the Bohemian lands, and about 23,4 percent of the population of the republic (13,6 million)." (wikipedia)

* please note that there were far more Germans than Slovaks living in the country yet the name was Czechoslovakia

Not being able to settle the ethnic tensions in particular in case of Germans came back like a boomerang 20 years later (1938), destroyed the country and virtually exploded directly in our faces.

[Edited 2006-10-16 22:23:07]

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