AerospaceFan
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Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:15 pm

In America, most people believe in assimilation. That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation. If you fail to comply, you will have significantly failed your duties to this country as a new American citizen, and the fault in this lies in you alone. While cultural distinctiveness may be optionally preserved where possible, if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain, the process of Americanization necessarily replaces any cultural values you once may have had.

In Europe, multiculturalism has been more the norm. According to a recent news story, it was thought that as long as one obeyed the law, it was acceptable, and even beneficial, to maintain one's own cultural identity, separate and apart from the mainstream.

Now, however, many Europeans are questioning whether multiculturalism is the right approach after all.

For a story in today's New York Times on both the newfound success of right-wing political parties and a rising tide of worry about the consequences of multiculturalism, please see:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/wo...?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:26:10]
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
In Europe, multiculturalism has been more the norm.

You're doing it yet again.  Yeah sure

"Europe" doesn't have a norm in these approaches. It varies from country to country. The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation. Holland is different again, as is Germany. Britain absolutely is questioning the multi-cultural approach, but Britain ain't Europe.

When are you going to grasp that Europe is comprised of lots of different countries that have entirely different policies and cultures? Sweden and Spain are as alike as Canada and Venezuela.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
linco22
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
If you fail to comply

I think that needs clarification. Well for me anyway.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:26 pm

Not a fan of leftists I see. Hmm.

From the UK perspective

Anyway, in the UK, there is a growing problem. Immigration is welcome as a token gesture but up to a point. Polish (migrants) people are looked down upon as they are willing to accept low paid jobs is one example.

I think that there is too much ghetto-isation in parts of the country and this is a failure of the "new" people to integrate, but also of the government.

My parents were refugees in the Vietnam War and came to England. Our (my dad's part) of the family got separated into Hertfordshire and London on the pure basis that the government welcomed the Vietnamese but felt they shouldn't be living too close as a family.

Shocking?

I am afraid that I have to agree with the less-than-pleasant, to put it mildly, CONservative party. The Human Rights Laws and associated seem (I am not well researched in this) to be a hindrance to getting rid of the extremists. Abu Hamza, (the cleric with the hook for a hand), was only gotten rid of because he travelled outside the UK of his own accord and was rightly not let back in. In my view he should have been chucked out in disgrace.

I am all for political correctness, however, as with everything, there is an unspoken line to be crossed and where that is causes inefficient and slow-moving debate.

The failure of multiculturalism lies on both the newcomer and the government it seems.

Irrationality also plays a part, in the sense of the idiginous fearing or sensing somethin bad about the newcomers. The media doesn't help but neither does the image of a Muslim, strong in his belief, in a white dress and long beard interrupting the Home Secretary when he's addressing a Muslim group of people about the realities of multi-culturalism and extremist links with terror..

We'd all be better off as Borg it seems.

Apologies for the obvious lack of structure in this post. I am supposed to be revising.




Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
but Britain ain't Europe.

Well, the average Britain would like to think he isn't in Europe Big grin

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:27:45]
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation.

Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred in the last year, then?

Quoting Linco22 (Reply 2):
I think that needs clarification. Well for me anyway.

I'll give you an example.

If, during elections or other public proceedings, you insist that others speak your language, instead of speaking the English language, for example, you will have failed to comply with the expectation that Americans speak, understand, and use only English in matters of public import. Out of an interest in public participation, some accommodation might be made for those citizens who, while otherwise capable of understanding the issues at hand, are too old to learn the English language, but such accommodation would be a limited privilege, not a right, and it would not be proper if it were made the subject of any demand by the new citizen.

[Edited 2006-10-11 10:36:56]
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linco22
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:38 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred last year, then?

That doesn't mean all the nations are the same.

Thank you for your example.

In terms of a language problem we have that here in the North of Ireland. Well it isn't so much a problem.
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
The approach in Britain, which has always very much been a multi-cultural one, is entirely different to that in France, which is more one of assimilation.

Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred last year, then?

There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

Look, that very post shows that you haven't the faintest idea about Europe. It's not like comparing Nebraska and Montana, these are different countries with completely, totally, irreducibly different cultures and policies. You CANNOT say "Europe" the way you do, any more than you can say "America", "Asia" or "Africa". You might as well lump Mexico and the US together and say they're the same. Culturally, Britain has far more in common with the US that it does France. Until and unless you grasp this, you will not have the faintest idea what any of this is about. It is a pre-requisite for understanding, and if you can't do it, then any conversation is completely pointless.
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scbriml
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation.

That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown. sarcastic 
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

It depends on why ghettoes form. Do they form for political or economic reasons?

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
Look, that very post shows that you haven't the faintest idea about Europe.

Would you please read the article? I'm deriving my terminology from what the article says.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown.  sarcastic 

Actually, many Hispanics say that Spanish is less and less popular with each succeeding generation.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
Would you please read the article?

Would do if it didn't require membership to do so. P'raps I should have mentioned that earlier?  Wink
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777236ER
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
It depends on why ghettoes form. Do they form for political or economic reasons?

Do you know why French ghettos form? Or are you just going to go for the simplistic view that 'Europe embraces multiculturalism, therefore any race problems are as a direct result of that'?

The fact is that the French policy is for assimilation, not multiculturalism. In fact, it tends more towards assimilation than America. Britain on the other hand is the polar opposite and wholehearted embraced multiculturalism from the early 60s onwards.
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Toulouse
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred in the last year, then?



Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

Hi AerospaceFan. I do tend to agree with many of the posters that you do not seem to have a solid grasp of European culture, and I suppose that's why you're asking!

The whole thing with the gettoes in large French cities (in general) is getting a bit old now. These types of ghettoes exist in many places around the world, and are clearly not a good idea, as it usually consists in literally having hundreds if not thousands of families, generally with low or no income and usually immigrants (but not always) in a single building, surrounded by other such buildings. It's a bad idea. France openned it's arms to immigrants some 40 years ago, and started building these "ghettoes", which they probably thought was a great idea. Big new appartment blocks, services, green areas for all these immigrants, probably much better than what they had at home, and which to an extent must be true or they wouldn't have come and stayed. Slowly people, both the residents, engineers, urban designers and politicians started to realise "whoops, this wa not such a great idea". In my four years so far living in France, I frequently hear this and hear of the attempts by French authorities to improve these ghettoes (often referred to as "cités") and preferibly knock them down and rebuild something much better. This will all take time, and I think a vast part of the problems in last years riots in France were more due to young "yobbos" with nothing better to do than cause trouble in reaction to the rather harsh stanced taken by M. Sarkozy.

I would also say that France aims for a high level of assimilation. I know many immigrants here in France (referring to immigrants who left poor countries in search of a better life) and many of them have achieved that, they have jobs, fixed salaries, a home, a car, a family and usually tell me how happy they are living in France. All you have to do is walk around any French city and you will see the huge number of immigrants, and to be honest, they have "mainly" just become part of the landscape and seem to quite well accepted, certainly as accepted as in the US. And let's face it, there are also plenty of problems towards immigrants in the US.

Personnally I prefer a multicultural approach, while the immgrants abide by local laws and customs also, as well there own customs. If they want to speak their own language, let them! Obviously they should make every effort to learn their new local vernacular, but that's not so easy for all. Just imagine if you had to immigrate to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia for example, and you were told you "had to become" a local citizen, act like a local citizen and speak the local language. Hard? Wouldn't you feel bad if the locals looked down on you because you couldn't speak their language well, or if you were speaking in English with a friend while sitting on a bus. I do not agree for one second with the US process of "Amercanization" in which the immigrant must, according to you "replace any cultural values you once may have had" in the event of "if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain". I think it's idealistic and sound nice. But again I ask you, if you "had to" immigrate and the country you lived in went to war for example with the US, how would you feel about being obliged to "oppose" your homeland?

Ok, I'm starting to rant a bit here so I'll stop for a while!
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Kay
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
whether multiculturalism is the right approach after all

Personally, after having travelled and seen the world, I understand rightists. I really do. If the way you live your life isn't important, then what is?

Have you ever had your dinners boycotted by some because Alcohol was being served? I have.

Did you ever have a neighbour lock up his wife at home, and only let her out when he was there? I did.

Are the above too cases extreme? NO. Maybe it's a power game, maybe there are more roots to the problem, but God I am sticking to my relaxed non-extremist way of life, and sticking to people who do the same!

Kay
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:50 pm

Hello, everyone. Thank you for your interesting comments.

Because Banco has advised that he cannot access the article, please allow me to quote a fair-use excerpt from the same for your convenience of reference:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
October 11, 2006
Across Europe, Worries on Islam Spread to Center
By DAN BILEFSKY and IAN FISHER
BRUSSELS, Oct. 10 — Europe appears to be crossing an invisible line regarding its Muslim minorities: more people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values.

“You saw what happened with the pope,” said Patrick Gonman, 43, the owner of Raga, a funky wine bar in downtown Antwerp, 25 miles from here. “He said Islam is an aggressive religion. And the next day they kill a nun somewhere and make his point.

“Rationality is gone.”

Mr. Gonman is hardly an extremist. In fact, he organized a protest last week in which 20 bars and restaurants closed on the night when a far-right party with an anti-Muslim message held a rally nearby.

His worry is shared by centrists across Europe angry at terror attacks in the name of religion on a continent that has largely abandoned it, and disturbed that any criticism of Islam or Muslim immigration provokes threats of violence.

For years those who raised their voices were mostly on the far right. Now those normally seen as moderates — ordinary people as well as politicians — are asking whether once unquestioned values of tolerance and multiculturalism should have limits.

[ * * * ]

Now Europeans are discussing the limits of tolerance, the right with increasing stridency and the left with trepidation.

Austrians in their recent election complained about public schools in Vienna being nearly full with Muslim students and blamed the successive governments that allowed it to happen.

[ * * * ]

The backlash is revealing itself in other ways. Last month the British home secretary, John Reid, called on Muslim parents to keep a close watch on their children. “There’s no nice way of saying this,” he told a Muslim group in East London. “These fanatics are looking to groom and brainwash children, including your children, for suicide bombing, grooming them to kill themselves to murder others.”



It is a sad story, it seems, and one should view any potentially excessive crackdown against diversity with a jaundiced eye.
What's fair is fair.
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:54 pm

Europe is not a country.
IT cannot be taken on such a wide scale.
The cultural acceptance values would be different in France than in the UK, Italy, Greece, Spain etc.
It cannot be generalised, however I do believe in the ethnic minorities 'obeying' the 'culture' if you can call it that in some countries as a gesture of good will.
Thanks
PR
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 11):
Just imagine if you had to immigrate to Venezuela or Saudi Arabia for example, and you were told you "had to become" a local citizen, act like a local citizen and speak the local language. Hard?

Hard, but perfectly understandable. What's wrong with that?
 
halls120
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation. If you fail to comply, you will have significantly failed your duties to this country as a new American citizen, and the fault in this lies in you alone. While cultural distinctiveness may be optionally preserved where possible, if there is any conflict between American culture and your original culture in the public domain, the process of Americanization necessarily replaces any cultural values you once may have had.

Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 7):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation.

That must explain why Spanish is so popular and why most major US cities have a Chinatown.

Don't forget the explosion of spanish-language radio and television stations in the US. I wonder how they do that when Spanish is supposedly less popular with succeeding generations.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
JJJ
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Don't forget the explosion of spanish-language radio and television stations in the US. I wonder how they do that when Spanish is supposedly less popular with succeeding generations.

It used to happen, but not any more.

The times when 2nd or 3rd generation inmigrants prided themselves in not knowing Spanish are gone.

Spanish is mainstream now, with all the consequences.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

Twenty-seven states of our Union -- the majority of them, plus one -- have passed laws declaring English to be the official language of that state, excluding twenty-eighth state whose legislation to that effect was declared invalid.

Pending has been a Congressional bill that nationalizes the status of English to this effect.

Please see, e.g.:

http://www.us-english.org/inc/official/states.asp

[Edited 2006-10-11 17:58:56]
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 18):
have passed laws declaring English to be the official language of that state,

Have they really?

More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.

Yes, but consider that in Britain, even the "constitution" part of the "constitutional monarchy" under which your system of goverment operates appears to be, in the main, unwritten, or a matter of custom.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 20):
Yes, but consider that in Britain, even the "constitution" part of the "constitutional monarchy" under which your system of goverment operates appears to be, in the main, unwritten, or a matter of custom.

It appears you've been studying. Well done.  Wink
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JGPH1A
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
More than we've ever done in the UK; we don't have a constitutionally created official language - unless you count Norman French, which must still be used for certain elements of legislation.

True, but presumably laws and regulations regarding the publication of official documents (passports, drivers licences, Government Gazette (or whatever the equivalent is), must state something about what language they are produced in ? I believe Welsh drivers licenses are produced in Welsh and English, and there are some safeguards regarding the Welsh language in Wales, for example.

Re Norman French, I would think it possible that at least some of the very early laws documented by the very early Kings and Parliaments may have been written in Latin - Parliament consisting at that time of churchmen as well as barons.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 21):
It appears you've been studying. Well done.  Wink

Either that, or a couple of memory cells have reactivated. Quite inexplicably, I might add.

 Wink
What's fair is fair.
 
cornish
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
For a story in today's New York Times on both the newfound success of right-wing political parties and a rising tide of worry about the consequences of multiculturalism,

hmm well as mentioned by numerous people above, there is no standard way that all European countries and their populations behave. We all are different.

However this whole issue of right-wing political parties is being overstressed. More often than not the Right becomes popular because the Left, in power, is unpopular - and vice versa. To assume that this is happening because of multiculturalism is very simplistic reasoning. There may be the odd bit of protest voting temporarily here and there, but it is not the b-all and end-all.

More commonly European voters vote differently becuse of dissatisfaction with the economy and issues like that. (Germany being a prime example). Ignore the sensational stories that the press like to put out, the reality is that the War on Terror and national security are not the key issues when it comes to General elections.

The rise of the Right could just as easily be put down to protest voting against a current government over things that deep down have nothing to do with muticulturalism or issues like that. It often happens in Europe from time to time and then they disappear again only to pop up sometime in the future for a short while.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
True, but presumably laws and regulations regarding the publication of official documents (passports, drivers licences, Government Gazette (or whatever the equivalent is), must state something about what language they are produced in ? I believe Welsh drivers licenses are produced in Welsh and English, and there are some safeguards regarding the Welsh language in Wales, for example.

In a sort of backhand way. English is clearly the de facto official language and legislation with regard to Welsh or Gaelic or (God help us all) Cornish tend to be written in that light. Thus, the law that gave official status to Welsh did so by stating that it must be given equal status with English in Wales, without there being any law anywhere saying that documents must be written in English in the first place.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 22):
Re Norman French, I would think it possible that at least some of the very early laws documented by the very early Kings and Parliaments may have been written in Latin - Parliament consisting at that time of churchmen as well as barons.

No, we skipped Latin completely there. The Witan, which was the Anglo-Saxon "Parliament" (for want of a better term) wrote everything in Old English, but the arrival of the Normans saw rule by divine right for the first couple of centuries, and the removal of any official written Anglo-Saxon documentation. As a side note, that's a tragedy, as the Old English literature of the period was the finest anywhere in Europe, and of importance to the English to a far greater degree than any other society - maybe they passed on their sheer love of the written word to us, but the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is almost all the remains. Back to the point, the likes of the Provisions of Oxford, that led to the nascent Parliament were written in Norman French, and Norman French was the "official" (I'm using modern terms to describe centuries old events here) language in all court business and monarchical edicts. The ecclesiastical side certainly was always done in Latin, but whilst the churchmen had a great deal of power, it wasn't through Parliament; thus legislation was in Norman French.

Certainly until very recently, all laws also had to be transcribed into Norman French. It's possible that may have changed, but I'm not aware of it if it has.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 25):
or (God help us all) Cornish

There should definitely be a law against Cornish, as he is an offense against man and beast.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 26):
There should definitely be a law against Cornish, as he is an offense against man and beast.

Although as I understand it, he was only charged on the latter count....
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
Although as I understand it, he was only charged on the latter count....

Investigations are still under way on the former count by Consumer Protection officers, under the Trades Descriptions Act. The ad said "For a Good Time, Call..." and generated numerous complaints from disatisfied customers.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Asturias
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 17):
Spanish is mainstream now, with all the consequences.

I'm not complaining  Smile I like this development in the US. Spanish is a beutiful language and very similar to English in many ways. At least in vocabulary.

cheers

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
halls120
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 18):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

Twenty-seven states of our Union -- the majority of them, plus one -- have passed laws declaring English to be the official language of that state, excluding twenty-eighth state whose legislation to that effect was declared invalid.

Sorry, but that's not what you said. You said "That is, when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm." That a little over half of the states have passed laws saying English is the official language of the particular state is NOT a binding directive to ALL immigrants that they must accept "American mainstream cultural values."

Even if we had an "english is the official language" in all 50 states, that simply doesn't equate to the requirement you have set forth.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
That a little over half of the states have passed laws saying English is the official language of the particular state is NOT a binding directive to ALL immigrants that they must accept "American mainstream cultural values."

That part, which isn't the part you originally cited, is not in fact set forth in law. However, it is an expectation, because assimilation is an expectation formed by the totality of our national experience.

Suggested reading:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...nterforimmigra/002-1199164-3779033
What's fair is fair.
 
searpqx
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
When are you going to grasp that Europe is comprised of lots of different countries that have entirely different policies and cultures? Sweden and Spain are as alike as Canada and Venezuela.

About the same time that he realizes that his definition of left & right don't equate to wrong & right, in other words never.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Why are there ghettoes in Paris where the riots occurred in the last year, then?

If the US is the model of forced assimilation, why are there ghettos in LA where riots erupt every few years?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
Even if we had an "english is the official language" in all 50 states, that simply doesn't equate to the requirement you have set forth.

Further to Halls comments, go to the Web Portal for Washington state government, and right on the front page are links to six foreign language versions. In addition, we are required, by state law, to provide election materials to non-english speakers, with no limitation on who they may be, how old they are, what generation they are, etc.

Now the debate about whether such accommodations go to far is a good one, but the facts show that your opening statement is completely unfounded in reality. To then use it as a basis of comparison for 25+ nations, each with its own culture and customs, is ludicrous.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Toulouse
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 13):

Thanks for posting the article, an interesting read, but to be honest, I'm not overly concerned about. As a European living in another European country I am not aware of any significant surge in racist feelings or concerns about the integration of immigrants. Yes, with Bush's War on Terrorism, related issues do pop up in the press, but I don't really think the majority of Europeans are overly concerned about this issue, nor or the majority of immigrants (referring to many immigrants I know of Arab/Muslim/etc. origin.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15):
Hard, but perfectly understandable. What's wrong with that?

Don't get me wrong, not saying anything is wrong with it. I believe it "common courtesy" to try to integrate, but I am totally against it being "forced" on immigrants, just as I am against immigrants who rebel against integrating. I've lived so far in 4 different countries for long periods of time.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 24):
More commonly European voters vote differently becuse of dissatisfaction with the economy and issues like that.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 32):
About the same time that he realizes that his definition of left & right don't equate to wrong & right, in other words never.

Searpqx, you may be surprised to know that in the past, my views were considered quite liberal.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 32):
If the US is the model of forced assimilation, why are there ghettos in LA where riots erupt every few years?

I don't think that we've had riots in Los Angeles for a signficant number of years, and they certainly don't occur every few years.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 32):
Now the debate about whether such accommodations go to far is a good one, but the facts show that your opening statement is completely unfounded in reality. To then use it as a basis of comparison for 25+ nations, each with its own culture and customs, is ludicrous.

Did you read the reference to the book I cited? It's independent of what happens in Europe. Further, your argument in this respect is with the Times, not me.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 33):
. As a European living in another European country I am not aware of any significant surge in racist feelings or concerns about the integration of immigrants.

I'm very glad to read this. Europeans are some of the most advanced people in the world, and I should think that they wouldn't succumb to hatred against others.

[Edited 2006-10-11 21:10:29]
What's fair is fair.
 
searpqx
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
Searpqx, you may be surprised to know that in the past, my views were considered quite liberal.

I can only address what I've seen you post. Since your first post on this board you've consistently posited a view that the Right is right and the Left is wrong. In recent weeks you've gotten much more blatant about it, but its always been there.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
I don't think that we've had riots in Los Angeles for a signficant number of years, and they certainly don't occur every few years.

So instead of addressing the actual meat of the question, you're going to quibble over my description? Fine, I'll rephrase:
If the US is the model of forced assimilation, why are there ghettos in LA?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
Did you read the reference to the book I cited? It's independent of what happens in Europe. Further, your argument in this respect is with the Times, not me.

No, my argument is with you and your opener. You clearly state that in the US, assimilation is a requirement. You use that statement as a comparison to what's has been acceptable in Europe in the past and what's happening now. The fact that you're getting your backup from linked stories and books doesn't change your original position.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 35):
Fine, I'll rephrase:
If the US is the model of forced assimilation, why are there ghettos in LA?

For a number of reasons, including a legacy of past failures and the inability of some to find jobs. There are also issues of personal responsibility. But it is my argument that the ghettos here are not the result of systematic exclusion on the part of either the majority or the minority, which I've found has been described as the case in France.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 35):
You clearly state that in the US, assimilation is a requirement.

Yes, by the terms of culture, but not by statute. Nor did I say otherwise.

If you do not assimilate, you could be looked at as strange and deficient in some way by a great many people and there would be a social cost levied accordingly.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
That a little over half of the states have passed laws saying English is the official language of the particular state is NOT a binding directive to ALL immigrants that they must accept "American mainstream cultural values."

That part, which isn't the part you originally cited, is not in fact set forth in law. However, it is an expectation, because assimilation is an expectation formed by the totality of our national experience.

Who says it is an "expectation?" You? A single conservative writer with the Heritage Foundation?

The simple fact is that you made a grand pronouncement about all immigrants being required to adopt mainstream American values. I've asked you twice to provide some source material for this position, and with the exception of a setting forth a single conservative scribe mentioned above, you've avoided answering me.

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 32):
Now the debate about whether such accommodations go to far is a good one, but the facts show that your opening statement is completely unfounded in reality. To then use it as a basis of comparison for 25+ nations, each with its own culture and customs, is ludicrous.

 thumbsup 

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 35):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
Did you read the reference to the book I cited? It's independent of what happens in Europe. Further, your argument in this respect is with the Times, not me.

No, my argument is with you and your opener. You clearly state that in the US, assimilation is a requirement. You use that statement as a comparison to what's has been acceptable in Europe in the past and what's happening now. The fact that you're getting your backup from linked stories and books doesn't change your original position.

 thumbsup 

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 36):
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 35):
You clearly state that in the US, assimilation is a requirement.

Yes, by the terms of culture, but not by statute. Nor did I say otherwise.

 rotfl  First you cite a series of state laws regarding English as the official language as basis for your original pronouncement, and now it's culture, not statute. Which one is it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 37):
First you cite a series of state laws regarding English as the official language as basis for your original pronouncement, and now it's culture, not statute. Which one is it?

My comment that it wasn't statutory was about the need to assimilate. However, there are in fact laws that mandate the learning of the English language, which is a component of assimilation. The response I gave citing the laws of twenty-seven states was in reply to your request, as follows:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Really? Where in the Constitution or other public document is this obligation recorded?

The statutes indicate the existence of this obligation, but obviously are not co-extensive with it. It's the difference between citation to a law that says that one must drive at a certain speed, and the general statement that states have a responsibility to regulate that speed: The former is an indication of the existence of the latter, but the latter is a larger obligation that may, or may not, be specifically noted as such in law, except by specific examples. This is inductive reasoning, with which you no doubt are familiar.

I find your argument that the citation of a source fails to support my thesis curious. The book itself contains a thesis that could only be supported if there were various instances contained within it, which could be inferred to exist. If, at every turn, your methodology is to demand more and more proof, while failing to accommodate the reasonable implications of what others have been presented, your criticism will no longer be taken very seriously.

To see this, you need only look at the arguments of the left in favor of gun control. They will often say, for example, that there is no need to own guns and ask you to provide proof that you should own them. When you point to any single document, such as the Constitution and its Second Amendment, they will dismiss it in much the same way that you dismiss the provision of the support I gave -- without according it its due. One cannot seriously expect such a bizarre and dogmatic way of arguing to prevail. Either you engage in a rational debate, or you engage in nothing more than pure rhetoric with nothing to support it than a corrosive skepticism determined to shove all contrary evidence aside. I will certainly leave it up to the reader to decide whether your methodology here engages in such a practice.

However, if you insist on further support, I can direct your attention to a recent case in which, even though a state measure in favor of the establishment of English as an official language was deemed unconstitutional by the liberal Ninth Circuit, even that Court found value in assimilation:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
Like the Court in Meyer and Tokushige, we recognize the
importance of (1) promoting democracy and national unity and (2)
encouraging a common language as a means of encouraging such
unity. See Guadalupe Organization, Inc., supra. [...] The two
primary justifications relied on by the article's proponents are
indeed closely linked.

Yniguez v. Arizonans for Official English (9th Cir. 1995) 69 F.3d 920, 923 (footnote omitted).

The Ninth Circuit went on to say that the Arizona constitutional amendment as written in question violated the First Amendment and decided the case based on its interpretation of precedent against the English-only group, but the import of assimilation was clearly recognized nonetheless.

[Edited 2006-10-11 22:36:39]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:55 am

By the way, here is the relevant language from the Guadalupe Organization case mentioned in the excerpt from Yniguez:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
Our analysis returns us to the
foundations of organized society as manifested by the
nation-state. We commence by recognizing that the existence of
the nation-state rests ultimately on the consent of its people.
The scope of this fundamental compact may be extensive or
limited. Its breadth fixes the effective limits of government by
the nation-state.

[17] Linguistic and cultural diversity within the nation-state,
whatever may be its advantages from time to time, can restrict
the scope of the fundamental compact. Diversity limits unity.
Effective action by the nation-state rises to its peak of
strength only when it is in response to aspirations unreservedly
shared by each constituent culture and language group. As
affection which a culture or group bears toward a particular
aspiration abates, and as the scope of sharing diminishes, the
strength of the nation-state's government wanes.

[18] Syncretism retards, and sometimes even reverses, the shrinkage
of the compact caused by linguistic and cultural diversity. But
it would be incautious to strengthen diversity in language and
culture repeatedly trusting only in syncretic processes to
preserve the social compact. In the language of eighteenth
century philosophy, the century in which our Constitution was
written, the social compact depends on the force of benevolence
which springs naturally from the hearts of all men but which
attenuates as it crosses linguistic and cultural lines. See
Wills, Inventing America, 315, Ch. 13, 15, 23 and passim
(1978). Multiple linguistic and cultural centers impede both the
egress of each center's own and the ingress of all others.
Benevolence, moreover, spends much of its force within each
center and, to reinforce affection toward insiders, hostility
toward outsiders develops.

[19] The fundamental nature of these tendencies makes clear that
their scope varies from generation to generation and is fixed by
the political process in its highest sense. The Constitution,
aside from guaranteeing to individuals certain basic rights,
privileges, powers, and immunities, does not speak to such
matters; it merely evidences a compact whose scope and strength
cannot be mandated by the courts but must be determined by the
people acting upon the urgings of their hearts. The decision of
the appellees to provide a predominantly monocultural and
monolingual educational system was a rational response to a
quintessentially "legitimate" state interest. The same perforce
would be said were the appellees to adopt the appellants' demands
and be challenged by an English-speaking child and his parents
whose ancestors were Pilgrims.

Guadalupe Organization, Inc. v. Tempe Elementary School (9th Cir. 1978) 587 F.2d 1022, 1027.

[Edited 2006-10-11 22:57:21]
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 38):
However, there are in fact laws that mandate the learning of the English language, which is a component of assimilation.

According to the website you provided a link to, most laws that set out English as an official language state do so in the following manner: "Declaring English the official language means that official government business at all levels must be conducted solely in English. This includes all public documents, records, legislation and regulations, as well as hearings, official ceremonies and public meetings."

And the only law I've found that mandates the learning of english is the provision that imposes such a requirement for immigrants seeking to become naturalized. Even then, there are exceptions:
"Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language. Applicants exempt from this requirement are those who on the date of filing:

* have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 15 years or more and are over 55 years of age;
* have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 20 years or more and are over 50 years of age; or
* have a medically determinable physical or mental impairment, where the impairment affects the applicantÕs ability to learn English."

no requirement to speak english is imposed for people seeking a permanent residency visa.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 38):
The statutes indicate the existence of this obligation,

Cite, please.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 38):
I can direct your attention to a recent case in which, even though a state measure in favor of the establishment of English as an official language was deemed unconstitutional by the liberal Ninth Circuit, even that Court found value in assimilation:

I'm not questioning the value of assimilation. I'm questioning your claim that "when you come here to live as an American, you must accept American mainstream cultural values in your dealings in the public realm. This is not a request, but an obligation."
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
andessmf
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):

When are you going to grasp that Europe is comprised of lots of different countries that have entirely different policies and cultures?

When the Europeans realize that the same applies to the US.

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):

There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur.

And when was the last time the US had large scale race based riots?

Quoting JJJ (Reply 17):

The times when 2nd or 3rd generation inmigrants prided themselves in not knowing Spanish are gone.

BS! There are many facets to the hispanic population here in the US. We speak Spanish to our kids at home, and they go to English speaking schools. Now even my 4 y.o. can switch between the two. But it is HARD to keep them proficient in Spanish.

I have seen plenty of examples where the parents will speak Spanish and the kids will answer back in English, and the children are and will be mediocre speakers. The only way you can keep yourself to only Spanish here in the US is if that is what you want.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 41):
When the Europeans realize that the same applies to the US.

It does? Oregonians totally different nation with distinct culture/history/language from let's say Washingtonians?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Now, however, many Europeans are questioning whether multiculturalism is the right approach after all.

it is NOT a new matter at all. In Switzerland for example was a public vote around 1970 which, had people approved, would have resulted in the eviction of 100'000s of foreigners. In France, Mr LePen for decades has whirled up xenophobe notions with considerable success. In Austria, more than a decade ago, a rightwing xenophobe party got into a coalition-government, etc .
 
Toulouse
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
In France, Mr LePen for decades has whirled up xenophobe notions with considerable success.

LePen is an idiot. I do not think he has had considerable success, he has simply been used by disgruntled French voters on the first round of which 99% had no intention of voting for him after in the second round. Have still to meet a French person (after 4 years living here) who has a single good word to say about Le Pen.

Your own country seems to be a bit strange, I have heard much of xenephobic feelings (not so much racism), but I suppose you are a small country with a huge foreign population. I feel the same is today occurring in Ireland. Nevertheless, I have spent much time in Switzerland, and have always found the people to be wonderful. Wow, I miss Switzerland, 4 years nearly now without visiting.... I must do something about that soon!
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 44):
LePen is an idiot. I do not think he has had considerable success, he has simply been used by disgruntled French voters on the first round of which 99% had no intention of voting for him after in the second round. Have still to meet a French person (after 4 years living here) who has a single good word to say about Le Pen.

well, but his FN is in many local governments (maires, etc) and in a variety of parliaments with more than 10%

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 44):
a bit strange, I have heard much of xenephobic feelings

true, there is some xenophobia around. And "foreign-looking" persons in conservative restaurants are "glanced" at in a way to realize NOT to be desired, and in some either NOT served or only as the last and with delay. But that xenophobia is a minority matter. That many Swiss oppose ILlegal immigration and the high number of refugees (one of the highest per capita figures in Europe) is obvious however
 
cedars747
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
When are you going to grasp that Europe is comprised of lots of different countries that have entirely different policies and cultures? Sweden and Spain are as alike as Canada and Venezuela.

Well said Banco!
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
767Lover
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 42):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 41):
When the Europeans realize that the same applies to the US.

It does? Oregonians totally different nation with distinct culture/history/language from let's say Washingtonians?

Of course it's not a totally different nation. But there ARE distinct differences in the attitudes/values/opinions/culture of various regions of the U.S.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
Britain on the other hand is the polar opposite and wholehearted embraced multiculturalism from the early 60s onwards.

... at the expense of British culture perhaps? I don't think that many "native" Brits are all that pleased with multiculturalism at all.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 20):
Yes, but consider that in Britain, even the "constitution" part of the "constitutional monarchy" under which your system of goverment operates appears to be, in the main, unwritten, or a matter of custom.

Magna Carta of 1215 ? Bill of Rights of 1689 ? Both written a long time before America was even a twinkle in it's daddy's winkle.



Quoting Toulouse (Reply 33):
I am not aware of any significant surge in racist feelings or concerns about the integration of immigrants.

Portugal has for decades been a country of emigrants, so there has always been an understanding towards people who come here from say Brazil, or the ex colonies, looking for a better life. Only recently (last +/- 5 yrs) have we seen large scale immigration (mostly from Eastern Europe). Whilst it wasn't a problem at first, as the economy slowed and unemployment rose, people start blaming the immigrants for taking the jobs even if it isn't true. What large scale immigration has done is drive down the cost of labour, and whilst at first that might not have been a bad thing, it has become a problem, because the people doing the work for peanuts aren't paying taxes and social security contributions.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Europe Re-Examines Multiculturalism

Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
There are ghettoes in the US where riots occur. Does that mean France is identical to the US?

Actually the word "ghetto" is not used anymore in the US, but rather "inner city".

I'm not sure if the connotation is the same either. In the US it usually signifies low income poor neighborhoods in a city. In Europe it is areas in a city where groups of minorities are funneled to live. The Jewish Ghetto in Poland during WW2 comes to mind. Not necessarily poor but segregated. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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