halls120
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Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:18 am

Anyone care to explain the rationale behind this decision?

Quote:
Christian BA employee suspended for wearing cross necklace
13.10.06

A Christian woman has been banned by British Airways for wearing a small cross necklace to work - while muslims and sikhs are allowed to wear headscarves and turbans.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...+wearing+cross+necklace/article.do
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:26 am

Quite possible that they have a general ban on necklaces of any kind, independent of whether there are religious symbols attached to them or not.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:27 am

Because the Christian woman likely got upset, but won't like blow anything up tonight on her way home . . . .

It's called reverse discrimination . . . happens all the time . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Quite possible that they have a general ban on necklaces of any kind, independent of whether there are religious symbols attached to them or not.

Didn't read the article, I see.

Quote:
Under rules drawn up by BA's 'diversity team' and 'uniform committee', Sikh employees can even wear the traditional iron bangle - even though this would usually be classed as jewellery - while Muslim workers are also allowed prayer breaks during work time.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AirCop
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:32 am

Doesn't make any sense to me either, wondering if something else was happening that we are not aware of.

Quoting Jpax (Reply 1):
Because if Muslims were told to remove their turbans.

Probably protected by a specific law/court case etc.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:35 am

On the surface it would seem so. However, are the accessories worn by the Muslims and Sikhs a required part of thier faith, or are they optional? I know as a Christian, wearing the cross is optional.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 6):
On the surface it would seem so. However, are the accessories worn by the Muslims and Sikhs a required part of thier faith, or are they optional? I know as a Christian, wearing the cross is optional.

Why should that make a difference? The fact is, as the article notes, "Her Sikh and Muslim colleagues at BA can show their faith publicly in what they wear, but Nadia and other Christians cannot. All we are asking for is a level playing field for all faiths."
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
Didn't read the article, I see.

Indeed not, initially.

As it turns out, however, nobody else appears to be allowed to wear necklaces, either:

Quote:
The airline's uniform code states that staff must not wear visible jewellery or other 'adornments' while on duty without permission from management.

While I'd agree, of course, that the exceptions are not entirely consistent...

Quote:
It makes exceptions for Muslim and Sikh minorities by allowing them to wear hijabs and turbans.

Under rules drawn up by BA's 'diversity team' and 'uniform committee', Sikh employees can even wear the traditional iron bangle - even though this would usually be classed as jewellery - while Muslim workers are also allowed prayer breaks during work time.

Not exactly the same, however. An armband is not an overtly religious symbol, and it might be less problematic regarding safety-relevant situations.

Hijabs and turbans are actually cultural symbols more than religious ones, so it's not exactly the same either. What is more, both are culturally mandated within certain groups, while the wearing of a cross necklace is not - it is very much optional. So allowing the former may remove a barrier of access to a career while the latter certainly won't.

Allowing prayer breaks out of sight of the passengers is a minor concession without substantial impact on either passenger service or safety, so it doesn't really figure here.

Preventing harassment of any kind within the workforce through "diversity training" is a completely obvious HR improvement and not a concession of any sort.

I'm not saying the overall result is terribly consistent - but I can understand how they might have come about, up to a point.

The fact remains that a consistent position will require a bit more than just mixing the end result of various concessions to pressure groups.

On the other hand, the artificial and predictable outrage of western religious pressure groups in such instants is rather disingenuous and the attempts to mix prevention of harrassment and the denial of extra concessions for religious demonstration are more than just a bit twisted with a distinct odor of the dark ages...
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
On the other hand, the artificial and predictable outrage of western religious pressure groups in such instants is rather disingenuous and the attempts to mix prevention of harrassment and the denial of extra concessions for religious demonstration are more than just a bit twisted with a distinct odor of the dark ages...

What an unmitigated crock of sh*t.

If BA is going to ban visible Christian symbols worn by its employees while on duty - and I think they have the right to do so - the same rule should apply to all other faiths. The "mandatory/optional" distinction is pure political correctness BS.

We either treat people equally, or suffer the consequences of civil and cultural strife that will be the inevitable outcome of the persistent unequal policies like the one currently in place at BA.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
If BA is going to ban visible Christian symbols worn by its employees while on duty - and I think they have the right to do so - the same rule should apply to all other faiths. The "mandatory/optional" distinction is pure political correctness BS.

Not for those for whom certain things are perceived as mandatory.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
We either treat people equally, or suffer the consequences of civil and cultural strife that will be the inevitable outcome of the persistent unequal policies like the one currently in place at BA.

It's not quite as simple - although the current state of affairs would indeed make me long for a greater level of consistency - and severely downgrading the relative priority of perceived impediments to people's expression of their respective superstitions may very well be a step into the right direction.

After all, Having people around me and in charge of my safety who believe in an afterlife paradise (of various kinds) could very well make me feel rather uneasy in light of 9-11 and other events...  mischievous 

I might very much prefer not being confronted with the weird superstitions the crew may individually choose to adhere to...!
 
Bobster2
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:19 pm

If your job requires you to conform to a dress code, and your religion forbids you to conform to the dress code, you need to find another job. (In the context of this thread "you" refers to Muslims and Sikhs).

On the other hand, if the employer drops the dress code for one group, they should drop it for all groups.

[Edited 2006-10-14 06:21:31]
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
zippyjet
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Because the Christian woman likely got upset, but won't like blow anything up tonight on her way home . . . .

It's called reverse discrimination . . . happens all the time .

I've got to go with ANCFlyer on this one. Only rationale is BA dress/uniform code. Otherwise, it is another attack of When political correctness goes from bad to much worse!

I'm Jewish and someone wearing a crucifix doesn't offend me in the least, and, if Muslims want to wear turbans and other symbols of their religion than so be it. What's the problem?

Totally different than if this employee started preaching the New Testament at the airport (her work station).

Also I personally have no problems or issues when it comes to Santa Klaus, Kreshes or Menorahs during the holiday season. Honestly, I'm less than enthusiastic when during the holiday season I have to be bombarded by The Little Drummer Boy or some of the other more intense holiday tunes. But, let me stop here as I'm flying off course (off topic).
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
Halcyon
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 11):
If your job requires you to conform to a dress code, and your religion forbids you to conform to the dress code, you need to find another job. (In the context of this thread "you" refers to Muslims and Sikhs).

On the other hand, if the employer drops the dress code for one group, they should drop it for all groups.

Probably the bst reply I've seen so far. You should follow the dress code, and indeed the current regulation is unfair.

Lucas  Smile
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 7):
Why should that make a difference?

If a clothing item is optional in a particular religion or culture, the person wouldn't be in hot water (for lack of a better term) with their religion or culture should they not wear said item. That is my speculation on why BA management made the decision they did. Not that I agree with it though.

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 11):
On the other hand, if the employer drops the dress code for one group, they should drop it for all groups.

Exactly.  yes 
I lift things up and put them down.
 
zippyjet
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 13):
On the other hand, if the employer drops the dress code for one group, they should drop it for all groups.

Agreed but this can happen   

  

and yes, two legged bovines will also be able to wear less!   




[Edited 2006-10-14 07:01:01]
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
Halcyon
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 15):

and yes, two legged bovines will also be able to wear less!

So here I am not feeling good already, and now here I am after throwing up at that picture! Send it back it back to the depths of Hell where it came from! I was mildly interested at first, and now my eyeballs have been permanently seared shut! The pain!  banghead   crazy   faint   sour   talktothehand   tired   yuck   yuck   yuck  That is the smilie representation of how my stomach feels now!
 
BA
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:06 pm

You can't compare the two. One is a religious symbol, the other is a piece of cloth.

Some Muslim women wear a headscarf to cover up their hair.

Some Sikhs wear a turban to hold up their hair as they are not allowed to cut their it, so the cloth is used to hold the long hair together and make it manageable.

They are not religious symbols, they are just pieces of cloth used to serve a specific religious purpose.

If a Muslim woman wanted to, she could wear a cardboard box over her head to cover her hair and the purpose would be served.

Banning employees from wearing a necklace with the word Allah written in Arabic or a necklace with a crescent and star on it (not too common, but they do exist) would be the equivalent of banning a necklace with a cross on it.

If BA wants to ban necklaces with religious symbols on them, by all means, let them do it. In fact, I'd support it.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
N1120A
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 7):
Why should that make a difference? The fact is, as the article notes, "Her Sikh and Muslim colleagues at BA can show their faith publicly in what they wear, but Nadia and other Christians cannot. All we are asking for is a level playing field for all faiths."

Actually, it does make a difference. Wearing a cross is not a religious duty, most devout Moslem women believe that wearing a scarf over their hair is and Sikhs do have to carry their traditional weapons (be happy they aren't carrying the knife). They are not making religious statements, as this woman is, they are performing their religious duties. In a country without a Constitution, it makes it even more difficult to speak to whether BA can determine what speech is and isn't allowed. Of course, you likely think that business can regulate employee speech any time they want.

Quoting BA (Reply 17):
Banning employees from wearing a necklace with the word Allah written in Arabic or a necklace with a crescent and star on it (not too common, but they do exist) would be the equivalent of banning a necklace with a cross on it.

Makes sense, though I have a major issue with private business infringing on free speech rights.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):If BA is going to ban visible Christian symbols worn by its employees while on duty - and I think they have the right to do so - the same rule should apply to all other faiths. The "mandatory/optional" distinction is pure political correctness BS.
Not for those for whom certain things are perceived as mandatory.

"Perceived" as mandatory? So we are going to be governed by "perceptions" of what is and is not mandatory?

The wearing of religious dress and religious symbols is a highly personal choice. While I respect anyone who wears a headscarf as a symbol of their religious belief, if an employee is permitted to wear anything visible that is worn because of religious belief, ALL employees must be allowed to do the same. Either BA bans it all or allows it all, the policy must be uniformly applied.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):We either treat people equally, or suffer the consequences of civil and cultural strife that will be the inevitable outcome of the persistent unequal policies like the one currently in place at BA.
It's not quite as simple

Sure it is. Equality is one of the easiest concepts around.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):

Actually, it does make a difference. Wearing a cross is not a religious duty, most devout Moslem women believe that wearing a scarf over their hair is and Sikhs do have to carry their traditional weapons (be happy they aren't carrying the knife).

Oh, are you now speaking for all Christians? I know Christians who DO believe wearing the cross IS a religious duty.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Of course, you likely think that business can regulate employee speech any time they want.

Still trying to put words in my mouth, eh?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ltbewr
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:02 am

First France, now the UK. PC'ism running the world.
I could understand such a rule existing for staff flight crew in or going to/from certain Islamic countries (Saudi Arabia being the best example) because of laws banning any references to any religion but Islam or to make one less of a target of certain terrorists. Having a necklace kept hidden could be a ligitment safety issue too, to prevent an angry pax or customer grabbing it and hurting you.
If the rule as with this Christian woman with BA was mandated by any USA airline (with the exceptions I suggested above), millions of religious Americans would bury that airline with tons of e-mails and snail mail letters in protest. For many Christians and persons of other faiths, jewelry with references to their faith is very important to them or it may have deep sentimental value to them (from a spouse, parent or close relative).
If one is wearing a simple, relatively small Cross, Star of David or similar religious symbol and it isn't on general display, and they are not shoving their faith on others, then let it be. Quit harassing the Christians and other religious.
 
Speedbirdie
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:18 am

What the hell is wrong with everyone?
As I stated in the civil-aviation version of this thread, its about UNIFORM GUIDELINES, not f*cking religion...
I wear a St Christopher. I work for BA. I adhere to my UNIFORM standards by covering it up. If she cant read her f*cking manual on UNIFORM standards, then she should not be in the job.
This is really starting to piss me off. BA have done nothing wrong here. Why cant everyone else see that?
Never give up..
 
Marco
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:43 am

It's just some more political correctness gone wrong. I don't see the harm in a Christian woman wearing a cross, or a Muslim woman wearing an Allah necklace, or a Jew wearing a star of David. These are signs of belief in God and no one should be offended. Regarding the veil, I don't agree with it in its essence but that's a different issue. Maybe one day people in the west will wake up and smell the coffee that this political correctness has gone to far and might cost them alot, maybe they wont. I hope they do before its too late.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Speedbirdie (Reply 21):
This is really starting to piss me off. BA have done nothing wrong here. Why cant everyone else see that?

because we don't agree with you.

BA evidently lets some employees wear articles of a religious nature, and doesn't let others do the same thing.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
trvyyz
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 22):
I don't see the harm in a Christian woman wearing a cross, or a Muslim woman wearing an Allah necklace, or a Jew wearing a star of David. These are signs of belief in God and no one should be offended.

Maybe one day people in the west will wake up and smell the coffee that this political correctness has gone to far and might cost them alot, maybe they wont. I hope they do before its too late.

 checkmark 

"Happy Holidays" something i learnt after coming here.
 
scamp
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
It's called reverse discrimination . . . happens all the time . .

Yes, yes, of course it is. Poor little Christians...nobody loves 'em. Boo-hoo.

Quoting Jpax (Reply 1):
Because if Muslims were told to remove their turbans

Oh, give me f*ckin' break! Since when is a turban a religious symbol akin to a cross or even a Star of David.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
Elite
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:24 pm

Muslims would demand the person be executed...

AND

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Because the Christian woman likely got upset, but won't like blow anything up tonight on her way home . . . .
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
BA evidently lets some employees wear articles of a religious nature, and doesn't let others do the same thing.

Both turbans and headscarves are not religious symbols, they're cultural ones.
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):BA evidently lets some employees wear articles of a religious nature, and doesn't let others do the same thing.
Both turbans and headscarves are not religious symbols, they're cultural ones.

You're kidding, right?

Quote:
Why I Wear the Muslim Headscarf

By Aaminah Hernandez **

July 21, 2005

I have never written anything personal on the subject of hijab because it seems like an overdone issue. Sometimes I think so much focus is put on this one little aspect of being a Muslim woman, to the detriment of more important Islamic knowledge and practice. Because the headscarf is such a visual symbol of the Muslim woman, many non-Muslims are the ones who make a large issue of it, spout ill-informed opinions, or ask questions in an attempt to understand.

and...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3309723.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3328277.stm

And for the Sikhs

Quote:
Sikhs and their Turban

Gurmit Singh Australia

Background:

Accordingly to the Biblical Terms, "Turban" means a head covering worn by men, made of cloth wrapped around the head. This fact can also be seen in respect of old paintings exhibited in the Museums and the past literature pertaining to the earlier history. During the fifteenth century when Guru Nanak Sahib (CE 1469-1539) founded the Sikh religion, India was then being ruled by the Muslim Rulers whereas Hindus were their slaves. In those days most of the Muslims and Hindus used to keep "Turbans" though some of them had also been wearing Ôcaps (topi) or kulahÕ. From the very beginning of his childhood, Guru Nanak also continued the tradition of keeping long hair intact and covering the head by tying a Turban. This continued to be followed by his nine successors (1539 - 1708). In this respect reference could be sighted in the "Guru Granth Sahib", the Sacred Scripture of the Sikhs:

"Let living in His presence, with mind rid of impurities be your discipline. Keep the God-given body intact and with a Turban donned on your head". (GGSÐPage 1084)
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
trvyyz
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Both turbans and headscarves are not religious symbols, they're cultural ones.

Doesn't make a difference. You could argue it is not the same, but at the end of the day it is the same. These cultural symbols are related directly or indirectly to the religion.

And the interesting part is covering the head is mentioned in their religion while wearing a cross is mentioned nowhere in the Bible, and yet people say it is religious. Why can't people see that a cross is a cross, it has a meaning only for Christians and others need see it simply as a cross.

Why don't you remove the cross from the Red Cross because it is a religious symbol?

Many wear a cross just as fashion eg. Madonna, i don't see her being religious any way. It is just a cross and nothing more for non-believers.
 
scamp
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
You're kidding, right?

You're comparing a head covering to the most important symbol for a major religion?!?!? It's official...I have now heard it all.  eyepopping   faint 
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
Jpax
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 24):
Oh, give me f*ckin' break! Since when is a turban a religious symbol akin to a cross or even a Star of David.

   You apparently dont know much about world events, do you? Remember when the Pope opened his mouth about Islam, and how much violent protests and suicide bombers came into action? That wasn't even a direct command like this was, that was just a broad statement!

You don't think telling a Muslim or Sikh to remove a turban would upset them even a little bit? I do. I know it would. Do you know that a turban is used to keep their hair up since it is not allowed to be cut? Do you think their employer would like these men walking in to the workplace with long, grungy hair? They can't cut it, so they would likely get fired for failing to uphold the dress code. Most Muslims and Sikhs take pride in their turban, too, and being told to take it off or be fired would be an insult.

Insult + Islam = Buckle up. Welcome to earth.  Yeah sure

And how were you a 'former airline emloyee' at 13-15 years old?

[Edited 2006-10-15 21:46:52]
 
N1120A
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
Oh, are you now speaking for all Christians? I know Christians who DO believe wearing the cross IS a religious duty.

The most religious Christians I know, both Protestant and Catholic, don't wear crosses.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):
Still trying to put words in my mouth, eh?

Just emulating you, oh great one.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 29):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):You're kidding, right?
You're comparing a head covering to the most important symbol for a major religion?!?!? It's official...I have now heard it all. ÊÊ ÊÊ

I was simply responding to Klaus' preposterous claim that the head scarf for Muslims and turban for Sikhs were simply cultural symbols.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 18):Still trying to put words in my mouth, eh?
Just emulating you, oh great one.

Hey, I'm not the one who can't seem to back the groundless assertions you frequently make, or answer very simple questions about the free market and Al Franken!  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:25 am

It is part of most airline's company dress code (including my own)that no necklaces, anything more than stud earrings or more than one bangle can be worn. She signed a contract stating she accepted all the conditions of employment, she broke those conditions, she got disciplinary action taken against her. No sympathy. Next.

"The airline's uniform code states that staff must not wear visible jewellery or other 'adornments' while on duty without permission from management."

Bingo. She could have applied for permission from management - she didn't. How sad, nevermind.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 32):
I was simply responding to Klaus' preposterous claim that the head scarf for Muslims and turban for Sikhs were simply cultural symbols.

They are.

The cross, the crescent moon and david's star signify "christianity", "islam" or "judaism".

A head scarf has been a traditional garment in Europe, too, as in many other regions. A turban is worn by many people, actually most of them not being sikhs. In both cases, those garments have strong cultural connotations, but they are not comparable to the direct and emblematic symbol for a religion.
 
santosdumont
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:13 am

When the subject is delicate, as in this case, it seems that even-handed consistency is best.

The fact that Mr. Walsh upheld the ruling to suspend the woman despite violating the dress code himself tears a huge hole in BA's credibility.

I personally don't see anything wrong with an employee who wears a cross, Star of David, a star and crescent, an "om", etc.

If you ban one, you must necessarily ban the rest.

Now, issues like Sikh headwear and bracelets are another matter.

Banning those would be tantamount to barring things like the opportunity for a Jewish employee to eat kosher meals, prayer breaks for Muslims, or the special undergarments which Mormons wear. Things like that are, to a believer, non-negotiable; like preventing a Catholic employee from taking Good Friday off or forcing them to eat meat on that day.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
A head scarf has been a traditional garment in Europe, too, as in many other regions. A turban is worn by many people, actually most of them not being sikhs. In both cases, those garments have strong cultural connotations, but they are not comparable to the direct and emblematic symbol for a religion

What part of "Because the headscarf is such a visual symbol of the Muslim woman" and "Let living in His presence, with mind rid of impurities be your discipline. Keep the God-given body intact and with a Turban donned on your head" do you not understand?

Yes, turbans and headscarves are worn by many people for other than religious reasons. But BA didn't make an exception to its uniform policy for "cultural" wearing of the headscarf and turban: "The airline's uniform code states that staff must not wear visible jewellery or other 'adornments' while on duty without permission from management. It makes exceptions for Muslim and Sikh minorities by allowing them to wear hijabs and turbans."

Unless the article has misquoted BA's uniform policy, it would appear that the BA policy allowing headscarves and turbans was because of their religious significance, not their cultural significance.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 32):
or answer very simple questions about the free market and Al Franken!

I answer them all the time, you just have selective reading comprehension.
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halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 32):or answer very simple questions about the free market and Al Franken!
I answer them all the time, you just have selective reading comprehension.

Actually, you don't. At least in a substantive manner, that is.

But let's see if you can stay on point in this thread.

In your opinion, does BA allow the wearing o the headscarf and turban because they are cultural symbols or religious symbols?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 36):
What part of "Because the headscarf is such a visual symbol of the Muslim woman" and "Let living in His presence, with mind rid of impurities be your discipline. Keep the God-given body intact and with a Turban donned on your head" do you not understand?

You missed the point again. Religions have always adopted cultural peculiarities they had been confronted with, and none of that has ever made them the actual symbol of that religion.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 36):
Unless the article has misquoted BA's uniform policy, it would appear that the BA policy allowing headscarves and turbans was because of their religious significance, not their cultural significance.

Quite possibly - but there is still no reason presented so far why the prohibition of necklaces in general should be abolished.
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 36):Unless the article has misquoted BA's uniform policy, it would appear that the BA policy allowing headscarves and turbans was because of their religious significance, not their cultural significance.
Quite possibly - but there is still no reason presented so far why the prohibition of necklaces in general should be abolished.

So - you agree that BA is allowing the wearing of the headscarf and the turban because of their religious significance, yet you have no problem with BA banning the wearing of a necklace that is also a religious symbol.

So in your world, religious symbols worn on the head are OK, while religious symbols worn anywhere else are not. Amazing. And you wonder why some people are getting tired of the lack of consistency when it comes to how governments deal with religion.

I wonder if BA's uniform policy allows members of the Jewish faith to wear a yarmulke while in uniform?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):
In your opinion, does BA allow the wearing o the headscarf and turban because they are cultural symbols or religious symbols?

In my opinion, they allow them because they are neither. They allow turbans partially for safety (you wouldn't want a Sikh tripping over his hair) and they allow headscarfs or those wraps that many African Moslem women wear because they aren't a specifically religious symbol, merely a way for women to follow the rules they believe their religion has. It is sort of like the famous UPS yamalukes for the large group of Orthodox Jews who work for them.
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Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
So - you agree that BA is allowing the wearing of the headscarf and the turban because of their religious significance, yet you have no problem with BA banning the wearing of a necklace that is also a religious symbol.

a) Clothing is not jewelry. While the former can be integrated into a uniform, the latter has various connotations, religious or not.

b) The emblem of a religion is a completely different thing than articles of clothing it might recommend or mandate.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
I wonder if BA's uniform policy allows members of the Jewish faith to wear a yarmulke while in uniform?

Very likely. I guess you'd love to find some evil conspiracy behind this, but I think that is extremely unlikely.
 
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):In your opinion, does BA allow the wearing o the headscarf and turban because they are cultural symbols or religious symbols?
In my opinion, they allow them because they are neither.

Did you even read the article linked at the beginning of the thread?

"The airline's uniform code states that staff must not wear visible jewellery or other 'adornments' while on duty without permission from management. It makes exceptions for Muslim and Sikh minorities by allowing them to wear hijabs and turbans."

How do you get to a conclusion that they allow scarves and turbans because of safety concerns?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):So - you agree that BA is allowing the wearing of the headscarf and the turban because of their religious significance, yet you have no problem with BA banning the wearing of a necklace that is also a religious symbol.
a) Clothing is not jewelry. While the former can be integrated into a uniform, the latter has various connotations, religious or not.

I agree that clothing isn't jewelry. But that isn't the issue. The issue is why has BA granted an exception for some employees to wear anything that has a religious connotation, and denied the same right to others.

Now, if they allow the wearing of the yarmulke, at least they are being somewhat consistent. But if that is banned, then there is no doubt that what is going on here is unequal treatment of employees based on their religious beliefs.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):I wonder if BA's uniform policy allows members of the Jewish faith to wear a yarmulke while in uniform?
Very likely. I guess you'd love to find some evil conspiracy behind this, but I think that is extremely unlikely.

No conspiracy is at play. Just simple discrimination.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
I agree that clothing isn't jewelry. But that isn't the issue. The issue is why has BA granted an exception for some employees to wear anything that has a religious connotation, and denied the same right to others.

The lady in question simply claimed that the necklace with the cross was no jewelry - which is objectively false, whatever she may want to believe.

Individual requests to overturn standing uniform regulations will usually not be successful, and this one is no exception.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
No conspiracy is at play. Just simple discrimination.

Oh my. Cry me a river!  Yeah sure

She is in no way disadvantaged for believing what she does - she just has to adhere to the uniform regulations she had signed to adhere to in the first place.
 
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
How do you get to a conclusion that they allow scarves and turbans because of safety concerns?

I didn't. I stated that turbans are a safety item because they are.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Individual requests to overturn standing uniform regulations will usually not be successful, and this one is no exception.

I agree. The question is, of course, why BA has the regulation in place in the first place.

Nice to see that simple discrimination isn't a big deal to you, however.  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
scamp
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Jpax (Reply 30):
And how were you a 'former airline emloyee' at 13-15 years old?

1) don't believe everything you read, Sparky;

2) there's a vast difference between a cross and a turban;

3) someone in the world will always be offended about something, life's a bitch;

4) if the company you work for says you can't wear it, find another job and get over it. there are plenty of people out there for 99.9% of the jobs in the world that will gladly take your place.
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
halls120
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Scamp (Reply 47):
2) there's a vast difference between a cross and a turban;

What is the "vast difference"? I'm asking in all seriousness.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
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RE: Unequal Treatment For Christians?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 46):
Nice to see that simple discrimination isn't a big deal to you, however.

She isn't "discriminated" by the standing (and by herself accepted!!) uniform regulations preventing her from wearing jewelry. It's a uniform!

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