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clickhappy
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Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:38 am

Two Israeli warplanes and a German navy vessel have clashed off the Lebanese coast, the Defense Ministry in Berlin said on Wednesday without giving further details.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2605423

Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:39 am

I'd hope that the communications between the german navy and israeli airforce would be a lot better than this. They should have radio contact and not have to resort firing over a boats bow and deploying flares.

Dominic
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Pope
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

Nothing in this story says that Israeli jets fired "on" a German vessel. The story says that Israeli jets fired two shots. Given the reputation of the Israeli air force, I think it is a safe assumption to say that if they'd want to have hit the vessel, they would have. (I'm no jet pilot but I don't think they tell you to buzz right over a ship you're shooting at - it seems to me to be a great way to get shot down).

Instead of creating a whole thread inviting speculation from people who know absolutely nothing about what actually happen when Germans themselves say is still under investigation why don't you wait until the facts are established?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:47 am

The problem with the modern media is that they are usually two quick to break a story first, and have it be incomplete or inaccurate in nature as this one is. All it is saying is that an incident did happen.

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

I would only imagine a case of mistaken identity which seems unlikely to me. That very excuse or justification has been used by the Israelis before, a foreign naval vessal in international water who Israel is at peace with being fired upon. Thankfully nobody was hurt and this will probably be chalked up to no harm, no foul.
 
7474ever
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 1):
I'd hope that the communications between the german navy and israeli airforce would be a lot better than this. They should have radio contact and not have to resort firing over a boats bow and deploying flares.

Exactly. According to the israeli TV (channel 2) there was no shooting but deploying flares. The article said that a helicopter was departing a german navy vessel heading south without identifying itself. A radio connection indeed needed.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:48 am

What is speculation? The ABC story says

a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

So, you are wrong, the story does say they fired, did you read it? It is in the second paragraph.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:50 am

7474ever - Thanks for the info. I have a friend (journalist) onboard one of the UN ships, not sure which one, and got a little anxious when I read this story!

edit for typo

[Edited 2006-10-25 20:50:43]
 
Pope
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
So, you are wrong, the story does say they fired, did you read it? It is in the second paragraph.

Nobody said that the jets didn't fire. But there is a world of difference between firing ON something and simply firing.

Quote:
Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

Had the jets wanted to hit the ship, they would have.

You are just trying to stir up sh*t based on a small story where the details are completely unknown. If the German navy believed that the State of Israel fired on its vessel with hostile intent, I assure you this would be front page news.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:01 am

well, it is front page news, in Germany

Israelische Jets geben Schüsse über deutschem Schiff ab

http://www.spiegel.de/

They do say "over" as opposed to "at" which is good.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:16 am

Shouldn´t this thread be in Military aviation?
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NoUFO
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 11):
They do say "over" as opposed to "at" which is good.

According to Spiegel Online, the two shots were fired "in the air" not at the vessel.
I support the right to arm bears
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:52 am

Here is another story, seems to be a lot of confusion over what happened. Anyone else in Germany or Israel have info?

Israel denied a German newspaper report on Wednesday that two of its air force planes had fired twice as they flew over a German navy vessel patrolling the Lebanon coast.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061025/ts_nm/germany_israel_incident_dc
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:08 am

I'd assume Germany's defence Ministry would not light-heartetly admit such an incident taking place if it hadn't happened...
Germany is rather hush-hush when it come to Israel for the known reasons.
So if they take the step to report an incident has happened -I'd rather believe Berlin than Jerusalem -who claims nothing happened.
I' would not over-emphasize the incident -not worth to create a mess because of this.But it indicates the relation between the two counties is not as smooth as it appeared.
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PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 5):
a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

I wonder who that "junior" German defense minister is, we only have one and after about a year in office he may still be a rookie, but never a junior. He was on TV news just now and he said that he spoke on the phone with his Israeli counterpart and they deal with the problem. Looks indeed that some flares were deployed and two shots fired, but over, not at the ships.

The German defense minister has a much bigger problem on hand today anyhow, I don't see the relations with Israel touched in any way.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:21 am

The German newspaper FAZ reporting about this incident also reports
this:

Quote:
The French commander of the UN troops in Lebanon (UNIFIL), Alain Pellegrini, expressed himself meanwhile "seriously anxious" over the increasing number of Israeli military flights over Lebanon. Nearly all units of the UN troops in Lebanon would have complained about breaches of the air space in their areas, said Pellegrini according to an UN speaker on Wednesday. Alone nine of such flights were observed on one day.

http://www.faz.net/s/RubB30ABD11B91F...2285645~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Perhaps the Israelis checkout how far they can go.

Axel

[Edited 2006-10-25 23:23:39]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
rolfen
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
Any idea why Israeli warplanes would fire on a UN vessel off the coast of Lebannon?

Hezbollah were firing missiles from there?
rolf
 
RAPCON
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:37 am

That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF. Either that or his command will have a very bad conclusion (and his ship may end up at the bottom).
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cairo
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:57 am

The Israeli jets knew exactly what they were doing and the exact identity of the ships and its helicopters - they are using the finest technology the American taxpayer can buy them, for free. Whatever happened, it was no accident.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Cairo


http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/agtr5-k.htm
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:57 pm

just proves that this area is the one area were German forces should not be. Hopefully that French blockhead commander of Unifil is relieved of duty pretty soon and his successor will be a more responsible person.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
The problem with the modern media is that they are usually two quick to break a story first, and have it be incomplete or inaccurate in nature as this one is.

Sounds like Civ-Av, SNAFU . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
N1120A
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:03 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 17):
That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF. Either that or his command will have a very bad conclusion (and his ship may end up at the bottom).

You probably defend the idiots who shot down Iran Air 655
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
rolfen
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 17):
That German Captain ought to consider the situation in which his ship has been put and perhaps ought to consider better communications with the IDF

Communication might not be enought. A couple of monthes ago, IDF repeatedly fired at a UN bunker, until it finally destroyed it, killing the 4 UN soldiers hiding inside. Between the first shot and the collapse of the bunker, many phone calls had been given to the IDF, and several hours passed, and each time the UN was assured that the bombing would stop.
The next day, kofi annan qualified the bombing and the killing as intentional. You cant blame him for using this term, this incident was so avoidable that you could only ask yourself if they didnt do it on purpose.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
just proves that this area is the one area were German forces should not be.

Well, some people need the German to be there...
rolf
 
7474ever
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 18):
they are using the finest technology the American taxpayer can buy them, for free.

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/egypt.htm
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
Nothing in this story says that Israeli jets fired "on" a German vessel. The story says that Israeli jets fired two shots. Given the reputation of the Israeli air force, I think it is a safe assumption to say that if they'd want to have hit the vessel, they would have. (I'm no jet pilot but I don't think they tell you to buzz right over a ship you're shooting at - it seems to me to be a great way to get shot down).

-
The Israelis in the meantime have clearly stated that their jets did NOT fire AT the ship and had no desire to hit it in any way. Possibly a "practical joke" ?
-
General Alain Pelegrini of the French expeditionary UN-corps has commented that the many flights of the Israeli Air Force into and over Lebanon in his view are a clear violation of both the ceasefire and the sovereignty of Lebanon and not acceptable in the longer run. The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Israelis.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:32 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Nobody said that the jets didn't fire.

--

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 4):
According to the israeli TV (channel 2) there was no shooting but deploying flares.

so that "7474ever" is "nobody" ?  wave 

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 9):
Shouldn�t this thread be in Military aviation?

No, as it is about the German Fleet, and NOT about aviation, and it is politics.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 25):
General Alain Pelegrini of the French expeditionary UN-corps has commented that the many flights of the Israeli Air Force into and over Lebanon in his view are a clear violation of both the ceasefire and the sovereignty of Lebanon and not acceptable in the longer run. The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Is

It is about time that this his French clown is retired from his post. If they try shooting down Israeli jets the "fun" will rather be on the Israeli side.

AFAIK Israel can take care of itself. The "expeditionary" force is there to protect Lebanon from hezbollah and prevent the real agressor Hezbollah, which is de facto an Iranian and Syrian puppet, from re-arming.

So far. M. Pelegrini has not done his homework.
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MDorBust
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Israelis.

So much for the neutrality of the UN force.. Idiots.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
If they try shooting down Israeli jets the "fun" will rather be on the Israeli side.

they presumably will take proper care NOT to shoot down any jets, but to shoot "at them" so that they realize no longer to be desired.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
The "expeditionary" force is there to protect Lebanon from hezbollah and prevent

to prevent Hizbullah from re-establishing the previous military activities and to support the Lebanese government from taking over control also in the border-region, to protect Israel from attacks by Hizbullah, but of course also to protect Lebanon from Israel. And these overflying activities of the Israeli Air Force are absolutely UNacceptable and in the longer term not to be tolerated. Whether the commanders of the German Navy are to obey to Israeli commands and report all their movements to the Israelis, is up to your federal government in Berlin to decide.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Israelis.
--
So much for the neutrality of the UN force..

-
Neutrality means to be there for BOTH sides. The UN force is NOT an auxiliary force of the Israeli armed forces, and these overflights are a violation of the ceasefire and inacceptable.
-
 
rolfen
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:07 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
So much for the neutrality of the UN force.. Idiots.

I presume it's a deal between italy and lebanon that has nothing to do with the UN force.
Anyway in the light of what happened lately, lebanon could use some AA missiles.
rolf
 
7474ever
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
The Italians therefore have started to deliver anti-aircraft missiles to the Lebanese, so that they can take steps to make such flying exercises a bit less comfortable for the Israelis.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
Neutrality means to be there for BOTH sides. The UN force is NOT an auxiliary force of the Israeli armed forces,

...but - according to your opinion - of the lebanese.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 29):
lebanon could use some AA missiles.

here two reports about such matters :
-
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3388
--
According to DEBKAfile�s Rome sources, prime minister Romano Prodi has instructed his defense ministry to negotiate with the Fouad Siniora government the quick sale of an Aster 15 battery, the only Western surface-to-air missile with an active guidance system capable of last-minute corrections of targeting at the moment of interception. As a joint Franco-Italian product, the sale also needed - and obtained - approval from French president Jacques Chirac. Our sources report the Aster 15 will be accompanied by Italian instructors to guide Lebanese troops in their use. On Oct. 13, Lebanese chief of staff General Michel Suleiman informed his officers posted on the Lebanese-Israeli border of the Beirut government�s �indefatigable efforts� to obtain anti-air missiles to hit patrolling Israeli aircraft. He added that very soon, Lebanon would also acquire long-range anti-tank rockets to prevent Israeli tanks again crossing the border. Commanders of the French UNIFIL contingent have threatened to fire on Israeli warplanes in Lebanese skies .
--
--
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_En...t=Security&loid=8.0.348655228&par=
--
Lebanese prime minister Fuad Siniora said on Wednesday the Lebanese army may receive weapons and vehicles from Italy. Siniora made the announcement during a joint news conference with Italian prime minister Romano Prodi in Beirut. "We spoke about help for the Lebanese army...a subject which has been raised not just with Italy but also with other countries," Siniora said. In terms of the UN-brokered ceasfire that ended a month long conflict with Israel in August, Lebanon is obliged to deploy its regular army in the country's south, the traditional stronghold of the Hezbollah militias who fought against Israel. Some 60,000 Lebanese troops have been deployed in southern Lebanon since the ceasefire was declared. Italy has deployed some 2,500 troops in southern Lebanon the largest contribution by a single nation to an expanded UN peacekeeping force which is overseeing the ceasefire. On Sunday Lebanon's defence minister Elisa al-Murr suggested Lebanon would seek military aid from Italy, France, Germany and Britain, especially anti-tank missiles, armoured vehicles and helicopters. Recent news reports say that Saud Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are willing to provide assistance to the Lebanese military. According to some observers, Lebanon would have to spend some 800 million dollars in order to modernise its military. The United States has recently pledged some 42 million dollars in military aid to Lebanon.
-
 
rolfen
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):

AFAIK Israel can take care of itself. The "expeditionary" force is there to protect Lebanon from hezbollah and prevent the real agressor Hezbollah, which is de facto an Iranian and Syrian puppet, from re-arming.

Lebanese civilians also need someone to protect them from israeli attacks which could spark a new conflict.
rolf
 
Sabena332
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:33 pm

The radio station WDR 2 just reported the following in the 1pm news:

A helicopter took off from the ship, the pilot of the heli didn't inform anyone that he took off and he didn't switch on the "identification system" of the heli, then two Israeli F-16s flew towards the heli but turned off after they saw the German national emblems on the heli, furthermore they fired off some infrared stuff but no real ammo.

Clearly the fault of the German pilot, he didn't inform anyone that he took off.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:40 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):

they presumably will take proper care NOT to shoot down any jets, but to shoot "at them

are you naive? Do you think an Israeli pilot, with all the training he has, would wait till his plane is really hit?

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 32):
Lebanese civilians also need someone to protect them from israeli attacks which could spark a new conflict.

Lebanese people need someone ro protect them from that State within the State, called Hezbollah. As long as you have this cancer in your country, you have trouble in your country.
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7474ever
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:41 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 25):
Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Nobody said that the jets didn't fire.

--

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 4):
According to the israeli TV (channel 2) there was no shooting but deploying flares.

so that "7474ever" is "nobody" ?

You have some reading problems ? Do you see "Israeli TV" above my username ? I was saying what was reported. Besides, there was no shooting but deploying flares. Exactly what I said yesterday.

What is this "two shots in the air" story anyway ? Combat jets don't react like John Wayne. Two shots of what ?
 
7474ever
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
-I'd rather believe Berlin than Jerusalem -who claims nothing happened.

Well, in this case you bet on the wrong horse.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
You probably defend the idiots who shot down Iran Air 655

Dude, the morning of the shootdown I was about 10-12nm away from the VINCENNES, involved in a gunfight with a bunch of IRGC Boghammers (we martyred 3 whole crews to Allah), and my CO repeatedly told the VINCENNES to stay away from the fray as we were maneuvering very aggressively while engaging the Iranians.

VINCENNES, which was commanded by an absolute hot-head of a CO, disregarded our request, got the ok from the DESRON CO to join the engagement, and quickly strayed into an environment without having full situational awareness of what was going on.

No need to rehash what the end result was.

Leason Learned: Don't go into the hot zone without knowing was going on. The German captain should take that to heart.

P.S. Unlike VINCENNES with her super-duper AEGIS system, our ship had a lowly AN/SPS-40, yet we properly identified the Iranian A300 as a civilian a/c. That's the difference between a well-trained, well-led crew, and one that is not.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
they presumably will take proper care NOT to shoot down any jets, but to shoot "at them

are you naive? Do you think an Israeli pilot, with all the training he has, would wait till his plane is really hit?

What the Israeli pilots with whatever training they did have are to do is not the question. THE point is that their overflying of Lebanese territory is NOT acceptable. And if your so-called "navy" enjoys to be overflown and to become a practical joke, be happy. This Israelis overflying business of Lebanon needs to be stopped. And those Israeli pilots can revert their training exercises to a different place.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 32):
A helicopter took off from the ship, the pilot of the heli didn't inform anyone that he took off and he didn't switch on the "identification system" of the heli, then two Israeli F-16s flew towards the heli but turned off after they saw the German national emblems on the heli, furthermore they fired off some infrared stuff but no real ammo.

Clearly the fault of the German pilot, he didn't inform anyone that he took off.

Hmm, Did the 2 Israeli fighters call the German ship when they approached? sounds like it is the fault of the F-16 pilots. If the ship was in international waters they are free to do what they want.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 36):
Unlike VINCENNES with her super-duper AEGIS system, our ship had a lowly AN/SPS-40, yet we properly identified the Iranian A300 as a civilian a/c. That's the difference between a well-trained, well-led crew, and one that is not.

Sounds like when we were off Vacapes doing a shoot-ex with 2 Aegis CG's and a Kidd class(IIRC). none of they could lock on and fire at a Talos drone, so at the last minute, we were cleared to fire, did a "impossible" over-the-shoulder shot and got a skin-to-skin kill. not bad for a lowly FFG.

Which DD were you on?

Dan in Jupiter
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 35):
Well, in this case you bet on the wrong horse.

..like claims from the MOD ,that they never used Phosphorus bombs in Lebanon....????
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 38):
If the ship was in international waters they are free to do what they want.

-
The Israelis claim that the helicopter approached the Lebanese-Israeli sea-border. If so, it would have indeed been the mistake of the German side. I on the basis of earlier reports was of the opinion that it was off the Lebanese coastline and therefore opposed to them contacting the Israelis. But if, as the Israelis say, the helicopter approached their territorial waters, my idea would have been wrong in this respect.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
The Israelis claim that the helicopter approached the Lebanese-Israeli sea-border. If so, it would have indeed been the mistake of the German side.

If this is the case then the Germans would not be at fault until they actually crossed the border. From the above claim it sounds as though the Germans where still in neutral (or lebanese) territory. Or is there a exclusion zone around the border for all parties involved. If so, would that not apply to the Israeli F16s alike?
Attamottamotta!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 41):
From the above claim it sounds as though the Germans where still in neutral (or lebanese) territory. Or is there a exclusion zone around the border for all parties involved. If so, would that not apply to the Israeli F16s alike?

THIS exactly is the question. I had a look into various reports but nobody is clear about it. WAS the helicopter ON the border-line or even across it ? or still clearly inside Lebanese territorial waters ? Generally, in war-zones, if you get very close to such a border to get into touch with the other side however IS advisable. Well, those in charge possibly still are investigating. Hope it becomes clearer tomorrow.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
is NOT acceptable. And if your so-called "navy" enjoys to be overflown and to become a practical joke, be happy

the "practical joke", my friend, is that the Navy (and it is not only German but there are Danish ships as well, 6 nations altogether in that fleet) have been taken for a joy ride because they can control vessels inside Lebanese waters only when the Lebanese agree.

Now, that is like the cops can search the Mafia warehouse only if the Godfather agrees to the search.

This whole exercise is rubbish from the beginning to the end, Hezbollah is re-arming and laiughing their @sses off, together with their Iranian and Lebanese friends.

The Israelis know that and that is why they are controlling the air space over Lebanon, can't blame them, these reconnaissance flights are essential.

Chamberlain is alive and kicking. Disgusting.

.
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windshear
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
Nothing in this story says that Israeli jets fired "on" a German vessel. The story says that Israeli jets fired two shots. Given the reputation of the Israeli air force, I think it is a safe assumption to say that if they'd want to have hit the vessel, they would have. (I'm no jet pilot but I don't think they tell you to buzz right over a ship you're shooting at - it seems to me to be a great way to get shot down).

Instead of creating a whole thread inviting speculation from people who know absolutely nothing about what actually happen when Germans themselves say is still under investigation why don't you wait until the facts are established?

You said it!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):

Nice to see you quote Debka Big grin


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 25):
It is about time that this his French clown is retired from his post. If they try shooting down Israeli jets the "fun" will rather be on the Israeli side.

AFAIK Israel can take care of itself. The "expeditionary" force is there to protect Lebanon from hezbollah and prevent the real agressor Hezbollah, which is de facto an Iranian and Syrian puppet, from re-arming.

So far. M. Pelegrini has not done his homework.

Well written!

Boaz.

[Edited 2006-10-26 21:34:54]
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NoUFO
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
the "practical joke", my friend, is that the Navy (and it is not only German but there are Danish ships as well, 6 nations altogether in that fleet) have been taken for a joy ride because they can control vessels inside Lebanese waters only when the Lebanese agree.

No, this is what Lebanese politicians wanted, but in the end it's up to the (German) commander. There are Lebanese officials onboard the frigate, but they have no veto power.
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PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 45):
No, this is what Lebanese politicians wanted, but in the end it's up to the (German) commander. There are Lebanese officials onboard the frigate, but they have no veto power.

I wish you are right, read tomorrow morning's papers.
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NoUFO
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 46):
I wish you are right, read tomorrow morning's papers.

Seems you're right:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/archiv/27.10.2006/2860278.asp

What a joke!
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LY744
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:18 am

To summarize this thread and the various claims presented herein: Don't let facts get in the way of a good theory!


LY744.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Israeli Jets Fire At German Navy Vessel

Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
controlling the air space over Lebanon, can't blame them, these reconnaissance flights are essential.

NO, these "reconnaissance flights" not only are NOT essential, they need to be stopped, reduced at least. These flights are illegal in any way.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 44):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
--
Nice to see you quote Debka

-
I do NOT like their opinions, but their reporting is quite exact. That they put down ALL Shi'ites in Lebanon, people with Amal and decided secularists alike as "terrorists" is disgusting and goes into blunt propaganda, but the facts they report are ok.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 47):
I wish you are right, read tomorrow morning's papers.
---
Seems you're right:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/archiv/27.10.2006/2860278.asp
---
What a joke!

-
You have to read the "small print". It is mentioned "if .... 6-mile zone" which means less than 10 kms. And this means that the German warships CAN control ships outside of that zone without the Lebanese having much say in that.

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