speedbird747BA
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Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:51 am

This is how I see it. The reason there is all this secular violence in Iraq is Saddam (a Sunni) kept his foot on the heads of the majority Shi'ites. All the government leaders and military commanders were Sunni. Now that the Shi'ites are liberated, they are going back after the Sunnis, who are still trying to keep their foot in the Shi'ites. This being the Middle East, of course it has led to violence. Now, America (and inevitably, Bush) slots into this in the middle. So, we have Sunnis going after Shi'ites and Americans, and Shi'ites going after Sunnis and Americans.

And, now, we need a way to fix this. Here is where things get heated. I suggest that we let the Iraqi security forces do the job, and we bug out in a year, a year and a half. All that time, we get the Iraqis ready. Then, we pull out in areas, Baghdad being last. I hope we can trust the Iraqis, but that is up to them. It all hinges on whether Iraqis think about themselves or their country.

Let the Discussion Begin!!!

Cheers,
Kyle

[Edited 2006-11-02 22:59:32]
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
DrDeke
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RE: Mess In Iraq Not Bush's Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
secular violence

How exactly is it secular violence when the groups who are fighting are religious sects and they are fighting because of religious differences?

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Mess In Iraq Not Bush's Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 1):
How exactly is it secular violence when the groups who are fighting are religious sects and they are fighting because of religious differences?

The Sunni/Shi'ite difference started way back, not long after Mohammed. It was a difference between Caliphates, one wanted one, they got it, the others were mad, they broke apart, and now that is the difference.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
777236ER
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RE: Mess In Iraq Not Bush's Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
secular violence

Do you mean 'sectarian violence'?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
bushpilot
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RE: Mess In Iraq Not Bush's Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:00 am

Its a novel idea that probably will lead straight to more killing, continued civil war, of which we need to wake up and come to terms that Iraq has an ongoing civil war. But this will lead to genocide.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
I suggest that we let the Iraqi security forces do the job

The Iraqi forces are corrupt from the top. Iraq PM Al-Maliki is supported by Sadr, and it is Sadr's Mahdi Militia that is perpotrating most of this violence. It is more or less being condoned by the Prime Minister of Iraq. He is not interested in stopping it, and doesnt want the Americans to leave.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
All that time, we get the Iraqis ready

We have been working towards that for the last 2 years, I dont think they will be at all seriously ready in 5 years.

We need to get the hell out. It is a matter of if we leave it worse than when we showed up. We need to give Iraqis real jobs, that right now are either not getting done or are being done very expensively by western contractors. We are in an unwinnable situation.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Mess In Iraq Not Bush's Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:02 am

Sorry, I can't defend Bush on this one. This is ULTIMATELY his fault. He is the CINC, he has, in that light, placed too much faith in that dictatorial overbearing ego-manical geezer he has heading the DoD, and refused to listen to anyone else regarding Iraq.

Iraq's initial invasion was and will remain textbook. A Classic kick ass, take names, ground assault spearheaded by the 7th Cav . . . . absolutely textbook.

The post invasion activity will go down in history in the textbooks as well. As "HOW TO FUCK UP A PERFECTLY GOOD INVASION".

Now because of this non-plan, this no frackin' idea what to do now, do it on the cheap, use only 1 Division in the attack, mentality of the DoD - read that Donald Rumsfeld - we have religious violence that is killing THOUSANDS. I said it before, I say it again - and damnit, I hate retaking old terrain - it's the RELIGION factor. Remove that, and these people would sit down and discuss things for a bit rather than blowing the shit out of each other . . . .

IT'S RELIGION PEOPLE!!!
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
sectarian

AHA!!!!!!!!!!! i knew i was using the wrong word..........

Thanks

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

I want some of whatever it is you're smokin'.................
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:05 am

I think we should merge Iraq with Iran and call the new country "Irate". 

-Delta767300ER

[Edited 2006-11-02 23:05:58]
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
The Iraqi forces are corrupt from the top

Yes.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 4):
He is not interested in stopping it,

Sounds a bit like Saddam, eh?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Now because of this non-plan, this no frackin' idea what to do now, do it on the cheap, use only 1 Division in the attack, mentality of the DoD - read that Donald Rumsfeld - we have religious violence that is killing THOUSANDS. I said it before, I say it again - and damnit, I hate retaking old terrain - it's the RELIGION factor. Remove that, and these people would sit down and discuss things for a bit rather than blowing the shit out of each other . . . .

IT'S RELIGION PEOPLE!!!

Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Delta767300ER (Reply 8):
I think we should merge Iraq with Iran and call the new country "Irate".

Hehehehehehe......clever idea!

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):

Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

What the hell man? Whatever happened to the concept of Presidential accountability in this country? Stop trying to paint Bush like Congress (throwing the blame anywhere else).

Realize the power the President has, and with the title of being 'the most powerful man in the world' and the prestige also comes something else: The buck stops here.

This whole thread is utterly ridiculous.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:12 am

Speedbird747BA brings up an interesting point though. There is NOTHING else the US/World can do for them. It should be up the the Iraqi people to decide to end the violence. We've done all we can to help them, now we should pull out.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 12):
Whatever happened to the concept of Presidential accountability in this country? Stop trying to paint Bush like Congress

Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 13):

Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war.

What the hell are you talking about?

Obviously my point flew right over your head.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
bushpilot
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):
Exaclty. Not Bush's fault. The reason it was cheap is because of lack of funds.

No this is his fault utterly, completely and his fault alone. He is the CIC, he made the decision to go, he has made the decision to stay, he is the final say on policy in Iraq. He nor anyone has anyone to blame for this mess but the dipshit living at 1600 Penn. Ave.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 9):
Sounds a bit like Saddam, eh?

Yeah, except the Iraqi people were better off under him. Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.

Don't bet the farm on that . . . .

I'd say he did his fair share . . . and so did his family . . . you know, those two find upstanding Iraqi son's of his.

Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
Yeah, except the Iraqi people were better off under him. Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.

Add on to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam's_Iraq

Yup, Saddam was a real sweet heart of a man, much better than that evil super tyrant of President Bush.  Yeah sure
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 13):
Excuse me, but Bush CUT taxes. He didnt raise them, even though we were fighting a war

Yes, all his rich friends are getting a windfall-WHILE WE'RE FIGHTING A WAR! The only people Bush has asked to sacrifice during a time of national crisis, and flighting wars in two nations, and against terrorism, are the soldiers and their families.

And you want to applaude him for that?

And trying to let Bush off the hook for what's going on just shows how removed from reality you are. If you'll let him get away for this, you'd let him off the hook for anything.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
bushpilot
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
Don't be too quick to dismiss Saddam's ability to CONTROL to sectarian violence that has reared it's ugly head through force. He was indeed a killer. And the ONLY reason he 'maintained control' was the fact that those that opposed him disappeared . . . . violently.

I certainly see your point old pal, the point I was trying to make is that the average Iraqi has it no better now, than before we showed up, there was a time they did, and there was a time they had hope things would be better soon. But I think we lost that trust from the average Iraqi. Saddam no doubt was/is a bad guy. I hope they chop his head off in public. But the Iraqi security forces and the coalition forces are not in control in many places in Baghdad. The situation is deteriorating rapidly, and unless something dramatic happens we wont be able to tip the scales back in our favor of rebuilding Iraq and leaving it as a bastion of peace, liberty, and democracy in the middle east as an example to the rest of the middle east and the world of how great America is. I wish that were the case, but I have serious doubts if this can realistically be accomplished.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.

Neither is Bush, or the US Armed forces. The Iraqi people seem to be killing a lot of each other every day, but it is less usually than 100.
I love ASO!
 
jaysit
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:54 am

Iraq isn't the GOP's fault.

Space aliens came down, occupied the heads of the President and all his men (and women), told them to invade Iraq and create total and utter chaos.

Put the blame where it belongs.

On E.T.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 20):

Your right, I blame Bush for creating this situation, I blame Al-Maliki for condoning it, and I blame Sadr for perpetrating it. But the person on the American side of the equation that the responsibility this falls on his none other than George W. Bush.
 
travelin man
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:13 am

Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Ha! That's a good one! You DO realize that a GOP President, supported by a GOP-controlled Congress, authorized military action in a country that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 9/11 or any of the other reasons they gave for going in.

This President and Cheney and Rumsfeld CREATED the morrass that is Iraq today.

But yeah, who could have predicted all the sectarian violence that would occur? Oh, wait a minute, MANY MANY MANY people predicted it! They just weren't listened to.

I guess when you have a President that was never in the military, supported by a Vice President that was never in the military, supported by a Defense Secretary that was never in the military, this is the type of military "strategy" that you end up with.

Stay the course!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:29 am

Another point in blamng Bush and the GOP.

It should have been painfully obvious to them, before going into Iraq that the potential of what happened in Yugoslavia could happen in Iraq: a nation, with ages-old hatreds that were suppressed only by the rule of a strong-armed dictator. And, as when Tito died in Yugoslavia, it should have been apparent that unless there was enough security in the nation, the same fate could befall Iraq.

So, what do we do? We dismantle the ENTIRE security infrastructure of the nation; we don't send in nearly enough troops for a successful and relatively peaceful occupation/transition, and now, look where we stand-by our own military's estimation, Iraq stands on the edge of chaos.

So, yes, it is Bush's fault-his, and his team's fault.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SlamClick
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:36 am

It would be hard to keep a straight face while suggesting that G.W. Bush is not responsible for the US being up to its mustache in Iraq's problems, but the killing and mayhem themselves are unarguably inherent in middle east culture. It is beyond the power of the western world to stop it until, to paraphrase Golda Meir: They love their own children more than they hate [others]

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 15):
Saddam is an asshole, but he wasnt killing 100 people a day.

Saddam is universally blamed for at least four hundred thousand Iraqi deaths in the 8668 days he was in power. That is more than 46 per day WITH NO WAR to blame it on. Those people died because Saddam, and the people Saddam hand-picked for power LIKED KILLING and no other reason.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
when you have a President that was never in the military

You mean the Texas Air National Guard doesnt count? The war in Vietnam was raging, they had to protect Corpus Christi from VCs wearing black pajamas in sanpans.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
All that time, we get the Iraqis ready.

Don't fool your self about that one. The US has invested a huge amount of resources training and equiping Iraqi military and security forces.

There are more than 400,000 Iraqis that have been through fairly comprehensive training. Many of the first echelon units have been through multiple training cycles. Additionally, the US military has established an enormous logistical support network to provide Iraqi security units with all the beans-n-bullets they could ever want.

The current failure of the Iraqi military and police has nothing to do with training and preparation. It has everything to do with a complete lack of will, solidarity, and sense of nationalism. These people are simply not interested in risking their lives for "Iraq".

They might be willing to fight for their religious sect, but it is painfully obvious they have no intention of dying for their country or thier fellow citizens.

That's fine I suppose, but if they don't give a shit about Iraq, why should we?

It's time to bring our men and women home and let the Iraqi chips fall where ever it is the Iraqis decide they should.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 27):
Additionally, the US military has established an enormous logistical support network to provide Iraqi security units with all the beans-n-bullets they could ever want.

And the Iraqi insurgents thank the US military for that!

"Thousands of U.S. weapons in Iraq missing
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q/2006-10-29-missing-weapons_x.htm


As for the thread, it is really hilarious how the Republicans are now trying to blame the Iraqis for the mess the Bush Administration has created. They seem to have some sort of highly contagious collective amnesia regarding a whole range of issues related to Iraq. First it was the reason why Iraq needed to be invaded urgently, then it was Osama bin Laden who suddenly seemed to fade out of Bush's scope. And now it is the sectarian violence which they want us to believe no one could have foreseen. Completely in line with the Bush Administration over the past 6 years, the Republicans and the GOP fail to take responsability for anything.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
DrDeke
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 17):
Yup, Saddam was a real sweet heart of a man, much better than that evil super tyrant of President Bush.

In case you haven't noticed, President Bush is hardly in control of affairs in Iraq, is he? (As much as I'm sure he wishes he were.)

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 28):
Republicans are now trying to blame the Iraqis for the mess the Bush Administration has created.

Is it your statement that the reciprocal hatred of Sunni / Shia is the creation of the Bush administration?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 30):
Is it your statement that the reciprocal hatred of Sunni / Shia is the creation of the Bush administration?

No, but the unleashing of it in the here and now IS the creation of Bush's ill-thought out war.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 30):
Is it your statement that the reciprocal hatred of Sunni / Shia is the creation of the Bush administration?

No, it is my statement that they did not foresee the foreseeable. The whole sectarian violence issue was predicted long before the first US soldier set foot in Iraq in March 2003, yet they downplayed that all.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 21):
Space aliens came down, occupied the heads of the President and all his men (and women), told them to invade Iraq and create total and utter chaos.

Put the blame where it belongs.

On E.T.

HEHEHEHEHE.....good one!  thumbsup 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
are the soldiers and their families.

And you want to applaude him for that?

I AM IN A SOLDIERS FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!! don't lecture me on what I have given up.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
You DO realize that a GOP President, supported by a GOP-controlled Congress, authorized military action in a country that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 9/11 or any of the other reasons they gave for going in.

Wat a minute! is any of this was related to my thread?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
I guess when you have a President that was never in the military, supported by a Vice President that was never in the military, supported by a Defense Secretary that was never in the military, this is the type of military "strategy" that you end up with.

Yes because Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld are making the military strategies.......wrong, they give the goal, the military comes up with the strategy and executes it.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 27):
Don't fool your self about that one. The US has invested a huge amount of resources training and equiping Iraqi military and security forces.

Hence-

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Thread starter):
I hope we can trust the Iraqis, but that is up to them.



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 28):
As for the thread, it is really hilarious how the Republicans are now trying to blame the Iraqis for the mess the Bush Administration has created.

WHOA!!!!! I'm not blamin anything on the Iraqis (other than they have no national pride!)


Guys- The entire idea of this thread was to point out that the reason for sectarian violence in Iraq (note: nothing to do with the American invasion, which was ordered by Bush) isn't in fact the GOP's fault (they dont say Hey, you Sunni!! go kill some shi'ites.....), it is in fact the religious split. I'm going beyond the normal, day-to-day commentary on the Iraq war with Americans involved. Dig deep here, the roots of this thread are buried deep in History, and with enough conversation and information, I'm hoping that you guys will uncover the real answer here. I'll give you a starting point - the Sasanid Empire, the Umayyad Caliphate, and the Abbasid Caliphate. These are the beginnings of Islam, the beginnings of the sectarian violence, now raging in Iraq. Really, break the conversation away from how Bush effed everything up.

I admit, maybe the title and original thread werent clear, but this should clarify things.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
I AM IN A SOLDIERS FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!! don't lecture me on what I have given up.

I wasn't lecturing you, buddy. I was lecturing this president you're so in love with. This guy is only asking families like yours to sacrifice, while his rich friends get these huge tax windafalls. Now, in your shoes, I'd be pissed, but I guess your blind faith in Bush overrides all else.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 23):
You DO realize that a GOP President, supported by a GOP-controlled Congress, authorized military action in a country that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 9/11 or any of the other reasons they gave for going in.

Wat a minute! is any of this was related to my thread?

It is PRECISELY what your thread is about. You say Bush is not at fault, and the above quote clearly states the opposite of your ill-informed, totally removed from reality belief.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:06 am

Uh-oh......my last post may have opened up some flaming on me......

So, I'll go ahead and give you guys the history lesson.

"The story id told that in the early days of Iskam, at the time of the Prophet Muhammed's last pilgrimage to Mecca in 630, a dispute over distribution of booty arose between his daughters husband, Ali, who was Muhammed's first cousin, and some troops Ali commanded. Muhammed quelld the grumbling and later on the same journey, at a place called Ghadir al-Khumm, drew his followers together, took Alis hand and declared:' Am I not nearer to the believers than their own selves? Whomever I am nearest to, so likewis is Ali. O God, be the friend of him who is his friend, and the foe of him who is foe.'

Written narrationa of Muhammeds praise of ALi date to well over a century after the event. By that time, Ali had served as leader of Muhammeds community for a brief time and then been defeated in a civil war and assassinated( oh, how ironic.....). Subsequently, his son Hussein was killed with his family while trying to claimleadership as the Prophets grandson.

Out of these events grew a severe division in the Islamic community: some believers thought the religious leadership rightfully belonged to Ali and his descendants; others felt that the cmmunity should choose its leadership mor broadly. The members of the former group were called Shi'ites, from the Arabic term Shi'at Ali, meaning "Party of Ali". The members of the latter were called Sunnis, followers of of the sunna, or 'tradition' of the community. Sunnis and Shi'ites agreed that Muhammed commended Ali at Ghadir al-Khumm. But the Sunnis thought his remarks related only to the distribution of booty, and the Shi'ites understood them to be Muhammeds formal and public declarations of Ali's special and elevated osition and hence of his right to rule."

And there, ladies and gentlemen, it is. Over friggin booty........!

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
This guy is only asking families like yours to sacrifice, while his rich friends get these huge tax windafalls. Now, in your shoes, I'd be pissed, but I guess your blind faith in Bush overrides all else.

I guess after seeing all the good that has come from Iraq, I realize what was worth sacrificing. I don't have blind faith in Bush. I think he has effed up veterans benefits. What I have faith in, although, not blind, is that the Iraqis will eventually realize freedom is worth fighting for.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
It is PRECISELY what your thread is about. You say Bush is not at fault, and the above quote clearly states the opposite of your ill-informed, totally removed from reality belief.

No it is not, as my last 2(!) posts have said, quite clearly.

Cheers,
Kyle

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 34):
buddy.

I'm touched. How poignant! (no, Im being serious here.....)
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
SlamClick
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
No, but the unleashing of it in the here and now IS the creation of Bush's ill-thought out war

Ahh, so if it wern't for that nasty old Bush you could ignore the screams rising up from the dungeons of Baghdad, the vultures circling the Kurdish cities of the north. Most commendable.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 31):
the unleashing of it in the here and now IS the creation of Bush's ill-thought out war.

I believe I already said that.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
It would be hard to keep a straight face while suggesting that G.W. Bush is not responsible for the US being up to its mustache in Iraq's problems,

...here. But ignore that too, by all means.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
TNNH
Posts: 217
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:58 am

iraq is iraq's fault. these damn people dont know to get along with each other.

like all social pheonomenons. this will get old. it'll end. it has to. like airplane hijackings, bellbottoms, typwewriters, and trench warfare, this Islamic terrorism suicide bombing bullshit will eventually end. you heard it here first.

TNNH
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
Ahh, so if it wern't for that nasty old Bush you could ignore the screams rising up from the dungeons of Baghdad, the vultures circling the Kurdish cities of the north. Most commendable.

While I agree with you, I am also a bit exasperated with where you are taking this. Please, non-partisan, and dont involve Bush

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 32):
it is my statement that they did not foresee the foreseeable.

Is that why Europe proposes to do diddly squat about Darfur? Better the tyrants who impose at least one version of order on the region. After all, who but Europe to credit a tyrant for making the trains run on time.

Don't like the situation in Iraq?
Don't like Bush?

Go fix it yourself.
Unless you are all mouth.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
Go fix it yourself.

Im sure that Flacon, Schoneorama, and the other extremely political entities do indeed vote.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 40):
Please, non-partisan, and dont involve Bush

In a thread you created about how Iraq is not Bush's fault, you are now asking not to involve Bush.

w......t......f?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 43):
In a thread you created about how Iraq is not Bush's fault, you are now asking not to involve Bush.

HOW IRAQ IS NOT BUSH"S FAULT!!!!!???????!?!?! youre missing the ENTIRE point!!!! PLEASE REFER - - - -

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
I'm going beyond the normal, day-to-day commentary on the Iraq war with Americans involved.



Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
Really, break the conversation away from how Bush effed everything up.

FOLLOWED BY - - - -

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
but this should clarify things.

Please, please, please pay attention to what I say.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:14 pm

The title, if expanded, would have read - How the sectarian viloence in Iraq isnt really the GOPs fault as so many are so quick to assume.

Long title though

Cheers,
Kyle
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davestanKSAN
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:15 pm

Well according to Republican US House of Representatives Leader John Boehner, Donald Rumsfield isn't to blame about Iraq, but its the Generals in Iraq who deserved to be blamed.  Embarrassment



Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1680
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 36):
No it is not, as my last 2(!) posts have said, quite clearly.

I think your points on the origin of the Shia-Sunni split are largely irrelevant in the present context. While those distinctions are theologically interesting perhaps, they are not a proximate cause of the current conflict between the two groups.

The affiliations we see in Iraq, and elsewhere in the ME for that matter, are good old-fashoned power politics at this point. The identity and the origin may be religious, but the manifestation is simple tribalism.

It may as well be the Crips and the Bloods or the Dead Rabbits and the Natives. It is gang warfare. The motivation is power and control, not obscure 6th century theological squabbles.
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jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4007
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 44):

HOW IRAQ IS NOT BUSH"S FAULT!!!!!???????!?!?! youre missing the ENTIRE point!!!! PLEASE REFER - - - -

Ha, ok. If i'm missing the entire point, then you're missing the entire thread..

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 45):
The title, if expanded, would have read - How the sectarian viloence in Iraq isnt really the GOPs fault as so many are so quick to assume.

What about your original title then?

You can say all you want about the Muslim factions you want, but isn't the real issue how the hell the administration couldn't have seen that coming?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Iraq Isn't Really The GOPs Fault

Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 47):
While those distinctions are theologically interesting perhaps, they are not a proximate cause of the current conflict between the two groups.

In my opinion, they are entirely proximate. If there was only Islam an no division, then there really wouldnt be sectarian violence. Saddam wouldnt have oppressed 80% for the heck of it. those 80% wouldnt need to get revenge for the heck of it. think broadly here, but all in all an excellent point.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?

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