AerospaceFan
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Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:18 am

Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?

I'll cite one example of fodder for their thoughts:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
That Borat finds the streak of poison in American life mitigates the potential perception of "Borat" as some Muslim-bashing movie for a self-satisfied Western audience. However anti-Semitic, misogynistic or homophobic Borat might be, he is usually able to find some American to agree with him. In fact, Borat's bigotry allows the people around him to let their hair down and chime in. Then the trap snaps shut and they're on 3,000 screens talking, for example, about how in America the minorities have all the advantages.

This, from a review published today in -- where else? San Francisco.

I could find other examples, but I've got better things to do, and I'll just say it seems to me that the left, and liberals, are willing to go to various places in their criticism of Americans that the right simply doesn't.

But wait! There's more! Don't take this as a classic liberal bash-fest. It's not.

Here's what I think about liberalism: Without liberalism, America itself wouldn't be possible.

There. I said it. Satisfied?

In a sense, I'm clearly a liberal, because I'm a beneficiary of the liberal American way of thinking that allowed our Founding Fathers to trash the hoary old conservatives way back in the late 1700's.

So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.

If the above is true, I have only one question:

For the love of Mike, why the heck can't liberals make their way of thinking work?

There's no sense in which one should "love" racism, or prejudice, or any manner of negative things that most Americans -- liberals or conservatives -- would despise. Most Americans would find hatred of Barak Obama or Harold Ford, Jr., merely because they're black, absolutely disgusting and unacceptable. That's just one example.

But liberals of today don't seem to know how to harness the common ground that the great Ronald Reagan was able to do so well. Instead, they make snide remarks about "flyover country" and horrible "streaks" in American life, and I think that reading stuff like the article I cited above is what makes a lot of ordinary people -- like me -- think: What the fudge? Ain't that condescending?

And it's unfortunate that it does appear that way.

I think that conservatism has gone a bit stale, frankly speaking. I've been let down in the last few years by Mr. Bush in some ways, mainly domestic. That's one reason I haven't been sending in donations the way I used to.

But I look at the relationship that liberals seem to have with much of America and I think to myself, "This is what liberals think? This is what they are concerned about?"

Liberals simply haven't been able to get their message across, and what messages they have, have looked bad, and they make America look bad, besides.

What America needs, perhaps, is another Ronald Reagan, but this time of the left.

Are you shocked to read my words saying that this is so?

If so, doesn't this something that the left, and liberals, should really think about?

________________________

Source of quote: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...?f=/c/a/2006/11/03/DDGRCM45V31.DTL

[Edited 2006-11-03 18:28:43]
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jaysit
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:00 am

Snore.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Jetsgo
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:06 am

I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.


Chris
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:12 am

The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is the answer?
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jaysit
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:19 am

Eat more chocolate.

Drink more red wine.

Have more sweaty sex.

Tell conservatives obsessed with God, gays and guns to sod off.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.

I wouldn't worry about it. It happens to the best of us.

To summarise, AeroSpocrates is upset because a review in a liberal publication, of a movie about an English actor pretending to be a bigotted, anti-semitic Kazakh, has revealed that this actor has managed to persuade some slack-jawed Red-state Americans on camera to reveal how bigotted and anti-semitic THEY are, by means of the cunning strategy of appearing to sympathise with them in their beliefs. This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.

Have I got that right ? Its a bit like translating Klingon, even if you understand the individual words, the meaning can escape you completely.
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B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is a liberal, AF?
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5):
This, AeroSpocrates concludes, reveals how liberals hate true, red-blooded Americans, because by bringing to light these un-p.c. beliefs and exposing them to just ridicule, they reveal a flaw in the otherwise unblemished and roseate magnificence that is Amuurricuh the BeeeYOOteefool.

Actually, the question should be how the liberals' message can be reformed so that it stands a good chance of being heard again.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?

Is John Kerry the soul of liberalism, or isn't liberalism far more than Kerry, or Pelosi?
What's fair is fair.
 
jaysit
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box

Why thank you!

But we need no help. You see, we've been thinking outside the box for at least about 2,000 years now.

If the world had been left to the auspices of the flat earth society, we'd still be the equivalent of cave men in a Gary Larson cartoon.

Incidentally, most liberals the world over haven't even heard of John Kerry or Nancy Pelosi. If there's anyone who needs to crawl out of a box, it's you.
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halls120
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 6):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is a liberal, AF?

I can't wait to hear the answer to this one.

I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand.

I don't believe you are trying to do that at all. Seems to me you are just trying to stir more angry debate and at the same time, up your post count.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Aren't you interested in at least trying to do just that?

But what is "liberalism" ? It's not like "communism" with a written manifesto. Liberalism, if it is anything, is the antithesis of reactionary, unyielding resistance to change, it permits rather than prevents the adaptation of society to new mores that will always being changing (despite what conservatives want) as people work to improve the society in which they live.

Liberalism has no fixed agenda, nor any fixed set of beliefs - instead it is the acceptance and accomodation of all beliefs, based on the notion that the more inclusive and accomodating a society is, the greater the ability of that society to absorb and adapt what is good from the various beliefs of its citizens, rather than imposing a narrow and exclusive set of values in the belief that ONLY these values have any validity, and that any others only weaken and divide society - this narrow and exclusive set of values is what defines conservatism.

Liberalism has no "message" except to accept and value all messages, and to try and extract the best from each. If that isn't acceptible to 50% of Americans, then 50% of Americans are going to get marginalised and passed over. A free society will always change and adapt, this is an unstoppable process - the best hope is that this change and adaptation can be directed towards improving society as a whole.
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

I don't. I wish we could all have our own political parties.

But the sad fact of reality is there are two parties, because people tend to rally toward one or the other pole of extremes -- there's that whole "dichotomy" thing that some seemed not to understand.

In a universe of two political parties, each party has elements that should do their best to effect reform within the party itself. That's the hand that's been played.

You want to try to elect an H. Ross Perot, hey, be my guest. Just remember what happened last time.
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HALFA
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
The question is what liberals can do to make their message more palatable to the half of the country, or more, who aren't liberals.

What is the answer?

Perhaps liberal leaders can snort meth and have sex with gay prostitutes, that will get their message out. Our maybe they can become hopelessly addicted to prescription drugs, get caught, say they're sorry, and then continue on with their radio show as if nothing ever happened.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box -- how to reform liberalism so that half of America, or more, doesn't dismiss it out of hand.

That's very big of you, so nice to know you care about liberals. Come next Tuesday, we'll see if half of America or more dismisses it out of hand.

Me thinks someone's been watching too much O'Reilly Factor.

Aloha,
HALFA
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting HALFA (Reply 12):
That's very big of you, so nice to know you care about liberals. Come next Tuesday, we'll see if half of America or more dismisses it out of hand.

Should one always have this "f*ck you" attitude toward people who try to extend a hand across the political aisle?

No wonder politics is as it is now. What a pity.
What's fair is fair.
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Believe it or not, I'm trying to get you guys to think outside the box

In other words, you want more people to think like you. But the problem is that some people, believe it or not, think that you frequently do not have the answer. Sorry.

Texan
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B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):

I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 14):
In other words, you want more people to think like you.

Nope. If I did, I wouldn't ask for people's considered opinions. I post here because I'm interested in why politics is such a f*ckfest where everyone is out to get one another, number one, and, number two, how the f*ck we can get out of this mess we're in, where left hates right and Joe hates Mary.

All I'm getting from the left is, "You Bush lover. You bad. I hate you."

Come on, guys! You don't even KNOW who I am.

I want to see some thinking that demonstrates that the left and liberalism are capable of doing something other than:

1. Bashing the President;

2. Promoting gay rights;

3. Being angry;

4. Loving animals;

5. Loving the environment; and/or,

6. Shutting people up who disagree with them 'cause they're morons and/or pulled the wings off flies as a kid.

For God's sake, I love animals and the environment too. Don't mean I should vote for liberals. Ain't enough, yo.

If you guys really want to get power -- and I'm not talking about a bare majority here, but real power to do stuff -- rather than feel good about bashing ordinary folks like me, well, then I suggest you think about whether your thinking might need a bit of intelligence.

To tell you the truth, I went to Berkeley. I know how liberals think. But in the corporate world, I know how conservatives think, too. And, guess what? Neither way of thinking is necessarily the right kind for the problems we face.

And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?

If conservatives were out of power, I'd be interested in the answer to the same question, except at conservatives.

Stop being so damn suspicious. From what you all are writing, you'd think I was some kind of White House operative or something. Far be that from the case.

[Edited 2006-11-03 20:01:34]
What's fair is fair.
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
Nope. If I did, I wouldn't ask for people's considered opinions.

If you respected other people's opinions a little more, maybe people wouldn't be so hostile toward you.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
And so I ask a simple question: What do you have to make the rest of America love you?

I'll repeat B777-700's question here and ask you what your definition of a liberal is. Do you consider liberals to be encompassed mostly by the Democratic Party? Do you consider anybody to the left of John McCain a liberal? Or do you think that Bill Clinton was a moderate and not truly liberal?

Your original question cannot be answered fully by any person in the world. Know why? Because not all people think alike. Not all conservatives think alike, not all liberals think alike, not all Republicans, Democrats, or independents. In fact, very few people think alike. So what you are getting with any group of people is a collection of good and bad traits. You are getting compassion and you are getting anger. You'll see jokers and you'll see people who are completely serious all the time. You'll see people who like to do the work and people who just take the credit.

People do not fall nice and neatly into categories, AF. Some social liberal are economic conservatives. Some social conservatives are economic liberals. Most people take their views on specific subjects from life experiences and don't really care where or if they fit into a political party. They know what works for them, what seems to work for others, and what doesn't work for them, what doesn't seem to work for others.

If you give me a precise definition of what you consider a liberal, and if I fall precisely into that category, I can tell you what I and others who may think similarly to me have to offer. If you want to know what I specifically think regardless of where I fit, ask. If you want to know where I think the Democrats fit in, ask. Same with the Republicans. As parties, not as individuals.

The questions you ask cannot be truthfully answered by anybody. Because nobody can answer then truthfully and completely, that gives you the ability to say that liberals have no ideas. But if one doesn't ask the right question, the people being questioned can never respond with anything close to what the questioner is looking for.

Texan
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Falcon84
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?

Because conservatives think that they're God's chosen ones, and that no one in the U.S. can be more God-fearing or patriotic than they are. They have such a superiority complex about themselves that they can't help castigating anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 2):
I read and re-read, and still don't understand the purpose of your thread.

Like I've said with AF, you have to read between the lines. In this one he's saying this: "Liberals, you know you're not as good of Americans as conservatives, so accept it, and come up with a gimmick that makes you more accepted in the American/conservative world."

He'll deny it, but that's what he's saying.

And what's ironic is that, with a seemngly large liberal victory at hand in the election, he's still trying to deny reality that not everyone thinks as far to the right as he does.
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halls120
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):


I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

He's going to keep ignoring you for awhile, and then start accusing you of twisting his posts out of context, if his past practice with me is any indication.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):


I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

He's going to keep ignoring you for awhile, and then start accusing you of twisting his posts out of context, if his past practice with me is any indication.

'

I think here's what he thinks a liberal is:

-Someone who questions the government too much, even though it's our Constitutional right.

-We are against God because we don't think gays should be made 2nd class citizens.

-We're against the soldiers, because we don't support the political decision to send them in to an ill-thought out war.

-We must have been for Saddam because we're against the invasion of Iraq.

-We're socialist because we're disgusted when the richest get huge windfall tax cuts, while those who can barely get by every day are crapped on by the government.

I'm sure I can think of more later.
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AirCop
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 9):
I'd ask a follow on question. AF, why do you think it necessary to try to pigeonhole people into nice, neat categories?

 checkmark  And he is always right..

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
But in the corporate world, I know how conservatives think, too.

Really, you work in the corporate world yet you seem to spend most of your time posting lack of a better word werid threads 24/7.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
I ask again: What is a liberal, AF?

Answer the question AF!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:41 am

I already answered the "what is a liberal" question.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.
What's fair is fair.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):

As usual with you, that answers absolutely nothng. Answer the dag gone question, man.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
As usual with you, that answers absolutely nothng. Answer the dag gone question, man.

Asked and answered. What don't you understand about it?
What's fair is fair.
 
Boeing744
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
-Someone who questions the government too much, even though it's our Constitutional right.

-We are against God because we don't think gays should be made 2nd class citizens.

-We're against the soldiers, because we don't support the political decision to send them in to an ill-thought out war.

-We must have been for Saddam because we're against the invasion of Iraq.

-We're socialist because we're disgusted when the richest get huge windfall tax cuts, while those who can barely get by every day are crapped on by the government.

I'm sure I can think of more later.



May I add that we are also unpatriotic and anti-american in general to not support the political decision of the Iraq war.


(Obviously I am not patriotic to the US already though, because I am Canadian).

[Edited 2006-11-04 01:22:12]

[Edited 2006-11-04 01:23:31]
 
halls120
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
I already answered the "what is a liberal" question.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):So, the sense of liberalism in which you're looking for things that are wrong, and you hope to solve them... well, that has its own dynamic. And, just the way that Jefferson and Co. bashed a few heads together, figuratively speaking, to form our Republic, I believe you could argue that liberals of today are simply trying to accomplish the same thing -- to build our country toward something greater.

No, you didn't. You told us what liberals want to do. Not what a liberal "is."
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
No, you didn't. You told us what liberals want to do. Not what a liberal "is."

Unlike some, I don't necessarily dwell on personalities. I look at people for what they want to do. It's not important to me "what a liberal is" for the purpose of this thread. And, if you look at the topic itself, it's about the concept of liberalism, not how soft and cuddly, or hard and prickly, liberals may or may not be.

Illustration: LBJ was liberal in his views, but he as a sonofabitch in many ways. He'd summon people to an audience while he was "on the throne", just to humiliate them and get them to know that he was boss. And yet he got Congress to pass some admirable civil rights bills.

Who gives a crap who LBJ was in this sense? That's more or less gossip, for the purposes of this discussion.

[Edited 2006-11-04 01:35:30]
What's fair is fair.
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 28):
Unlike some, I don't dwell on personalities. I look at people for what they want to do.

 rotfl 

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 28):

If you look at the topic itself, it's about the concept of liberalism, not how soft and cuddly, or hard and prickly, liberals may or may not be.



Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
But I look at the relationship that liberals seem to have with much of America and I think to myself, "This is what liberals think? This is what they are concerned about?"



Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
they make snide remarks about "flyover country" and horrible "streaks" in American life,



Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
For the love of Mike, why the heck can't liberals make their way of thinking work?

It seems like you are indeed arguing about how "soft and cuddly or hard and prickly liberals may or may not be." And you also seem to be saying you know what "liberals" think and about their ideas, but then you come back and say that "liberals" don't know what they are talking about and are not focusing on what they should be focusing on.

The great thing about "liberals" is that they disagree on all topics and argue about them with each other and other non-liberals to try and fix the ideas and make them as palatable as possible. Now, speaking completely honestly, the reason that "liberal" ideas do not sound great is because they are not creative enough with naming their initiatives. Seriously, "The Patriot Act" was a stroke of genius. Not because it contains good ideas; I think many of the initiatives are horrible. But if you vote against it, you are un-patriotic.

Liberals need better speech writers. It is all about being able to make the bill impossible to vote against. Not because of the contents but because of the name. Would you vote against the "Save Our Children Act?" If you did, you're a despicable person who wants our children to grow up by themselves, shooting each other, getting sick, and dying in the streets. Why do you want to kill our children, Senator?

Rename universal healthcare the "Protect Americans Act" and you'll see a helluva lot more people supporting it. Because if you don't you'll have to explain why you want to leave Americans more vulnerable to attacks and death. We have a war going on and all Americans are at risk. We are still at risk to terrorism that we cannot predict, and when it strikes, the government needs to be prepared. But that's not good enough. We need to be prepared before the terror strikes. We need to prevent it from happening, to protect the lives of Americans. If we don't, then the terrorists win.

So there you have it. In order to do what you seem to want, liberals would have to resort to fear tactics. If you are afraid of something, you want the government to protect you from it.

Enjoy.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
halls120
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 28):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):
No, you didn't. You told us what liberals want to do. Not what a liberal "is."
Unlike some, I don't necessarily dwell on personalities. I look at people for what they want to do. It's not important to me "what a liberal is" for the purpose of this thread.

In other words, you can't - or won't - answer the question.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
In other words, you can't - or won't - answer the question.

I don't need to.

Here's the deal: If I think a question is leading and it basically has no original relevance to what I've said, I'm not going to feel bound to answer it, because it doesn't fit with the predicates of this discussion.

If the topic had been, "Liberals Have a Love-Hate Relationship with the U.S.", then the point could be made that I should define "liberals" by who they are. But that's a different topic. The topic is liberalism, not liberals.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):In other words, you can't - or won't - answer the question.
I don't need to.

Here's the deal: If I think a question is leading and it basically has no original relevance to what I've said, I'm not going to feel bound to answer it, because it doesn't fit with the predicates of this discussion.

Spin, Spin, Spin.

 rotfl 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
The topic is liberalism, not liberals.

Well, I don't see it that way, but I partially took your bait and attempted to answer your question in the latter part of reply 29.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
Liberalism has no fixed agenda, nor any fixed set of beliefs - instead it is the acceptance and accomodation of all beliefs, based on the notion that the more inclusive and accomodating a society is, the greater the ability...

....blah, blah, blah. I am not a conservative, but you are clearly full of it.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
instead it is the acceptance and accomodation of all beliefs

No society has this and none ever will. Do you believe that France accepts all beliefs? It doesn't take a genious to bring up the recent issues to deflate that notion. Or for that matter, on a philosophical and ethical level, does a society need to accept all ideas for it to be progressive or culturaly liberal? I don't believe so. Should we accept and allow child pornographers and pedophiles to practice their beliefs? Should a society allow heroin and crack cocaine use amongst all citizens-men or children? Just because someone believes something does not mean that it should be accepted. It should be listened to and examined first.

The most important role of a democratic government is clearly to centralize and legistlate(whether it is on a federal or localized level) acceptable cultural and legal actions. A liberal is one who desires a progressive and free society with the realization of necessary cultural and social restrictions.

People who believe that a government should accept all beliefs are anarchists.

Let's also not forget that traditionally, although perhaps not in the last six years, conservatives desired less government control over every day lives.

Traditionally liberals sought to impose laws through a centralized government.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
Liberalism has no "message" except to accept and value all messages, and to try and extract the best from each. If that isn't acceptible to 50% of Americans, then 50% of Americans are going to get marginalised and passed over. A free society will always change and adapt, this is an unstoppable process - the best hope is that this change and adaptation can be directed towards improving society as a whole.

This, to me, is a much clearer explanation and I agree 100%. We clearly will not accept all beliefs, but we, whether liberal or conservative, should examine other's and our own beliefs to make rational and unbiased decisions to nurture progressive society.

However, I do not believe that this concept is completely confined or esoteric to liberalism alone.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 29):
"The Patriot Act" was a stroke of genius. Not because it contains good ideas; I think many of the initiatives are horrible. But if you vote against it, you are un-patriotic.

Perfect example. May I add the 'Clear Skies Initiative', which in effect, gave carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment. It's all in the packaging.

Really, if we talking serious now, a big problem the left has is, dare I say it, 'dumbing down' their agenda. The right are masters at making cute catch phrases that fit on a bumper sticker.

I know this is going to be taken wrong, but the right appeals to simple people, which there are a lot of in America. Note I'm not saying everyone who's in the GOP, and I'm not saying anyone on this board, so don't take that personally. These are people that need to be told what to believe, instead of actually thinking about it.

The left over thinks things, to a fault. They also don't fight back, which appeals to no one.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
Jalto27R
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

I could find other examples, but I've got better things to do,

Hahaha. No you don't. Don't lie!
 
baroque
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
Tell conservatives obsessed with God, gays and guns to sod off.

Can we vote on that -please!

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Is John Kerry the soul of liberalism, or isn't liberalism far more than Kerry, or Pelosi?

Was that a serious question?

Interesting that it was proposed that it was suggested what Liberalism needed was a Ronnie R. I do realise that he has been sanctified and elevated to who knows what Pantheon, but I would hope that Liberalism could come up with someone who knew what he was talking about - substance not just style. Not that everyone finds Hollywood B grade to be a great style either.

Now I have burned my bridges!
 
jaysit
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:42 am

JGPH1A - your reply in post # 5 is absolutely bloody brilliant.

Touche.

And Higha Five, as Borat would say.

Incidentally, I saw the movie last night. All the theaters showing the film were packed. And justifiably so. The film had me laughing so hard, it hurt.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Why are conservatives able to make liberals look like goony America-haters?

Easy, because they respond like the following!

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
Snore.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Show me a liberal and I will show you that deep down they are THE most intolerant persons to ideas they just can stand to hear. And like Jaysit, they sleep through all the debate. Closed ears. Closed minds.

Those sleeping pills are wonderful are they not? After all, it seems to be the drug of choice in liberal circles.

 rotfl 
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
767Lover
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 35):
Perfect example. May I add the 'Clear Skies Initiative', which in effect, gave carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment. It's all in the packaging.

This is an example of the kind of hyperbole that makes Liberals ridiculed and despised.

I'm speaking objectively, not from the perspective of any political affiliation.

If liberals want to be taken seriously, they need to speak objectively and not paint a broad, exaggerated brush on the issues.
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The

Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 39):
Show me a liberal and I will show you that deep down they are THE most intolerant persons to ideas they just can stand to hear.

Ok, I'll step up to the plate. I'll play the part of a 'liberal', (whatever that means) show me how intolerant I am.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 40):
This is an example of the kind of hyperbole that makes Liberals ridiculed and despised.

I'm speaking objectively, not from the perspective of any political affiliation.

If liberals want to be taken seriously, they need to speak objectively and not paint a broad, exaggerated brush on the issues.

I'm painting w/ a broad brush here, but it's ok to label anyone who doesn't agree with you on this issue a 'liberal'. I see, that's not a double standard or anything.  Wink

So 'liberals' are despised for reading past the title of subject?

In this case, you would be wrong. The Clear Skies Initiative was named as such to disguise relaxing a lot of the regulations that were in place to keep big businesses from polluting. Not hyperbole, fact. 'Clear Skies Initiative' sounds like a good thing, right?

That example doesn't paint anyone with a broad brush, and quite frankly, you make no sense here because I said far worse things in that post that could be categorized as 'painting with a broad brush'.

I noticed you didn't take issue with anything I said about the right appealing to simple people.  Wink
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 40):
This is an example of the kind of hyperbole that makes Liberals ridiculed and despised.

I'm speaking objectively, not from the perspective of any political affiliation.

If liberals want to be taken seriously, they need to speak objectively and not paint a broad, exaggerated brush on the issues.

First off, it would be wonderful if all politicians did this. None of them do. The "Clear Skies Act of 2003" ended up weakening federal legislation already on the books to cut emissions and dangerous gases out of our air. It did indeed call for a reduction in mercury output. Unfortunately, the amount of mercury output allowed is five times what was previously allowed under original Clean Air Act provisions (original called for 5 tons of mercury output per year; new initiative calls for 26 tons per year). The original Clean Air Act provisions called for sulfur dioxide to be cut to 2 million tons per year by 2012. The new Act calls for SO2 emissions to be cut to 4.5 million tons per year by 2010. The restrictions for nitrogen oxide emissions are similarly relaxed: from 1.25 million tons in the original to 2.1 million tons in the revised. In addition, power plants that are currently operating are exempted from the new standards and are not required to install scrubbers or other new technology that would help prevent more pollutants from being released into our air.

There is the objective handling of the situation. The Clean Air Act of 2003 amended the original Clean Air Act. The revised version alleviates pollution restrictions and allows for more pollutants to reach our lungs.

EPA Figures
More EPA figures
White House Press Release
Full text of the Clear Skies Act of 2003

Or, if you wanted to know how the programs will work, you could just look to Texas. Houston is now the most polluted city in the US after Governor Bush's voluntary environmental health initiative failed to get any takers from the oil and gas producers, nor did the power plants sign up to reduce emissions. Of course, the power plants did not have to because every single power plant in Texas was exempted from the stricter voluntary regulations. The Texas initiative also exempted the cement plants and medical and tire incinerators in Midlothian, Texas, which are thought to comprise upwards of 50% of Dallas' smog problems.

So, there are some basic facts about Bush's environmental initiatives. Those facts are reported by the EPA, the act itself, and the Texas information was gleaned from way past articles of The Dallas Morning News.

The titles of acts are window dressing, pure and simple. The problem the Democrats have is coming up with names that make their initiatives sound sexy, that make people stop and say, "We need to do that!" The Republicans figured out the power of words a long time ago. The Democrats are still learning.

Why do you hate our children? (To get this, go back and read reply 29)

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
So 'liberals' are despised for reading past the title of subject?

I wouldn't mind your reading beyond the title, but I'd like to have your opinion on the actual topic indicated in the title first. One should do what is simple before one does what is complex. There is no shortcut to advanced thinking.

It would be as if one tried to do algebra without having learned addition.

Before one "goes beyond" something, one should demonstrate that one has at least a rudimentary grasp of the basics. Otherwise, why should anyone think that one has the knowledge necessary to deal with advanced topics?
What's fair is fair.
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 43):

I wouldn't mind your reading beyond the title, but I'd like to have your opinion on the actual topic indicated in the title first. One should do what is simple before one does what is complex. There is no shortcut to advanced thinking.



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 43):
Before one "goes beyond" something, one should demonstrate that one has at least a rudimentary grasp of the basics. Otherwise, why should anyone think that one has the knowledge necessary to deal with advanced topics?

One should go back and read reply 35.  Wink

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
Actually, the question should be how the liberals' message can be reformed so that it stands a good chance of being heard again.



Quoting B777-700 (Reply 35):
Really, if we talking serious now, a big problem the left has is, dare I say it, 'dumbing down' their agenda. The right are masters at making cute catch phrases that fit on a bumper sticker.

I know this is going to be taken wrong, but the right appeals to simple people, which there are a lot of in America. Note I'm not saying everyone who's in the GOP, and I'm not saying anyone on this board, so don't take that personally. These are people that need to be told what to believe, instead of actually thinking about it.

The left over thinks things, to a fault. They also don't fight back, which appeals to no one.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
767Lover
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
I noticed you didn't take issue with anything I said about the right appealing to simple people.

I didn't see that statement.

Quoting Texan (Reply 42):
The original Clean Air Act provisions called for sulfur dioxide to be cut to 2 million tons per year by 2012. The new Act calls for SO2 emissions to be cut to 4.5 million tons per year by 2010. The restrictions for nitrogen oxide emissions are similarly relaxed: from 1.25 million tons in the original to 2.1 million tons in the revised. In addition, power plants that are currently operating are exempted from the new standards and are not required to install scrubbers or other new technology that would help prevent more pollutants from being released into our air.

Thanks for making my point. There is a big difference between reducing minimum requirements and "giving carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment." as the poster stated.

There are other facts that have to be noted, including the fact that companies ARE in fact installing scrubbers, low-NOx burners and other technologies to power plants. In fact, there aren't enough contractors to do the work, at present, because they are in such demand.

Also, there is nothing that says states can't implement stricter regs, as Maryland did with its own Healthy Air Act, which calls for larger reductions in NOx, SO2 and mercury than the federal regs, in a shorter timeframe.
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
I didn't see that statement

Really? It was right below what you did see...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 35):
Perfect example. May I add the 'Clear Skies Initiative', which in effect, gave carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment. It's all in the packaging.

Really, if we talking serious now, a big problem the left has is, dare I say it, 'dumbing down' their agenda. The right are masters at making cute catch phrases that fit on a bumper sticker.

I know this is going to be taken wrong, but the right appeals to simple people, which there are a lot of in America. Note I'm not saying everyone who's in the GOP, and I'm not saying anyone on this board, so don't take that personally. These are people that need to be told what to believe, instead of actually thinking about it.

The left over thinks things, to a fault. They also don't fight back, which appeals to no one.

So you're one of those people that doesn't read past what you want to see. You are the type of person that the right wing is looking for with their window dressing titles. Thanks for proving our point!  Smile
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
767Lover
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 46):
Really? It was right below what you did see...

Okay. Sorry. I was glancing. However, it doesn't change my point about hyperbole. Good try, though.
 
B777-700
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 47):

Okay. Sorry. I was glancing.

Exactly.  Wink
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
texan
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RE: Liberalism: A Love-hate Relationship With The U.S.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 45):
Thanks for making my point. There is a big difference between reducing minimum requirements and "giving carte blanche to big businesses to destroy the environment." as the poster stated.

Welcome. Here's the point, though. Many people would not understand this. The Act does, in effect, give power plants carte blanche to destroy the environment. It is minimally stricter on other businesses, but the Act has so many loopholes I could fly a C-130 through them.

Plus, if you think that "liberals" are the only ones who use hyperbole and exaggerations, you are grossly mistaken. Again, everything that is occurring is occurring because of language. The Republicans have done a better job at manipulating language to their advantage than the Democrats have. Simple as that.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."

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