AerospaceFan
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President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:12 am

President Bush is scheduled to make a brief speech in about two hours concerning the decision of an Iraqi government tribunal to condemn former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to death.

I think that the President should say something like the following:

"Good afternoon, and thank you for coming.

"I received news today that the Iraqi people, through a duly constituted court of justice, have issued a verdict in the first trial of the former dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein. The court has spoken, and the verdict is death.

"I congratulate the court and the people of Iraq for this fair and courageous decision.

"The destiny of Iraq is to pursue the benefits of freedom and determine its own course, and to mete out justice to those who would threaten it. America is proud to have served and to continue to serve these interests on behalf of the Iraqi people.

"Saddam has been judged by a court of law, and he will face justice.

"Saddam's trial was the first such trial, but it will not be the last. Today, there remain other enemies of freedom and the Iraqi people who are causing havoc in that country. But they, too, will be brought to justice.

"America is committed to its missions, and its mission in Iraq is to help its people in their hour of need. The last few years have not been easy. There have been setbacks. But we are making progress. Because of the trial, the Iraqi people know what Saddam and his regime did. The Iraqi people will look to the trial as an example of how a free country works to pursue justice, protect freedom, and secure the peace.

"There will be many more difficult days ahead, but I am convinced that Iraq will achieve the goals we all want. The fight for justice and freedom is not easy. The people of Iraq have won a victory. And I think there will be many more victories ahead.

"Thank you very much."

[Edited 2006-11-05 17:32:08]
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The people of Iraq have won a victory. And I think there will be many more victories ahead.

I hope he is going to list the victories of the Iraqi people.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I think that the President should say something like the following:

Sorry, but there are waaaay too many big words in that for Bush.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 1):
I hope he is going to list the victories of the Iraqi people.

Whether or not he does, freedom from tyranny would be one, I think.
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
Whether or not he does, freedom from tyranny would be one, I think.

And, so far, just as accurate as "mission accomplished" was. I dare say they WOULD like to be free of tyrants.

Pre-invasion. Saddam and his family.

Post-invasion. US Military, various Shia militias (certainly two large powerful ones, possibly more, they never tell us), Foreign fundamentalist insurgents, Sunni insurgents, all of them tyrannical in their various ways.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
And, so far, just as accurate as "mission accomplished" was. I dare say they WOULD like to be free of tyrants.

Ask the Kurds, Baroque, what they might think of those sentiments.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 4):
And, so far, just as accurate as "mission accomplished" was.

The initial, and prime, mission was to depose Saddam, and that, in fact, occurred, with lightning speed. "Regime change", remember?

[Edited 2006-11-05 17:35:27]
What's fair is fair.
 
9V
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:13 am

Found this...

 
Charger
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
President Bush is scheduled to make a brief speech

It would take him over an hour to stumble through that speach.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Sorry, but there are waaaay too many big words in that for Bush

Yeah, and he has alot of trouble with the little ones also.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Charger (Reply 7):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
Sorry, but there are waaaay too many big words in that for Bush

Yeah, and he has alot of trouble with the little ones also.

I think that in his actual speech, he used bigger words.

[Edited 2006-11-05 22:13:03]
What's fair is fair.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:15 am

Here is the text of his speech:

Quote:

THE PRESIDENT: Today, Saddam Hussein was convicted and sentenced to death by the Iraqi High Tribunal for the massacres committed by his regime in the town of Dujayl. Saddam Hussein's trial is a milestone in the Iraqi people's efforts to replace the rule of a tyrant with the rule of law -- it's a major achievement for Iraq's young democracy and its constitutional government.

During Saddam Hussein's trial, the court received evidence from 130 witnesses. The man who once struck fear in the hearts of Iraqis had to listen to free Iraqis recount the acts of torture and murder that he ordered against their families and against them. Today, the victims of this regime have received a measure of the justice which many thought would never come.

Saddam Hussein will have an automatic right to appeal his sentence; he will continue to receive the due process and the legal rights that he denied the Iraqi people. Iraq has a lot of work ahead as it builds its society that delivers equal justice and protects all its citizens. Yet history will record today's judgment as an important achievement on the path to a free and just and unified society.

The United States is proud to stand with the Iraqi people. We will continue to support Iraq's unity government as it works to bring peace to its great country. We appreciate the determination and bravery of the Iraqi security forces, who are stepping forward to defend their free nation. And we give our thanks to the men and women of America's Armed Forces, who have sacrificed so much for the cause of freedom in Iraq -- and they've sacrificed for the security of the United States. Without their courage and skill, today's verdict would not have happened. On behalf of the American people, I thank every American who wears the uniform, I thank their families -- and I thank them for their service and continued sacrifice.

Thank you very much.

He hit upon most of the points I thought he would.

Please see:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/11/20061105-1.html
What's fair is fair.
 
cedars747
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 6):
Found this...

Found that...

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
NoUFO
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 9):
He hit upon most of the points I thought he would.

I take it you plan to run for office.  Silly

Seriously, it wasn't that hard to figure what he would say, was it?
I support the right to arm bears
 
glydrflyr
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 6):
Found this..

Uh oh Somebody let Kerry write a speech, since they won't let him speak anymore?
if ya gotta crash, hit something soft and cheap!
 
walter747
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
"Thank you very much."

and then add this

"Make sure you support your local McDonald's"

a little hospitality from my neighboring state



hmmmm

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

so is something else
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 10):

Looks like a good movie

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
Falcon84
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 12):
Uh oh Somebody let Kerry write a speech, since they won't let him speak anymore?

 rotfl 

I was thinking the same thing. Good eye!
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
walter747
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 10):

that ones going in the locker.
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
TransIsland
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:02 am

bLA BLA bLA BLA... I think he should finish with "stay the course." rofl.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
VHVXB
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
The initial, and prime, mission was to depose Saddam, and that, in fact, occurred, with lightning speed. "Regime change", remember?

I thought It was too find all the WMD that he was hiding as well?????

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 10):

 rotfl 
 
itsjustme
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
President Bush is scheduled to make a brief speech in about two hours concerning the decision of an Iraqi government tribunal to condemn former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to death.

Hopefully it's being broadcast on The Comedy Channel
 
scamp
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
Whether or not he does, freedom from tyranny would be one, I think.

From ONE kind of tyranny...how much you wanna bet in ten years they are an Islamofascist "Republic" like Iran?
If it pisses off the right, I'm all for it.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Scamp (Reply 20):
From ONE kind of tyranny...how much you wanna bet in ten years they are an Islamofascist "Republic" like Iran?

What an attitude. I suppose that this means that we shouldn't interfere in places like Darfur, either, since in the future there is likely to be more of the same, and yet we see so many liberals clamoring for American intervention there.
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
The initial, and prime, mission was to depose Saddam, and that, in fact, occurred, with lightning speed. "Regime change", remember?



Quoting VHVXB (Reply 18):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
The initial, and prime, mission was to depose Saddam, and that, in fact, occurred, with lightning speed. "Regime change", remember?

I thought It was too find all the WMD that he was hiding as well?????

Well there is one response AF that I could second.

As far as regime change is concerned, are you going to guarantee that the final outcome will be preferable to Saddam? I would not care the make that bet. Mid 80s Saddam did have a reasonable education and health system to go with his tyranny. Now we have Sunni, Shia and who knows who else tyrannies and no education, health, water, electricity or oil.

The Kurds look promising, but if they become independent, then look out for a war with Turkey. That one will be to go with a war with the Shia militias while the one with the Sunnis ++ goes on unabated.

You cannot just go in for change without have something better to put in its place. So far, there are perhaps 500,000 Iraqis unable to tell you life is better, cos they are dead. Probably about 2 million have fled. So what are the benefits of regime change may I ask?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
You cannot just go in for change without have something better to put in its place.

That's a complaint you're going to have to place to Democrats and Republicans alike. Both parties here have taken the position that whatever ensues must be better than Saddam's dictatorship.

Under Saddam, there was no possibility for democracy. That had to be changed, and it was.
What's fair is fair.
 
VHVXB
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
That's a complaint you're going to have to place to Democrats and Republicans alike. Both parties here have taken the position that whatever ensues must be better than Saddam's dictatorship.

Under Saddam, there was no possibility for democracy. That had to be changed, and it was.

So it was never about the WMD's????
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 24):
So it was never about the WMD's????

That was one element of the justification for regime change.
What's fair is fair.
 
santosdumont
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
Under Saddam, there was no possibility for democracy. That had to be changed, and it was.

So if that's the litmus test, why isn't Saudi Arabia next on the regime change list?

Would that the US had put in equal effort in bringing "friendly" tyrants like Augusto Pinochet, Mobutu Sese-Seko, Ferdinand Marcos, the Duvaliers, and the Somozas to justice...
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
jaysit
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I think that the President should say something like the following:

Wow.

The fact that you sat down and wrote a prophetic speech including the greeting and the sign off only goes to show how much time you have on your hands.

Tomorrow you can write prophetic "thank you" notes from each and every Iraqi.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
bushpilot
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
Under Saddam, there was no possibility for democracy. That had to be changed, and it was.



Quoting VHVXB (Reply 24):
So it was never about the WMD's????



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
That was one element of the justification for regime change.



Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 26):
So if that's the litmus test, why isn't Saudi Arabia next on the regime change list?

This wasnt about regime change for the sake of doing the right thing, otherwise we would be in North Korea, the KSA and any number of other undemocratic countries. Its a personal vendetta. He tried ta kill ma daddy! The right and even the left can do thier best to justify the situation all they want. But it is inaccurate.
I still love how the fact the GOP jumped all over Clinton for shifting the focus of the American people from his sex scandal when he launched operation Desert Fox in Dec 98, when Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 28):
This wasnt about regime change for the sake of doing the right thing



Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 26):
So if that's the litmus test, why isn't Saudi Arabia next on the regime change list?

The United States is not a global social worker. America does what it can do to protect its national security and the security of the West. The argument that "if we did 'x', we should do 'y', contains the assumption that America is doing whatever it is solely for the good of the people involved. 'Taint necessarily so. America does things for the good of the people involved, but only if it serves the interests of national security and the security of the Western world. Perhaps it could be otherwise, but American resources aren't limitless.
What's fair is fair.
 
bushpilot
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:14 am

I am going to reply ASF just for further debate purposes.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 29):
The argument that "if we did 'x', we should do 'y', contains the assumption that America is doing whatever it is solely for the good of the people involved.

So besides doing what is right for the Iraqi people concerning the removal of Saddam, what are the American people or our allies getting out of our being in Iraq?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 29):
America does things for the good of the people involved, but only if it serves the interests of national security and the security of the Western world.

OK, so then why arent we pushing for regime change in Saudi Arabia? 15 of the 19 9-11 highjackers were Saudi. They have more oil than Saddam and thier human rights records are worse than Saddam, not to mention they are the furthest thing from democracy in the middle east.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 30):
So besides doing what is right for the Iraqi people concerning the removal of Saddam, what are the American people or our allies getting out of our being in Iraq?

The removal of Saddam was an end in and of itself, and it was accomplished. The problem has been that there are factional differences in Iraq that have made the postwar situation inordinately difficult to manage.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 30):
OK, so then why arent we pushing for regime change in Saudi Arabia?

Because Saudi Arabia hasn't continually violated binding UN Security Council resolutions, nor has it ever invaded an adjacent country, nor has it been seeking weapons of mass destruction, nor has it ever used WMD's against its own people.
What's fair is fair.
 
itsjustme
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 29):
The United States is not a global social worker.

Then why are we not only portraying ourselves as being such, but forcing our way of life on others?

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 30):

So besides doing what is right for the Iraqi people concerning the removal of Saddam, what are the American people or our allies getting out of our being in Iraq?

Other than getting dead? Hmmmm, I'll have to get back to you on that.  scratchchin 
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 32):
Then why are we not only portraying ourselves as being such, but forcing our way of life on others?

We're not. As the President said, freedom is God's gift, and not America's to bequeath.
What's fair is fair.
 
bushpilot
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Because Saudi Arabia hasn't continually violated binding UN Security Council resolutions, nor has it ever invaded an adjacent country, nor has it been seeking weapons of mass destruction, nor has it ever used WMD's against its own people.

Fair enough, but 15 of thier citizens KILLED nearly 3000 innocent American citizens. What sort of punishment have we brought forth on the KSA? I agree with you on your answer about why not them, but I think we gave them to large a get out of jail free card on that one.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
The removal of Saddam was an end in and of itself, and it was accomplished. The problem has been that there are factional differences in Iraq that have made the postwar situation inordinately difficult to manage.

So is your answer to my question that the removal of Saddam should be enough for the American people? Or am I missing it. Let me ask again just in case.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 30):
what are the American people or our allies getting out of our being in Iraq?


Edited for grammar

[Edited 2006-11-10 00:41:42]
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 34):
Fair enough, but 15 of thier citizens KILLED nearly 3000 innocent American citizens

True, but there only so much we can do as long as it isn't proved that they were agents of the Saudi government.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 34):
So did is your answer to my question that the removal of Saddam should be enough for the American people?

Basically, that was the prime mission that was accomplished. Sadly, the postwar mileu posed a new threat that I said -- in a thread that was deleted -- was insufficiently dealt with by the State Department. Now we've developed a secondary mission, which is to prevent Iraq from becoming an annex of Iran.

Success has been slow in coming on the secondary mission.

As I've said many times, the United States is not very patient when it comes to matters of war, and yet we should also consider that we still have troops in Japan even though it's been more than sixty years since the end of World War II. One difference that's been pointed out is that Japanese resistance was largely limited to outlying Pacific islands once formal articles of surrender were executed. German resistance, likewise, was minimal after the Nazis lost.

By contrast, in the case of the war in Vietnam, a very large neighbor supplied men and materiel to that country, forcing the United States to sustain extremely high casualties. (By "extremely high" I mean by comparison to wars other than wars such as the Civil War, World War I, and World War II. This is also not to be taken as a slight against casualties sustained during the Korean War, which were very significant.)

Statistically, the aftermath of the Iraqi liberation is nowhere as dangerous to American soldiers as Vietnam was, although it is of course true that even a single U.S. casualty is too many. This notwithstanding, cut-and-run Democrats such as Rep. Murtha are tired of the war and consider Iraq a lost cause. Rep. Murtha is even more radical than Rep. Pelosi in that regard. While Rep. Murtha's concern for the welfare of troops is truly laudable, the application of his policy style to the context of any war, other than the Vietnam war, would have invited disaster. Rep. Murtha, like Sen. John Kerry, are living, breathing examplars of a resurrected Vietnam syndrome.

[Edited 2006-11-10 01:15:00]
What's fair is fair.
 
solarix
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:10 am

@Cedars747... I have a full sized poster of that  Smile
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
bushpilot
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
Basically, that was the prime mission that was accomplished. Sadly, the postwar mileu posed a new threat that I said -- in a thread that was deleted -- was insufficiently dealt with by the State Department. Now we've developed a secondary mission, which is to prevent Iraq from becoming an annex of Iran.

Interesting you dont mention WMDs or Democracy in that entire paragraph.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
As I've said many times, the United States is not very patient when it comes to matters of war

We shouldnt need to be patient. We have the best military in the world. We spend trillions on equipment and training. You blamed the state department in the earlier paragraph, but now it is a war problem. Which is it, the diplomacy end or the military end?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
we should also consider that we still have troops in Japan even though it's been more than sixty years since the end of World War II.

Apples & Oranges my friend, and I think you know the shallowness of that argument. The bases and deployment of personel in Japan, Korea Germany etc are not a result of ongoing war, they were spoils of war and in place to defend areas of interest to us. They are throwbacks to previous wars where our military was forward deployed in anticipation of a communist threat. One could again argue that the Saudis failed us in not supporting our invasion of Iraq. Or we should have taken thier advice and not done it in the first place. We had forward deployed troops there for such an event as needed. When we have really needed the Saudis have turned thier backs on us.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
Statistically, the aftermath of the Iraqi liberation is nowhere as dangerous to American soldiers as Vietnam was

Comparing casualty rates to a more bloody war 35 years ago, doesnt justify our current costs in lives and materiel one bit to me in the current situation.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
This notwithstanding, cut-and-run Democrats such as Rep. Murtha are tired of the war and consider Iraq a lost cause. Rep. Murtha is even more radical than Rep. Pelosi in that regard. While Rep. Murtha's concern for the welfare of troops is truly laudable, the application of his policy style to the context of any war, other than the Vietnam war, would have invited disaster. Rep. Murtha, like Sen. John Kerry, are living, breathing examplars of a resurrected Vietnam syndrome.

I would say the exact opposite. These men were soldiers on the ground there, and so was McCain. McCain doesnt like this war, and he knows personally that it is unwinnable. But he has to support it for political reasons.
The Vietnam syndrome that is really in question is that the ones who were there fighting were being pushed into battle by people who had never tasted battle themselves see the same thing happening to thier peers then and now. They see the futility of it and it isnt worth another single American life to keep it going.
It isnt a matter of winning or losing, we have said we arent trying to conquer anything for material spoils(except oil...the pink elephant in the room nobody is talking about from the GOP), we are nation building. with Bush, Cheney and the outgoing Rummy they didnt fight themselves. They all got out of it some way or another. The only one who learned lessons from Vietnam was Powell and he was out quick as soon as he didnt toe the party line. Powell has said in his book, US soldiers need to have, before entering conflict a clear strategy to win, and a clear strategy out. Obviously, niether of these have been well thought through.
On a side note, ASF, you probably are my favorite right winger to debate on this website.
 
jaysit
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:17 am

Dea Presidnt Bush

Thnk u for hunging Saddm Hussein. Yu r so greatest man in all of world. I feel so safe now. I type this lettr to you with my one fut. Pliz pardon me. My hands and other fut wuz blown by bombs last weec. Saddm is hanged and my muttha and sista and father feel good. In heaven. Last weec, my father was killed by solders. but that is ok. becuz my sistah put bomb in her burqa and killed solders in market. 10 solders. Then my mutha died in market by bomb. But I saved money for burial becuz I no find her body. Now i feel so free. She was a bich. I luv demokraci. but my naybor Ali dont like. pliz kill him too. I hate him. His mutha still alive and he make me feel jealuz. when is US visa for me? I want to go to new york city and live with lindsay Lohan. Iraq very very very bad.

Your fannest fan,

One leg Abbas

PS. Pliz send your bestest luving friend, Aerospacefan to Baghdad to teach us about your greatestness. my friend, one legged Ali and my uncle, one crutch Mushtaq say they want to show him new place with their crutch. Place where the sun don't shine.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 28):
This wasnt about regime change for the sake of doing the right thing, otherwise we would be in North Korea, the KSA and any number of other undemocratic countries. Its a personal vendetta. He tried ta kill ma daddy! The right and even the left can do thier best to justify the situation all they want. But it is inaccurate.

Just so, plenty of other dictators in the sea, why pick on Saddam? Oh yes, there was another ME country that did not like him.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 27):
Tomorrow you can write prophetic "thank you" notes from each and every Iraqi.

A few suitable inscriptions for tombstones will keep him busy too.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Because Saudi Arabia hasn't continually violated binding UN Security Council resolutions, nor has it ever invaded an adjacent country, nor has it been seeking weapons of mass destruction, nor has it ever used WMD's against its own people.

So, Israel must be next on the invade list? Ah no, the US did not support those resolutions so changed them to another form so that is OK, no double standards there.

There was a comment in our papers this morning that when either Bremer or Garner went in to Rummie to discuss reconstruction he was given a budget of about 60 million when he suggested billions were needed. Rummie and W were only into paying for destruction of Iraq, the Iraqis would have to pay for their own reconstruction from their own oil.

Which of course gives them an immediate reason to blow up their own pipelines - why should they encourage production of their own oil to suit an occupation force that they did not invite to the party.

Another major trouble is that the US put in a bunch of their own emigre puppets. So much for democracy. OK you were frightened of a bunch of pro-Iranian mullahs getting power, but Blind Freddie knew that was a problem, so why invite it?
 
santosdumont
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 29):
The United States is not a global social worker.

No superpower ever is. But there are a lot bigger fish than Sadam out there. It's interesting that GWB took Sadam to task for being a dictator, yet the United States and the United Kingdom supplied him with $, weapons, and all manner of industrial chemicals (ostensibly for use in making plastics) during the 1980s. But forget about that, Google the USS Stark and Ronald Reagan's reaction to it.

It's curious that Washington got on this regime change kick relatively recently...

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Because Saudi Arabia hasn't continually violated binding UN Security Council resolutions, nor has it ever invaded an adjacent country, nor has it been seeking weapons of mass destruction, nor has it ever used WMD's against its own people.

But the litmus test your post works with is democracy, right? Are women still prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia? Are Christians still forbidden from publicly displaying any faith-related item?
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 40):
It's interesting that GWB took Sadam to task for being a dictator, yet the United States and the United Kingdom supplied him with $, weapons, and all manner of industrial chemicals (ostensibly for use in making plastics) during the 1980s.

As an offset against Iran. Ironically, critics of the Bush Administration today, many from the left, have pointed to the fact that Iran benefits from Iraqi instability.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 40):
It's curious that Washington got on this regime change kick relatively recently...

If you consider the 1990's to be "relatively recently", then I guess you're right.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 40):
But the litmus test your post works with is democracy, right? Are women still prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia? Are Christians still forbidden from publicly displaying any faith-related item?

There is no "litmus test" that includes democracy. "Human rights" and associated concepts as imperatives for U.S. foreign policy were de-emphasized after the Democrats lost power in the White House. The assault against Yugoslavia was a Democratic and European initiative.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
So, Israel must be next on the invade list? Ah no, the US did not support those resolutions so changed them to another form so that is OK, no double standards there.

Israel has never violated a binding UN Security Council Resolution, because the U.S. has always vetoed them. Israel has never used weapons of mass destruction against its own people.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 39):
Another major trouble is that the US put in a bunch of their own emigre puppets. So much for democracy. OK you were frightened of a bunch of pro-Iranian mullahs getting power, but Blind Freddie knew that was a problem, so why invite it?

But see above, in re: the question of balancing Iran. Realpolitik has always been a legitimate approach toward foreign policy.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 37):
The Vietnam syndrome that is really in question is that the ones who were there fighting were being pushed into battle by people who had never tasted battle themselves see the same thing happening to thier peers then and now.

But JFK was the one that introduced ground troops to Vietnam, and he in fact did serve in war. And LBJ, who greatly escalated U.S. involvement in Vietnam, also served in the Navy during World War II.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 37):
Interesting you dont mention WMDs or Democracy in that entire paragraph.

That's true, and the reason is that they're not particularly relevant to the point I was making.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 37):
We shouldnt need to be patient. We have the best military in the world. We spend trillions on equipment and training. You blamed the state department in the earlier paragraph, but now it is a war problem. Which is it, the diplomacy end or the military end?

It's both. Both State and Defense dropped the ball in regard to postwar planning.

The U.S., through its vaunted military, is in fact able to turn all of Baghdad into parking lot, and large parts of Iraq into seas of glass. But because of various rules of engagement, the military isn't even able to pursue various militant groups into certain populated areas. It's not our armed forces that are the problem; rather, it's the context in which they must operate.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 37):
On a side note, ASF, you probably are my favorite right winger to debate on this website.

Thank you. I appreciate your kind comment.
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 41):
But see above, in re: the question of balancing Iran. Realpolitik has always been a legitimate approach toward foreign policy.

The bit about Israel not disobeying binding resolutions because the US always vetoes them, that does not remind you of catch 22?

Realpolitik has its place, I think the problems arise with Surrealpolitik and a good few think that Iraq was an exercise in the surreal version.
 
santosdumont
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 41):
As an offset against Iran.

Possibly. I guess one could file arming and training individuals who would later become Al-Qaida under the same category.

But there's "offsetting" and then there's the US reaction to what happened to the USS Stark

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 41):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 40):
It's curious that Washington got on this regime change kick relatively recently...

If you consider the 1990's to be "relatively recently", then I guess you're right.

Given your age bracket, I stand by my comments.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 41):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 40):
But the litmus test your post works with is democracy, right? Are women still prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia? Are Christians still forbidden from publicly displaying any faith-related item?

There is no "litmus test" that includes democracy. "Human rights" and associated concepts as imperatives for U.S. foreign policy were de-emphasized after the Democrats lost power

I'm refering to the litmus test in your reply 23.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
Possibly. I guess one could file arming and training individuals who would later become Al-Qaida under the same category.

And possibly not.

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
But there's "offsetting" and then there's the US reaction to what happened to the USS Stark

Fine. Let's assume that what happened in the 1980's matters. So what?

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
Given your age bracket, I stand by my comments.

And?

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
I'm refering to the litmus test in your reply 23.

Not a litmus test. Democracy is an adjunct of what occurred since 2003.
What's fair is fair.
 
santosdumont
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 44):
Possibly. I guess one could file arming and training individuals who would later become Al-Qaida under the same category.

And possibly not.

Blowback is blowback, no matter how you slice it.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 44):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
But there's "offsetting" and then there's the US reaction to what happened to the USS Stark

Fine. Let's assume that what happened in the 1980's matters. So what?

Institutional memory is a bitch, ain't it? The Right-wing commentariat would not kindly stomach the news that their icon took the apology of Sadam at face value...particularly in an episode that cost the lives of 37 American sailors. But that's ancient history, right?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 44):
Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 43):
Given your age bracket, I stand by my comments.

And?

And the whole regime change vibe came in with none other than former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, who said that Iraq deserved a "government worthy of its people." Not that long ago.
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 45):
Blowback is blowback, no matter how you slice it.

And even more of a bitch than Institutional memory too, because this time it is your opponents who remember!

The US seems to be very slow to learn about how serious a problem blowback is. It is also why it was so distressing that Blair learned so little from the duplicity and incompetence of the Suez war to follow a similarly duplicitous and incompetent plan to invade Iraq. And our very own little Johnny, the man of steel, in spite of his middle name of Winston (or perhaps because of it) does not appear to have learned anything as a prelude to forgetting it.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:23 pm

Quoting Santosdumont (Reply 45):

Blowback is blowback, no matter how you slice it.

The concept of "blowback" is fairly pejorative in this context.

But one could just as well say that the recently difficult nature of President Putin's administration is "blowback" from Western ideas about how Russia should be run.

And the question is: So what?
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 47):
But one could just as well say that the recently difficult nature of President Putin's administration is "blowback" from Western ideas about how Russia should be run.

True, are we to assume that the current version of Mother Russia is an ideal state?

I seem to remember the Russian state mislaying around a couple of hundred billion in loans and additionally effectively giving away huge value in national oil and mineral companies.

Now Putin is trying to repossess some of the more ill gotten gains. Blowback is a real pest, never know where it is going to turn up.

By the by, the collapse of Russia was yet another change that whoever caused the collapse did not plan for - seem familiar?
 
santosdumont
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RE: President Bush's Speech On Saddam And Iraq

Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 47):
The concept of "blowback" is fairly pejorative in this context

Ameliorative, it ain't.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 47):
And the question is: So what?

So what? I will file that under the who-cares-politik school of thought.

Who cares, right? After all, everybody knows that unpleasant policy decisions of that sort never have any repercussions anyway...
"Pursuit Of Truth No Matter Where It Lies" -- Metallica

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