cfalk
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Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:56 pm

OK, counting up the results up to reply 80, here are the results:

Quote:
1. Do you believe that a woman should be able to have a 1st trimester with few or no restrictions.
YES: 28 (68%) NO: 13 (32%)

Quote:
2. Do you believe that a woman should be able to have a 2nd trimester with few or no restrictions. (Fetus has working heart, brain and other organs, but is not independently viable)

YES: 24 (58%) NO: 17 (42%)

Quote:
3. Do you believe that Late Term Abortion (3rd Trimester) should be allowed with few on no restrictions. (Fetus is generally viable - many children are born 2-3 months early and survive with a little care)

YES: 9 (22%) NO: 32 (78%)

Observations:

It appears that the abortion debate is more complex than the media would have you believe. Or even pro-life proponents. A large majority favor the right to abortion within the first months of pregnancy. A somewhat smaller majority favor allowing abortion in the 2nd trimester. But by far the biggest majority vote was against late-term abortions.

If the abortion debate in the courts and media were separated into these three categories, I think we would have a lot less to argue about. By a large majority, women would be able to have abortions. The problem comes with late-term abortions. These are so horrific in concept and practice that even most pro-choice people shy away from it. I think if the late-term abortion fans would back off from that demand, they will find it a whole lot easier to ensure that early and mid-term abortion remains legal. Extremism begets extremism.

On a personal note, check out this website. This is the website of a Kansas doctor who specializes in late-term abortions. He gets $5,000 per procedure. http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html

Some people in the poll thread mentioned that the late term abortion should only be after a bit of counseling. Well, it better not be from this doctor - If you were about to make $5,000 bucks on the procedure, would you be trying hard to talk her out of it?

This is the page that really struck me.

http://www.drtiller.com/remembrance.html

Quote:
Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery. Everyone approaches this experience with their own unique emotional, spiritual, and cultural background. There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way". Once the process of healing has begun, you may want to consider a token of the precious time you and your baby had together. All of these features of our program will be discusssed with you while you are with us:

Viewing your baby after delivery
Holding your baby after delivery
Photographs of your baby
Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate
Footprints and handprints of your baby
Certificate of premature miscarriage
Cremation
An urn for ashes
Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state
Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy
Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional

Holy crap!!!

This isn't some operation to remove a bad spleen, apparently. When was the last time you did all the above for an extracted appendix? The women who go through this must go through some pretty awful remorse if Dr. Tiller offers these services.

It also shows how the baby would have been alive, independently viable, and who knows, maybe the next Einstein or Lennon. Except that someone decided to kill him/her. Sorry, but I see little difference between late-term abortion and the killing of a child. The argument that "it is part of a woman's body and thus her decision" is worthless IMHO, because that late in the pregnancy, if you cut the umbilical cord, the baby could live.

Discussion please...

[Edited 2006-11-06 13:12:45]
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greasespot
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RE: Results Of Adoption Poll Discussion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:02 pm

Um you better change the tiele...I think you meant abortion and not adoption.  wink 

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
cfalk
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 1):
Um you better change the tiele...I think you meant abortion and not adoption.

Done. Thanks for the spot - a little brain fart this early in the morning...
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Sorry, but I see little difference between late-term abortion and the killing of a child.

Very much agreed.

I am pro-life.

I also don't like the terms of the public debate as framed by those who support abortion claiming that it's a matter of the mother's choice. (I do call them "pro choicers" out of courtesy, but it's purely out of courtesy, and nothing more.) It's not a choice. It's whether a living child is being killed.
What's fair is fair.
 
GOTbound
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:48 am

Quote:
Viewing your baby after delivery
Holding your baby after delivery
Photographs of your baby
Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate
Footprints and handprints of your baby
Certificate of premature miscarriage
Cremation
An urn for ashes
Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state
Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy
Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional .



This make me sick and angry!

EK
 
texan
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
Sorry, but I see little difference between late-term abortion and the killing of a child. The argument that "it is part of a woman's body and thus her decision" is worthless IMHO, because that late in the pregnancy, if you cut the umbilical cord, the baby could live.

Sounds like you agree with The Supreme Court holdings in the well known abortion cases Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Blackbird07
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:08 am

Late-term bothers me to no end...

By the time a baby is THAT far along, the mother should just give birth and give the child to someone who wants it. Unless the mother is dying, or the baby is dying or for sure will die, there is no reason to kill it.

Keeping remembrance of the child is just awful, unless it had to be taken because of some life or death battle. It's so sad  Sad
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cfalk
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 5):
Sounds like you agree with The Supreme Court holdings in the well known abortion cases Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

I'm not an expert on the details of those decisions. My feelings in a nutshell are:

a) I greatly dislike the concept of abortion, but understand that there are valid reasons (including poverty, youth of the mother) for having an abortion that outweigh the POTENTIAL human being at stake, particularly early in the pregnancy.

b) As the pregnancy progresses, that POTENTIAL human being passes gradually from being simply a potential human being to an actual human being. Thus, gradually, the welfare of the mother ceases to outweigh that of the baby morally speaking, until at birth, when the child is a full-fledged person with all the rights and everything else. I feel that the transition in reality is gradual, not instant. The legal system unfortunately cannot well deal with gradual transitions, and a threshhold must be drawn.

c) I think the 3rd trimester provides a pretty good threshhold of this type. Before then, the baby is incapable of living without the mother. But as of the 7th month, there is a general expectation that a 7-month old fetus born prematurely can survive, with only a little care. I believe at that point that the welfare of the child outweighs the whims or concerns of the mother. Once the child can indeed live and breath independently (even if nature says it should spend another couple of months in the oven), I don't think you can condemn it to death any more than you can kill a 1-year old child.

d) I also believe that, constitutionally, abortion is NOT within the domain of the Federal government, unless a constitutional amendment is passed. Until that is done, I think it is a state issue.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
The women who go through this must go through some pretty awful remorse if Dr. Tiller offers these services.

Someone very close to me went through a partial birth abortion (it was after 5 or 6 months I think), because the foetus was badly malformed and had a 0% chance of survival beyond the first week of life. It was a hideously traumatic procedure, and a heartbreaking decision to have had to make, but the NHS did provide at least some of the procedures described, and it was a partial comfort at least that the foetus was buried decently and with some ceremony. It was awful, really really sad, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But there always has to be a choice.
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satx
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:56 am

Quote:
It appears that the abortion debate is more complex than the media would have you believe.

That's no problem, because this 'complex' debate was already resolved in South Dakota by following the Fundamentalist Evangelical Nicaraguan example. Mission accomplished.
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scbriml
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
I am pro-life.

Are you also in favour of the death penalty?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
nkops
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
youth of the mother

I understand what you mean here, but if the mother is that young, she just shouldn't have sex if she can't handle the responsibilty and/or consequences.
:evil:
 
cfalk
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 8):
Someone very close to me went through a partial birth abortion (it was after 5 or 6 months I think), because the foetus was badly malformed and had a 0% chance of survival beyond the first week of life. It was a hideously traumatic procedure, and a heartbreaking decision to have had to make, but the NHS did provide at least some of the procedures described, and it was a partial comfort at least that the foetus was buried decently and with some ceremony. It was awful, really really sad, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But there always has to be a choice.

I think your example shows where Late term abortion might be legitimate. But unfortunately, it is not often the case.

In Kansas, the law says that Late term abortion is allowed for medical reasons which would endanger the long term health of the mother. But this article suggests that Tiller is giving them a diagnosis of temporary depression (which does not satisfy the law).

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/no...cs_seek_investigation_ag_fox_host/

(BTW, Tiller is upset that a reporter saw the records - I don't see any denial that the claims are true).

I think there needs to be some sort of peer review process, where the mother needs to have her case examined by one or more doctors who are in no way financially linked to the doctor who makes money from the procedure.

[Edited 2006-11-06 19:15:18]
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cfalk
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Nkops (Reply 11):
I understand what you mean here, but if the mother is that young, she just shouldn't have sex if she can't handle the responsibilty and/or consequences.

Ever heard of busted condoms? No contraceptive measure that I know is 100% effective.

You also have to consider that we live in a world and culture where sex is glamorized. Kids have sex younger and younger. What's the percentage of virgin marriages today? Not high. I could go on...

The fact of the matter is that kids are going to have sex, and the more you tell them they shouldn't, the more they are gonna do it.

It is also a fact that a kid who has a child at age, say, 15 or 16, basically has their life ruined. They are generally unable to stay in school and lead a normal teen life. They very frequently end up dirt poor.

If they were adults, you might have an argument that "you reap what you sow (literally)". But these are kids in the midst of raging hormones and hip-hop booty videos. I think a little consideration needs to be given for that.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
texan
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I'm not an expert on the details of those decisions.

In a nutshell, Roe broke down the process into trimesters. The court held that

Quote:
(a) for the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.
(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.
(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

Basically, it says that the "right" to first trimester abortions cannot be infringed by the state. Second trimester abortions may be regulated by the state. For instance, the state can place a 24 hour (or potentially more) waiting period between the time a woman consults a physician about an abortion and the performance of the abortion, materials describing alternate options may be given to her, etc. The regulations are the main point, aside from upholding Roe, of the holding in Planned Parenthood. Third trimester abortions may be regulated or banned by states except where it is necessary for the preservation of life or health of the mother.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
GOTbound
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:02 am

Quote:
Ever heard of busted condoms? No contraceptive measure that I know is 100% effective

There is such thing as the "day after" pill, basically pill for women that forgot... so the busted condom is not a excuse, but I don't encourage the use of "day after" pills, think of all consequences before you have sex. I only had intercourse with one person, and that it's the mrs GOTbound and the mother to my baby boy!

I still had other sexual (besides penetration sex) encounters with women in my not so distant "youth". But hjey, I judge no one, that was choises I made.

I see it like this way, who want to go with a used car?  Wink

EK
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
It's not a choice. It's whether a living child is being killed.

In case of the first two thirds it simply is NOT a "LIVING" child.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
(BTW, Tiller is upset that a reporter saw the records - I don't see any denial that the claims are true).

I think there needs to be some sort of peer review process, where the mother needs to have her case examined by one or more doctors who are in no way financially linked to the doctor who makes money from the procedure.

As an aside, and not to start a red herring, but this is where state-funded health-care perhaps has an advantage - it removes the aspect of financial interest from medical decisions (in theory). At least it removes the distraction of direct personal gain.
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bushpilot
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:38 am

I didnt get into the original abortion poll, but I am pro-choice. I would only support third tri-mester if the mothers life was in danger. I also would only support those under 18 getting one with thier parents permission, or court permission as the case my provide. I would also like to see the case being that a woman is allowed only one "elective" abortion in thier lives.
 
cfalk
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
As an aside, and not to start a red herring, but this is where state-funded health-care perhaps has an advantage - it removes the aspect of financial interest from medical decisions (in theory). At least it removes the distraction of direct personal gain.

In France, as I recall, which has state-paid medical care, doctors are paid a fee for each procedure by the state. Comes to the same problem.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
In France, as I recall, which has state-paid medical care, doctors are paid a fee for each procedure by the state. Comes to the same problem.

Yes, but they don't own the hospital - a fee is one thing, the whole kit and caboodle is another. Plus the state (recently) has been getting a bit stricter about what it pays for and when. They're not saying no, but they are quite strict on peer review etc.
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aa757first
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:45 am

I don't think a poll on abortion can really be accurate until you start getting into different circumstances. A lot of pro-life people I know (myself included) are against elective abortions, but okay with them if they are therapeutic or for rape.

How anyone can even think of an elective late term abortion is beyond me.

AAndrew
 
walter747
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:49 am

haha this reminds me of a scene from Monster in Law where jane fonda was interviewing a britney spears type person and jane asked how do you feel about roe vs. wade and the girl responded "i dont support boxing, i think its to violent." Jane fonda then jumped across the table and strangled her. haha good stuff.
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unoflygirl
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:35 am

Obviously this topic is a very heated debate. As one of the few women on this website, I believe in a woman's right to choose. While I believe that life is important, I feel it's more important for the woman, and the man, involved be prepared to raise a child before they go ahead with the pregnancy. A child deserves a loving and nurturing home and if a couple isn't prepared to give that, then why have more and more children growing up in dysfunctional families or in foster care and adoption agencies.

Also, if a bright woman is on track for a great future, why should she have to give that up because of an accident/mistake? A couple could do all they can to prevent pregnancy, but it could still happen. I understand that the couple could still keep that future, but for some that's just not possible.

And another thing, why does it always seem to be the woman's fault?! Guys are just as much at fault as the woman, it's just not as big a deal because they wouldn't be the one's carrying around the baby for 9 months.

My apologies for going off on a tangent, but I just wanted to put in my two cents.
"I'm not anxious to die...just anxious to matter"
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Are you also in favour of the death penalty?

This is nothing more than an argument for arguing. Flamebait.

Cheers,
Kyle
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satx
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Unoflygirl (Reply 23):
I believe in a woman's right to choose. While I believe that life is important, I feel it's more important for the woman, and the man, involved be prepared to raise a child before they go ahead with the pregnancy.

I agree 100%. Just keep in mind that if you think this website is somewhat unreceptive of your views, you should follow what's already going on in South Dakota. Why must people pass such laws? Is it because they can't hold themselves to their own high standards until a law has been passed preventing them from committing additional sin?

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 24):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Are you also in favour of the death penalty?

This is nothing more than an argument for arguing. Flamebait.

Actually, it seems like a point well made to me. In my view only a hypocrite would see no value in discussing such a question.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
dw9115
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 9):
That's no problem, because this 'complex' debate was already resolved in South Dakota by following the Fundamentalist Evangelical Nicaraguan example. Mission accomplished.

Excuse me but maybe you should look at the great state of South Dakota and it's voters they are expected to repeal the law on Tuesday by a 68%. Also the state has probably the best voters in the nation making there decisions based on facts and whom they feel will do the best job no matter what political party the candidate belongs to. They after all kept Tom Daschle and George McGovern in office for years in a state the the Republicans control with 78% of registered voters, even though most would call those two far left nut's which from your words you seem to be a very close minded and pathetic little person do some basic fact checking before posting small minded comments about a topic you apparently seem to know thing about. Oh and by the way if you think I only said this because I some kind of pro-life "Fundamentalist Evangelical Nicaraguan" well you might want to guess again because I am pro-choice.
 
N1120A
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Cfalk (Thread starter):
If the abortion debate in the courts and media were separated into these three categories, I think we would have a lot less to argue about. By a large majority, women would be able to have abortions

The courts have already established this in the US.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
I also don't like the terms of the public debate as framed by those who support abortion claiming that it's a matter of the mother's choice. (I do call them "pro choicers" out of courtesy, but it's purely out of courtesy, and nothing more.)



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
I am pro-life.

Well, wasn't that pointless. If you wanted to say something about your anti-choice views, you should have said it in the other thread.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
I'm not an expert on the details of those decisions.

You should read them

Quoting SATX (Reply 9):
That's no problem, because this 'complex' debate was already resolved in South Dakota by following the Fundamentalist Evangelical Nicaraguan example.

The law is invalid anyway, not to mention that SD is going to repeal it tomorrow.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
(BTW, Tiller is upset that a reporter saw the records - I don't see any denial that the claims are true).

The reporter had no right to see those records if the patients themselves didn't release them.

Quoting Texan (Reply 14):
Second trimester abortions may be regulated by the state.

Only the procedure. Access must still be unfettered by undue burden

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 24):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Are you also in favour of the death penalty?

This is nothing more than an argument for arguing. Flamebait.

Actually, it is a very valid point.
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satx
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 26):
Excuse me but maybe you should look at the great state of South Dakota and it's voters they are expected to repeal the law on Tuesday by a 68%.

Did they not also vote to place Mike Rounds, William Napoli & Company in office in the first place? Forgive me for not taking your state's back-tracking too seriously until it actually happens.

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 26):
you seem to be a very close minded and pathetic little person do some basic fact checking before posting small minded comments about a topic you apparently seem to know thing about.

Close mindedness on the part of your conservative state legislature, your governor, and your senator is what brought the abortion debate to South Dakota, not me. But hey, I love a good personal attack once in a while.

Quote:

Napoli entered the spotlight by virtue of several public statements he made regarding the legislation H.B. 1215, enacted in 2006, to limit abortion access in South Dakota to those cases in which the woman's life would be in danger, possibly anticipating or inviting a repudiation of Roe v. Wade by the Roberts Court.

Among his statements were:

"When I was growing up here in the wild west, if a young man got a girl pregnant out of wedlock, they got married, and the whole darned neighborhood was involved in that wedding. I mean, you just didn't allow that sort of thing to happen, you know? I mean, they wanted that child to be brought up in a home with two parents, you know, that whole story. And so I happen to believe that can happen again." [1]

Asked about a possible exception to that rule, Napoli replied:

"A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life." [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Napoli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rounds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women'...alth_and_Human_Life_Protection_Act
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CastleIsland
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:05 pm

I suppose that I could quote a good number of statements in this thread to preface my point, but I'd rather make it on my own. I do support a woman's right to choose, but only in the first trimester.

Truth is, if you get pregnant, you ought to be able to bring the child to term; there are many ways to get the child into good homes if you are not willing or not capable of raising it yourself.

Let's consider the act of procreation and the act of raising a child. Fucking is easy. It's the rest that complicates matters. So, we find ourselves (I speak of us as a collective being) screwing, and then, many of us find a certain disdain with the outcome.

Look, if you wanna do it, be prepared to deal with the consequences. If you do not, have the courage in both genders to bring the child to term, and have it given up for adoption. While I do support the choice of women to end a pregnancy, I think that there are plenty of married couples out there who either cannot conceive, or are otherwise willing to adopt. The back-off on this is younger women who are reluctant to tell their parents, etc. I give them the first trimester as an out, as the opposite, if abortion is outlawed, is the dirty coat-hanger and vacuum cleaner (forgive the gruesome analogy).

So, this begs the question: why are so many of us so bent on reproducing? Why is it that so many of us are compelled to have another of us walking around? EGO, EGO, EGO.

There are far too many starving children in this world. Why do you need to have your own? Adopt, for crying out loud. The neighbors will get over the strange sight of you with an Asian, Black, or green/purple baby. If not, fuck 'em.

I say, get over it. You are no greater than anyone else. I, for one, will NEVER have children; I want nothing to do with them. Pain in the ass, and who the hell would want anyone with my genes walking this green Earth?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
dw9115
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 28):
Close mindedness on the part of your conservative state legislature, your governor, and your senator is what brought the abortion debate to South Dakota, not me. But hey, I love a good personal attack once in a while.

My Senator I think not my Senator is Frank Kloucek oh which by the way voted against the law.

Quoting SATX (Reply 28):
Did they not also vote to place Mike Rounds, William Napoli & Company in office in the first place? Forgive me for not taking your state's back-tracking too seriously until it actually happens.

Governor Rounds Has publicly said he thinks the law had gone a little to far and the Senator you speak of only represents a small area the size of on county and a half with only 1345 registered voters so the vast majority of South Dakota residents did not vote for him or want this law that is why it was placed on the ballot and is go to be struck down. That's how government works there is no back tracking the citizens never wanted it and now they are going to show it. You attack the state because it is conservative but explain why they kept electing to of the most liberal politician in history maybe you should try thinking with a open mind like the citizens of South Dakota instead of the close minded way you seem to be doing. I all most forgot as far as South Dakotan's being "Evangelical" I think not most are in fact Roman Catholic.
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 30):
My Senator I think not my Senator is Frank Kloucek oh which by the way voted against the law.

What language is this?

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 30):
Governor Rounds Has publicly said he thinks the law had gone a little to far and the Senator you speak of only represents a small area the size of on county and a half with only 1345 registered voters so the vast majority of South Dakota residents did not vote for him or want this law that is why it was placed on the ballot and is go to be struck down. That's how government works there is no back tracking the citizens never wanted it and now they are going to show it. You attack the state because it is conservative but explain why they kept electing to of the most liberal politician in history maybe you should try thinking with a open mind like the citizens of South Dakota instead of the close minded way you seem to be doing. I all most forgot as far as South Dakotan's being "Evangelical" I think not most are in fact Roman Catholic.

Ohigetitit'ssomeformofenglish.gladtoseeyouareontheotherside.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
TACAA320
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:02 pm

Mother Teresa of Calcutta confronted President Clinton on his pro-abortion stand in early February at the National Prayer Breakfast. Last week she took her pro-life message to the highest court in the land. Her lawyers filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court urging it to recognize the unborn child's inalienable right to life.

She urged the court to hear the case Alexander Loce vs. The State of New Jersey, which invol es the issue of whether or not the unborn child is a human being entitled to 14th Amendment protection. Loce was convicted of trespassing for attempting to prevent his fiance from having an abortion.

Mother Teresa's petition is a powerful witness in defense of life. It includes the following passage:
"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe vs. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts--a child--as a competitor, an intrusion and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the dependent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters. And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.

"Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government," she said. "They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or sovereign. The Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany recently ruled: 'The unborn child is entitled to its right to life independently of its acceptance by its mother; this is an elementary and inalienable right which emanates from the dignity of the human being.'

"Americans may feel justly proud that Germany in 1993 was able to recognize the sanctity of human life. You must weep that your own government, at present, seems blind to this truth."

Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:05 pm

Every abortion is a tragedy. We allow ourselves to kill the weakest among us, the very same we are supposed to defend at any cost.

I understand why many good and decent folks can see 1st trimester abortions as a reasonable and legal option. Yet, it's still the destruction of a human being just like a 3rd trimester abortion. The sacredness of the human life is total and it doesn't accept exceptions. The fact that we are willing to cheer and support the killing of a baby says a lot about who we are and our society.

Please, pray for the innocent lifes taken and their mothers.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
satx
Posts: 2771
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:42 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 33):
The sacredness of the human life is total and it doesn't accept exceptions.

Well, unless you live in Iraq.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 29):
who the hell would want anyone with my genes walking this green Earth?

On behalf of the entire human race, allow me to say "Not us !".  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 32):
pro-abortion

Not pro abortion....Pro choice.....I do not know anyonw who like abortion......we just do not want to take choice away from where it belongs. With the woman...big difference...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
beefstew25
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Are you also in favour of the death penalty?

From the original post:

I am anti-death penalty because I don't want to be seen as a hypocrite when it comes to abortion. But there is definately a distinction between the two.

Criminals on death row had a choice. Babies do not. Plus, the amount of criminals executed does not even come close to the amount of abortions performed. I never understood how people can argue that the death penalty is immoral but accept abortions.

I also think there is some long term ramifications with women that have abortions, as I have known a couple of people in college that went through it.
MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 25):
Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 24):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 10):
Are you also in favour of the death penalty?

This is nothing more than an argument for arguing. Flamebait.

Actually, it seems like a point well made to me. In my view only a hypocrite would see no value in discussing such a question.

I agree. I find it odd that so many abortion opponents are death penalty supporters.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):
I find it odd that so many abortion opponents are death penalty supporters.

I was discussing the converse with DL021 on the way back from BHM on Sunday. Many people who are pro-choice are against the death penalty. I'm one (to an extent), and I'm not sure I can give any of you a convincing reason as to why.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
beefstew25
Posts: 581
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:06 am

Kill the innocent and protect the guilty....I don't understand it...
MLB: Where you are always number one for takeoff.....
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 38):
I find it odd that so many abortion opponents are death penalty supporters.

I was discussing the converse with DL021 on the way back from BHM on Sunday. Many people who are pro-choice are against the death penalty. I'm one (to an extent), and I'm not sure I can give any of you a convincing reason as to why.

I didn't mean to single out the abortion no/DP yes crowd from the abortion yes/DP no crowd. They are both widely populated groups. Personally, I prefer consistency on this issue (abortion yes/DP yes), but I understand "your" rationale better than the other one.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Results Of Abortion Poll Discussion

Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 40):
Kill the innocent and protect the guilty....

Throwing someone in jail for life isn't "protecting" them and you can't kill something that isn't living.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 41):
Personally, I prefer consistency on this issue

It is your opinion that it is consistent to go yes/yes. The thing is, most pro-choice people I know, including me, don't consider something a baby until it is more than an ooze of stem cells capable of living independently of its mother, while someone condemned to death is living and breathing.
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