Beaucaire
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Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Since the devastating attack on the village of Beit Hanun yesterday ,which killed 18 people -mainly civilians- Hamas and Fatah have declared an end to the truth and threat to start suicide bombings on Israeli targets.
The arrival of Deputy Prime Minister Avigdor Lieberman seem to have strengthened the defenders of ethnic cleansing among Israel's ultra right.Not a good start for a deputy Prime Minister.
Of course the Israeli Government will "investigate " the incident and regrets any civil casualties...
Rarely seen any more hypocrite crap statement by Jerusalem.
The moment political leaders will start realizing they kill any hope for compromise,peace and civil neighbourly life in Palestine- let me know !

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/N...s/0,9294,2-10-1462_2026681,00.html

[Edited 2006-11-08 14:53:44]

[Edited 2006-11-08 14:55:30]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
The moment political leaders will start realizing they kill any hope for compromise,peace and civil neighbourly life in Palestine- let me know !

Because there was lots of hope for compromise, peace, and civil neighbourly life with thousands of rockets being launched since Israeli withdrew from Gaza, and Palestinian terrorists still holding the kidnapped Israeli soldier...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:28 pm

With 60 people killed by IDF in one week in Gaza ,the great democracy Israel should have learned that eye for eye,tear for tear does not pay ...
The new/old Government is taking a steep road for more conflicts instead of more security.You wonder if they will ever learn ????
Looking back is never a good way to solve problems but looking ahead by promoting constructive ways to prevent future desasters.Avigdor Lieberman has been hired to keep the conflicts alive -what a sad decison...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
MDorBust
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Hamas and Fatah have declared an end to the truth and threat to start suicide bombings on Israeli targets.

Didn't Hamas kill the truth a long time ago?

Freudian?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
jacobin777
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2):
With 60 people killed by IDF in one week in Gaza ,the great democracy Israel should have learned that eye for eye,tear for tear does not pay ...
The new/old Government is taking a steep road for more conflicts instead of more security.You wonder if they will ever learn ????
Looking back is never a good way to solve problems but looking ahead by promoting constructive ways to prevent future desasters.Avigdor Lieberman has been hired to keep the conflicts alive -what a sad decison...

 checkmark 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):

Because there was lots of hope for compromise, peace, and civil neighbourly life with thousands of rockets being launched since Israeli withdrew from Gaza, and Palestinian terrorists still holding the kidnapped Israeli soldier...

Yet how many have died from this "thousands of rockets"?

The disproportionality of deaths is outstanding...and sickening....

And where is the media coverage?

If this happened to Israelis', it would be all over CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, CBS..and of course, that bastards CBN network.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
And where is the media coverage?

...there is a fine distinction between casualties - African,Arab or Asian-subcontinent casualties usually attract far less coverage than Israeli victims.
They seem to be closer to "disposable" entities rather than human beings.
All victims of armed conflicts are a sad and useless loss of life.
Conflicts have never been solved by armed "solutions" but negotiated ones.
It is sickening that 60 killed Palestinians in just one week do not bring up mass-protests any longer.But elections in the US are a good moment to keep the world-opinion focused on other issues..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:22 am

Who is killing the hope, Beaucaire?

In 1993 the Palestinians in the GS received, for the first time ever, (from Israel) a self control on their lives, on their destiny by allowing the creation of the Palestinian authority (and the arrival of Arafat). What did they do with it?

Last year Israel completely withdrew from the GS. It was no longer an occupied territory. The Palestinians in the GS did not live under occupation anymore. Can you have a bigger hope step than that? What did they do with it?

Since then (actually even before that, but I'm not talking about it) the Palestinians bomb Israeli towns outside the GS with thousands of rockets. Should Israel live with it? Should any country live with it? On what truth are you talking about? Only 2 days ago we were attacked by a suicide bomber (which killed only her self).

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Yet how many have died from this "thousands of rockets"?

Very few, so what? Is that make it ok? Are we suppose to do nothing at all because it's "only" injured people most of the times and not kill them? Are we suppose to wait until we will have a big disaster before we do a real operation against that? This is a rhetorical question because this is exactly what we are doing. We are playing games.





What happened today is a tragedy and as I said in the pass it does more damage to Israel then anything else. We don't need such incidents but the Palestinians attack only civilian targets every single day from a civilian none occupied territory and we have the right to response.
If the Palestinians stop the attacks on Israel from the GS, no Israeli shell will land in the GS. It is up to the Palestinians to decide what will happen here. It is that simple.
Long live the B747
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:57 am

But what is the precise justification for this particular attack ?
The Lebanon conflict is over-both sides had to suffer loss of life -sad enough!
But to my understanding neither Hamas,neither Fatah have launched major terror-attacks on Israel these last weeks- so why this massaker that killed among other civil victims - a large family,whose members can not even be identified,since some of them have no heads or members any longer !!!
This sheer politic of more and more revenge will not allow Israel to progress any inch towards more security !
You can always go back in history and try to find reasons to launch new attacks-how far back you want to go ???
If Israel considers itself as a more mature and democratic sociéty,try to prove it be developing a genuine peace-inititiative.
Unfortunately I doubt that your new vice-prime Minister will participate actively in forging such a doctrine.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
But to my understanding neither Hamas,neither Fatah have launched major terror-attacks on Israel these last weeks

Define major. No, there were no big attacks (or attacks at all) in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or other major cities in the past weeks but this is only because we stooped them, not because the Palestinians didn't try (they did).
When it comes to Shederot (and other towns around the GS but especially Shederot), this is a whole different story. When I said that every day Palestinian's rockets hit this city, this is exactly what I mean. Every day they are being hit. EVERY DAY (think about it for a second). What are we suppose to do about it?
If the Palestinian stops, so will we. As I said, it is that simple.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
You can always go back in history and try to find reasons to launch new attacks-how far back you want to go ???

On one hand I don't have to go back too far. One year is enough. When Israel withdrew from the GS a line was drew. That was supposed to be a new beginning (and became another opportunity the Palestinians missed).
On the other hand I can go thousands of years back, when there were no Muslims or Christians, only Jews. Do you want to go there?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 7):
Unfortunately I doubt that your new vice-prime Minister will participate actively in forging such a doctrine.

Don't get it wrong. Mr. Lieberman maybe has a big title but he has absolutely zero affect on the events. He doesn't say anything to the army or to the defense minister (or anyone else for that matter). His party was asked to join the coalition only to stabilize it (to help passing the budget and other laws the Palestinians have nothing to do with).
Long live the B747
 
bravo45
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
mainly civilians

Correction: All civilians. I haven't read even Israel claiming any of them were anything other than civilians.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Of course the Israeli Government will "investigate " the incident and regrets any civil casualties...

Yeah right! As always...  Yeah sure

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Rarely seen any more hypocrite crap statement by Jerusalem.

Sorry but again, Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel. Not recognised by either the UN or most countries as such around the world. In fact it not even disputed territory, its considered to be 'occupied Palestinian territory'.

Anyway on the topic, I heard an interview of a Palestinian Policeman who was sleeping in his apartment when the shells hit, he lost IIRC 11 members of his immediate family including 3 brothers and his grandmother, saying, "I wasn't a militant, but Israel has made me one now".
Rest assured, living in a world of reality, there will be attacks in Israel now. I hope they are more of the likes of soldiers being attacked instead of suicide bombings, but then again can't expect Palestinians now to hold themselves from doing something that they can. Besides I think more than one organisation has specifically called for suicide bombings. Just look at the casualties of both sides ever since Hamas got elected and declared a one sided ceasefire. Its sickening what Israel does and gets away with while 'regretting' nonetheless.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
And where is the media coverage?

If this happened to Israelis', it would be all over CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, CBS..and of course, that bastards CBN network.....

 checkmark 

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
They seem to be closer to "disposable" entities rather than human beings.

 checkmark 

Quoting Avi (Reply 6):
Last year Israel completely withdrew from the GS. It was no longer an occupied territory. The Palestinians in the GS did not live under occupation anymore. Can you have a bigger hope step than that? What did they do with it?

No doubt, that is why Gaza was called by just about all human rights organisations as the World's largest prison. Explain to me why despite the so called 'withdrawl and abolishment of settlements, their overall number and that of the settlers only increased? They gave up certain land and settlements no doubt but substituted it for better place in the WB protected by that aparthied wall on the land which is some of the best in the region in terms of water resources and irrigation. Israel can't fool the whole world.

Quoting Avi (Reply 6):
the Palestinians bomb Israeli towns outside the GS with thousands of rockets. Should Israel live with it? Should any country live with it? On what truth are you talking about? Only 2 days ago we were attacked by a suicide bomber (which killed only her self).

WHAT?? So Israel can do all it wants outside its recognised borders (GS) but Palestinians can't. *applause*
No country should espect not to have concequences when it does what Israel has done. And its not over yet, settlements continue to be built and expanded on occupies territory, people continue to be arrested to be put away in prison being tortured for no reason, people continue to die in their houses as shells land all around.
Lastly the suicide bombing 2 days ago was IIRC inside GS and killed one IDF soldier on OCCUPIED TERRITORY.
That's the truth!

Quoting Avi (Reply 6):
Very few, so what? Is that make it ok?

No but Israel need to know THAT IS NOT EXCUSE TO KILL DOZENS OF CIVIALIANS ON THE OTHER SIDE. Does it???

Quoting Avi (Reply 6):
If the Palestinians stop the attacks on Israel from the GS, no Israeli shell will land in the GS. It is up to the Palestinians to decide what will happen here. It is that simple.

If there had been no ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, if there had been no occupation there would not ever have been ONE SUICIDE BOMBING. That's my opinions. Its Israel's choice to return the land, let the refugees return and build as many walls as it want ONLY inside ITS BORDERS: IF IT WANTS PEACE. My personal opinion, Israel doesnot want a just peace. Palestinian choices are restricted to blowing themselves up in their attempt to not let other have a free ride on what is theirs or choose to live as slaves of no worth. That's their only choice. They can't even elect their own government.

Quoting Avi (Reply 8):
On one hand I don't have to go back too far. One year is enough. When Israel withdrew from the GS a line was drew. That was supposed to be a new beginning (and became another opportunity the Palestinians missed).
On the other hand I can go thousands of years back, when there were no Muslims or Christians, only Jews. Do you want to go there?

On the first statement: WRONG! That new begining was never meant to be. GS is the probably the most heavily populated area in the world. A bantustan or a ghetto with the sky as its roof, the IDF on three sides and water on the other.
And Jews were not thrown out of this land thousands of years ago by Muslims. Hence by the same logic if it was wrong thousands of years ago, thats the perfect logic that its wrong now.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:02 am

Oh goody, another usual a-net non-av Israel bashing thread....

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Hamas and Fatah have declared an end to the truth and threat to start suicide bombings on Israeli targets.

Uh..when did they stop the attacks? Israel is being bombarded by rockets and other munitions almost every day.
אני תומך בישראל
 
bravo45
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
Oh goody, another usual a-net non-av Israel bashing thread....

No, yet another Israeli huge massacre. The few Palestinians killed here and there no longer inspire new threads of their own anymore. And there haven't been a lot of Israeli deaths for that to happen.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
Uh..when did they stop the attacks?

The attacks started probably decades after the occupation and ethnic cleansing began, no reason to expect they will end sooner than the injustices are compensated for.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
Israel is being bombarded by rockets and other munitions almost every day.

The unguided firecrackers? Yes because that's all they have to respond with.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
The unguided firecrackers? Yes because that's all they have to respond with.

So you're saying they should get better weapons so that they can kill more Israeli civilians like my cousin.

Hmm...nice idea  Yeah sure
אני תומך בישראל
 
bravo45
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):
So you're saying they should get better weapons so that they can kill more Israeli civilians like my cousin.

Hmm...nice idea

Where did you get that from? But that brings me to what I think would be the justice. A Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital with a strong army (not militia groups etc) to protect them against aggressors like Israel, willing to take all those things that have been taken from them. Israeli with-drawl from *all* occupied territory, release of *all* innocent people in Israeli jails. Right of return of those that were ethnically cleansed from their land. Trials of *all* individuals guilty of committing any crimes against any other human being in the region, maybe through a UN tribunal or something. But like I said, I don't believe Israel wants justice, and since it has the military power, it will continue to suppress others using the tactics like the incident in question.
While your statement gives me the impression that you don't want Palestinians to have even the most minute of protection of any kind so they they remain stateless like EK156. Hope you have read his thread: I Am A Palestinian Refugee (by EK156 Nov 7 2006 in Non Aviation)

P.S What the story of your cousin?
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am

An appeal to both sides ....

To the Palestinians - stop the shelling, just ignore Israel.
To the Israeli - leave the WB. Ignore Palestine.

So each side has to abide to the 1967 borders. And then we'll see who will break the agreement first.

What our Israeli members forget to mention is the fact that the IDF is in the West Bank non-stop, that it performs raids whenever it pleases, that it managed to destroy the Palestinian self-governing agency ("police"?) and it expects the Palestinian leadership to actually do anything about the radicals in it's society.

What the Palestinians need to realize is the fact how they are perceived by the US (Europe has a far more pragmatic view; please - I'm talking about the 'average' European and American). As long as they themselves don't stop the terrorists - they are perceived as terrorists also. Learn from Gandhi - no matter what they do, ignore them. Show the world what is happening.

I understand that Israeli citizens are not too happy about rockets arriving from the WB - but do you for a second wonder how it feels to be a Palestinian living in the WB? You have no chance to succeed economically (dear Americans, you need to realize that anything that is larger than a workshop with 2 hammers gets torn down as a 'terrorist hideout' too frequently; it's not America where you *have* a chance to succeed), you are never safe in your house (what if the IDF picks your house tomorrow). That is not life - that is waiting for just another day to pass by.

Just try to think what an average Palestinian has to go through. Can you understand where the anger comes from?

D.
 
bravo45
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Damirc (Reply 14):

Thanks for a wonderful post. Unfortunately I don't see the hope that either side is practically capable of doing that. I would love to be wrong on this though. Having said that, the Hamas and others have actually surprised me personally for not resorting to any suicide bombings etc sooner, despite the halting of their taxes and ceasure of their aid. I also doubt that the world would do anything expect maybe condemn Israel over this incident should the Palestinians totally hold back.
Just my opinions.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 13):
P.S What the story of your cousin?

He is in Haifa and has narrowly avoided being blown up on several occasions....pretty scary.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 14):
What the Palestinians need to realize is the fact how they are perceived by the US (Europe has a far more pragmatic view; please - I'm talking about the 'average' European and American). As long as they themselves don't stop the terrorists - they are perceived as terrorists also.

I think the Palestinians know how they are perceived in the West, they just don't care.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 14):
Just try to think what an average Palestinian has to go through. Can you understand where the anger comes from?

Ok, but also on the other side, average Israelis have to go through the same thing as well.

I don't think this conflict will end anytime soon. Its been going on for 60 something years, and will sure as hell go on for another 60 years.
אני תומך בישראל
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
GS is the probably the most heavily populated area in the world. A bantustan or a ghetto with the sky as its roof, the IDF on three sides and water on the other.

What are you talking about? You have no idea about what is going on. What 3 sides?
North? Yes, it is Israel.
East? Yes, it is Israel.
South? No way. It is Egypt and there is not a single Israeli soldier between Egypt and the GS (and thanks to that the Palestinians bring into the GS tens of tons of explosive- all in the name of peace of course). Your all theory just crashed.
This is not exactly the definition of prison.

Why do some organizations call the GS prison even it is a pure lie? Maybe because they are organizations with a "mission".

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
Lastly the suicide bombing 2 days ago was IIRC inside GS and killed one IDF soldier

Actually she killed only herself (we did loss a soldier last week but in different incident).

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 13):
release of *all* innocent people in Israeli jails.

Are you talking about the suicide bombers who failed, or maybe about those who built the explosive belts, or maybe all those who worked to carry out suicide attacks or maybe all of those who just used M16 or AK47 (etc. etc. etc.)? Who among them is innocent?




I could comment every sentence you wrote, but I don't have the power for that.

[Edited 2006-11-09 03:39:37]
Long live the B747
 
CO7e7
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Of course the Israeli Government will "investigate " the incident and regrets any civil casualties

What's new?

That's the same BS the Israeli gov't feeds the world!

I think the Israeli / Palestinian problem will NEVER be resolved. End of story.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
No doubt, that is why Gaza was called by just about all human rights organisations as the World's largest prison. Explain to me why despite the so called 'withdrawl and abolishment of settlements, their overall number and that of the settlers only increased? They gave up certain land and settlements no doubt but substituted it for better place in the WB protected by that aparthied wall on the land which is some of the best in the region in terms of water resources and irrigation. Israel can't fool the whole world.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
No, yet another Israeli huge  massacre .

 checkmark 

"The Red Cross and Unicef said they were appalled by the deaths of women and children from Israeli tank fire in the town of Beit Hanoun."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6131042.stm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 12):

So you're saying they should get better weapons so that they can kill more Israeli civilians like my cousin.

and this is fine.. sarcastic ......

"The UN children's agency Unicef said it was distressed by what it called the extraordinary violence in Gaza.

It said children there were living through a terrifying siege that would have an enduring impact. "

Thirteen of the dead were said to belong to the same family, and two of them were women and six were children.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 18):

That's the same BS the Israeli gov't feeds the world!

This is what the world needs to see...but forget about that...

"Up the Irons!"
 
rolfen
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:52 am

"When Massacres Become Mistakes"

http://lebanese-forces.org/vbullet/showthread.php?p=273152

Not the first time... actually israel makes them mistakes several times a year... and these mistakes account for thousands of death a year.

Then some people expect the palestinians to accept the apologies, and then stand in line at israeli checkpoints and obey to orders barked by fully armed israeli soldiers and respect curfews and calmly watch israelis build illegal settlements (they're called "jewish neighbourhoods" on CNN) on palestinian ground.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have here a state of war. And it war the 1st victim is the truth.

When eveyone is done pointing fingers maybe they could sit down and start thinking for peace.
rolf
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:35 am

Israel thrives on conflict and violence, without it, it becomes less important and significant. Any interest in peace from the Israeli's would have resulted in a legitimate peace agreement years ago. It hasn't because as i just said, it either thrives in a climate of violence, or it simply does not know how to deal with the Palestinians. The massacres of Palestinian civilians is nothing new, Israel has mastered the art of killiing civilians and inflaming the situation. The usual "we regret civilian deaths" and crocodile tears follows.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 14):
Just try to think what an average Palestinian has to go through. Can you understand where the anger comes from?

Trying to understand Palestinian anger is not civilised or acceptable, you are branded a "terrorist" or "terrorist sympathiser".
In Arsene we trust!!
 
rolfen
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:25 pm

"Biet Hanun" is arabic for "tender house", right?
rolf
 
cedars747
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:19 pm


Israeli children leaving messages on missiles aimed for Lebanon


Thanks girls...I got your message !

Mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes mistakes

DEMOCRACY A LA ISRAEL !

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
KSYR
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:30 pm

Seems to me like some people are forgetting in the Palestinian version of a peaceful protest-





As long as the Palestinians continue to target civilians, Israel can make all the mistakes it needs to IMO. And I'm glad that American funded and manufactured weapons are being used against the terrorists.
 
rolfen
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting KSYR (Reply 24):
As long as the Palestinians continue to target civilians,

Hey, when was the last time that happenend?

[Edited 2006-11-11 09:04:14]
rolf
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
Quoting KSYR (Reply 24):
As long as the Palestinians continue to target civilians,

Hey, when was the last time that happenend?

Every time they fire Kasam rockets on Shederot or any other town around the GS (which means they do it several times EVERY DAY), they target civilians.

If you are talking about the bus, then thanks to the security fence and very very very hard work of the security forces, we didn't have a suicide bomber in a bus in the past 2 years (however elsewhere he had) but they didn't and don't stop trying. This is not 2002. Back then the last thing they had to think about was how to enter Israel. Today it is the first thing they think about and in most cases it doesn't go any farther. This is why you don't see in the WB what you see in the GS.

Security fence = less terror attacks in Israel = less dead Israelis = less IDF operations in the WB = less dead Palestinians.
Long live the B747
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 26):
Security fence = less terror attacks in Israel = less dead Israelis = less IDF operations in the WB = less dead Palestinians

Hm. Well. As you've admitted, there have been no terror attacks in Israel in the past 2 years. (well at least on buses). So why is the amount of IDF operations in the West Bank still high?

And oh.

Security fence = less land for the Palestinians.

D.
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Damirc (Reply 27):
As you've admitted, there have been no terror attacks in Israel in the past 2 years. (well at least on buses).

I said we didn't have one on a bus and I said, as a remark, that we had elsewhere (so I didn't say we didn't have a terror attack inside Israel in the past 2 years, we did).
A suicide bomber did blow up himself in Tel Aviv last April (just one example) and for its type (a single suicide bomber in open space) it was the 2nd worst attack in the Intifada (after the discotheque attack in Tel Aviv on June 2001). There were also shotting attacks.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 27):
So why is the amount of IDF operations in the West Bank still high?

I also said that the Palestinians didn't stop trying and unfortunately from time to time they succeed. I didn't say it is impossible to enter Israel (no such thing and the fence is not even complete), I said it is very very very difficult. This is why the IDF and more than that the GSS (Shabak) still need to work and work hard in the WB. Still, the situation in the WB is not even close to be what it was in 2002.
Long live the B747
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 28):
A suicide bomber did blow up himself in Tel Aviv last April ... There were also shotting attacks.

True. And there are rockets being fired from the WB. True also. So how many Israelis have been killed in Israel proper (ie: without illegal settlements) and how many Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank? Does that tell us something?

Quoting Avi (Reply 28):
I also said that the Palestinians didn't stop trying and unfortunately from time to time they succeed.

Care to speculate why they don't stop trying to instill terror into the people of Israel?

D.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Damirc (Reply 29):
Does that tell us something?

The Wall works?

Quoting Damirc (Reply 29):
why they don't stop trying to instill terror into the people of Israel?

You tell us. That's what the terrorist apologist are here for.
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 30):
The Wall works?

Congratulations. You've missed the point completely.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 30):
You tell us. That's what the terrorist apologist are here for

I was wondering about his opinion as an Israeli. And btw: terrorist apologist? Come on. Because somebody disagrees with your stance, they're tagged terrorist apologists?

Whatever. I have never ever agreed with any terrorist attack. But I also disagree with what is going on in Palestine for the past 60 years under the pretext of 'they want to kill us all', while at the same time the supposed 'killers' are dying faster than the supposed 'victims'. Does not compute :P

D.
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Damirc (Reply 29):
So how many Israelis have been killed in Israel proper (ie: without illegal settlements) and how many Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank? Does that tell us something?

17, all but 2 (88%) were civilians (and it does proof the fence is working).
There is no question that more Palestinians died in the GS than Israelis inside Israel but even after the tragedy of this week, vast majority of the dead were NOT innocent civilians.
I'm not going to apologize that the Kasam rockets (which by the way killed many more Palestinians than Israelis) do little damage and don't kill hundreds of Israelis (lucky us) but we have the right to protect ourselves and fight those who fire them (because they do kill) and if these "brave" guys surround themselves with civilians (and they do) when they set them up or they fire from civilians gardens (and they do) civilians will get hurt. Since they don't stop trying and we hit these guys, there are more dead Palestinians. You can't ask for 1:1 death ratio.

Quoting Damirc (Reply 29):
Care to speculate why they don't stop trying to instill terror into the people of Israel?

Are you forgetting that suicide attacks in Israel began with the peace process (as an attempt to stop it) in the mid 90's or do you prefer to ignore that?
You tell me, why did the Palestinians in the GS continue to bomb Israel after the withdrawal? What else did they want? Convince me that killing Israelis is not more important to them then living in quiet and building their country.
Long live the B747
 
TNNH
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:48 am

why are the palestinians firing rockets at israel on a daily basis. the fact that the number of deaths is small is irrelevant (the palestinians are lousy artillerymen) but their intention is clear- to kill and main as many as possible.

why the outrange at israel?
 
rolfen
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 26):

Well, thanks for the info.
I am not a person to entrench myself in a single opinion, I will support and talk about what I think is right.
Unfortunately that is a very hard thing to do in wars, both sides being to blame... can you decide who's more to blame? Can you measure blood and suffering?

I am very surprised by what you said, mostly surprised that we dont see it on the news and that the IDF fails to stop it.

Hopefully one day a final solution (or total exhaustion) will be reached and normalisation will start. Then maybe hopefully during my lifetime will I have the pleasure to visit you and to invite you to my place.

In the meantime, everyone will pitch in the fight for what he think is right.
rolf
 
rolfen
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting TNNH (Reply 33):

why the outrange at israel?

Because the IDF has set up a military regime in the west bank, with curfews and all. Several hundreds (if not thousands) of palestinian die every year at the hands of this regime.
Also thousands of fortified settlements are built within palestinian land, effectively a form of colonisation.

That is without considering the historical factor that started it all, the jewish quasi-invasion of palestine (refer tot the other thread "i am a palestinian refugee")
rolf
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:08 pm

First, thank you for your time.

Quoting Avi (Reply 32):
17, all but 2 (88%) were civilians (and it does proof the fence is working). There is no question that more Palestinians died in the GS than Israelis inside Israel but even after the tragedy of this week, vast majority of the dead were NOT innocent civilians.

While I was against the fence previously, I am supporting it now, because it does seem the only way which could long-term lead to peace (separation until emotions on both sides fade away). The only 'beef' I have with the fence is the fact, that it's deviating far into Palestinian territories at some points (beyond the 1967 borders) and encompassing Israeli settlements in the West Bank - which I completely disagree with. Regarding the dead civilians in the West Bank, you will have to apologize, but I have a hard time believing that 95% of the killed (thousand in the past couple of years) were terrorists. There is ample evidence, that actual terrorists amount to less then 25% of the people killed by the IDF in the occupied territories.

Quote:

I'm not going to apologize that the Kasam rockets (which by the way killed many more Palestinians than Israelis) do little damage and don't kill hundreds of Israelis (lucky us)

I agree with this statement. I also fully appreciate the fact, that Israeli lives are ursurped frequently by rockets from the occupied territories. But you also need to realize, that in the occupied territories Palestinian lives are also ursurped - and that to a far greater extent. The IDF is omnipresent, performs checks at security points within the West Bank (it is only logical that this goes on at the border, but within the WB I fail to see the reason for them, but they do affect regular, non-militant, non-terroristic Palestinians) with people frequently turned away, the IDF also performs raids (and the tactic of going from house to house by tearing a hole in the adjacent walls also lacks any strategic value apart from causing damage where damage doesn't need to be done), people are dragged away and kept imprisoned for periods of time on pure (unfounded) suspicion of being terrorist (for the sole reason of being young and male). You need to realize, that the IDF is not doing a good job of raising pacifism in the occupied territories. If anything, it draws people to the militants, where none of us wants them to be.

Quote:

but we have the right to protect ourselves and fight those who fire them

Agreed. But the keyword here is 'protect'. Not oppress.

Quote:

(because they do kill) and if these "brave" guys surround themselves with civilians (and they do) when they set them up or they fire from civilians gardens (and they do) civilians will get hurt. Since they don't stop trying and we hit these guys, there are more dead Palestinians. You can't ask for 1:1 death ratio.

I understand. But Israel should find another way of dealing with it - giving them no reason to attack Israel proper. The way it's going now, the radicals have little trouble of recruiting willing people with a multitude of arguments. Once there are no reasons, these radicals will have a hard(er?) time fiding willing candidates for the cause. The only change in Palestine can happen from within. But this change can not happen until the radicals are enjoying high support (you have to realize, that for the Palestinians - these radicals are the only ones 'protecting' them - they're the ones avenging the death of their loved ones). I fully understand the Israeli wish for safety - but the way Israel has chosen is not the right one - with violence, arrests and killings Israel will not be able to destroy the radicals - the radical leaders are replaced if they're killed, new 'recruits' are easier to find while they're fueled with anger and driven by revenge. This is not the way.

Quote:
Are you forgetting that suicide attacks in Israel began with the peace process (as an attempt to stop it) in the mid 90's or do you prefer to ignore that?

While it is true, that the second intifada started during the Camp David talks, the analysts tend to agree that it was not driven or started by Arafat, that it's more likely that it was started by radicals who have an obvious reason for rejecting peace (they lose their raison'd'etre). Quite honestly - Israel was not being fair with Palestine - and the offer to Arafat was unfair.

Quote:
You tell me, why did the Palestinians in the GS continue to bomb Israel after the withdrawal?

You seem to be forgetting that the West Bank is still occupied. You can not deal with the Gaza Strip and the West Bank separately. It would be as absurd as the Gaza Strip signing a peace deal with Tel Aviv, but not with Haifa.

Quote:

What else did they want? Convince me that killing Israelis is not more important to them then living in quiet and building their country

How can I convince you of that? It is my belief, but unfortunately, I cannot substaniate a belief.

D.
 
avi
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 34):
Hopefully one day a final solution (or total exhaustion) will be reached and normalisation will start. Then maybe hopefully during my lifetime will I have the pleasure to visit you and to invite you to my place.

Amen.



Damirc,
I will make it short because as all other threads on this subject, it goes nowhere.
If you think the Palestinians from the GS attack Israel because of the WB, you are wrong.
Long live the B747
 
damirc
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RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 37):
If you think the Palestinians from the GS attack Israel because of the WB, you are wrong.

I always like a well argumented statement  Smile

D.
 
TNNH
Posts: 217
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:25 am

RE: Beit Hanun - An Israeli Attempt To Kill Hope?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 35):
Because the IDF has set up a military regime in the west bank, with curfews and all. Several hundreds (if not thousands) of palestinian die every year at the hands of this regime.
Also thousands of fortified settlements are built within palestinian land, effectively a form of colonisation.

That is without considering the historical factor that started it all, the jewish quasi-invasion of palestine (refer tot the other thread "i am a palestinian refugee")

you ignored the context of my post. thanks for waisting our time. i asked "why the outrage at israel" in the context of Palestinian rocket attacks on the Israeli civilian population. Why are you surprised Israel would respond?

TNNH

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