AerospaceFan
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Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:25 pm

I think that those who post here from Europe include some who believe that the United States is remarkably backward in regard to social services, and in part look down their nose at conservatives here who emphasize initiative and self-reliance.

The following is an interesting perspective on European socialism and its possible destiny. It should be a refreshing change from propaganda suggesting that Europe is the wave of the future.

(Excerpt)

Quote:
Europe’s social disaster is unfolding while the rest of the world is booming at its fastest rate in three decades. 2004 and 2005 were record years for China and India, which have double-digit growth rates, and for the USA, which fully enjoys the benefits of globalization. The world’s economy is booming at an average rate of over 4%, but Europe’s growth has stagnated at an inflated 1.5%.

Why is Europe performing so poorly? Europe’s deficient performance is incompatible with its huge potential as the world’s largest single consumer market. Its slow growth contradicts its unequalled industrial productivity and infrastructure, its outstanding education level and labour ethics, its favourable climate, “fair business” morality, and not in the least its tremendous potential provided by the opening of the iron curtain. Obviously Europe’s fairy-tale is not materializing.

Source:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/933
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

What does that have to do with socialism and what do you define as Europe?

Denmark is doing better than ever before! Our economy is extremely strong and we have less than 5% of unemployment.

Furthermore Denmark is a socialist country more than most other countries in Europe.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 1):
What does that have to do with socialism and what do you define as Europe?

What do you mean? Failure? The article was about the failure of socialist programs in Europe.

Here in America, large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
What do you mean? Failure? The article was about the failure of socialist programs in Europe.

Here in America, large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.

Okay and why is that a failure? We don't experience any socialist failure here..?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Okay and why is that a failure? We don't experience any socialist failure here..?

But Denmark is not the whole of Europe. Further, the issues involved may extend toward the future, and not yet be present today.
What's fair is fair.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:41 pm

I don't think "fail" is the proper word.

Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

There is not so much emphasis inEurope in "getting ahead" as there is in having leisure time. This is why there are so many "caravans" (for those in the USA, those cheap camping trailers that you can pull behind your car). The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Cheers
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
But Denmark is not the whole of Europe.

Exactly so don't make it sound like this goes for all of Europe.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Further, the issues involved may extend toward the future, and not yet be present today.

Yeah just like any nation has issues. No country is perfect. We're doing just fine thank you.
 
David L
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
It should be a refreshing change from propaganda suggesting that Europe is the wave of the future.

You do it your way, we'll do it our way. Hardly propaganda or a suggestion that our way is the "way of the Future".

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 2):
large government programs that help the poor are often seen as a form of socialism.

Over here they're seen as just one aspect of socialism. Socialism isn't "a way of dealing with the poor". It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor. The degree and manner in which it's applied varies hugely between European nations.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
Exactly so don't make it sound like this goes for all of Europe.

What am I supposed to say when the article says otherwise? "Will European (Except Danish) Socialism Fail?"?

The title field isn't long enough, for one thing.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:46:33]
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 7):

Over here they're seen as just one aspect of socialism. Socialism isn't "a way of dealing with the poor". It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor. The degree and manner in which it's applied varies hugely between European nations.

Well said!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 7):
It's a whole system that's supposed to make it less likely that anyone becomes poor in the first place while looking after those who are already poor.

Great. And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
What am I supposed to say when the article says otherwise? "Will European (Except Denmark) Socialism Fail?"?

The title field isn't long enough, for one thing.

lol well "will some European socialist countries fail?" for example.

Europe isn't one nation like the US is.
 
David L
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Tongue in cheek, I take it.  Smile

Don't a lot of Americans have trailers and motor homes?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
Great. And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.

Take the article with a grain of salt. Journalists can be wrong too.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
lol well "will some European socialist countries fail?" for example.

That's not what the article said.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:49:05]
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):
It still wouldn't fit. Try it; you'll see.

I just tried. It fitted perfectly. Try it yourself and you'll see.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):

That's not what the article said.

So the author of the article is wrong.

[Edited 2006-11-09 15:50:16]
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 13):
Take the article with a grain of salt. Journalists can be wrong too.

They're not journalists.
What's fair is fair.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

They're not journalists.

Whatever you call them...
 
David L
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
And yet, according to the article I cited, it's failing. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.

In what way? We're much better off, on average, than we were 25 years ago. If you're referring to some Utopia that one or two misguided individuals dreamed of, so what? Most of us are more realistic than that.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

 checkmark 

What's wrong with that? We all live only once and spending your life in some stupid rat race just to get a bigger car, bigger house, bigger TV ... is that the purpose? In the end is this what really makes you happy?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year

Guaranteed by the law. Isn't that great?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

Eh? The only nations in Europe which buy caravans en masse are Scottish and Dutch. I don't know why but I doubt it's because they can't afford jet to Tunisia or Turkey for all inclusive vacation for 400 EUR. It's more some sort of "national trait" same as if you see a motorbike passing you anywhere in Europe 9 out of 10 times it's on German license plates.
 
David L
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
The only nations in Europe which buy caravans en masse are Scottish

 confused 

I've known more English caravan owners than Scottish caravan owners. I hardly ever see one on the roads here.  Smile
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:13 am

Here's a little something for AerospaceFan:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=160726

4 of the 5 best countries to live in are all European.

Thanks to VHVXB for providing the article.

[Edited 2006-11-09 16:18:27]
 
JJJ
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The world’s economy is booming at an average rate of over 4%, but Europe’s growth has stagnated at an inflated 1.5%.

Why is Europe performing so poorly?

If economic growth is your only degree of success, yes, Europe is a failure.

Europe scores rather better in quality of life than most other countries. Does that mean that American capitalism is a failure?

Not your typical black & white situation.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):

European socialism isn't some 7 headed uniform beast as you make it out to be.
What you see as the result of socialism namely poor economic growth in comparison with the rest of the industrialized world is actually more the result of reluctance of the ruling political classes in many European countries to step down from a state run economy (the aviation business being an excellent example with SABENA, ALITALIA and many more others) to a fully privatised economy.
Just look at how much money is still flowing towards black-hole money pits like the railroads, postal company's and so on.

We also lack growth in comparison with the US because we don't finance growth with excessive loans and budgetary suicide to maintain economic growth or current level of spending.

What does work better in the US is the way they fund research projects and how they have set up their funding for university's high schools and the likes.
Also they seem to be more open for the import of foreign brain power into their educational system.
All this leads to the US having cutting edge technology and usually being a market pioneer in many fields

Comparing our growth with the likes of INDIA or CHINA is just ridiculous as they are still underdeveloped countries (economy wise that is),besides having a 10 or 12% growth while your per capita GDP is about 3500$ is not as difficult as having a 3% growth when per capita GDP is at a 10 fold.

The good thing about "our" socialism as you call it is to achieve political and social stability by trying to look out for the weaker and less fortunate in society.
You know, this is a big plus for foreign investments, the more stable a country is the better it will run in the long run.

I was in the US to work for about 20 months (mainly Chicago & the east coast area) and I was always surprised at how big the differences where between rich and poor,
For instance over here you won't see anyone at the end of the cashier packing your bags while being 60+ years old.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
part look down their nose at conservatives here who emphasize initiative and self-reliance.

In my eyes that is just a cheap slogan, as if the rest of the world or the progressives in contrary to your conservatives don't emphasize on initiative and self reliance.

I was also under the impression that you conservatives, dare I say Republicans
where all for less government (you know part of being self reliant) and look at what has happened in that regard the last couple of years in that field in the US and UK.

I can never get rid of that uneasy feeling I get when I hear people (mostly the richer , better well off ones) speaking about being more self reliant, It usually is nothing more than an egocentric explanation for not having to pay for contributions for the unfortunate ones.
It's like hearing the likes of PARIS HILTON saying "everybody can make it in this world if you want it hard enough", funny thing is that they usually start believing it themselves.
[edit post]
 
Andreas
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
caravans" (for those in the USA, those cheap camping trailers that you can pull behind your car). The average European gets 4-6 weeks of vacation each year, but does not have enough money to stay in a motel/hotel for anything close to that long of a time (high cost of living, taxes..) many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

That was absolutely hilarious...it took me minutes to calm down again..and I'm still giggling!

but on a serious sidenote: Erm...no, that's not true...as a matter of fact we do have enough money, even the Dutch, so THEY (and it's them alone) just love to drive along German motorways with their caravans as rolling chicanes, must have something to do with football, I suspect each and every Dutch above 18 does own 5 caravans, one to drive himself, 4 more to run on remote control!

But it really was a very funny way of describing European holidays Big grin
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oldeuropean
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:57 am

Some here neither have a clue about Europe nor about socialism.

Axel

[Edited 2006-11-09 16:58:40]
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Toulouse
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
I don't think "fail" is the proper word.

Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

Very well put DLPMMM.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
many cannot even afford that for a week, so they huge numbers purchase these "caravans" and head south.

That I think is a bit of an exageration, to say the least.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21):
4 of the 5 best countries to live in are all European.

Very true. Great to see my native Ireland there in 4th place!

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 23):

Very interesting post.

Aerospacefan, do you spend much of your time searching for articles to post here on a.net the criticise or question Europe (especially France), or is it just my imagination?

Some other statistics for you to think about, yet as with all statistic, from the research I've done they vary somewhat depending on who did them, but this seems to be the one that repeats itself the most. GDP (ppp) per capital in the world in 2005:
1. Luxembourg.
2. Norway.
3. Iceland.
4. Switzerland.
5. Ireland.
6. Denmark.
7. Qatar.
8. United States of America.
9. Sweden.
10.Netherlands.

So considering GDP per capita, of the top 10 in the world are 8 countries, of which the top seven are all European countries; Makes me wonder if we're really doing things so badly...
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DrDeke
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The following is an interesting perspective on European socialism and its possible destiny. It should be a refreshing change from propaganda suggesting that Europe is the wave of the future.

How about this approach:

What difference does it make to anyone except the richest one or two per cent of people in the country whether the economy grows at 1.5% or 4%. (Yes, that's a rhetorical question.) It's a well-known fact that at least in America, the richest 1% of the population control well over 50% of the wealth.

The "American Dream" seems to be to desperately try to gobble up a couple hundred thousand dollars per year of that wealth, a task at which most people will never succeed.

Maybe in Europe, more people are happy to enjoy a reasonable standard of living and don't feel it necessary to beat their brains out and snub the workers in order to try to eke out that extra money to pay for "luxury" items like SUVs and plasma TVs.

-DrDeke
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 27):

Maybe in Europe, more people are happy to enjoy a reasonable standard of living and don't feel it necessary to beat their brains out and snub the workers in order to try to eke out that extra money to pay for "luxury" items like SUVs and plasma TVs.

Reasonable standard of living? Since when? Again you're generalising too much. As you see above, a handful of countries are doing better than the US economy wise.
Who says we don't have SUVs and plasma tvs? We do! A lot of us actually!

and as I've pointed out before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm

" HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS
1st - Denmark
2nd - Switzerland
3rd - Austria
4th - Iceland
5th - The Bahamas
23rd - USA
41st - UK
90th - Japan
178th - Burundi
"
And in the end, isn't happiness all that matters?

[Edited 2006-11-09 17:33:45]
 
DrDeke
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):

Reasonable standard of living? Since when? Again you're generalising too much. As you see above, a handful of countries are doing better than the US economy wise.

Who says we don't have SUVs and plasma tvs? We do! A lot of us actually!

Yeah, I didn't really mean to say that I thought European countries were or were not wealthier than the US.

I was going along the lines of AerospaceFan's "worst case" scenario, and saying that even if strong social programs do dampen the economy of a country, it might very well still be worthwhile to have them if the people in the country are of the mindset I described.

If in fact strong social programs do not hold back a country's economy (and I do not see why they necessarily should), then it's all the better!

-DrDeke
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 29):
Yeah, I didn't really mean to say that I thought European countries were or were not wealthier than the US.

I was going along the lines of AerospaceFan's "worst case" scenario, and saying that even if strong social programs do dampen the economy of a country, it might very well still be worthwhile to have them if the people in the country are of the mindset I described.

Okay. Sorry I misunderstood your post then.
 
DrDeke
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
Okay. Sorry I misunderstood your post then.

No problem. What I was actually trying to get at (although I didn't address it directly) is summed up very well by your quote below:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 28):

And in the end, isn't happiness all that matters?

-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 31):
No problem. What I was actually trying to get at (although I didn't address it directly) is summed up very well by your quote below:

I'm glad to see that we agree then  Smile
 
Banco
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
I've known more English caravan owners than Scottish caravan owners. I hardly ever see one on the roads here

Hardly surprising, since the Trabants that are all you Scots can afford couldn't even pull the towbar...
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BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:54 am

Socialism in the true sense of the word is dying off in Europe. Technically Britain and Portugal have "socialist" governments, but the ideology has changed significantly. These governments are continuing privatization programs for example, whereas 20 years ago they were still keen on nationalising things.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 26):
1. Luxembourg.
2. Norway.
3. Iceland.
4. Switzerland.
5. Ireland.
6. Denmark.
7. Qatar.
8. United States of America.
9. Sweden.
10.Netherlands.

So considering GDP per capita, of the top 10 in the world are 8 countries, of which the top seven are all European countries; Makes me wonder if we're really doing things so badly...

Well lets not get too carried away, from the Irish FinFacts website of GNI (gross national Income) there are quite a few European countries near the bottom too: (I do however think that Ireland has done extremely well and invested their EU money wisely - as someone here said recently "whilst Ireland invested in education, we (Portugal) invested in concrete" which may explain why we're at #32.)

Top 10:
Luxembourg 1
Norway 2
Switzerland 3
United States 4
Denmark 5
Iceland 6
Japan 7
Sweden 8
Ireland 9
United Kingdom 10

European Countries Only:
Finland 12
Austria 13
Netherlands 15
Belgium 16
Germany 17
France 18
Italy 23
Spain 25
Cyprus 27
Greece 29
Slovenia 31
Portugal 32
Malta 34
Czech Republic 37
Hungary 39
Croatia 45
Slovak Republic 46
Poland 48
Lithuania 49
Latvia 50
Russian Federation 69
Romania 72
Bulgaria 74
Serbia and Montenegro 77
Macedonia, FYR 82
Belarus 91
Albania 92
Bosnia and Herzegovina 93
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:37 am

I want to thank everyone from both continents for their very kind and comprehensive replies. They are most interesting. May I address a few comments individually first, and then I will make a more general remark.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 5):
Europeans have a totally different outlook on life than people in the USA. Europeans work to live, while Americans live to work.

That may be one way to look at it. However, there is the question of economic (not ecological) sustainability to consider. Wouldn't you agree that the authors of the article -- experts in their field -- were quite grim about the future of Europe, even though it seems that Europeans may be happy at the moment? The question they raise seems to be whether Europe is living in a "fool's paradise", so to speak.

Quoting David L (Reply 18):
If you're referring to some Utopia that one or two misguided individuals dreamed of, so what? Most of us are more realistic than that.

I think that the article was much more detailed and grounded in economic facts and figures than any utopian fantasy would normally be.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 22):
Europe scores rather better in quality of life than most other countries. Does that mean that American capitalism is a failure?

But there is a balance to consider: Present quality of life should not come at the expense of future.

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 23):
I was also under the impression that you conservatives, dare I say Republicans where all for less government (you know part of being self reliant) and look at what has happened in that regard the last couple of years in that field in the US and UK.

It's true that the GOP has not be particularly faithful to the Reagan Revolution.

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 25):
Some here neither have a clue about Europe nor about socialism.

That may be so, but I think that the authors of the article would.

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 27):
Maybe in Europe, more people are happy to enjoy a reasonable standard of living and don't feel it necessary to beat their brains out and snub the workers in order to try to eke out that extra money to pay for "luxury" items like SUVs and plasma TVs.

Again, the question is not just how much material goods citizens enjoy now, but how they are able to sustain this level of enjoyment.

More generally, the issue may be that Europe is faced with a future that will tax its resources beyond its limits and that will force its young to subsidize the old to an untenable degree. Growth to this extent is not a luxury, but a requirement so that future generations can live the life that their parents and grandparents did.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
More generally, the issue may be that Europe is faced with a future that will tax its resources beyond its limits and that will force its young to subsidize the old to an untenable degree.

You've been told before about generalising about "Europe" and yet you still persist in doing so. I'm going to start a thread about how the Americas are managing the rainforests and see how you like it.  Yeah sure
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
You've been told before about generalising about "Europe" and yet you still persist in doing so.

I'm not going to second-guess what the authors of the article in question wrote.
What's fair is fair.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
I'm going to start a thread about how the Americas are managing the rainforests and see how you like it.

Water of a duck's back. He'll just blame the three-toed sloths for being idle socialist layabouts who have brought this upon themselves, and chastise the Amazon pygmies for failing to adhere to traditional Christian values, and not voting Republican.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
David L
Posts: 8548
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
I think that the article was much more detailed and grounded in economic facts and figures than any utopian fantasy would normally be.

The fact that things are not "as good as they could have been" is not the same as failure. Yes, there's a lot of bureaucratic waste. Yes, some social programmes cost a lot of money. No, some social programmes don't achieve their aims. And yet, here we are, happier and better off than we were 25 years ago... in this small part of Europe, at least.

Failure? Thank you, sir! May I have another, sir?

Quoting Banco (Reply 33):
Hardly surprising, since the Trabants that are all you Scots can afford couldn't even pull the towbar...

I must need glasses. Perhaps those bumps in the road I keep encountering are Trabants, after all.
 
Banco
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting David L (Reply 39):
Perhaps those bumps in the road I keep encountering are Trabants, after all.

Could be pissed Glaswegians.  Wink

If so, I fully approve of your policy of going straight over them.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
David L
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:19 am

Statistically, in Edinburgh they're more likely to be Australian, Irish, Polish or English.  Smile
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:28 am

Yah know we do a lot of work with a company in The Netherlands...I used to get frustrated at how they always had these long holidays and wondererd what was wrong with them....But you know.....We send our work there.....AND they are taking the time off...So who is laughing at who? Us with our 3 weeks off a year or them with 6 weeks off and still doing our work...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 42):
Us with our 3 weeks off a year or them with 6 weeks off and still doing our work...

But the question remains whether they are bequeathing an economy to their children that will stand the test of time.
What's fair is fair.
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:59 am

America has a way of running its society and economy.

The Europeans usually choose a different way to run their societies and economies.

Neither is right or wrong - it is based on the values each have.

It is childish to argue or imply that one is better than the other, when each is remarkably successful based on the values of their people.

Cairo
 
AerospaceFan
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
It is childish to argue or imply that one is better than the other, when each is remarkably successful based on the values of their people.

But we live in an interconnected world. Did you not get the memo?

Thus, the U.S. has a right to be concerned if, as seems possible, Europe's allegedly slothful economies might invite possibility of a global slowdown if they are left on their own.
What's fair is fair.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 43):
But the question remains whether they are bequeathing an economy to their children that will stand the test of time.

Is the USA? Guess only time will tell.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2121
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 45):
Thus, the U.S. has a right to be concerned if, as seems possible, Europe's allegedly slothful economies might invite possibility of a global slowdown if they are left on their own.

I think we are beyond that now. The world will not slow down on account of the European Union. There are now enough economic drivers around the world so as to largely negate the influence of any single area.

This is exemplified by the economic growth over the last 2 years in spite of record oil price hikes. In past decades, these oil price increases alone would have started a world wide recession, yet we have seen world wide economic growth.

My earlier comments about the caravans was only half tongue in cheek, as there is a very real element of truth to it as well. Many in Europe spend a large part of their holiday painting their house, fixing the car, fixing the pets,.......but it is true that most of the Netherlands lives in caravans in France for July.

Europe has the same problems with the poor and disenfranchised, those that say the socialist policies have been a remedy are fooling themselves. You need only to look at the youth unrest in France last summer as an example. I have seen the homeless in Europe as well as the USA.

What europe has engineered is a larger middle class at the expense of shrinking the lower class, there is still the same poor. A shop clerk in Switzerland may earn USD$30,000/year, but when taxes and living expenses are taken into account, their earnings are still the same as the USD$18,000 Wal-Mart cashier.

Europe's decisions on how to run their economies are Europe's alone, as are the USA's, or Canada's, or Brasil's.... Each country is it's own economic laboratory that we can study and learn from.

If a country other than your own makes what you think is a bad decision, then you should be happy, as you and your country will be able to learn from their mistake without having to go through the pain yourselves.


Enough from me for now,

Cheers all.
 
Andreas
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 47):
but it is true that most of the Netherlands lives in caravans in France for July.

No, on German Autobahns..trust me on that one!  grumpy 
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
JJJ
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RE: Will European Socialism Fail?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:41 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
But there is a balance to consider: Present quality of life should not come at the expense of future.

Apart from some columnist with an obvious agenda (that is, 'ours is bigger than yours') no one can agree with you here.

Adjustments are being done in some countries (cuts in some countries, increases in others) but on the whole, everything is and will remain very much the same.

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