9V
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Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:29 am

Friends of the New York senator say she’s “99 per cent sure” she will stand for the 2008 election as the world’s most powerful leader.

Since I know absolutely nothing about how the American political voting system works I just wondered what all you guys on the other side of the pond thought. Does she stand a real chance? Is it likely? Would you like to see a woman president for a change?

 Confused
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:36 am

It would be fantastic to see a woman president of the United States. Here we've had two great ones, Mary Robinson, and the current incumbent Mary McAleese. Mary Robinson gave the office a shot in arm, and I reckon Hillary Clinton would be enormously popular around the world, just the way her husband was.

A woman POTUS would be a great thing to see.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:40 am

Surely it would be unconstitutional. She's already served two terms in office.  Smile
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halls120
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Since I know absolutely nothing about how the American political voting system works I just wondered what all you guys on the other side of the pond thought. Does she stand a real chance? Is it likely? Would you like to see a woman president for a change?

At this point in time, I think she has the nomination locked up, and will win unless the republicans get wise and nominate a centrist who can beat her.

I don't care if a president is male or female. I just want a competent leader.

Hillary will be a disaster, IMO. She is smarter than Bill, but far more arrogant. Despite her carefully crafted current portrayal as a centrist, which will get her elected, she is a reliable lefty at heart. During her "first" two terms (see below), her acolytes were the most difficult to deal with by far. A typical Bill appointee was an even handed pragmatist. Hillary appointees were wild eyed true liberal believers who couldn't be told anything, because they already knew it all.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 2):
Surely it would be unconstitutional. She's already served two terms in office.

 rotfl 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cfalk
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:53 am

She's a pretty formidable character. But there are 2 problems that I see.

1) She's very polarizing.I saw a poll recently where something like 47% of the population would not vote for her, no way, no how. John McCain and Rudy Guliani both scored only about 30% on the same question.

2) She has a history of flip-flopping on issues all over the place, depending on her audience. She's pro-choice one day, pro-life the next. Personally, I don't trust someone who won't stand by their principles, come hell or high water.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
9V
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
I saw a poll recently where something like 47% of the population would not vote for her

Well, I seem to remember this guy being very unpopular at one point but I see he got back in!

 
IFEMaster
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 5):
I seem to remember this guy being very unpopular at one point but I see he got back in!

Uhhh...did you see his competition? It's no surprise.

And that's where the Republicans are going to have to come up trumps. They need someone extraordinary to run in 2008 to have a hope of beating Hilary, and frankly I don't see anyone who could.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
RJdxer
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:28 am

The far left of her party has abandoned her since she issued tepid support for the war. She can run, but she will either lose in the primaries where you have to satisfy the extreme members of your party or she will have to retract a lot of the things she has already said and will look like Mr. Flipflop himself. Either way if she makes it past the primaries she will then again have to move to the center to stand a chance of winning and by then the GOP nominee would have all the ammo needed to riddle her with her change of positions in the debates.

But one thing is for sure, we wouldn't have to worry about her having an affair while in office, who would touch that? About the only one uglier in her family is her daughter.

[Edited 2006-11-09 19:29:17]
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
Hillary will be a disaster, IMO. She is smarter than Bill, but far more arrogant. Despite her carefully crafted current portrayal as a centrist, which will get her elected, she is a reliable lefty at heart. During her "first" two terms (see below), her acolytes were the most difficult to deal with by far. A typical Bill appointee was an even handed pragmatist. Hillary appointees were wild eyed true liberal believers who couldn't be told anything, because they already knew it all.

You are an archtypical right-winger. To me, Hillary was and is a person of the left-centre and HER appointees were moderate left-centre liberals, while the ones of her husband were boring right-centre folks.
-
 
Confuscius
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:46 am

"I seem to remember this guy being very unpopular at one point but I see he got back in!"

Yep, he morphed into a Democrat. If you can't beat 'em...join 'em.





No, this in not Arnold but Hillary.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
bushpilot
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:05 am

I would like to see a female President. But I dont think Hillary will be it. As was said before, she is much to polarizing. I am a left centrist. I wont vote for her. She has to many skeletons in the closet. I see her has riding someone else's coattails(like the current PotUS) into office and I despise that. Also the whole carpetbagger issue still does bother me. I dont like her methods at all.
If she wins the Democratic primary it will be another 4 years for the GOP holding 1600 Penn. Ave. She is a character that is not really that popular with women.
I want a female President. I think a woman can do just as good a job as a man, just not her. Plus, we dont need any more time with Slick Willy as the First Man.
 
EasternSon
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:12 am

Coming from someone who is a Democrat, an unashamed defender of Bill Clinton and his Presidency, and someone who is constantly being labeled as a "liberal," no, I cannot give her my vote.

She was given eight years to work on healthcare and got next to nowhere with it, when it was one of the few responsibilities she was given. She underestimated the challenges and duffed it when it could have been done.

Sorry, I'll have to back McCain or Obama or somebody else.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 11):
She was given eight years to work on healthcare and got next to nowhere with it, when it was one of the few responsibilities she was given. She underestimated the challenges and duffed it when it could have been done.

.-
a simple and easy question : did she have the parliamentary majorities in boht houses of the congress required to push through socially progressive modern legislation ?
-
 
EasternSon
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
did she have the parliamentary majorities in boht houses

I'm not entirely sure that she did, maybe someone else can give you a more definite answer. But, Congress in both of President Clinton's terms worked very well with the White House, allowing him to pass a great deal of legislation.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:23 am

Clinton-Obama in '08!!!! What a fantastic ticket that would be!
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 2):
Surely it would be unconstitutional. She's already served two terms in office

 rotfl 

That was excellent.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
At this point in time, I think she has the nomination locked up, and will win unless the republicans get wise and nominate a centrist who can beat her.

"At this point in time" doesn't mean squat. We'll know more in about a year, maybe less. We've had people come out of nowhere before and become the front runner. Lots of time to go.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 7):
The far left of her party has abandoned her since she issued tepid support for the war.

That may be the best thing for her. I even heard Limbaugh (gasp!) say that anyone running in '08 had better be more toward the center, and I agree with him (gasp!) on that one.

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 11):
She was given eight years to work on healthcare and got next to nowhere with it, when it was one of the few responsibilities she was given

The problem was-and Bill Clinton learned from this-that she shouldn't have been given the responsibility in the first place. She was First Lady, not a government official or presidential appointee.

And fair or not, that will be something that dogs her in any run to the White House.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
9V
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 11):

It's interesting that someone who is a Democrat still won't vote for her.  Smile

I guess here in the UK there are many people who would vote for anyone that was Labour (I guess the same as Democrat) rather than elect a Conservative (Republican) regardless of personality but simply because they would not want a Conservative government. I guess the US is different.  Confused
 
RJdxer
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 14):
Clinton-Obama in '08!!!! What a fantastic ticket that would be!

Every bit as good as Mondale and Ferraro in 1984.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
bushpilot
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
a simple and easy question : did she have the parliamentary majorities in boht houses of the congress required to push through socially progressive modern legislation ?

No she didnt, well at least not for the final 6 years of the Clinton era. I would say part of her failure on healthcare was that the GOP more or less decided not to work with her. But her plan was way to expensive, and her approach and personality is what doesnt do it for me.

As a side note, A male with the same personality traits and characteristics would be considered a go-getter, prompt, aggressive etc. Generally positive things to say. If it is a female, she is a pushy bitch. I am guilty of often thinking this way myself, and am certainly not proud of the fact.

I think a female President would be a great thing for this country. Just not this pushy bitch.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 17):
Every bit as good as Mondale and Ferraro in 1984

Except that Clinton/Obama are much more dynamic, perhaps much smarter, and are not running against an incumbent Reagan.... so you're right... not only every bit as good... but also much better.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
EasternSon
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
I would say part of her failure on healthcare was that the GOP more or less decided not to work with her. But her plan was way to expensive, and her approach and personality is what doesnt do it for me.

I think that was, and still is, one of her biggest obstacles. People who don't like her REALLY don't like her. People don't like her style and see her as arrogant and stubborn.

I also don't like the fact that she tries to push herself off as a New Yorker when everyone knows she's a carpet bagger. It's disingenuous.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 20):
I also don't like the fact that she tries to push herself off as a New Yorker when everyone knows she's a carpet bagger. It's disingenuous.

Right....because we all know that in this country, just like in China, we cannot move to a different state for a job... or for whatever reason we like.

Are you a New Yorker? I've lived here for 5 years.... less than Hillary... and I consider myself a New Yorker. But that's irrelevant... the only relevant fact is she won 67% of the vote in New York. New Yorkers want her representing the state of New York... regardless of your opinion.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 21):

No we can move, and if New Yorkers want to elect her that is fine, what Im saying is that if she runs for President that will be one major thing holding her back. She isnt a New Yorker, she is DC elitist. She moved to the first state she thought she could elected in. Her moving to NY wasnt about serving the good people of NY. It was about shoring up her own personal power in DC.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
That may be the best thing for her

Unfortunately not, to get into the title fight you have to win the preliminaries and you can't do that unless you satisfy the far left of the democratic wing and that turns around to bite you in the main election.

BTW, dems win in Ohio, dems win Congress. You ready to have the one two punch applied to your paycheck?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 19):
Except that Clinton/Obama are much more dynamic, perhaps much smarter, and are not running against an incumbent Reagan....

Worse, they will be running with Bill Clinton's baggage to include that nightmare national healthcare plan she came up with that would have nationalized 1/7th of the economy. She is Hugo Chavez's dream girl.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 22):
She isnt a New Yorker, she is DC elitist.

Your theory would be correct...except that she's originally from Chicago and spent several years in Arkansas before Bill got elected to the White House. I think the fact they moved AWAY from the DC area after his presidency shows just the opposite of your theory. And picking Westchester County as a residence is something many people aspire to do... it's NICE!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
Worse, they will be running with Bill Clinton's baggage to include that nightmare national healthcare plan she came up with that would have nationalized 1/7th of the economy.

Bill Clinton's "baggage" didn't seem to be an issue in this election... quite the opposite... he was all over the media campaigning for folks. And no one...certainly not the current administration... has come up with anything better regarding healthcare, and its costs continue to skyrocket. Seems to me if designing a national healthcare plan were so easy, it would have been done by now... but it isn't, and the Republicans certainly can't say they tried. She at least TRIED. Some folks... actually a lot of folks... would say they would rather have 1/7th of the economy nationalized if it means access to healthcare... than no access at all.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
EasternSon
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 22):
No we can move, and if New Yorkers want to elect her that is fine, what Im saying is that if she runs for President that will be one major thing holding her back. She isnt a New Yorker, she is DC elitist. She moved to the first state she thought she could elected in. Her moving to NY wasnt about serving the good people of NY. It was about shoring up her own personal power in DC.

Yeah, what he said!

Seriously though, TWFirst, it's more about the fact that she tries to make believe she's been there all along. She goes to Yankees games and sits there with her brand new hat on, and then has the audacity to say she's been a fan all her life? She doesn't care about the Yankees or anything else in NY. She went there to get elected. Why do you think she chose to go there instead of running in Arkansas?

You're probably more of a New Yorker than her, in the truest sense. You walk the streets, mingle with the people and love NY for what is is. She loves NY for what it can do for her.
"The only people for me are the mad ones...." Jack Kerouac
 
RJdxer
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
Bill Clinton's "baggage" didn't seem to be an issue in this election...

Running for Senator is much different than running for President.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
he was all over the media campaigning for folks.

He was? The only time I saw him this election cycle is when he blew a gasket on Fox.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
And no one...certainly not the current administration... has come up with anything better regarding healthcare,

Yes they have, it's called medical savings accounts.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
Some folks... actually a lot of folks...

The day it happens, we cease to be the America that the founding fathers set up. That being a nation with a federal government that is very limited in its scope and size.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 24):
than no access at all.

Anyone truly in need has always had access to healthcare.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 25):
Seriously though, TWFirst, it's more about the fact that she tries to make believe she's been there all along. She goes to Yankees games and sits there with her brand new hat on, and then has the audacity to say she's been a fan all her life? She doesn't care about the Yankees or anything else in NY. She went there to get elected. Why do you think she chose to go there instead of running in Arkansas?

You're probably more of a New Yorker than her, in the truest sense. You walk the streets, mingle with the people and love NY for what is is. She loves NY for what it can do for her.

Perhaps.... however.... she's worked her ASS off for New York... and you might say that it's really for herself... but it doesn't change the effect. I doubt many people would say they believe politicians in general do what they do for completely unselfish reasons... so she's no different. But New Yorkers aren't stupid... they can see right through disingenuousness... BELIEVE ME. I think the fact she is immensely popular here is not insignificant...especially her popularity upstate. Plus the fact, New Yorkers believe New York is the center of the world and that everyone naturally loves the city and the Yankees... it doesn't register as false to the public that Hill "loves" the Yankees.... New Yorkers think it's natural to love the Yankees... that all baseball fans love the Yankees and they're America's team.

Personally, I can't stand the Yankees  Wink
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
checkraiser
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 25):
You're probably more of a New Yorker than her, in the truest sense. You walk the streets, mingle with the people and love NY for what is is. She loves NY for what it can do for her.

Very well put.

To answer the question at hand - I don't think she'll make it through the primary. But if she does, women would turn out in droves. If that's the case I sure as hell hope the GOP puts up some female opposistion.
N1120A is a camel-fucking terrorist.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 26):
The day it happens, we cease to be the America that the founding fathers set up. That being a nation with a federal government that is very limited in its scope and size.

 Big grin Big grin Big grin We're already WAYYYYY past being a nation with a federal government that is very limited in its scope and size.... just compare the size and scope of the government today with its size and scope of 6 years ago!!!!!!!!!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 26):
Anyone truly in need has always had access to healthcare

Spoken like someone who has health insurance. Come to NYC buddy.... talk to the working poor.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 29):
We're already WAYYYYY past being a nation with a federal government that is very limited in its scope and size.... just compare the size and scope of the government today with its size and scope of 6 years ago!!!!!!!!!

Yes, but nationalizing 1/7th of the nations economy and taking away a persons freedom to choose the doctor and type of care they will recieve is the way more than anything the Constitution stipulates governemnt can do.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 29):
Spoken like someone who has health insurance. Come to NYC buddy.... talk to the working poor.

Go to a public hospital. You will see signs all over the emergency room stating that you cannot be denied medical care due to your ability to pay. Medicaid, Medicare, along with a whole host of other government programs both federal and state are available to the needy. What you want to do is give what I work hard to afford and give it to those that don't or won't. What you end up doing in the long run is ruining healthcare for everyone. You didn't learn anything from 30 years of unlimited welfare.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
halls120
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 3):
Hillary will be a disaster, IMO. She is smarter than Bill, but far more arrogant. Despite her carefully crafted current portrayal as a centrist, which will get her elected, she is a reliable lefty at heart. During her "first" two terms (see below), her acolytes were the most difficult to deal with by far. A typical Bill appointee was an even handed pragmatist. Hillary appointees were wild eyed true liberal believers who couldn't be told anything, because they already knew it all.

You are an archtypical right-winger. To me, Hillary was and is a person of the left-centre and HER appointees were moderate left-centre liberals, while the ones of her husband were boring right-centre folks

Did you work in the Clinton Administration? I did, for one year. So while you might not like the conclusions I reach, on this issue at least they are well informed.

I'm a moderate, BTW, your uninformed attempts to paint me with the right wing brush notwithstanding.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Halcyon
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:01 am

Personally, that woman is one of the few women that you can actually castrate.
Other than that, no, she would not be president. Ask people what they think of her. It's either that she's the devil or a complete angel. People have such heated feelings....Hillary's the thing civil wars are made of.  Big grin

Lucas  Smile

PS-Please don't be offended at anything I said.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
Go to a public hospital. You will see signs all over the emergency room stating that you cannot be denied medical care due to your ability to pay.

HA! OK... I'll go to the public hospital if you come with me, bleeding, and say you don't have any insurance, and we time how long it is until you're seen, we'll record by whom, and we'll see how long you're treated. Better yet... let's not even wait until an emergency arises... let's go to a doctor for some preventive care so that we don't have to go to that public hospital's emergency room for treatment, which costs an astronomical amount, which is already passed on to the taxpayer when the patient can't pay. Oh wait, no doctor will see us if we don't have insurance or cash up front. Guess we'll just have to wait to see a doctor until we go into a diabetic coma or our cancer has progressed to the point to where we're terminal.

I experienced what it's like to not have insurance and saw how people are treated two summers ago, when I was in the "Cobra" window... I suddenly got MRSA, and was prescribed an antibiotic that costs $1000/week.... needed to start taking it ASAP. MRSA is SERIOUS and can be fatal. Didn't have the cash... to process Cobra took a few days... the pharmacy's response? Sorry... too bad, so sad. Options? Was told I could "apply for welfare"... !!! Fortunately, I was able to borrow some money to get the medication I needed.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
You didn't learn anything from 30 years of unlimited welfare.

This isn't "unlimited welfare". We're not talking about paying people to do nothing for as long as they want. Healthcare should be a fundamental right... not a luxury. People should have access to the same quality of healthcare, regardless of class. The healthcare system is already broken. Healthcare plans already limit which doctors you can see and the type of treatment they'll pay for.

Bottom line is the Constitution was drafted when healthcare was affordable and available to everyone.... but besides that, we were founded on the principle that everyone is fundamentally entitled to "LIFE, LIBERTY & THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS".... I believe healthcare falls under the "life" category.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 16):
It's interesting that someone who is a Democrat still won't vote for her

I can't either. I am a true liberal Dem, work for candidates, and give to campaigns, but I can't give my vote to her.

I don't like her, and it is a deep resentment....perhaps irrational, but I could not in good conscience support her.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
I believe healthcare falls under the "life" category.



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
This isn't "unlimited welfare". We're not talking about paying people to do nothing for as long as they want. Healthcare should be a fundamental right... not a luxury. People should have access to the same quality of healthcare, regardless of class

That is your belief, that does not make it a right, and it does not mean that everyone else must believe the same as you.

I personally do not think that everybody has a right to the same level of health care. Does everybody have a right to free cosmetic surgery? for a cleft lip?, boob job?, liposuction?, glasses?, prescription sun glasses?, dental?, hemorrhoid ointment?, birth control?, wart remover?, circumcision?, halitosis treatments?, anal warts treatments?, free viagra for all?

Where do we draw the line? I'm sure that you have a particular place that you would draw the line, but I think I would draw that line in a different place.

Back to the original topic, Hillary will have no chance in the general elections because of her high negative ratings among voters, but she can probably win the Dem primary.

And to MAF, the clintons had control of both houses of congress for the first 2 years of their administration, and they were in large part why the dems lost control of congress.
 
piercey
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RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Would you like to see a woman president for a change?

Yes I would, but Hillary is not the one I want.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 14):
Clinton-Obama in '08!!!! What a fantastic ticket that would be!

Yeah, after Clinton is assassinated  duck 
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 35):
That is your belief, that does not make it a right, and it does not mean that everyone else must believe the same as you.

It is not just my belief... millions of other folks believe the same thing... but you are correct... you do not have to believe the same thing as the vast majority of the industrializied, Western democracies if you do not want to.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 35):
I personally do not think that everybody has a right to the same level of health care. Does everybody have a right to free cosmetic surgery? for a cleft lip?, boob job?, liposuction?, glasses?, prescription sun glasses?, dental?, hemorrhoid ointment?, birth control?, wart remover?, circumcision?, halitosis treatments?, anal warts treatments?, free viagra for all?

Where do we draw the line? I'm sure that you have a particular place that you would draw the line, but I think I would draw that line in a different place.

In regard to your examples above, the line is already WELL drawn by private insurance... so the government wouldn't need to start from scratch.. there is already precedent.


By the way... do you have health insurance? Is it from your employer? If so, and your employer decided to stop offering it as a benefit, what would you do? Do you believe your employer is obligated to provide it? If so, why? What if your employer stopped subsidizing the benefit and made you pay the full price of the insurance? What would you do?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
Fortunately, I was able to borrow some money to get the medication I needed.

And there you go, solved your problem and did not need to involve the government. That's called taking personal responsibility for your own life. Now if we can just teach that to several other million people who think that the government is one big money tree we might get somewhere.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
Healthcare should be a fundamental right... not a luxury.

It is not a fundamental right, it is a privilege you have to work for. That is of course unless you want to live in a socialist country.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
People should have access to the same quality of healthcare, regardless of class.

The day you do that, the level of all healthcare will drop for everyone. There is a reason Michael J Fox lives in, and became, an American. There is a reason that Saudi royalty and other members of royal families from the middle east come here to the United States to get their healthcare needs taken care of. You don't see them going to countries with socialized medicine now do you?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
Healthcare plans already limit which doctors you can see and the type of treatment they'll pay for.

But you still get to choose which plan you'll take which gives you different levels of choice in your care. A one for all government plan won't do that.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
Bottom line is the Constitution was drafted when healthcare was affordable and available to everyone....

Tell that to those out on the frontier. In addition, healthcare back then certainly was not in the league it is now. But, to give you credit, healthcare was generally affordable in this country and doctors still made house calls in many places in this country, right up until the middle 60's. Care to take a guess at what started at just about the same time doctors stopped doing house calls and the price of medicine started climbing?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
I believe healthcare falls under the "life" category.

I don't. If that is the case then someone who smokes for 50 years when it has been known for 40+ years that it is tremendously bad for you has no business getting any money from the government for their healthcare nor any settlement through the courts for their condition. The same goes with aids, a completely preventable disease.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
vast majority of the industrialized, Western democracies

I don't live in the mythical vast majority of industrialized western nations and I don't want too. I live in America.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
By the way... do you have health insurance?

Yes

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
Is it from your employer?

No, my wife's, they have a better plan at a cheaper price. We got to choose between the two, something we would not be able to do if the government ran things.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
If so, and your employer decided to stop offering it as a benefit, what would you do?

If I was single or my wife didn't work I would either look for another job or open an MSA and get my own insurance.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
Do you believe your employer is obligated to provide it?

No

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
If so, why?

I am employee of the company. I consider myself no more important than any vendor to the company. I have the option to leave at anytime, the company should have the option to decide what they are willing to pay for my services.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
What if your employer stopped subsidizing the benefit and made you pay the full price of the insurance? What would you do?

See above.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2128
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
It is not just my belief... millions of other folks believe the same thing... but you are correct... you do not have to believe the same thing as the vast majority of the industrializied, Western democracies if you do not want to.

Not a convincing argument. Source please? I believe this is called projection by psycologists.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 37):
By the way... do you have health insurance? Is it from your employer? If so, and your employer decided to stop offering it as a benefit, what would you do? Do you believe your employer is obligated to provide it? If so, why? What if your employer stopped subsidizing the benefit and made you pay the full price of the insurance? What would you do?

Yes I have insurance, no it is not supplied by my employer, your third question is mootm as I already provide my own, No I do not believe my employer should be obligated to provide insurance. My employer is obligated to pay me for my efforts according to my agreement with them. I already pay the full price of insurance.

Why should someone who is giving you money to provide a service be forced to become your parent and see to your health care and retirement. Quit being a child and take responsibility for your own actions and decisions.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
a simple and easy question : did she have the parliamentary majorities in boht houses of the congress required to push through socially progressive modern legislation

Why did it have to be "socially progressive" - a euphamism for income redistribution/welfare statism? That was why it didn't pass. There are health care solutions that would not require government participation. Switzerland's health care provides 100% coverage and is 100% private, for instance.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
This isn't "unlimited welfare". We're not talking about paying people to do nothing for as long as they want. Healthcare should be a fundamental right... not a luxury. People should have access to the same quality of healthcare, regardless of class. The healthcare system is already broken. Healthcare plans already limit which doctors you can see and the type of treatment they'll pay for.

That's idealism talking. Healthcare is not a right, although ideally everyone should have it. Food is not a right either. Giving some to someone who does not have enough is charity. I agree that in a society where there is sufficient resources to do it, it is a moral duty to ensure that these things are provided, but it is not a right.

The basic problem we conservatives have with national healthcare are twofold: 1) According to our Constitution, that is not a field that the federal government should really be involved in - Medicare and Medicaid already are debatable as it is, and 2) The belief that private enterprise can provide a better solution (such as the Swiss example). Hillarycare did not attempt to address those concerns, AFAIK.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
And there you go, solved your problem and did not need to involve the government. That's called taking personal responsibility for your own life. Now if we can just teach that to several other million people who think that the government is one big money tree we might get somewhere.

No, it's called I was lucky that I was able to.... most working poor can't borrow $2000.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
It is not a fundamental right, it is a privilege you have to work for. That is of course unless you want to live in a socialist country.

So I assume you believe that most of the developing world isn't entitled to this "privilege" and therefore should just die.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
The day you do that, the level of all healthcare will drop for everyone. There is a reason Michael J Fox lives in, and became, an American. There is a reason that Saudi royalty and other members of royal families from the middle east come here to the United States to get their healthcare needs taken care of. You don't see them going to countries with socialized medicine now do you?

You either just proved my point... that healthcare is only for the elite... or you just said that we have great doctors in this country (probably because we have great medical schools) OR... and this is my guess... you just took a typically self-centered American view that wealthy foreigners want to come only to America for healthcare. I believe there are some European members here that could cite just as many examples of excellence in healthcare in their own countries.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
But you still get to choose which plan you'll take which gives you different levels of choice in your care. A one for all government plan won't do that.

You obviously haven't worked for many different employers. That is an incredibly naive statement. Many employers offer ONE plan.... many none at all. And you also seem to be operating under some very strong and narrow assumptions as to how a national healthcare plan would work. How can you know that much about a program that doesn't yet exist???

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
I don't. If that is the case then someone who smokes for 50 years when it has been known for 40+ years that it is tremendously bad for you has no business getting any money from the government for their healthcare nor any settlement through the courts for their condition. The same goes with aids, a completely preventable disease.

The first part is debatable, perhaps... however, courts have ruled otherwise, as tobacco companies intentionally misled the public for decades and actively targeted kids with an addictive substance. Your second statement is just completely ignorant. HIV can be passed unknowingly, and can also be passed via needle pricks and other accidents. By your logic, skin cancer, heart disease etc. could also be classified as "completely preventable" and shouldn't be allowed treatment. If healthcare... medical treatment to sustain and prolong life... isn't categorized under LIFE... then what would it be categorized under?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
I don't live in the mythical vast majority of industrialized western nations and I don't want too. I live in America.

That's painfully obvious. But I think that those here from the EU, Japan, Australia, and Canada are probably offended... or amused... that you believe they're "mythical".

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
If I was single or my wife didn't work I would either look for another job or open an MSA and get my own insurance.

You're assuming you could afford it. I'm single, don't smoke, no chronic diseases.... a basic private health insurance premium is over $400 a month. Have you priced out how much a policy would be for you and your wife/family? Maybe you should do that.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 38):
No, my wife's, they have a better plan at a cheaper price. We got to choose between the two, something we would not be able to do if the government ran things.

You're fortunate.... and you also provide a great example why same-sex partnered couples should be afforded the same benefits as opposite-sex married couples, but that's a different issue. However, you are blissfully unaware of and quite callous towards the reality of millions of other fellow American citizens.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 39):
Not a convincing argument. Source please? I believe this is called projection by psycologists.

Simple... the source is: Canada, the EU, etc..... HAVE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLANS AND HAVE FOR DECADES. Are you tracking now? Do you need diagrams for illustrative purposes?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 39):
No I do not believe my employer should be obligated to provide insurance. My employer is obligated to pay me for my efforts according to my agreement with them.

That's PRECISELY my point. And you are able to pay your own premiums. Good for you!! SO... what about those who make minimum wage?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
The basic problem we conservatives have with national healthcare are twofold: 1) According to our Constitution, that is not a field that the federal government should really be involved in - Medicare and Medicaid already are debatable as it is, and 2) The belief that private enterprise can provide a better solution (such as the Swiss example). Hillarycare did not attempt to address those concerns, AFAIK.

However, you conservatives have no problem with the goverment regulating things like what goes on in the bedroom of consenting adults.

If the private sector could provide adequate, affordable healthcare to all citizens, then we wouldn't be having this debate. But it can't.

And my parents... in their '70's who worked their ASSES off their entire lives... and who have diabetes... depend on Medicaid and Medicare to SURVIVE. Should they just "take responsibility" for their actions and... what... mix their own medications up in the bathtub? Mortgage the house to visit the doctor?

And lastly... how many poor people are there in Switzerland? Right. Thought so.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:55 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 42):
However, you conservatives have no problem with the goverment regulating things like what goes on in the bedroom of consenting adults.

I don't. I'm a conservative in the traditional fiscal and constitutional mold, not an evangelist.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 42):
If the private sector could provide adequate, affordable healthcare to all citizens, then we wouldn't be having this debate. But it can't.

Yes it can. Like I told you, Switzerland did it, and the state doesn't have to spend a dime for it - private enterprise covers every single swiss resident by law, and some 70 different insurance companies compete for your business based on price and quality of service. Why this idea has not been put forward, I don't know - maybe something of a "Not-Invented-Here" Syndrome. But it can be done.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 42):
And lastly... how many poor people are there in Switzerland? Right. Thought so.

Percentage-wise, probably the same as in the U.S. more or less. You think they all work in banks?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 42):
And my parents... in their '70's who worked their ASSES off their entire lives... and who have diabetes... depend on Medicaid and Medicare to SURVIVE. Should they just "take responsibility" for their actions and... what... mix their own medications up in the bathtub? Mortgage the house to visit the doctor?

I agree the US system does not work well enough. But it can be made better while not increasing direct government involvement. If they used the Swiss example, the only government involvement would be regulatory in nature.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
No, it's called I was lucky that I was able to....

But you did do something which is more than a lot of people have been taught to do, they just figure the government will bail them out. It's that kind of thinking that leaves those people as vulnerable as they are. The problem is that after 40+ years of the great society programs, there are a lot of people out there who don't know any other way.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
So I assume you believe that most of the developing world isn't entitled to this "privilege" and therefore should just die.

Thats what charity is for.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
that healthcare is only for the elite...

No, it's for those that are willing to either get educated, or develop a skill that will enable them to make the money to afford their own healthcare or work for a company that offers good benefits. My father had his own accounting practice, he paid for our families health care through a provider. When he cost out a client, that was figured into the bill. I work for an airline, my wife works for a retailer. If they both came out tomorrow and said no more health care we would look for new jobs and in the mean time set up MSA's and purchase a high deductible policy. If you can't afford a 400 dollar a month policy then you need to find a new job.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
you just said that we have great doctors in this country

We do. Why do you think all the foreigners want to come here to study medicine?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
you just took a typically self-centered American view that wealthy foreigners want to come only to America for healthcare.

Hmmm....when I worked at CLE at least once a month a fancy wide body would be parked over at the FBO with some Arabic scroll on the tail. I have yet to hear of them coming to CLE to shop. They were always headed to the Cleveland Clinic so my experience says when they come to CLE, they are headed for the hospital.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
I believe there are some European members here that could cite just as many examples of excellence in healthcare in their own countries.

Sure they could. But when the rich want the best, they come to America. Especially if they live in a country that has government healthcare. Why should they wait in line when they can come here and get treated?

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
You obviously haven't worked for many different employers.

Not counting part time employers I have worked for 15 different employers in my life time. All of them offered at least 3 different plans, some with the same carrier some with a mix of carriers. You had a basic plan, intermediate, and it does it all plan. I can't help it if you choose to work for crappy companies.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
How can you know that much about a program that doesn't yet exist???

If Hillary was elected President we would see a resurrection of Billary Care. That plan dictated what doctor you would see, as well as deciding what care you were entitled too. Worse, it would have made it a crime to seek care outside of the governments purview or to practice medicine outside of the government overview. That is worse than socialism, that is the way the mob rules. It would be a sad day in America if that ever came to pass.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
isn't categorized under LIFE

The Constitution does not specify what kind of life you will have. It just specifies life. It is up to you to either make it a good one or a bad one.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 41):
However, you are blissfully unaware of and quite callous towards the reality of millions of other fellow American citizens.

No, I am aware of what I have had to do over the years to make ends meet for myself and my family. Sometimes that meant working two and in one case three jobs to provide for them. I am not superman nor am I Einstein but if I can do it, so can others. I get tired of hearing people whine that its just too expensive and I can't afford it. If I could make it happen than any normal person can, get off your butt and quit whining, go make something of yourself and quit expecting mommy government to make everything better.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
j_hallgren
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 11:48 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:23 pm

Having her as First Bitch was enough of a problem! I'd really hate to see her as POTUS...now IF Condie Rice would run, which she won't, then I'd vote for her...that would give us a two-fer...a black female Prez...but it'll not happen...
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
I'm a moderate, BTW, your uninformed attempts to paint me with the right wing brush notwithstanding.

WTF?? I thought someone else (ASF?) has already pegged you as a liberal,... and now we hear you're a right-winger. I'm confused. Will you make up your mind please Big grin

On a more serious note, Hillary Clinton is too divisive and controversial in my view. In 2008, the Country needs a president who can mend a few fences and work to reduce the partisanship that has become so pervasive.

The political right wouldn't give her a chance at all; they despise her.

As for my vote, that would all depend on who the Republicans have on their ticket. If I see a truly moderate Republican who is smart, articulate, and competent, I would probably vote for them rather than Hillary Clinton, particularly if the Congress is controlled by the Democrats.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 46):
WTF?? I thought someone else (ASF?) has already pegged you as a liberal,... and now we hear you're a right-winger. I'm confused. Will you make up your mind pleaseÊ

 rotfl  it's been the story of my life.

Yeas ago I was stationed in Alameda CA, but I lived in Marin County. To my civilian friends, I was their favorite right wing fascist. To my military colleagues, I was that liberal hippie that lived with all the other commie pinko a*sholes across the bay.

Well, off for a couple of days holiday.

Everyone please play nice together while I'm gone, OK?  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
No, it's for those that are willing to either get educated, or develop a skill that will enable them to make the money to afford their own healthcare or work for a company that offers good benefits. My father had his own accounting practice, he paid for our families health care through a provider. When he cost out a client, that was figured into the bill. I work for an airline, my wife works for a retailer. If they both came out tomorrow and said no more health care we would look for new jobs and in the mean time set up MSA's and purchase a high deductible policy. If you can't afford a 400 dollar a month policy then you need to find a new job.

I see... so those who weren't blessed with the brainpower and resources that you've evidently had since birth... who work 2 and 3 minimum-wage jobs to make ends meet... never mind time to go to school even though they'd like to... like (legal) immigrants for example... are just SOL. In Gilligan's view, they get what they deserve. Every American right now who isn't able to afford healthcare, regardless of circumstances, is just a deadbeat in Gilligan's mind, because HE worked hard and HE'S able to afford it. Well, I guess it's that kind of attitude that makes our country "great".

OH, and I can afford $400/mo... you again missed the point.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
Hmmm....when I worked at CLE at least once a month a fancy wide body would be parked over at the FBO with some Arabic scroll on the tail. I have yet to hear of them coming to CLE to shop. They were always headed to the Cleveland Clinic so my experience says when they come to CLE, they are headed for the hospital.

Again, you missed the point. You honestly believe that Germany and France and the UK don't also see those kind of plane tails with the occupants visiting for the same reason?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
Not counting part time employers I have worked for 15 different employers in my life time. All of them offered at least 3 different plans, some with the same carrier some with a mix of carriers. You had a basic plan, intermediate, and it does it all plan. I can't help it if you choose to work for crappy companies.

You've worked for 15 different employers because you're OLD. How long have you been at your current employer? At what level? Are you union? How much do you pay in premiums per month? Could someone who doesn't have an education get a job there? What if they wanted an education but can't afford it? Should they be punished for working hard by not having access to healthcare?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
If Hillary was elected President we would see a resurrection of Billary Care.

I'm not advocating resurrection of that plan, and I honestly do not believe that would be resurrected.... the situation now is much different than 14 years ago. That plan was a starting point. Hillary knows much more now than she did then. I believe she would assign a bipartisan taskforce, including external healthcare practitioners, to work on the problem.

Bottom line is... I do not advocate "endless welfare". I DO believe people should work hard to the best of their ability and not mooch off the government. I do not believe pure socialism works, but pure capitalism doesn't either. Healthcare is an issue that profoundly affects every member of society, and to which every citizen should have equal access. I don't believe it's ethical as a society to say: you and you and you can get the quality of care you need, but you and you and you cannot. I used to have an attitude similar to yours... but in the past few years I've witnessed firsthand the depth of the problem and changed my tune. And the problem is only going to get worse if something isn't done about it asap.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Is Hillary 2nd President Clinton?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting EasternSon (Reply 13):
did she have the parliamentary majorities in boht houses
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I'm not entirely sure that she did, maybe someone else can give you a more definite answer. But, Congress in both of President Clinton's terms worked very well with the White House

As far as I remember, the Clintons had congressional majorities against them for at least 6 out of 8 years. And they only got ahead on platforms approved by the conservative majorities, AFTER President Clinton dropped some more leftist proposals, which by chance fairly often were proposals of Hillary. Reality is that the Clinton presidency was a liberal-left presidency with centrist to right legislation.
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But let's realize that the "checks&balances" are not an accident in the constitution of your country but a quality. In other words, if she as president goes too fast into leftwing-liberalism she may well lose the next congress elections 2 years later.
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Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
Did you work in the Clinton Administration? I did, for one year. So while you might not like the conclusions I reach, on this issue at least they are well informed.
----
I'm a moderate, BTW, your uninformed attempts to paint me with the right wing brush notwithstanding.

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I apologize in case you feel insulted. But the point is not "informed" or "uninformed", the point is that you in most countries in Europe would be a "right-wing-liberal", just like Bill Clinton. People who in the USA are regarded as strong leftists in Europe just would be moderate social-democrats. While people like GWB, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and thelike in France would be in the FrontNational of Colonel Jean-Marie LePen . Jimmy Carter in Britain would have been with the Liberals or with the moderate factions of the Tories. Or look at historic figures like President Nasser of Egypt, who in Europe would have been with the Social Democracy, but US foreign minister Dulles described him as a "communist".
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But you can look into the history of your own country. President Nixon in comparison to GWB was a leftist. I hope that the Republican Party in the USA does NOT sweep farther to the right but will readjust towards the centre, possibly somewhere in the way of Governor Schwarzenegger of California .
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Quoting Cfalk (Reply 40):
There are health care solutions that would not require government participation. Switzerland's health care provides 100% coverage and is 100% private, for instance.

absolutely correct. But in Switzerland, if somebody does NOT have health-coverage, he/she will get problems, even if perfectly healthy. As the Swiss health-system however is, as you certainly know, extremely expensive, it is under permanent discussions. The leftists now want to have all the health-insurance-companies merged into a "national corporation" of some kind, and the rightists will soon start to go beserk about this idea.
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Quoting TWFirst (Reply 42):
And lastly... how many poor people are there in Switzerland? Right. Thought so.

there ARE poor people in Switzerland. You see, in view of the costs of living in Switzerland, poor people may be nicely well off by general standards but hardly able to pay the bills. However everybody HAS to have health coverage. At present, for many many people, to pay the health-insurance-fees is a really big problem.
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Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
Yes it can. Like I told you, Switzerland did it, and the state doesn't have to spend a dime for it - private enterprise covers every single swiss resident by law, and some 70 different insurance companies compete for your business based on price and quality of service. Why this idea has not been put forward, I don't know - maybe something of a "Not-Invented-Here" Syndrome. But it can be done.

In fact, I believe that the "Swiss system" might work better in the USA then in Switzerland itself, thanks to "savings of size/scale". If you provide some 3 to 7 top hospitals in Switzerland with some modern gear, you are high up in the purchasing price, but if you provide some 30 to 70 hospitals from the Atlantic to the Pacific with such gear, you will reduce the purchasing costs quite considerably.
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Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
You think they all work in banks?

he supposedly has never seen the homeless on BahnhofStadelhofen Square in Zurich and similar places in Geneva, Basel etc ! And canNOT imagine that also Swiss cities have rather rundown roads.
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As you have lived in Switzerland, if I remember correctly, a question, which may be quite relevant in this regard. How many percents of the Democratic members of the 2 houses of the Congress would in countries like Switzerland be regarded as "bourgeois" rightists ?
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