SInGAPORE_AIR
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Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:13 pm

Greetings,

Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

Liberals seem to be made fun of. Not only on these forums but in the reality of the normal world too.

In the Simpsons, while being chased by a goat, Mr. Burns called Lisa a "Liberal midget!".

In Desperate Housewives, when Lynette told Mrs. McKlusky about her beating about the bush with regards to telling her young son about the birds and the bees, the latter said that Lynette was preaching something like "Liberal idiocy" and that the best way was to shame the child.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:39 pm

Hey, I wore a Conservative Party of Canada t-shirt the other day that the party gave me when I worked at a rally for Stephen Harper, some of the student's on campus started yelling F*uck all Conservatives. It happens, I get made fun of here for being Conservative, I must admit that I do invite it sometimes though, I do wear a lot of political t-shirts that I get when I volunteer for different party members.

But like AC773 says, Artie makes Liberals look crazy, but Conservatives have those people too, Ann Coulter for example, I think it all depends on which side you're on.
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stlgph
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:51 pm

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 2):
I think it all depends on which side you're on.

true, indeed. however, Liberals..............."unfashionable"

wha?
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jwenting
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:27 pm

it's way too fashionable to be a communist (what in the US is called a "liberal")...
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skyservice_330
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:05 pm

From my understanding (and please correct me) in the US, the word 'liberal' was demonized in the 1980's and has had negative connotations attached to it ever since.

In Canada, it's not unfashionable I would say. The Liberal Party of Canada has a strong history in this country and I have never heard anyone made fun of or criticized for it more than someone may be criticized for being a conservative.

Maybe it depends on the country/continent?
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 5):
In Canada, it's not unfashionable I would say. The Liberal Party of Canada has a strong history in this country and I have never heard anyone made fun of or criticized for it more than someone may be criticized for being a conservative.

I think that the Liberals have it better in Canada personally. I go to University of Windsor, a very NDP Union town, and wearing a Conservative t-shirt is not a good idea here as I've found out. I've been called every name in the book here, Bible Thumper etc... It doesn't bother me, however, I had one professor who called me out as uncaring and out of touch in class. Now I'll fully admit to being a bit of a dick, but I don't speak in class, he just thought it offensive that I wore the shirt, after that, I made sure it was on in every one of his lectures.
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

It's certainly NOT unfashionable to be a Liberal here in Ireland or most of Europe! Quite the opposite, in fact. Being Conservative is much more undesirable and unfasionable. It is looked on as being stuffy and, well, CONSERVATIVE!

[Edited 2006-11-11 10:18:45]
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 6):
I had one professor who called me out as uncaring and out of touch in class

Well that was a bit harsh. What kind of module was it?
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 8):
Well that was a bit harsh. What kind of module was it?

I'm taking it by module you mean class, although I could be wrong, my apologies in advance. But the class was Youth In Conflict With The Law, basically a course about juvenile delinquency in Canada and how our system, or lack of it, deals with such offenders.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
it's way too fashionable to be a communist (what in the US is called a "liberal")...

You obviously have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

Is it? Maybe in the United States of Saudi America...
 
fraspotter
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 2):
but Conservatives have those people too, Ann Coulter for example, I think it all depends on which side you're on.

Well, I consider myself to be conservative and could just as easily tell Ann Coulter to f*** off!
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texdravid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Liberals seem to be made fun of. Not only on these forums but in the reality of the normal world too.

Au contraire! On these boards, being a liberal gives one respect and leeway with regards to suspensions, et. al.

In the U.S. only in the deep south is being a liberal considered in poor taste, and then only in small cities. I hardly think you would be out of place being liberal in Austin, Texas.

As for the rest of the world, being liberal is an advantage.
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satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 12):
In the U.S. only in the deep south is being a liberal considered in poor taste, and then only in small cities. I hardly think you would be out of place being liberal in Austin, Texas.

You need to reverse that. Being a "liberal" anywhere in Texas outside of Austin is just asking for trouble. I've been verbally attacked in parking lots just for having the audacity to sit in a car that happened to have mildly pro-environmental bumper stickers on it. I should probably set it strait right from the beginning that these stickers were not vulgar in any way and did not direct their message to any specific group. When a "Wake up and smell the smog" bumper sticker is enough to get you harassed without provocation you know you're living in one pathetic state.

If y'all want to know how liberals are viewed in small town America, rent the documentary "The Fire Next Time". We're basically just one or two notches above Nazis to the conservative wing of our American media.
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MDorBust
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
Being a "liberal" anywhere in Texas outside of Austin is just asking for trouble.

That explains Oak Lawn then.. Or is that a conservative gay community?  sarcastic 

Frankly, I find it revolting that any one cosiders fashion and liberal/conservative viewpoints in the same thoughts. If you core beliefs are dictated by fashion, you're a grade A wanker.
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satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 14):
That explains Oak Lawn then.. Or is that a conservative gay community?

Are you actually equating gays with liberals?
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MDorBust
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 15):
Are you actually equating gays with liberals?

Just observing that most homosexual persons happen to be liberal. An inferances that liberals are homosexual, or that all homosexuals are liberal are entirely on your behalf.

That being said, Oaklawn is a very liberal part of Dallas. And a gay community. You can make any connections you want.
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Dougloid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:44 am

It WAS unfashionable to be a liberal in the US until three days ago.

I woke up Wednesday morning and turned on the radio. After listening to the glad tidings of great joy I rolled over and told my wife "Honey, wake up! It's a great day to be a liberal pinko queer!" Laughs all around.

I guess this means I can take down my picture of Chairman Newt and use the Contract On America to line my birdcage with....the funniest part of it all was listening to Rush Limbaugh on his website passing the blame around-he says he's not going to carry the Republican Party any more.

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texdravid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
You need to reverse that. Being a "liberal" anywhere in Texas outside of Austin is just asking for trouble. I've been verbally attacked in parking lots just for having the audacity to sit in a car that happened to have mildly pro-environmental bumper stickers on it. I should probably set it strait right from the beginning that these stickers were not vulgar in any way and did not direct their message to any specific group. When a "Wake up and smell the smog" bumper sticker is enough to get you harassed without provocation you know you're living in one pathetic state.

If y'all want to know how liberals are viewed in small town America, rent the documentary "The Fire Next Time". We're basically just one or two notches above Nazis to the conservative wing of our American media.

Dude, did you realize that Dallas country just voted in an almost entirely Democratic ticket? Yes, that Dallas.

Many rural texas towns I would argue are more tolerant to liberals and gays than a place like SFO and Berkeley would be to conservatives. In my part of rural/exurb Texas, there are plenty of cars with John Kerry stickers from 2004, many liberals and many gays. It ain't just Austin.
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satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 18):

Dude, did you realize that Dallas country just voted in an almost entirely Democratic ticket? Yes, that Dallas.

Dallas "country"?  Big grin

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 18):
Many rural texas towns I would argue are more tolerant to liberals and gays than a place like SFO and Berkeley would be to conservatives.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 18):
In my part of rural/exurb Texas, there are plenty of cars with John Kerry stickers from 2004, many liberals and many gays. It ain't just Austin.

Bumper stickers and pockets of free thinkers does equal a moderate state. Texas was still pro-conservative and anti-liberal the last time I checked (after the 2006 mid-term elections).
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texdravid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Bumper stickers and pockets of free thinkers does equal a moderate state. Texas was still pro-conservative and anti-liberal the last time I checked (after the 2006 mid-term elections).

Well I live here full time, and thus I am observing what I see in my upper class exurb/rural area.

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Please explain how you came to that conclusion.

I meant Dallas county. My bad. With regards to the SFO angle, I myself at a party in downtown SF observed rants and heated dialogue against conservatives. I have heard nothing but frothy diatribes in Manhattan against anything right of Eliot Spitzer. I have seen many instances of left-wing narrow mindedness in all the liberal enclaves in the country.
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cfalk
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 2):
some of the student's on campus started yelling F*uck all Conservatives. It happens, I get made fun of here for being Conservative,

Since liberals are supposed to be all tolerant and inclusive, I find that hilarious.

When was the last time you saw crowds of conservatives assault a liberal? The reverse happens all the time (Just ask Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter or Minutemen speakers)
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DLPMMM
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:07 am

Examples:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 6):
I think that the Liberals have it better in Canada personally. I go to University of Windsor, a very NDP Union town, and wearing a Conservative t-shirt is not a good idea here as I've found out. I've been called every name in the book here, Bible Thumper etc... It doesn't bother me, however, I had one professor who called me out as uncaring and out of touch in class. Now I'll fully admit to being a bit of a dick, but I don't speak in class, he just thought it offensive that I wore the shirt, after that, I made sure it was on in every one of his lectures.



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 2):
Hey, I wore a Conservative Party of Canada t-shirt the other day that the party gave me when I worked at a rally for Stephen Harper, some of the student's on campus started yelling F*uck all Conservatives. It happens, I get made fun of here for being Conservative, I must admit that I do invite it sometimes though, I do wear a lot of political t-shirts that I get when I volunteer for different party members.



Quoting Texdravid (Reply 18):
Many rural texas towns I would argue are more tolerant to liberals and gays than a place like SFO and Berkeley would be to conservatives. In my part of rural/exurb Texas, there are plenty of cars with John Kerry stickers from 2004, many liberals and many gays. It ain't just Austin.



Quoting Texdravid (Reply 20):
meant Dallas county. My bad. With regards to the SFO angle, I myself at a party in downtown SF observed rants and heated dialogue against conservatives. I have heard nothing but frothy diatribes in Manhattan against anything right of Eliot Spitzer. I have seen many instances of left-wing narrow mindedness in all the liberal enclaves in the country.

And now to thehypocritical point:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
Since liberals are supposed to be all tolerant and inclusive, I find that hilarious.

When was the last time you saw crowds of conservatives assault a liberal? The reverse happens all the time (Just ask Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter or Minutemen speakers)

It always amazed me how the far left would preach the goodness of open-mindedness, free speech, and tolerance for all, EXCEPT when the ideas conflicted with their political beliefs.
 
satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
When was the last time you saw crowds of conservatives assault a liberal?

Every time I turn on FOX NEWS or just about anything on the AM radio band. Next?
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Boeing744
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 2):
Hey, I wore a Conservative Party of Canada t-shirt the other day that the party gave me when I worked at a rally for Stephen Harper, some of the student's on campus started yelling F*uck all Conservatives. It happens, I get made fun of here for being Conservative, I must admit that I do invite it sometimes though, I do wear a lot of political t-shirts that I get when I volunteer for different party members.

LOL! I can imagine that happening, and I bet it would be pretty funny, even for you! I would love to stick on an NDP t-shirt and go for a walk in small-town Alberta. I think all this "unfasionableness" (if that's a word) really depends where you are, not whether you're a Liberal, Conservative or whatever.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 5):
In Canada, it's not unfashionable I would say. The Liberal Party of Canada has a strong history in this country and I have never heard anyone made fun of or criticized for it more than someone may be criticized for being a conservative.

This is exactly true for Canada.
 
cfalk
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 23):
Every time I turn on FOX NEWS or just about anything on the AM radio band. Next?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Wrong!!!!

I'm not talking about arguing, I'm talking about physical assaults, such as has happened an several occasions to the speakers I mentioned.
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turbo7x7
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Just observing that most homosexual persons happen to be liberal.

Except for the hypocritical gay mafia that secretly runs the GOP machine in the Beltway. . .  Wink

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
When was the last time you saw crowds of conservatives assault a liberal? The reverse happens all the time

And yet we're STILL derided as a bunch of wussies.  Wink Well, we're just going to keep bashing your heads in until you learn your lesson! Big grin Big grin
 
Shinkai
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:13 pm

liberal means being free right?

you mean it is not fashionable to be free?

then what's this "land of the free and the home of the brave" business all about?
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 3):
true, indeed. however, Liberals..............."unfashionable"

I've met Gavin and he's much more liberal than I am - and considerably more fashionable as well I assure you.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 8):
What kind of module was it?

Does it matter?

Quoting TX" class=quote target=_blank>SATX (Reply 19):
Bumper stickers and pockets of free thinkers does equal a moderate state.

Well then, you might as well suggest your first post in this thread for deletion since you used abuse for your "Smell the Smog" bumper sticker as evidence of intolerance towards liberals in TX. You can't have it both ways
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cfalk
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 27):
liberal means being free right?

That is the traditional meaning, but now, in the U.S. at any rate, the term "liberal" has come to mean someone who believes in big government which will dictate how much a company or an individual can make, a high amount of income redistribution, no right or wrong, etc.
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satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 28):
Well then, you might as well suggest your first post in this thread for deletion since you used abuse for your "Smell the Smog" bumper sticker as evidence of intolerance towards liberals in TX. You can't have it both ways

Actually, I used the REACTION to the bumper stickers as one of my examples of anti-liberal views. See the difference?
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MrChips
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:19 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

Liberals seem to be made fun of. Not only on these forums but in the reality of the normal world too.

It's no more unfashionable than being a conservative.

The problem is not what is "fashionable" and what isn't, the problem comes from the fact that many people on both sides of the spectrum are so closed-minded and immature that would rather label you as a liberal or as a conservative rather than listen to what you have to say.

Furthermore, the same people (again, both liberal and conservative) feel it is their God-given duty to spout off their claptrap to whomever may be listening, regardless if they actually are bothered to listen in the first place. Do you know what I do if I see a Bill O'Reilly/Al Franken type on TV? I just switch to ESPN.

Me, I'm a bit of both - socially liberal and fiscally conservative. But do I feel the need to make sure everyone knows that every time I post? Nope.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting TX" class=quote target=_blank>SATX (Reply 30):
Actually, I used the REACTION to the bumper stickers as one of my examples of anti-liberal views. See the difference?

No, because the opposite of "reaction" is "lack of reaction" and I think Tex's point was that many people in his part of TX sport similar bumper stickers without getting reactions.

I'll bet you have one of those f*cking annoying blue dot bumper stickers too, don't you?
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 23):
LOL! I can imagine that happening, and I bet it would be pretty funny, even for you!

Oh it was, I have no problem with people yelling that at me, I just kept on walking with a big smile on my face.
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halls120
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Greetings,

Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

Liberals seem to be made fun of. Not only on these forums but in the reality of the normal world too

MrChips says it better than I could.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 30):
It's no more unfashionable than being a conservative.The problem is not what is "fashionable" and what isn't, the problem comes from the fact that many people on both sides of the spectrum are so closed-minded and immature that would rather label you as a liberal or as a conservative rather than listen to what you have to say.

 checkmark 
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Thread starter):
Why is it unfashionable to be a "Liberal" in today's society?

I think that a simple answer would be that liberals have taken things too far in too many areas of life, and the world has simply been reacting to that fact.

It makes me a bit uncomfortable when any one group, including liberals, among others, is demonized for anything and everything that is wrong with society. However, the recent excesses of liberalism and its inability to take criticism in stride -- not a universal trait, by any means, but still rather prevalent -- serve as disincentives to defend liberals when they are criticized, except in extreme cases.

I, myself, have found much to criticize in both liberalism and its more extreme variant, outright leftism. That said, I've also criticized conservatives, right-wingers, and extremists on the right. No group is truly simon-pure and therefore immune from criticism. Perhaps a wise approach for liberals to take would be to try to understand whether society's distaste for some of its current manifestations can be taken as an indication that liberal ideology, which calls for many kinds of changes in matters it happens to find of interest, may itself need to be reformed.

[Edited 2006-11-14 08:21:53]
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andessmf
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting MrChips (Reply 30):
Me, I'm a bit of both - socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

I find most people I know are this way.

My answer would be simple. It is not unfashionable to be called a liberal, or a conservative for that matter. What ticks me off is when a person cannot or will not correctly identify their political leanings. I have a friend who is a SFO/Berkeley type liberal, but calls himself a moderate. My brother in law is a liberal, lives in Berkeley, and lives a modest, very happy life. He knows and calls himself a liberal. Guess whom I respect more?
 
satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
I think that a simple answer would be that liberals have taken things too far in too many areas of life, and the world has simply been reacting to that fact.

Care to back up that surprisingly sweeping statement with something concrete? While liberals may be well and truly demonized in the US domestic media, the rest of the world (excluding China and India) doesn't seem to have nearly as negative a view of traditionally liberal causes like full equality under law, protection of civil liberties, respect for the environment, and the humane treatment of animals. Just because the Bible Belt longs for the old prejudices and carelessness of the 1950's doesn't mean the rest of the world is marching to that tired old beat, despite Rupert Murdoch's best efforts.
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andessmf
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 36):
Care to back up that surprisingly sweeping statement with something concrete?

This, people, is exactly what I posted. Perfect example. Here, he complains about a 'sweeping statement', and he answers back with, a 'sweeping statement'.

Quoting SATX (Reply 36):
Just because the Bible Belt longs for the old prejudices and carelessness of the 1950's
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:52 pm

Thank you for all your responses thus far. A very enlightening debate. I send thanks and Kudos to you all.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 36):
While liberals may be well and truly demonized in the US domestic media, the rest of the world (excluding China and India) doesn't seem to have nearly as negative a view of traditionally liberal causes like full equality under law, protection of civil liberties, respect for the environment, and the humane treatment of animals. Just because the Bible Belt longs for the old prejudices and carelessness of the 1950's doesn't mean the rest of the world is marching to that tired old beat, despite Rupert Murdoch's best efforts.

In the United States, I think that a lot of liberal ideology is tied in with things like gay marriage and the like -- issues that have no interest to the average working man. Liberalism has been extremely good for two things in recent history: Promotion of the interests of the middle class, which arose in recent decades (I would estimate between 1945 and 1975) from "mere" blue-collar occupations, and the equalization of the protection of racial minorities (between around 1955 and around 1975). The end of the heyday of liberalism began when unions came to be seen as bloated (faced with competition from Japan beginning in earnest in the mid-1970's, a few years after the energy crisis), and simultaneously with the onset of forced busing, which awoke the ire of ordinary middle-class whites in the Northeast.

Feminism has never been a completely unalloyed benefit of liberalism, although it, too, was a positive development. I would estimate that, from its roots in the suffragette movement, feminism strengthened considerably in the late 1960's and declined just as precipitously in the 1980's, when many of its goals (e.g., the ability of women to enter most areas of the workplace, though perhaps not on fully equal terms to date) were nearly completely achieved. Toward the late 1980's, there was a strong backlash resulting from perceived challenges to traditional values from what some saw as excesses of feminism, to the extent that some began to question whether we would soon see a complete elimination of the differences between the genders.

For these and other reasons, I think that liberalism began to fall out of favor no later than around thirty years ago and has simply continued its decline since.

As far as the world is concerned, I think that the recent reactions to multiculturalism in Britain and other places, for example, are signals of decreasing interest in liberalism.

[Edited 2006-11-14 14:57:48]
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satx
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 37):
Quoting SATX (Reply 36):
Care to back up that surprisingly sweeping statement with something concrete?

This, people, is exactly what I posted. Perfect example. Here, he complains about a 'sweeping statement', and he answers back with, a 'sweeping statement'.

Quoting SATX (Reply 36):
Just because the Bible Belt longs for the old prejudices and carelessness of the 1950's

The difference is that my sweeping statement is backed up by voting records and folks that make 1950's style remarks when they think they're in friendly company.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):
Toward the late 1980's, there was a strong backlash resulting from perceived challenges to traditional values from what some saw as excesses of feminism, to the extent that some began to question whether we would soon see a complete elimination of the differences between the genders.

Well, I think what happened in America during the 1980's was that folks realized that continued liberalism was going to cost them a lot money and they decided they'd rather have the money. Since then we managed to craft a society that is still very liberal in many ways, but which is unwilling to back up that liberal ideology with rules and regulations that are likely to incur substantial long-term expenditures.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 39):

As far as the world is concerned, I think that the recent reactions to multiculturalism in Britain and other places, for example, are signals of decreasing interest in liberalism.

However, this is also offset by the increased multiculturalism of the new EU with seemingly ever more transparent borders. As a net, I think you'll find that liberal views are generally welcomed or ignored in many Western European countries and are rarely demonized anywhere near the level we've seen in the US.
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vanguard737
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:42 am

From an American viewpoint:

Simple: People don't like whiners who constantly look for the negative and attack other people's ideas, yet never offer any constructive ideas of their own.

Not to mention that the Democratic party could not be more out of line with the values of Americans today.

Don't get me wrong, the Rupublican PARTY sucks too, but CONSERVATIVES are far more in line with Americans than liberals.

Does that answer your question?  Smile
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:22 am

I want to thank everyone who has said kind words about me during the last few days and weeks, when I was absent and preoccupied with Thanksgiving and other concerns.

That said, I wish to again address the question of liberalism and why it seems to be so despised in the world today. I want also to offer some words about its potential to develop, or at any rate to regain a measure of its former strength.

Having spent some time away from the hurly-burly of the Internet, where often I find myself defending conservative values even though -- as I've said -- I'm not always in agreement with conservatives, I think that there is something to be said for the idea that everything develops its own momentum, and that everyone loves a bandwagon.

For a very long time, conservatism was on the ascendancy, and it seemed that liberalism was approaching a point of complete diminishment. As the loser of the battle between two political viewpoints, liberalism seemed easy to criticize, and all things that were wrong about the world were simply dumped on its doorstep.

At the same time, and to its disadvantage, liberalism dispensed with some of its strongest allies: The altruistic impulse found in some substantial measure in such things as religion, and the spirit of growth and futurism.

Many people, including yours truly, became rather embittered by liberalism's abandonment of the idea of technological progress. After all, it was the belief in a better tomorrow that attracted many to liberalism to begin with. Yet, since the 1970's, liberalism became associated with anti-religious sentiment and with opposition to the concept of improving life through technological means. In this, liberalism lost a great many adherents who started out thinking that life could be made better by all means possible -- including through both technology and brotherhood.

As to the latter, identification of liberal causes with smaller and smaller groups alienated those of us who simply could not identify as much with any of them.

A vicious cycle ensued, in which a less and less popular political ideology became an easier and easier target, which in turn contributed to the growing embitterment and unpopularity of the ideology itself. From a macro standpoint, the result was hardly to be unexpected.

There is something lost to the world when what we have in the United States, for the most part, is a contest between the far right, on one hand, and mainstream that, until very recently, was called upon to consider liberalism a failed and dying mode of thought. The variety of philosophy and the richness of the full gamut of possible solutions to the great problems of the day were reduced because it was far easier to believe that only conservatives had the answers.

I think that even conservatives have reached the point where it is no longer possible to pretend that only one side of the political spectrum is possessed of all the answers.

As much as we dislike believing that this is so, the pendulum has swung, and many of us have come to the belief that the other side deserves a chance to succeed, or fail.

In a free nation, there is nothing to suggest that this turn of events is anything but as it is. Whether it reaches the solutions we desire, is anyone's guess. If anyone knew, there'd hardly be a place for politics at all.

[Edited 2006-11-28 22:38:34]
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Dougloid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
A vicious cycle ensued, in which a less and less popular political ideology became an easier and easier target, which in turn contributed to the growing embitterment and unpopularity of the ideology itself. From a macro standpoint, the result was hardly unexpected.

There is something lost to the world when what we have in the United States, for the most part, is a contest between the far right, on one hand, and mainstream that, until very recently, was called upon to consider liberalism a failed and dying mode of thought. The variety of philosophy and the richness of the full gamut of possible solutions to the great problems of the day were reduced because it was far easier to believe that only conservatives had the answers.

I think that even conservatives have reached the point where it is no longer possible to pretend that only one side of the political spectrum is possessed of the answers.

As much as we dislike believing that this is so, the pendulum has swung, and many of us have come to the belief that the other side deserves a chance to succeed, or fail.

In a free nation, there is nothing to suggest that this turn of events is anything but as it is. Whether it reaches the solutions we desire, is anyone's guess. If anyone knew, there'd hardly be a place for politics at all.

What happened was, the Republican party let itself get coopted by the Limbaugh/Gingrich/Reagan wing of the party, to the extent that the electorate believed the cant and hyperbole they spewed. And part of it was the attitude of the loudest voices in that party who more or less told everyone else "Here's our agenda. We're going to ram it up your ass and break it off." That's great stuff as long as you're winning every down, to use a metaphor, but it turns sour pretty quickly if you're wrong.

I talked to a lady who was until recently a Republican senator from Davenport. She had a position open for a staff assistant and I said "Well, would you hire a Democrat?". She had to agree that I knew what I was talking about but she said that she was afraid of what people in her party would do if she did that. Then she said "I'm a moderate Republican and we're going the way of the dodo bird. We're nearly extinct and no new ones are coming along."

What you saw the other week was a response on a gut level to six years of presidential misrule and spending the country into the poorhouse. Had it not been for Bush's war, I'm sure nothing would have changed, though. Too bad it took the smell of death to wake people up from their self induced coma.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
LHMark
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:59 am

I would say it's definitely more fashionable to be a liberal than a conservative. The fashionable set- movie stars, rock musicians, fashion models, etc, wears liberalism like a baby mink coat. Certainly that brings many impressionable kids to parrot their barely considered postions.

But there are a lot more of the other kind of liberal. The kind born with a sense of personal ethic and justice, who doesn't view people as a commodity and make personal sacrifices in order to promote equitable interaction on the most grassroots of levels- the personal one.

[Edited 2006-11-28 23:03:58]

[Edited 2006-11-28 23:15:26]
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 43):
What you saw the other week was a response on a gut level to six years of presidential misrule and spending the country into the poorhouse. Had it not been for Bush's war, I'm sure nothing would have changed, though. Too bad it took the smell of death to wake people up from their self induced coma.

I think that the loss of the majority in Congress the last several weeks has had the effect that many of us feared. To be honest, even as a registered Republican, I was as disgusted as any Democrat -- if not more so -- by the antics and foolishness of knaves like ex-Congressman Foley, who preyed on the young, and by events such as the firing of Rumsfeld only after the magnitude of his incompetence became undeniable. Things like these had the effect of telling me that a growing knot in my stomach, calling on me to admit that I was backing the wrong horse, was in fact a portent of truth.

You speak of "Bush's war", but I'm not quite at the stage when I can use that phrase without reservation. In spite of this, I've said many times that any news that a single American casualty was suffered in Iraq strikes me as a tragedy beyond compare, and in recent months, I cannot deny that the threshold has been reached in which no justification can be made that our continued casualties in Iraq should be suffered. Enough, finally, is enough.

A year ago, I would have said that there is still time for the good people of Iraq to do what is right and to defeat those who desire their destruction in their midst. A few months ago, I would have been confident that with our help, they would have done so eventually. But now, I am not so sure, and yet the reality of death and injury to our own remains inescapable.

There is a saying: "Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way." The United States has neither led nor followed in Iraq, but has allowed the weak and fundamentally insecure leadership of the Iraqi government to do what it has desired since its election. And as other than the masters of our own fate there, we've suffered accordingly. Common sense tells me that we cannot be half-in and half-out. We are either in, and we fight on our terms, or we are out. We're not some hired gun for some foreign government to call upon at its leisure.

Enough is enough.

I'm afraid that I must insist that the Bush Administration has lost touch with reality in too many respects for me to defend it even on the issue of Iraq. Either it should act quickly and with forthrightness, and defeat the enemy with the necessary force and fortitude, or it should, at long last, give our men and women in uniform the break they deserve. What Rumsfeld hath wrought, whatever his intentions, is no longer, in my mind, defensible.

In the same spirit, many of us view the political situation at hand with sadness, because the defeat of our objectives in the world is a defeat for humanity. I have no hope that the Democrats will do much better; but it is simply a feeling that the current approach can no longer prevail.

There was a solicitation I received recently for funds for the Republican Party, and I threw it out without looking at it. I, for one, am disgusted with the entire mess in which we find ourselves, and if the Democrats and liberals cannot find solutions to the problems we face, then many of us will be forced to say: A pox on both your houses. Call us back when you have what it takes to lead us where we need to be.

[Edited 2006-11-28 23:22:02]
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Dougloid
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 45):
Enough is enough.

I'm afraid that I must insist that the Bush Administration has lost touch with reality in too many respects for me to defend it even on the issue of Iraq. Either it should act quickly and with forthrightness, and defeat the enemy with the necessary force and fortitude, or it should, at long last, give our men and women in uniform the break they deserve. What Rumsfeld hath wrought, whatever his intentions, is no longer, in my mind, defensible.

In the same spirit, many of us view the political situation at hand with sadness, because the defeat of our objectives in the world is a defeat for humanity. I have no hope that the Democrats will do much better; but it is simply a feeling that the current approach can no longer prevail.

Well, when I went to pick the old lady up at work and instead of there being 22 M1 Abrams tanks on post there were only the hangar queens left, I had that sinking feeling.
I'm old enough to have grown up during the Vietnam era. I remember it all too well, although I did not serve in the military, and a tip of the hat to those who did. So my initial response was "Didn't we have this discussion 35 years ago?"
Well, we went and had a war anyway.

So my thought was "OK. Iraq's like a guy you run over with your car. It's your duty to make him whole again, pay his hospital bills, help him back on his feet and then exit gracefully. Maybe we'll do that, and it will be good."

Then we got "Shock and awe! Mission accomplished!"

Of course, nothing of the sort happened. We sank into a bog of our own manufacture because we hadn't a plan to secure the peace. We lanced a boil but couldn't staunch the bleeding because we had and have no plan.

And in doing so, we squandered the lives of several thousand loyal Americans and the health and welll being of many more. That's a breach of trust and a scandal no right thinking American can forgive.

I'm in mind of Cromwell's words to the Rump Parliament: YOU HAVE BEEN TOO LONG HERE FOR ANY GOOD YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. DEPART, I SAY, AND LET US HAVE DONE WITH YOU. IN THE NAME OF GOD, GO!

It seems fitting.

And let it be remembered:

Iraqis bleed just as red as our boys. I have no doubt that there's many a farmhouse in the Tigris valley where an old mother and father wait in vain for their sons to walk up the hot dusty road to the place they left so long ago, to drink from the well in the courtyard and sit in the shade and tell the folks about the places they'd been and the things they'd seen.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Confuscius
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:49 am

Liberals unfashionable?

Nancy Pelosi in an Armani suit.



Muted Tones Of Quiet Authority: A Look Suited To the Speaker

By Robin Givhan
Washington Post Staff Writer

The California Democrat was dressed in a blue-gray pantsuit with a blouse in a similar but slightly deeper hue. She wore a necklace that was a complementary mix of colors...

Pelosi's suit was by Giorgio Armani -- the Italian master of neutral tones and modern power dressing -- and she wore it well. She looked polished and tasteful in front of the cameras. It is tempting to even go so far as to say that she looked chic...


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/11/09/AR2006110901521.html

Denny Hastert on the other hand...
Ain't I a stinker?
 
halls120
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
I want to thank everyone who has said kind words about me during the last few days and weeks

Just curious. Do you post on Anet for the enjoyment of discussion, or for the purpose of garnering compliments?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
That said, I wish to again address the question of liberalism and why it seems to be so despised in the world today

Faulty premise. Liberalism isn't despised, and the original poster never said it was. He asked why was it "unfashionable" to be a liberal. Big difference between the two.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
For a very long time, conservatism was on the ascendancy, and it seemed that liberalism was approaching a point of complete diminishment.

Another faulty premise. If you look at US politics only, liberalism has been the driving force for most of the last 45 years. Except for Reagan, the only real conservative president during this period, liberalism has been in command, both in the White House and on Capitol Hill.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
Many people, including yours truly, became rather embittered by liberalism's abandonment of the idea of technological progress.

When and how has mainstream liberalism abandoned technological progress?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 43):
What happened was, the Republican party let itself get coopted by the Limbaugh/Gingrich/Reagan wing of the party,

What has screwed the republican party is not what/who has co-opted them, it is the plain fact that they have become no different than the power hungry pork barrel democrats they had replaced.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 45):
To be honest, even as a registered Republican, I was as disgusted as any Democrat -- if not more so -- by the antics and foolishness of knaves like ex-Congressman Foley, who preyed on the young, and by events such as the firing of Rumsfeld only after the magnitude of his incompetence became undeniable.

Foley's antics weren't the problem - individual politicians will always run afoul of the law and morality. It was the way Hastert and the other republicans that knew of his malfeasance - and covered it up - that was the overarching transgression.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Why Is It Unfashionable To Be A "Liberal"?

Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 46):
Of course, nothing of the sort happened. We sank into a bog of our own manufacture because we hadn't a plan to secure the peace. We lanced a boil but couldn't staunch the bleeding because we had and have no plan.

Increasingly, it looks as though you may be right. The "plan" often articulated is that we will withdraw when the Iraqi government is capable of defending its country. But that's not so much a real plan as a slogan -- the one it has spawned: "As Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." It's as much a hope as a course of action. What happens if the Iraqis never stand up?

Millions of us were hoping for more than this. We hoped that the chaos in Iraqi could be controlled, but instead, it has steadily worsened. As you mentioned, Iraqi victims of violence number in the hundreds per week.

Our military, I would venture, did not so much "run over" the Iraqis as eliminate a cancer in their body politic. But the post-operative care has been dismal in effect, regardless of what we've tried in good faith. And let there be no doubt: We've tried tremendously. But it's proven to be insufficient. Either we achieve a cure, or we admit that perhaps the problem has no cure that we can provide, and leave it to others to help the patient.

What is remarkable at this point is that it is not actually conservatism that is to be blamed for the mess in Iraq, and yet conservatism is tainted by its association with it. Perhaps the classic effects of the hubris of power have prevailed. Perhaps, on the other hand, those in power have simply been less than fully capable and have just happened to claim to be conservative. Either way, many of us are disappointed, and it remains to be seen whether liberalism can meet the challenges that those in power have failed to conquer.

[Edited 2006-11-29 05:32:24]
What's fair is fair.

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