BOAC911
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Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:30 pm

Could anyone update me on this. I arrived in GRU Oct 21, and didn't notice any "U.S. passport lane. They had one three yeas ago.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:18 am

The law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.
 
sampa737
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:51 am

That was a horrible time. I would have volunteer teams arriving into GRU around 8am. Then, they'd spend several hours in line getting finger printed and photographed. I'm thankful those days are over!
 
ptugarin
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:41 pm

I think retaliation is foolish and makes everyone's life more difficult, including Brazilian immigration officers. Any action should have a justification and not just eye-for-eye.
 
a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:55 pm

Every sovereign nation has the right to screen who will let in.
USA is using the strictest procedures in the world .
However, when is placing the citizens of allied nations like E.U , in a procedure similar to criminals arrested, than the feeling created is negative.
When same measures are implemented from the other side then are called unjustified!!!.
To my opinion, this kind of measures should be implemented from all nations that object when there citizens are treated like criminals.
Maybe this will wake up the US administration to realize that treating people like that is not to the US interest.
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LAXintl
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting A3 (Reply 8):
To my opinion, this kind of measures should be implemented from all nations that object when there citizens are treated like criminals.
Maybe this will wake up the US administration to realize that treating people like that is not to the US interest.

As the Brazilians can attest finger printing US Citizens cost them quite a bit of money in lost tourism revenues and negative press in the US.
Its no coincidence the Mayor of Rio along with large companies and tourism organization lobbied hard for the central government to drop its policy.

Right or wrong, quite clearly most countries need the US more, than the US needs them hence how the US can implement such policies without much backlash.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PanHAM
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 7):
I think retaliation is foolish and makes everyone's life more difficult, including Brazilian immigration officers. Any action should have a justification and not just eye-for-eye.

You are right. What is the justification to take my fingerprints? I am a honorable citizen of an allied nation without a criminal record, I earn my keep, pay for my expenses and bring money to the country. I do not fit the profile of any potential terrorist, I had a life/multiple entry visa which was only voided because of the Visa waiver program. I never exceed my stay in the US, I did not even get a single parking or speeding ticket in all my visits/stays over 37 years.

The general feeling in Europe is, that fingerprinting is for criminals only. It is no fun, being treated like a criminal upon entering a country, especially not when you really like that country, which I still do.

If a country reacts like Brazil did, I would not call it stupid retaliation.

[Edited 2006-11-12 10:05:07]
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a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:59 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
Right or wrong, quite clearly most countries need the US more, than the US needs them hence how the US can implement such policies without much backlash.

You are absolutely right.

Some nations are in deep red and may put aside their public feeling, wile some others don¢t .
It¢s a matter of timing. No matter what the governments do the public feeling exists and it grows.

At the bottom line if some nation thinks that, their citizen¢s pride is not more important than some tourists business, than they should let go any screening procedures.
This way no one can accuse them for retaliation  Wink
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N1120A
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting Magyar (Reply 3):
But should not abolish the requirement. If the US
has the right to collect personal information of foreigners everybody else should.

Absolutely.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 4):
Yes the Moment US Citizens destroy Buildings in Brazil all US Citizens should be fingerprinted....

Ok. The moment Brazilian citizens blow up buildings in the US, all Brazilian citizens should be fingerprinted.

Here is another. The momenet US Citizens destroy buildings in the US, all US Citizens should be fingerprinted. Oh wait...
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bjg231
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
If a country reacts like Brazil did, I would not call it stupid retaliation.

Does Brazil have the right to react in that manner? Absolutely. Are they stupid for doing so? No question.

They're only shooting themselves in the foot by wasting time and money on a political move that carries no weight in international politics.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
I am a honorable citizen of an allied nation

If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport and fly from that country to bypass these security measures. This of course says nothing of potential terrorists from "friendly" states.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
without a criminal record, I earn my keep, pay for my expenses and bring money to the country. I do not fit the profile of any potential terrorist, I had a life/multiple entry visa which was only voided because of the Visa waiver program. I never exceed my stay in the US, I did not even get a single parking or speeding ticket in all my visits/stays over 37 years.

Do you have any idea how expensive and time consuming it would be to do a background check on each and every international visitor that enters our borders? Talk about treating people like criminals...

That being said, having to fingerprint and photograph visitors is truly an inconvenience and is at times, insulting. However, I feel its necessary if not for US national security interests, than for political ones. Dropping these precautions runs the risk of political suicide if another attack were to occur (even a minor one).
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a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
The momenet US Citizens destroy buildings in the US, all US Citizens should be fingerprinted. Oh wait...

Oh my !! You know how to scratch wounds  Wink
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csavel
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:28 pm

The whole fingerprinting for passport citizens of friendly nations is mere security theater, just for show, meant to
1) show fearful Americans who are ignorant and don't travel how we are not letting those dang furriners in
2) covering the rear ends of any politicians in case something happens
3) getting people so used to having to show ID and then submitting to fingerprints (Some US states are beginning to do this for drivers licenses - watch it be a requirement for US citizens to get their passports) that like the proverbial frog in the boiling water,we won't realize we live in a place where we have to ask permission to travel until it is too late

Yes I know there are a lot of extremists from Britain and Germany and all they have to do is get a passport, but then again, same is to be said about extremists WITHIN the US, plus if I were Al Qaeda, I'd be looking for some blonde haired blue eyed convert from Alabama to be the next suicide bomber,I mean come on.

PS I don't necessarily fingerprinting or background checks of nationals from certain countries is always a bad idea, perhaps the Dep't of State, if it was done INDEPENDENTLY without influence from the politicians, can assess what countries require additional screening.


PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.

PPS Upon preview, I accidently spelled "passport" as "assport" I was extremely tempted to not correct it.
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PanHAM
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
They're only shooting themselves in the foot by wasting time and money on a political move that carries no weight in international politic

possible, It'sup to them to decide that.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport

it is not that easy to obtain a German passport, although some potential customers did get citizenship, like the (in)famous Mr. el Masri from Ulm. Profiling did the trick here and Mr el Masri was obvioulsy taken for questioning, at least thats what he claims and the US does not deny.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Do you have any idea how expensive and time consuming it would be to do a background check on each and every international visitor that enters our borders? Talk about treating people like criminals.

Guess what the US are doing right now. When I book my flight on the internet, the airline sends an e-mail requiring me to answer with some personal data like passport number ets. Plus the data they have on fiule ( I am FF woith BA and LH, so they have my credit card numbers, FF numbers and the full profile, this data is send to the TSA and run through a computer program. Every passenger and every foreigner arriving to the US is pre-checked, otherwise he will not be acceptet for the flight. We pay for that as passengers BTW.

I do not object the pre-clearance, I have nothing to hide and usually my time in front of the INS inspector is less than a minute. Just stamps flying and "have a nice stay, Sir"..

My point is just that fingerprinting in Europe is something limited to criminals and if Uncle Sam takes your prints one feels like beeing treated as such. Not nice to greet the visitors. Plus, I cannot see the reason for fingerprints other that they know the attackers identity immediately AFTER an attack. 9/11, as we all know, could have been prevented if the various Government agencies had updated and compared their existing knwoledge about these guys. Here we are back to profiling which alone is not good oif the necessary consequences and actions are not taken.

Britain has been quite successful recently and may be the US as well with profiling and secret surveillance. That does the trick and I do hope they will be that succfessfull in the future. Taking pictures and fingerprints is just PC rubbish like the new regulations with liqiids.
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philb
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:20 pm

Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):
PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.

Explain pls
 
legacy135
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
If the US limited its fingerprinting policy to only ecompass citizens of "unfriendly" states, all a terrorist would have to do is get a german passport and fly from that country to bypass these security measures. This of course says nothing of potential terrorists from "friendly" states.

This is a very simple way to see the problem. If it makes you feel safer, I am happy to give you my fingerprints.

Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Dropping these precautions runs the risk of political suicide if another attack were to occur (even a minor one).

Didn't that already happen to start? Regards to Donald and W's other highly qualified consultants Big grin

Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):
Yes I know there are a lot of extremists from Britain and Germany and all they have to do is get a passport, but then again, same is to be said about extremists WITHIN the US, plus if I were Al Qaeda, I'd be looking for some blonde haired blue eyed convert from Alabama to be the next suicide bomber,I mean come on.

This is very ture.

I am not about to start a political thread at all, I am not anti American and I do love this country and it's people. I am positively minded that if we are patient, we shall see things becoming normal again, making all those doubtful checks just another piece of history.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 1):
The law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 9):
As the Brazilians can attest finger printing US Citizens cost them quite a bit of money in lost tourism revenues and negative press in the US.



Quoting Bjg231 (Reply 13):
Does Brazil have the right to react in that manner? Absolutely. Are they stupid for doing so? No question.

Some clarifications here are required. This was NEVER a law nor was it mandated by the federal government. Rather, it was ordered by a federal judge in response to some lawyer who thought that the diplomatic principle of reciprocity should apply after the US implemented its system (reciprocity is the reason why visas are required of US citizens but not Europeans). IIRC, at some point in time, the fingerprinting was only taking place at GRU, but not GIG. I suppose after a while the judge reversed himself or a higher court ruled against the measure.

Obviously, immigration officials were caught by surprise and didn't have the necessary infrastructure to comply with the ruling. Hence, the mess experienced at GRU and negative press. The government was never in favor of this either. However, it was never a question of money. I suppose if Brazil really wanted to implement a system as efficient as the American, it could be done without much lost revenue. It would still be a waste of tax payers' money and thus isn't even debated.
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par13del
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:32 pm

This is just a small look into how international politics has changed. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, can any country now rely on the screening process of another, profiling is illegal in many countries, as is the sharing of information with foreign countries, it's ok to collect domestically.

The only thing that one can do is attempt to make things for difficult for criminals, what gets frustrating is that everyone knows whats a bad and faulty plan, alternative suggestions seem to be in short supply.
 
BOAC911
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 1):
he law requiring the fingerprinting and photographing of US citizens expired.

I already have my answer. Thank you. Everything else is politics.
 
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eksath
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 17):
Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):PS
Security theater is as bad, if not worse in Britain.


[quote=Philb,reply=17]Explain pls

CCTV and Prevention of Terrorism Act

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2005/20050002.htm
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philb
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting Eksath (Reply 22):
CCTV and Prevention of Terrorism Act

Much as some of the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act are overdone, they are nowhere near as severe (or used as an excuse for overzealous policing by everyone from the real policing authorities through so called security guards to busy body citizens) as the provisions of the Patriot Act.

As for CCTV cameras, the bulk of those in the UK are provided for and used for the prevention of street crime, theft in stores and malls and for traffic purposes. Those specifically installed for anti terrorist activities are in the City of London and near buldings of national importance and were originally put in place in the light of IRA atrocities.

They may be over intrusive in some instances but I prefer the atmosphere visiting London, Manchester, Leeds etc., to the atmosphere visiting NYC, Boston, Philadelphia and DC - which wasn't the case before Bush and his cronies decided to pile fear on fear - something Blair hasn't suceeded in doing in quite the same way.
 
aeronut
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:41 am

whatever... there are two sides to the story. I recently had to relocate to work down in the States and had to sucumb to Fingerprint scanner. I am not a criminal so why would I be concerned about giving by fingerprints? Because somewhere there exists a file on me in some database somewhere, and don't kid yourself, that info would be used if there was ever deemed a need to use it, regardless of the US constituion, or whatever else thats in place to keep that info private.

Of course the next logical step when DNA testing becomes cheap enough is to take DNA samples of foreigners when they enter the US as well.
 
madairdrie
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:51 am

Can someone please tell me what the US gets out of fingerprinting etc? I have never really seen the point of the exercise.
Kenneth
 
burnsie28
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:32 am

I wouldn't care if a foreign country took my finger prints and photo, but only the way the US does, meaning, non-ink finger print that takes about 2 seconds.
 
dz09
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting A3 (Reply 8):
However, when is placing the citizens of allied nations like E.U , in a procedure similar to criminals arrested, than the feeling created is negative.

I was treated to that special room at Athens airport last year, where I was stripped down to my birthday suit except for my shorts. My fault was checking in at the last minute. I told the screener that they should at least buy me dinner first. They did not get it! The good thing about it is that they completely emptied my briefcase which gave me a chance to get rid of lot of junk i'd been carrying around. It is what it is.....
 
a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 35):
I was treated to that special room at Athens airport last year, where I was stripped down to my birthday suit except for my shorts. My fault was checking in at the last minute. I told the screener that they should at least buy me dinner first. They did not get it! The good thing about it is that they completely emptied my briefcase which gave me a chance to get rid of lot of junk i'd been carrying around. It is what it is.....

I can understand how annoying this was for you.

I suppose it’s not that often (I have been in and out ATH many many times but never had any delays of that kind) and for sure it’s not a standard procedure.

But what is happening in US entry points is a standard procedure and its definitely embracing and annoying to all US allied country citizens.

I think you can see the difference between something that may have happened to one US citizen and something that is happening to all non-US citizens every time that they visit US.

[Edited 2006-11-12 18:11:06]
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acabgd
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 7):
Any action should have a justification and not just eye-for-eye.

Fine, so please tell me why are EU citizens fingerprinted when entering the USA? What is a justification? What has the EU done to deserve so?
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PennPal
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 43):
Quoting PennPal (Reply 42):
however such punitive schemes directed at the US only serve to hurt themselves via reduced tourism revenues and potential investment capital.

The US issues fewer passports as a percentage of population than any other "developed" country so there's little to be lost there. US companies seeking to establish markets overseas would willingly go along with any rule - that's commerce.

Not my statement.

Quoting Philb (Reply 43):
In the other direction, since Bush cheated his way into power I've only been to the US once (in the 18 years prior to 2001 I had made 19 visits for work and vacation, it being my first choice for both general interest and aircraft.

After the trip in 2005 I won't be going back until things change - hopefully after January 2009 and I've met many other Europeans with the same attitude.

OH HORRORS!!! PLEASE, EVERY AMERICAN READING THIS...PRAY FOR A DEMOCRAT TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE SO THESE BELOVED EUROPEANS WILL START COMING BACK!!!!! WHAT WILL WE DO WITHOUT THEM??!?!?!?  Yeah sure
 
a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting PennPal (Reply 30):
WHAT WILL WE DO WITHOUT THEM??!?!?!?

Duno …. Maybe buy and sell Boeings to each other???
 Wink
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fxramper
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:21 am



AA Sr Capt Dale R. Hirch's opinion of finger printing in Brasil.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting A3 (Reply 44):
Well in EU we travel without passport. So there was no need for biometric passports. The only country that requested them is US ……

Despite what European media tells you, European governments conduct far more domestic surveillance than the US does. The reason is that you all have a far greater history of terror attacks and have far more violent domestic and foreign ethnic groups with grievances against the various national governments. Since you already have the surveillance infrastructure in place you can successfully prevent attacks that are closer to execution. In the US we don't have much of a history of attacks despite having little domestic surveillance. Our law enforcement agencies responsible for counterterrorism prior to 9/11 pretty much focussed on solving the crime after the fact, and even now surveillance of US groups is comparitively low yield. For us it is far more efficient to screen potential foreign sources of attacks and highly preferable to domestic surveillance. Those efforts start at the borders of the US.
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atmx2000
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 29):

Fine, so please tell me why are EU citizens fingerprinted when entering the USA? What is a justification? What has the EU done to deserve so?



Quoting Madairdrie (Reply 25):
Can someone please tell me what the US gets out of fingerprinting etc? I have never really seen the point of the exercise.
Kenneth

Fingerprinting can be used to determine whether someone is who their passport says they are and whether they are using forged or stolen documents to enter the country.
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a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:41 am

That is the result of the arrogance created ……

Quoting FXramper (Reply 32):
AA Sr Capt Dale R. Hirch's opinion of finger printing in Brasil.

also

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/12/world/main592699.shtml

This is how companies try not to loose money......

Quote

"The company apologizes to the Brazilian government, the airport authorities, the police or anyone else who may have perceived anything they believe to have been disrespectful."
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Madairdrie (Reply 25):
Can someone please tell me what the US gets out of fingerprinting etc? I have never really seen the point of the exercise.

Read reply #15, which describes it perfectly.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 33):
Despite what European media tells you

How do you know what "European media" (whatever that generalisation means) tell? How many European media sources have you checked so far?


PH
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PanHAM
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 34):
Fingerprinting can be used to determine whether someone is who their passport says they are and whether they are using forged or stolen documents to enter the country.

Excuse me, could you kindly explain to me how that is possible?

My passport is valid and not forged, I am the person shown in the passport. My fingerprints have not been on file (up until last year) anywhere in the world, still today only my 2 index fingers are on file with the INS.

Now, try top match that with your "logic", mate.

Once we have biometric passports, yes. But not now.
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dz09
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Acabgd (Reply 29):
Fine, so please tell me why are EU citizens fingerprinted when entering the USA? What is a justification? What has the EU done to deserve so?

I am glad that everybody is treated the same way here in the States, Why should Europeans or any other group of people be treated differently? They treat us the same as any other non-european country over there, don't they? Besides, too often I see how they mistreat Africans and other third world countries. It sucks being treated like anybody else, doesn't it?
 
a3
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 39):
I am glad that everybody is treated the same way here in the States, Why should Europeans or any other group of people be treated differently? They treat us the same as any other non-european country over there, don't they?

I really can’t understand why some people(and/or administrations ) are trying so hard to loose friends and allies……
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bwest
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:50 am

It's a slow process where we are giving up our personal freedom and privacy for an, often fake, feeling of more security.

We live in a world which is dominated by fear. The threat is real, but exaggerated, by eager politicians and tabloid media, who both make their living on feeding this feeling of fear.

And they put us for a big moral dilemma: do we choose more security for us, for those we love, by giving up rights and freedom?

And for the moment, most of us are willing to do that. Because it's such a gradual process. It's a small thing here, another one there. But where will this end? In what society will we live in 10 years? Fingerprinting when entering a country is maybe just the start.
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sv2008
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting PennPal (Reply 26):
OH HORRORS!!! PLEASE, EVERY AMERICAN READING THIS...PRAY FOR A DEMOCRAT TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE SO THESE BELOVED EUROPEANS WILL START COMING BACK!!!!! WHAT WILL WE DO WITHOUT THEM??!?!?!? Yeah sure

How many business travellers do you think are from Europe?

What about tens of thousands of tourists every year?


I think you'd notice (or at least a lot of people) would if they did stop.

It's not a very friendly attitude.........most people would want to promote their countries to tourists.....not seal off the borders.

Europe relies on American tourists of course too but they welcome them  Smile
 
Derico
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RE: Finger-printing Of US Citizens In Brazil

Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:50 am

I don't have much sympathy for foreigners complaining about a sovereign nation's immigration policy.

Don't like the US policy? Don't go!

Foreign tourists have the power to bring the US to it's knees. For starters, Disneyworld and most of Orlando would go bankrupt within a year. Just for starters...
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