Derico
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See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:04 pm

I was reading some wire report about how the US foreign affairs department was predicting that Fidel Castro has 'only months' to live.

Ok, first I'm not pro-Castro and would like nothing more than to see Cuba have elections and open up to the world.

However, is it the business of ANY goverment to predict how long a foreign head of state have to 'live'??

If some other government came out saying G.W. Bush had only 'months' left, it would cause uproar, and deservedly so.

Does the US government ever learn??? Can't they just shut up and let things take place? That's just wrong.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:10 pm

I don't get your beef? If Queen Elizabeth were deathly ill, every gov't would want to know. If that gawddamn nut case in North Korea were deathly ill, every gov't would want to know.

Ditto with Uncle Fidel. As the leader of a country, one's death can have a tremendous impact on other countries.

While I don't consider Cuba a big deal, and I believe there will be little impact on any other country when Castro finally takes the dirt nap there are hundreds of thousands of Cuban immigrants in this country that will definitely want to know.

And who knows - maybe the US will pull it's head outta it's ass and lift the sanctions and travel bans to Cuba once ole' Fidel is a memory . . .

It's really no big deal IMO.
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halls120
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
I was reading some wire report about how the US foreign affairs department was predicting that Fidel Castro has 'only months' to live.

You might want to check the validity of your source. This is what Secretary Rice said on November 6, 2006.

Quote:
SECRETARY RICE: Well, clearly a transition is underway in Cuba one way or another. I don't have any information on the health of Fidel Castro. I think we don't know. But a transition is clearly underway and what has been a longstanding dictatorship is obviously going to come to an end sooner or later. I think our role and our goal has to be to insist that the Cuban people will have a real opportunity for a true democracy, that there wouldn't be just the transfer of power to another member of the regime but that the Cuban people will get to do what people throughout the Western Hemisphere are now doing. They'll get to select their leaders. There will be free and fair elections in which they can select their leaders. And that's what we're talking --
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Derico
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:15 pm

Well, from the standpoint of 'if it was a friendly nation's leader', I don't think there would have been such a report. It is true that there is no free press in Cuba, but I still don't see the point such a press release.

Look at it this way: I'm wondering what advantage does it really give? If we just look at it from that calculated viewpoint, I see no benenfit.

So the US gov doesn't like him. Breaking news. It still shows a slight case of bad karma, predicting someone's death, IMHO.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:18 pm

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NeilYYZ
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 3):
So the US gov doesn't like him. Breaking news. It still shows a slight case of bad karma, predicting someone's death, IMHO.

I'm sure that there are doctors that made the prediction. Nobody gets mad at the doctor who tells them that they have only months to live, this is just the US State Department releasing what I'm sure was determined by doctors.
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halls120
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 3):
Well, from the standpoint of 'if it was a friendly nation's leader', I don't think there would have been such a report. It is true that there is no free press in Cuba, but I still don't see the point such a press release.

Look at it this way: I'm wondering what advantage does it really give? If we just look at it from that calculated viewpoint, I see no benenfit.

So the US gov doesn't like him. Breaking news. It still shows a slight case of bad karma, predicting someone's death, IMHO

You still haven't cited the press release, or otherwise verified the accuracy of the article. Why are you taking it for granted that it is accurate?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Derico
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
You still haven't cited the press release, or otherwise verified the accuracy of the article. Why are you taking it for granted that it is accurate?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/12/world/main2174723.shtml

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 5):
I'm sure that there are doctors that made the prediction. Nobody gets mad at the doctor who tells them that they have only months to live, this is just the US State Department releasing what I'm sure was determined by doctors.

Hehe, for some reason I doubt the Cuban doctors that are I'm sure taking better care of Fidel than any of us will ever have, decided to give any 'scoop' such as this to Washington. Just my hunch!

If that is not the case, and I think we should assume it is, then it is a 'remote control' asessment. And I don't know how could doctors that have never seen x patient, arrive at such conclusions.
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RichPhitzwell
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:28 pm

I really dont understand our issue with Cuba....

The only things I know are:
Sugar
Missile crises


Why do we, the USA still care about Cuba?
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:34 pm

A person goes in for a "minor" intestinal procedure and requires a "one week" recovery period before going back to work.

Professionally speaking, if four months have past and that person still isn't back to work, it usually means one thing. Cancer. Metastatic cancer. Death.

Wondering how long Fidel has to live isn't an unreasonable concern.

Mark
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Derico
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:40 pm

That's true. I wasn't saying the US government was lying, as I'm pretty sure they are correct. I just think everyone should let things play out whatever way they will.
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halls120
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 7):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):You still haven't cited the press release, or otherwise verified the accuracy of the article. Why are you taking it for granted that it is accurate?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...shtml

In your original post, you said "I was reading some wire report about how the US foreign affairs department was predicting that Fidel Castro has 'only months' to live."

Problem is, that is not what happened. No one speaking officially on behalf of the US government stated the words you are upset about.

Here's the relevant part of the article.

"They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the politically sensitive topic."

So, you are upset because a news article quotes some unnamed sources who are alleged to be US government officials, and are speaking off the record.

I'm sure you can find something more credible to be upset about if you look a bit harder.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Derico
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:47 pm

"The government believes Fidel Castro's health is deteriorating and that the Cuban dictator is unlikely to live through 2007."

That sound somewhat like to what I was saying. I'm sure other news sources will quote this somewhat the way I quoted it.

I was just pointing out that perhaps that best course is to just stay on the sides, and not give the Cuban regime more reason to claim 'the system must stay', because the US was salivating at Castro's inevitable death.
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halls120
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
"The government believes Fidel Castro's health is deteriorating and that the Cuban dictator is unlikely to live through 2007."

That sound somewhat like to what I was saying. I'm sure other news sources will quote this somewhat the way I quoted it.

I was just pointing out that perhaps that best course is to just stay on the sides, and not give the Cuban regime more reason to claim 'the system must stay', because the US was salivating at Castro's inevitable death.

No one from the US Government was quoted saying what you've posted. That is what CBS news is reporting, based on what some unnamed officials have said, speaking off the record because they haven't been authorized to speak on the subject.

Until someone officially talks about Castro's death, your outrage should be directed at the news media, not the USG.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Pope
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
I was just pointing out that perhaps that best course is to just stay on the sides, and not give the Cuban regime more reason to claim 'the system must stay', because the US was salivating at Castro's inevitable death.

With Cuba 90 miles from Florida and the potential exodus that Castro's fall could cause, why don't you think the US government has a huge interest in preparing first responders at all levels of a possible humanitarian emergency?

The US is clearly not on the sidelines with respect to Castro's death.
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express1
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):

I think your beef needs more seasoning,and umm dont forget the gravy!!!


dave
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checkraiser
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Express1 (Reply 15):
I think your beef needs more seasoning,and umm dont forget the gravy!!!

Gravy on a prime cut like that???  eyepopping 

It's not British beef, it needs no further seasoning.  Wink
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Banco
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 16):
It's not British beef, it needs no further seasoning.

All those hormones add to the flavour do they?  Wink
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checkraiser
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:02 am

Any American (or Canadian) who has traveled abroad will tell you that foreign beef is inferior.

This subject and the reasons for it probably warrant its own thread,
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Banco
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 18):
Any American (or Canadian) who has traveled abroad will tell you that foreign beef is inferior.

I quite like Canadian beef, haven't had enough of American to form a judgement. But Australian is very good, and I suspect our Argentine friends would have something to say about beef quality as well - theirs is the best in the world.
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SlamClick
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:41 am

So as I understand it, your 'beef' with the USG is based on your own superstition that it is somehow bad juju to talk about an obviously imminent death. I'm glad they are talking about the obvious. I'd hate to think Castro would die and the US State Department would say: "Well I never saw that coming.

There are people whose job descriptions include predicting the course of the transfer of power in Cuba after his demise. It is an issue of some importance to the USA and rightly so. Anyone who thinks there will be a free and open election afterwards to select a new leader does not remember how old style Latin military dictatorships a la Castro or, for that matter, Fulgencio Batista function. There are people in power who will wish to stay in power just as there were in Iraq.

And by the way, every Government on earth is already talking about the changing landscape in Washington DC owing to our President becoming a "lame duck" and the high probability of his entire party's losing the 2008 elections. It is not disrespect, it is just reality.
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andessmf
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 8):
I really dont understand our issue with Cuba....

It's pretty easy if you think about it. The 'revolution' did not displace the poor people of Cuba, it displaced the 'elites', and those were the majority of Cubans that moved to Miami expecting to return soon. They left behind houses and businesses in Cuba when the government took them over, and were rightfully angry at the turn of events.

Being part of the more educated and savvy Cubans, they have been able to effectively turn their displeasure into concrete political action. Cubans are the Hispanic group where their majority came from the higher social classes, unlike a lot of immigrants from LatAm that came to the US from the lower social classes. Unfortunately, Hispanics from the lower classes were not well versed in politics.
 
Queso
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
See, This Is My Beef With The US Government
Derico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 2634 posts, RR: 3

Speaking on behalf of my countrymen...

 
Derico
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:16 pm

Fine, as long as I don't ever again see a post where Americans take some statement by the 3rd whip agitant-in training of the secretary in the ministery of Musique Concrete of some other country, and run with it as being the 'official belief' on entire nations or continents...

... Then I will swallow the 'Queso style' replies in this thread.

But again, I will be watching!
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ANCFlyer
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
and I suspect our Argentine friends would have something to say about beef quality as well - theirs is the best in the world.

Yup, Argentine Beef is the top dog . . . beats Harris Ranch here in the States.

As for the thread starters Beef, it's still a non-starter . . .  yawn 
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:20 pm

I like bison. There's a huge bison ranch a couple miles from me, so I can get anytime.

http://www.silverbison.com/



Mark

[Edited 2006-11-14 05:27:12]
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
However, is it the business of ANY goverment to predict how long a foreign head of state have to 'live'??

It should be in the business of all governements.

In democratic countries, officials are elected to look after the welfare of it's citizens. In the US this include monitoring the stability of the neighboring countries. In this case, Cuba is a very close neighbor, and due to recent history , is subject to heavy monitoring.

Although predicting one's imminent demise is a bit morbid and seemingly a bit immoral on a personal level, it has big ramifications.

Castro has a profound effect on US foriegn policy in Cuba. his death has the potential to change that policy in many ways, so monitoring his health is in the interest of US policy.

Osama, the leader of North Korea and the leader of Iran are monitored in much the same way.
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RichPhitzwell
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
Yup, Argentine Beef is the top dog . . . beats Harris Ranch here in the States.

As for the thread starters Beef, it's still a non-starter . . .

I personnaly prefer Gato Tacos  Big grin
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miamix707
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
While I don't consider Cuba a big deal, and I believe there will be little impact on any other country when Castro finally takes the dirt nap there are hundreds of thousands of Cuban immigrants in this country that will definitely want to know.

Castro has been directly and indirectly responsible for more problems in the Americas and more headaches for the US than you might think. No impact to other countries? The negative financial impact for Caribbean area territories such as Jamaica, the Bahamas, Cayman Islands.. could be felt as they could take a heavy hit from a likely tourist drop.


Quoting Derico (Reply 3):
Look at it this way: I'm wondering what advantage does it really give? If we just look at it from that calculated viewpoint, I see no benenfit.

Cuba, unlike Argentina, will surely appreciate new relations with the United States. The country can't wait to freely move to a market economy, and to a government that hopefully will mirror the structure of the US's.

This is assuming Castro and his designated successors aren't there.. since there's no more stubborn and feared/respected figure other than Castro, therefore after he's gone.. there should be automatic improvements by default.

As for the rest of latin america, no more destabilization of the region thanks to Cuba. The Hugo Chavez and the Evo Morales don't have the charisma and their ideas don't have the same iconic admiration by the people as el viejo loco Fidel's had.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):
Cubans are the Hispanic group where their majority came from the higher social classes, unlike a lot of immigrants from LatAm that came to the US from the lower social classes. Unfortunately, Hispanics from the lower classes were not well versed in politics.

Let me clarify, in Cuba there's no such thing as a "high class" and attributes one might associate with that like money, finesse etc (generally speaking) since that goes against the philosophy of communism. The current middle and high class Cubans in the exile are self-made pretty much. The ones that came from Cuba with wealth in the late 50's / early 60's are getting old or have died already.

AndesSMF, you are spot on in last sentence about poor Hispanics "not being well versed in politics" my friend. It happens everywhere. In Latin America it is leading to even more inept leftist "leaders"; in the Arab world it's leading to more widespread Islamic terrorism. Just part of the reality of int'l politics in the 21st century.
 
andessmf
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:29 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 28):
The current middle and high class Cubans in the exile are self-made pretty much. The ones that came from Cuba with wealth in the late 50's / early 60's are getting old or have died already.

I understand that there are no middle and high class in Cuba, unless you are a member of the party elite. I was referring to the people who left Cuba after the revolution. The ones that left where the ones that had the most to lose under communism.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 28):
you are spot on in last sentence about poor Hispanics "not being well versed in politics" my friend. It happens everywhere. In Latin America it is leading to even more inept leftist "leaders"

I have to disagree. I have spoken to many of my family in Ecuador, even those who are not wealthy, who firmly believe Chavez is an uneducated fool. And during my last trip to Cancun, I was surprised to find the blue collar workers firmly oppossed to the leftist policies of Lopez Obrador. In all these chats about the leftist leanings of LatAm, we forget that most LatAm countries are firmly going the other way. There have been many countries where a candidates alliance or support for Chavez has been used against them successfully.
 
miamix707
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 29):
I have to disagree

well if you want to backpedal from your original statement that's ok..

Anyways, no, Mexico almost voted Lopez Obrador in, the other candidate won by a rather slim margin. I guess enough Mexicans knew enough not to vote for this idiot. Chavez was elected by a majority, Tavare was elected in Uruguay, Evo Morales the pro-coca president in Bolivia. Lula was re-elected in Brazil.. so if you want to all of the sudden "disagree" ok..  Smile

The only country where the Chavez-backed candidate didn't win was in Peru (not many countries, just one).

Ecuador itself is a mess, how many presidents have you guys had since 1999? Good thing none of those has been has been a communist dictator like Chavez. Count yourself lucky.

Since you specifically mentioned "Hispanics", ask any Spanish friends of yours from Spain. Over there (we're talking about the supposedly more enlightened Europe now); you'll hear praise for Fidel Castro or Even Hugo Chavez before you hear anything pro-Bush. They hate Bush and dislike Americans over there (mostly out of envy).
 
andessmf
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):

Lula is nothing like Chavez. Neither are the socialists in Chile. And in Ecuador, things are a mess, but at least we get rid of our garbage, unlike other LatAm countries. But my disagreement was more of a sign of hope for the region. IMHO, the ME suffers from almost a complete ignorance of the cause of their problems, but in LatAm I have not witnessed much of the blame placed on other wrong targets for their misfortunes. And people are much more willing to try to improve their lot on life.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):
you'll hear praise for Fidel Castro or Even Hugo Chavez before you hear anything pro-Bush.

I have always remarked whenever Chavez gets into threads here that no LatAm people support him, only Americans and Europeans. It got so bad not long ago that we had an European telling us he knew better than us, much like centuries ago. I was appalled.
 
wukka
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RE: See, This Is My Beef With The US Government

Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:23 pm

This whole thread is pretty much bullshit.

Do any of you remember waiting on the outcome of Ronald Reagan getting a finger up the ass over potential cancer?

He had some guesstimates placed on his life by foreign politicians, no?

That said, you can be damn sure that those foreign governments waiting for those results were analyzing their response to a +/- outcome.

Now it's Castro. Same shit, different day. Gorby was in there somewhere with a scare, Lady Di kicked it, and JPII finally checked out.

A bunch of assholes were busting a nut hoping that Cheney would take an extended nap after his run-in with the reaper.

To hell with your beef, Derico. When any world leader has health issues, the whole world takes notice, and not just your US scapegoat. There are plenty others watching this situation quite closely.

This topic should be changed to "See, This Is My Beef With World Politics".

You want to have "beef" with US for this crap? Fine. I'm part of the US, and my "beef" with you is that you apparently have tunnel-vision regarding the US and Cuba.
We can agree to disagree.

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