Thom@s
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Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:21 am

Suggestions to introduce milder forms of punishments in cases where someone are found guilty of cheating in a marriage, will most likely be approved by the government in Pakistan soon.

As it would be normal to sentence a person to whipping, or even death for having an affair, the new suggestion is to sentence them to 5 years prison tops.

In rape cases, a victim would need at least 4 witnesses to press charges against the rapist, but the new suggestion is to remove this rule, so that any victim can press charges following a rape.

Good to see things move in the right direction.

Thom@s
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jaysit
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:23 am

Good to learn that Pakistani Shariah lawmakers are moving from the 8th to the 9th century.
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777236ER
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:41 am

Wait, isn't Pakistan an ally?
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
Wait, isn't Pakistan an ally?

It is a MUSLIM ally. Your point?
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DrDeke
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:54 am

Yep, it's a start.

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N1120A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
It is a MUSLIM ally. Your point?

As opposed to this CHRISTIAN country that made it legal to ban homosexuality until a few years ago?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
Good to learn that Pakistani Shariah lawmakers are moving from the 8th to the 9th century.

You mean their dictator?
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jaysit
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 2):
Wait, isn't Pakistan an ally?

But what does that have to do with anything?

As Borat sayeth, "in Kazakhstan, woman pull plow and is below rat but above cocroach." And "you like Kazakhstan? I like US of A. We want your President, George Walter Bush and his father Barbra to crush Iraq."
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MYT332
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:05 am

I read the title totally wrong. I was quite disgusted!

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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
As opposed to this CHRISTIAN country that made it legal to ban homosexuality until a few years ago?

When was the last christian country to put someone to death for the crime of homosexuality, or cheating on your spouse? Or even putting them in jail?
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N1120A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
When was the last christian country to put someone to death for the crime of homosexuality, or cheating on your spouse? Or even putting them in jail?

Well, while the US is inherently secular, many consider it a "christian" country and it was legal to put people in jail for homosexuality prior to Lawrence v. Texas
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Well, while the US is inherently secular, many consider it a "christian" country and it was legal to put people in jail for homosexuality prior to Lawrence v. Texas

And when was that?
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Thom@s
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 7):

Damn you, now I've got to buy some eggs...

Mmmm, kinder eggs...

Thom@s
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DrDeke
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
And when was that?

That was in 2003.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZS.html

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MDorBust
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Well, while the US is inherently secular, many consider it a "christian" country and it was legal to put people in jail for homosexuality prior to Lawrence v. Texas

Now now, Texas Penal Code sec 21.06 was only a class C Misdemeanor. A class C Misdemeanor is punishable in Texas by a fine not to exceed $500.

That being said, that law still needed to be struck down.
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N1120A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
Now now, Texas Penal Code sec 21.06 was only a class C Misdemeanor. A class C Misdemeanor is punishable in Texas by a fine not to exceed $500.

That being said, that law still needed to be struck down.

Upon being arrested, you can be thrown in jail for any arrestable offense in the US, which was a Supreme Court verdict coming out of your own state in County of Lago Vista.
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MDorBust
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Upon being arrested, you can be thrown in jail for any arrestable offense in the US, which was a Supreme Court verdict coming out of your own state in County of Lago Vista.

I'll go you one better. You can be tossed in the clink for investigative detention based upon reasonable suspicion of having committed an arrestable offense.

Also, failing to put forth the given bond, you can be held in custodial detention until such time as your trial.

But, we are both getting off on a tangent here.

What we should be getting at is that you couldn't be sentenced to jail time for violating the old Texas homosexual conduct law.
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 12):
That was in 2003.

Thanks for the text. Some quotes from the Supreme Court Decision"

Quote:

It should be noted, however, that there is no longstanding history in this country of laws directed at homosexual conduct as a distinct matter...

Moreover, early sodomy laws seem not to have been enforced against consenting adults acting in private. Instead, sodomy prosecutions often involved predatory acts against those who could not or did not consent: relations between men and minor girls or boys, between adults involving force, between adults implicating disparity in status, or between men and animals...

Far from possessing "ancient roots," ibid., American laws targeting same-sex couples did not develop until the last third of the 20th century. ...

The 25 States with laws prohibiting the conduct referenced in Bowers are reduced now to 13, of which 4 enforce their laws only against homosexual conduct. In those States, including Texas, that still proscribe sodomy (whether for same-sex or heterosexual conduct), there is a pattern of nonenforcement with respect to consenting adults acting in private.

So while there was a brief period during the late 20th century when such laws were put on the books, they never seemed to be really enforced. And in the few cases that they did get enforced, the sentences were never so severe as death or long prison sentences.

So N1120A implication that the US is guilty of the same treatment of gays as many Muslim countries is false at worst, and a gross exaggeration at best.
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N1120A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
Also, failing to put forth the given bond, you can be held in custodial detention until such time as your trial.

Of course you can

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
So N1120A implication that the US is guilty of the same treatment of gays as many Muslim countries is false at worst, and a gross exaggeration at best.

Read my quote. I said that it was legal to ban homosexuality and jail people for being gay in the US until 2003, which it was. Oh, and if you want some accurate information on your favorite whipping country, try a gay website. Make sure to read the part on the realities of being gay too, not just your pre-thought outcome.

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/08/080305iranFolo.htm
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777236ER
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 3):
It is a MUSLIM ally. Your point?

I don't think the religion of the country has got anything to do with it. My point is the sheer hypocrisy in supporting a nation with such a dubious human rights record, whilst attacking other nations for theirs (apparently).

You know, when you write a post for the sole purpose of bashing a belief that a billion people have, it might be time to take a breath and step back from the computer.

[Edited 2006-11-16 23:52:42]
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jaysit
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:19 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6152520.stm

Now it appears that the Mullahs are crying foul that these ostensibly progressive rape laws are a secular plot to destroy Islamic Pakistan.

Now where have I heard that kind of stuff before?

Oh, yes. Right here in the US of A. Substitute Islamic Pakistan for Christian America and you got yourself thousands of Republican politicians.
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 18):
I don't think the religion of the country has got anything to do with it. My point is the sheer hypocrisy in supporting a nation with such a dubious human rights record, whilst attacking other nations for theirs (apparently).



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Now it appears that the Mullahs are crying foul that these ostensibly progressive rape laws are a secular plot to destroy Islamic Pakistan.

I rest my case
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halls120
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 1):
Good to learn that Pakistani Shariah lawmakers are moving from the 8th to the 9th century.

 rotfl 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
When was the last christian country to put someone to death for the crime of homosexuality, or cheating on your spouse? Or even putting them in jail?

Well, while the US is inherently secular, many consider it a "christian" country and it was legal to put people in jail for homosexuality prior to Lawrence v. Texas

You are avoiding most of the question, which was when was the last time a Christian country put someone to death for being a homosexual, or for cheating on their spouse.

Are you seriously maintaining that going to jail for being homosexual is no different than being executed for being homesxual?
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777236ER
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
I rest my case

You do? A 'secular plot'? That sounds more like Christian fundamentalists in the US rather than Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan. Maybe they're learning.
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 22):
You do? A 'secular plot'? That sounds more like Christian fundamentalists in the US rather than Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan. Maybe they're learning.

My point being that Muslim nations behave differently from the rest of the world. As much as we'd like to, we can't force them to give up their 13th century thinking overnight. At the same time, we live in a world where we have to work together, even if we don't particularly like each other.
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jaysit
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:51 am

I doubt if anyone has been put to death (legally that is) for being gay in the West (except for those infamous Nazi years in Germany) for several decades at least. That having been said, arrests of men engaging in gay sex even in their homes was rampant right through the early 1970s in many parts of the US.

The problem with the sodomy and especially the gay sodomy laws being on the books was that it served as a catch-all accusation of criminal doing or intent for gay men and women in all sorts of situations - employment, housing, child custody, etc. And for that reason, many social conservatives insisted that such laws stayed on the books. When GWB was Governor of Texas, he was presented with the opportunity of stripping these statutes from the books, but refused to do so on "moral" grounds.

At the end of the day, the discrimination that anti-sodomy laws created was more insidious and affected gay Americans in ways that they couldn't imagine. Yes, you weren't trotted off to chop chop square and beheaded or stoned like in some Islamic backwater, but I'd like to think that our standards of civil rights and social progress are centuries ahead of the Saudis or the flea bitten Mullahs who haunt Mullah-stan everywhere. Comparisons with Mullah-world are, thus, odious at best.
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satx
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:54 pm

The US doesn't put gays in jail or kill them, but we've been through our own dark ages as well. In fact previous generations used to burn folks at the stake simply because they thought they might be witches. Also unless I'm mistaken you can still fire someone for being gay and you can discriminate against them in other ways so long as you're careful not to run afoul of any other laws. Personally, I think that comparing us to Pakistan is a terrible way to make the US look good anyhow.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:22 pm

That way the General is doing something to sort out these problems.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 7):
I read the title totally wrong. I was quite disgusted!

Hehe - put to death with chocolate eggs ! What a way to go.  Smile

As for these changes, it's hardly earth-shattering. Might as well just adjust the size of the stones downwards, or chop their heads of with a buzzsaw instead of a sword. It's still completely backwards and barbaric, and I don't care how culturally insensitive that sounds. Mullah-world needs to catch up (and so does Texas !)
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N1120A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
Are you seriously maintaining that going to jail for being homosexual is no different than being executed for being homesxual?

The point is the legality, not the sentence.
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cfalk
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
The point is the legality, not the sentence.

 redflag 

Did you know that in Canada, it's illegal to climb trees? Or that in Switzerland, it is illegal for a man to pee in a toilet standing up after 10 PM? Those laws are on the books. But as nobody enforces them, they are irrelevant.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Pakistan Suggest "kinder" Sex Laws.

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 29):
Or that in Switzerland, it is illegal for a man to pee in a toilet standing up after 10 PM?

I thought it was also illegal to flush the toilet in Switzerland after 10pm.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 29):
But as nobody enforces them, they are irrelevant.

I heard anecdotally that the law in Switzerland is enforced, if you have particularly invasive neighbours.
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