halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

New French Premier?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:38 pm

OK, so she's a socialist. And she's old. (My age, in fact)

But you've got to admit that she's pretty hot for a 53 year old woman.

Quote:
Frenchwoman May Be First to Lead France

By JAMEY KEATEN
Associated Press Writer
PARIS

Segolene Royal, a former environment minister who has shaken up French politics with her grassroots campaign, won the overwhelming backing of the main opposition Socialist Party in her bid to become the country's first female president.

Royal's triumph Thursday night over former Prime Minister Laurent Fabius and former Finance Minister Dominique Strauss-Kahn means she can head into the April election claiming the oft-divided party is fully behind her.

A 53-year-old mother of four, Royal distinguishes herself from most lofty and grave French politicians by small signals: She smiles. She often wears white. Her catch phrases "participative democracy" and "collective intelligence" put faith in ordinary people.



"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
JGPH1A
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RE: New French Premier?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:22 pm

New president, at least possibly, next April. The premier is still the clueless De Villepin.

Better Sego than Sarko, on general principle. The UMP are self-serving pork-barrelling gravy-train riders without an ounce of common decency between them. The socialists may be suffering from a severe lack of clue, but there is at least some notion of the common good in there. If I was allowed to vote, I'd vote for Segoline.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: New French Premier?

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
If I was allowed to vote

Yes, that rule about the certified insane not being permitted a vote must really annoy you.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
she's a socialist.

true, but she has absolutely NO desire to be French Premier !!!! She wants to be PRESIDENT ! A premier / prime-minister in France is an important but relatively powerless pleasure. Some prime-ministers like Georges Pompidou and Jacques Chirac managed to become presidents later on, but others like Jean-Jacques Chaban-Delmas, Maurice Couve de Murville, and others failed in this endeavour.
 
DernierVirage
Posts: 222
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
A 53-year-old mother of four, Royal distinguishes herself from most lofty and grave French politicians by small signals: She smiles. She often wears white. Her catch phrases "participative democracy" and "collective intelligence" put faith in ordinary people.

The newspaper article you quoted summarises what worries me most about the presidential elections here. It is going to be a mixture of a media circus (even more than before) and a reality show, where real issues and intelligent debate will be forgotten.

The winning candidate should need more than catch phrases and a nice smile to convince the voters, but maybe that is all that she will need !
 
LH526
Crew
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:40 am

A socialist called Royal .... now go figure  Smile

Anyway, I'm not that deep into french politics to state a propper oppinion, so I leave it to the insiders.

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
halls120
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
true, but she has absolutely NO desire to be French Premier !!!! She wants to be PRESIDENT !

My bad.  blush 

I was too busy looking at the pictures and not focusing on the fact she is running for President.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ozglobal
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:44 am

The last thing France needs now if for the Socialists to have another go at the economic system. I'm not right wing capitalist, but it's moderate reforms that are needed not more "eternal gateau" policies.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 7):
The last thing France needs now if for the Socialists to have another go at the economic system.

Quite correct, the chances of Segolene Royal however are fairly good. Because the situation on the right is
Nicolas Sarkozy : competent and full of energy, but a lack of charisma
Dominique de Villepin : charismatic, but possibly a bit too aristocratic
Jacques Chirac : experience and some charm with women, but "greying"
each of them ability-wise high above Segolene Royal, but she promises "change", whatever that really may be
 
N1120A
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Nicolas Sarkozy : competent and full of energy, but a lack of charisma

Sarkozy is only a step or two above Le Pen.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Dominique de Villepin : charismatic, but possibly a bit too aristocratic

de Villepin has no business running a country. You are right about his aristocratic nature in that he appears to not actually have his head in modern France

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Jacques Chirac : experience and some charm with women, but "greying"

Retiring anyway.

Royal is by far the best choice. She is forward thinking with one eye toward reform and the other toward keeping France the amazing place to live that it is today.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
de Villepin has no business running a country

he as Prime Minister to some extent IS running the country. And when Mr Chirac was "out-of-business" for 2 or 3 months, he practically acted as president. So that he would be able to lead as president.
-
It is possible that Chirac will try and maybe even win again, and then after 2 years will resign, making de Villepin his successor. A bit like CDG made Georges Pompidou president in 1968 .
-
 
Beaucaire
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:08 pm

Ségolène Royal shocked last month the Iraqi prime minister on visit to Paris with a statement,that "..things look quite good in Iraq.."..
That women has not the slightest clue on foreign politics and economics. She's all wrapping and populist marketing but has no substance whatsoever..
Yes she appeals on TV and political rallies,but former (Socialist) PM Michel Rocard warned her becoming president...
Her only qualification- being a good looking female politician- is not enough to bring a serious change in France.
Many former "collaborateurs" from Royal have distanced themselves from her ( like Claude Allégre..),claiming her despotic style of running operations.No criticism allowed,it's my opinion and nothing else.She seriously suggested revolutionary style"public courts" to judge the politicians and their performances..
I'm not a fan of Sarkozy neither -so what to do in France- choice between bad and bad...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
statement,that "..things look quite good in Iraq.."..
That women has not the slightest clue

but what about news on radio and TV and in the newspapers ? very strange !
 
Kieron747
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:16 pm



Kieron747
Airliners.Net - The Jam Rag Of The Web.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:21 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Ségolène Royal shocked last month the Iraqi prime minister on visit to Paris with a statement,that "..things look quite good in Iraq.."..

My gut is telling me there is a wider context to that quote.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Toulouse
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
New president, at least possibly, next April. The premier is still the clueless De Villepin.

Better Sego than Sarko, on general principle. The UMP are self-serving pork-barrelling gravy-train riders without an ounce of common decency between them. The socialists may be suffering from a severe lack of clue, but there is at least some notion of the common good in there. If I was allowed to vote, I'd vote for Segoline.

I agree with you JGPH1A.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Quite correct, the chances of Segolene Royal however are fairly good. Because the situation on the right is
Nicolas Sarkozy : competent and full of energy, but a lack of charisma
Dominique de Villepin : charismatic, but possibly a bit too aristocratic
Jacques Chirac : experience and some charm with women, but "greying"
each of them ability-wise high above Segolene Royal, but she promises "change", whatever that really may be

A faily good analysis, yet I'm not sure I'd say Sarkozy lack charisma, but the thoughts of him winning terrify nearly as much as the idea of J. Le Pen.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Sarkozy is only a step or two above Le Pen.

I agree. I was surprised to see a list of intention of vote for the first round of voting at the moment form some survey printed this Sunday in the wonderful (NOT) Depeche du Midi (actually based on a survey carried out for Le Figaro), and Sarkozy and Royal were both at 36% and Le Pen at 13%!!! Are the French going to play the same silly game as in the last elections and give high votes to Le Pen the first time around?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
She seriously suggested revolutionary style"public courts" to judge the politicians and their performances..

And what's wrong with this in your opinion Beaucaire?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
I'm not a fan of Sarkozy neither -so what to do in France- choice between bad and bad...

That, I most probably agree with you on.

All I can say is that's what is clear is the France desperately NEEDS A CHANGE, and possible Royal is the only possible candidate who may offer some change to the French political scene (not saying she's the most ideal, but the best out of a bad selection)
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:48 pm

Well, it seems that the trend continues. Angela Merkel in Germany, now Segolene Royal in France with a real chance and in 2008 Hillary in the US



+



+



will make the next G8 an interesting exchange of haute couture and recipes!

 Wink

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Sarkozy is only a step or two above Le Pen.

... No. At all. Sarkozy is anything but an understated fascist. More of an atlantist. That is really cheap leftist propaganda, quite disappointing N112.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Dominique de Villepin : charismatic

... ahem.. NO. He is a far cry from feeling close to the people. Totally out of touch. And clueless.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Jacques Chirac : experience and some charm with women, but "greying"

Nice statement but to me he is completely out, discredited, with a dismal record and very poor performance.
Take off and live
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 17):
completely out, discredited, with a dismal record and very poor performance.

no, you wildly exaggerate. He is NOT discredited and his record and his performance is OK, less overwhelming than Valery Giscard d'Estaing but equal to Mitterand and better than Pompidou.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 17):
Dominique de Villepin : charismatic
-
... ahem.. NO. He is a far cry from feeling close to the people. Totally out of touch. And clueless.

I would say close enough to the people, and neither out of touch nor clueless. And he during the Iraq matter in the UN has shown his abilities. I was impressed.
-
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
but equal to Mitterand

Now that's an insult to Mitterrand lol (and am no fan of him neither!)

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
And he during the Iraq matter in the UN has shown his abilities. I was impressed.

Well to me he was arrogant and antagonized the US-led effort. He has shown since that he is also unable to manage internal politics more diplomatically. France has had enough aristocrats in politics and he is the current worst example of that.

Besides, I have some doubts about his sanity. Something weird about the guy. Maybe it is just l lack of social skills or political training.
Take off and live
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 19):
he was arrogant

He in the UN also represented Germany and the Arab World in an excellent and admirable way. He had my applause for the good work !  bigthumbsup  yes 
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
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RE: New French Premier?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:42 pm

What France needs is a political leader that has the courage to attack the most vital problems of the country :
- the cost of labour is too expensive-too much overhead cost for companies and independent worker...
-the social fracture that has led France to become a two class society is inflicting heavy damage to the middle class.Life has become too expensive due to heavy taxation,hopeless oversized administration and the associated cost to entertain them
-the status of long-time immigrants has to be legalized or they have to be expelled-I tend to agree with Sarkozy on this matter
-the system does not encourage Independence-I have set up my own small business and even before invoicing anything had to pay taxes and "URSSAF" charges-the best way to kill initiatives !
-Banks in France are completely hopeless- they are the pillows of the static way things are handled and profit from monopoly-type economic policies.
Takeovers in France are very much ore difficult to pass than in other countries.
-Local taxes are increasing at a frightening rate ( that is housing taxes,real-estate taxes,water charges,waste-water fees etc..) Some people have seen their housing taxes increased by 45 % in two years !!! -politicians should put a break to this stupid system,that makes ownership more expensive than rental of homes.
-Inheritance tax is absolutely awesome -if a same family member inherits a home,he might pay as much as 60 % heritage taxes in France,obliging him to sell the property in order to accept the last will of a deceased family member...
-Paris is still the water-head of France -genuine de-centralizd economic or political life is rather an illusion.
-The law system is based on "Napoleon System" -that means you are guilty as long as you don't prove you are innocent.Tons of innocent people stay in jail because of this stupid system -sometimes more than 3 years -without anybody seriously looking into their innocence but rather trying to find proof of guilt.

Any serious contender of presidency should try to tackle those issues-
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 14):
My gut is telling me there is a wider context to that quote.

«Le pays [l’Irak] est en train de se redresser. Il y a à la fois des éléments de lumière mais aussi des formes de terrorisme. Le gouvernement français est au côté du gouvernement irakien, les socialistes français aussi.»

Translated it means :
The Iraq is recovering.There are strong elements of light (meaning hope ??)but also terror.The French government is standing side by side with the Iraqi government , as are the french Socialists..

Could someone please explain to me, what the French Socialist have to do with supporting the american politics in Iraq????
The Iraqi president was quite puzzled about that statement.....!
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 15):
I agree. I was surprised to see a list of intention of vote for the first round of voting at the moment form some survey printed this Sunday in the wonderful (NOT) Depeche du Midi (actually based on a survey carried out for Le Figaro), and Sarkozy and Royal were both at 36% and Le Pen at 13%!!! Are the French going to play the same silly game as in the last elections and give high votes to Le Pen the first time around?

One of the big problems last time was the Socialists throwing every politician and their mother up as a candidate, which completely diluted the vote and ensured that Jospin wouldn't make the run off. That handed the presidency to Chirac

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
It is possible that Chirac will try and maybe even win again, and then after 2 years will resign, making de Villepin his successor. A bit like CDG made Georges Pompidou president in 1968 .

Which would pretty much assure that Royal or another Socialist won the next election

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 17):
... No. At all. Sarkozy is anything but an understated fascist. More of an atlantist. That is really cheap leftist propaganda, quite disappointing N112.

An Atlantist? Sarkozy's immigration proposals are nearly as draconian as the crap Le Pen has demanded and his foreign policy seems to favor becoming another Britain

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
-the status of long-time immigrants has to be legalized or they have to be expelled-I tend to agree with Sarkozy on this matter

My problem with Sarkozy's plan is that the latter is what he wants.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
-Banks in France are completely hopeless- they are the pillows of the static way things are handled and profit from monopoly-type economic policies.

They are like that all over. It is something that needs to be handled worldwide

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
-Paris is still the water-head of France -genuine de-centralizd economic or political life is rather an illusion.

And the UK doesn't have that issue with London?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 21):
-The law system is based on "Napoleon System" -that means you are guilty as long as you don't prove you are innocent.Tons of innocent people stay in jail because of this stupid system -sometimes more than 3 years -without anybody seriously looking into their innocence but rather trying to find proof of guilt.

Complete agreement. Other places that have Code based systems but are part of overall common law countries, Quebec and Louisiana come to mind, meld the idea of innocent until proven guilty and a code quite well.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:38 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
t is possible that Chirac will try and maybe even win again, and then after 2 years will resign, making de Villepin his successor. A bit like CDG made Georges Pompidou president in 1968 .
--
Which would pretty much assure that Royal or another Socialist won the next election

Maybe. But after such a long time of "bourgeois" rule, a change will be overdue anyway.
-

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Banks in France are completely hopeless- they are the pillows of the static way things are handled and profit from monopoly-type economic policies.
--
They are like that all over.

exactly. Try to open a bank-account in any foreign bank in Zurich, and there are hundreds of such companies. NONE will accept it, which means that the local majors have a defacto "triopoly". And the situation presumably is not much different elsewhere, in spite of all the "free trade" talk
-

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
-Paris is still the water-head of France -genuine de-centralizd economic or political life is rather an illusion.
--
And the UK doesn't have that issue with London?

Not to the extent of Paris. British companies with domicile in other parts of the country do NOT have "management-offices" in the Capital. There are British transport companies without any office in London but in a dozen other places. No, I think that Paris is THE example of a centralized economy. Look at airlines. Something like BMI would be impossible in France. Check the desks at French airports. You will find maps of Paris, you will find literature about cinemas and restaurants etc in Paris, but NOTHING about the city where you really are. Examples: Mulhouse, Nice, Marseille, Annecy, Lyons, Dinard . To give a difference. Switzerland. Where the Capital is only the 4th or 5th city of the country. Where Zurich, Geneva and Basel share most things of importance. Where the operational HQ of the National Bank is in Zurich, just as the National Museum. Where the European HQ of the UN is in Geneva. Where the Supreme Court just as the IOC are in Lausanne. Or the USA or Australia (Washington/DC or Canberra). True enough, to see the British Capital shifted back to Winchester might be interesting, and France shifting its Capital to Reims or Tonnerre or Auxerre would also signify REAL change !
-

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
-The law system is based on "Napoleon System" -that means you are guilty as long as you don't prove you are innocent.Tons of innocent people stay in jail because of this stupid system -sometimes more than 3 years -without anybody seriously looking into their innocence but rather trying to find proof of guilt.
----
Complete agreement. Other places that have Code based systems but are part of overall common law countries, Quebec and Louisiana come to mind, meld the idea of innocent until proven guilty and a code quite well.

-
Most countries in Continental Europe have law systems based on the Code Napoleon, and have the "innocent-until-proven-guilty" principle, and justify this principle exactly with that Code Napoleon. So that I have the impression that somebody in France changed that principle in CONTRADICTION to that code, but possibly in agreement with some political or administrative "requirement".
-
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
There are British transport companies without any office in London but in a dozen other places.

In reality though, all of them have a London base. Stagecoach, First, Arriva, etc. All have a connection to London, even if they claim their head office in another city.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
True enough, to see the British Capital shifted back to Winchester might be interesting, and France shifting its Capital to Reims or Tonnerre or Auxerre would also signify REAL change !

Both of which would be travesties.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
To give a difference. Switzerland. Where the Capital is only the 4th or 5th city of the country. Where Zurich, Geneva and Basel share most things of importance. Where the operational HQ of the National Bank is in Zurich, just as the National Museum. Where the European HQ of the UN is in Geneva. Where the Supreme Court just as the IOC are in Lausanne. Or the USA or Australia (Washington/DC or Canberra).

The reason for all three of those systems is that they are all decentralized federalist systems as opposed to unitary as in the UK or quasi-unitary as in France. In France and the UK, the systems of government necessitate companies being close to the government that runs things, which is what London and Paris do. Cantons in Switzerland, States in the US and Australia and Provinces in Canada all have a great deal of power over their respective populations and the federal court systems only apply for interstate action (at least in the case of the US and Canada), which means that you end up having companies as citizens of their various places of operation.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
In reality though, all of them have a London base. Stagecoach, First, Arriva, etc



Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
In France and the UK, the systems of government necessitate companies being close to the government that runs things

Er. No. It has absolutely nothing to do with "government" in the UK, which doesn't remotely get involved in the private sector in the way the French do. The companies you mention are listed on the FTSE, which is why they have London offices. Nothing to do with government, but everything to do with having a headquarters located near the City of London, Europe's largest financial centre.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:49 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 26):
Er. No. It has absolutely nothing to do with "government" in the UK, which doesn't remotely get involved in the private sector in the way the French do. The companies you mention are listed on the FTSE, which is why they have London offices. Nothing to do with government, but everything to do with having a headquarters located near the City of London, Europe's largest financial centre.

And The City developed because of its position within the capital of a unitary system. I realize that the way business is done in the UK is very different than in France, however you can't overlook the importance of London as capital of a unitary country in developing institutions there.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
And The City developed because of its position within the capital of a unitary system. I realize that the way business is done in the UK is very different than in France, however you can't overlook the importance of London as capital of a unitary country in developing institutions there.

No, that's not true either. The City of London developed in parallel with the City of Westminster some miles upriver. At the time both became progressively more important, they were separate places. And talking about a unitary system was fairly irrelevant at a time when church and crown were pre-eminent in the land. It's not like we had a modern Parliamentary democracy and someone thought "Ooh, I know we'll put the financial centre next to it", it has always been there.

The City of London became the financial heart of the "country" (when it wasn't even a country) 2,000 years ago and maintained it even when the capital was at Winchester.

London became incredibly important, full stop. It wasn't a case of government sucking in a business centre, but that the business centre and the governmental centre rose together as London became huge.

You're seeing it in the light of modernity and adding the two together. It wasn't like that. London didn't burst into existence in 1776, it has been growing since Roman times.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
London didn't burst into existence in 1776, it has been growing since Roman times.

I realize that

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
The City of London became the financial heart of the "country" (when it wasn't even a country) 2,000 years ago and maintained it even when the capital was at Winchester.

In that case, it appears the capital emerged from the financial center. Either way, the emergence of a centralized system remains the same.

Your FTSE location argument, however, doesn't really hold. If that was the case, all US companies would be based somehow in New York City, given that both the NYSE and NASDAQ are based there. That, however, is far from the truth, with most major US corporations being nominally based in Delaware for their state laws on incorporation and judicial expertise, while they have a true HQ in their home city and state (usually). The fact that the US' largest company is based in tiny Bentonville, Arkansas and not New York has to say something about that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
In that case, it appears the capital emerged from the financial center. Either way, the emergence of a centralized system remains the same.

Mmmm, not really. The problem with what you say isn't that the end result isn't true, it's that you imply there was design there. It wasn't so much a deliberate siting of one near the other, but that the location made sense for both elements. Before the industrial revolution, London was the only city of any size in a very low population. The location along the river made it perfect as a gateway to continental Europe from the earliest times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Your FTSE location argument, however, doesn't really hold. If that was the case, all US companies would be based somehow in New York City, given that both the NYSE and NASDAQ are based there.

Well. There are clearly differences between the US federal system and a UK unitary one, undoubtedly. But again, it's the implication that modern business is located in London because it's next to government that is wrong. Modern business is located in London because it's always been located in London, not because of some modern political-economic structure.

If anything, the rise of Information Technology has encouraged companies to relocate out of the City, where property has become so expensive.
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N1120A
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 30):
Well. There are clearly differences between the US federal system and a UK unitary one, undoubtedly. But again, it's the implication that modern business is located in London because it's next to government that is wrong. Modern business is located in London because it's always been located in London, not because of some modern political-economic structure.

If anything, the rise of Information Technology has encouraged companies to relocate out of the City, where property has become so expensive.

I still think you under estimate the importance of a capital city in financial terms under a unitary system. Look at places with unitary systems as compares to federal ones. Tehran didn't become the economic center of Iran until the capital was moved there and remains so because of the draw of the capital. Similar to London and Paris. While you allude to IT, the lack of technology in earlier times is what drove the capital-centric approach to business basing in unitary systems where it would be harder to communicate government regulation and the like to far flung locales. Sure you can say "it has always been that way" but to do so seems a bit over simplistic.
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Banco
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
I still think you under estimate the importance of a capital city in financial terms under a unitary system

No, you over-estimate the importance of a unitary system and under-estimate the importance of history.

If you want to talk about the importance of a financial centre being right next to the seat of power of an unconditional monarch, as it was 1,000 years ago and longer, then yes, you would have a point. But that ain't a "unitary" system as meant by modern theorists.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Sure you can say "it has always been that way" but to do so seems a bit over simplistic.

And you don't think it oversimplistic to look at modern Britain and ignore the fact that it's been that way for two millennia? The City of London is not important because of the modern British political system, it is important for historical reasons.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:44 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):
The City of London developed in parallel with the City of Westminster

You here should explain an important point which for foreigners is strange. The point that the "City of Westminister" includes Soho, Mayfair, Paddington, Bayswater, Knightsbridge, Chelsea, South Kensington, and a few additional quarters, which means that you can stay in "London" for quite some time without ever entering the "City of London" which only is somewhere between Charing Cross Road and Liverpool Street Station. And that therefore neither government, nor parliament nor BuckinghamPalace are in the "City of London" .
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What N1120 however referred to was "Greater London" or what once was the GLC area.
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I remember autumn 1972 when I with some surprise realized that I had domicile and school and offtimes in that "City of Westminster" which I had not heard about ever before !
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N1120A
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
If you want to talk about the importance of a financial centre being right next to the seat of power of an unconditional monarch, as it was 1,000 years ago and longer, then yes, you would have a point. But that ain't a "unitary" system as meant by modern theorists.

No, there is no unconditional monarch, however the modern government is still entirely based in London.

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
And you don't think it oversimplistic to look at modern Britain and ignore the fact that it's been that way for two millennia? The City of London is not important because of the modern British political system, it is important for historical reasons.

I actually think it is a little of both, just like Paris. Sure London has been a financial center for 2000 years, but it has also been the capital for more than 1000. In that case, the financial and government worlds have emerged together and the centralized nature of law making means that the synergies can't be overlooked.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:55 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
however the modern government is still entirely based in London

And? There would have had to be a deliberate decision made over the millennia to site either government or financial centre somewhere else. That just doesn't happen in an old country.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
In that case, the financial and government worlds have emerged together

Yes, well done. You've got there eventually.  Yeah sure

In fact, it was Westminster as a religious centre that was the main reason for government moving there, not finance. The financial centre wasn't known for its stock exchange and high tech systems in 100 AD.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
You here should explain an important point which for foreigners is strange.

I don't see why. One foreigner seems to think he knows everything.  Yeah sure
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N1120A
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
And? There would have had to be a deliberate decision made over the millennia to site either government or financial centre somewhere else. That just doesn't happen in an old country.

Really? Was Germany not an old country that decentralized? Is Iran/Persia not a very old country that moved its capital and financial center more than once?

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
I don't see why. One foreigner seems to think he knows everything.

Takes one to know one. Given that I have lived in London, I am well aware of the differences between Greater London and the Square Mile.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Really? Was Germany not an old country that decentralized?

No, it wasn't. It was a collection of independent states that unified in the 19th century. Try looking up "Bismarck". Clue: Not the battleship.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Takes one to know one. Given that I have lived in London, I am well aware of the differences between Greater London and the Square Mile.

Big bloody deal. I'm British, have lived here all my life, and know the country intimately. Don't come on here and try and lecture me about the history and make up of my own country, because you haven't got a clue.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
You here should explain an important point which for foreigners is strange.
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I don't see why

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Because it is of interest. When you talk about the City of Westminster you speak about a political entity which in a way is one of the largest cities in Europe but more or less unknown, possibly even to many Englishmen. AND when we "foreigners" speak about London we talk about Greater-London, and when I speak about New York I also mean Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island, and in a "wider sense" even about NJ-sided Greater New York (Newark etc) which happens to be the area covered by the Ports Authority of New York and New Jersey.
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Was Germany not an old country that decentralized? Is Iran/Persia not a very old country that moved its capital and financial center more than once?

in case of Germany, Austria and I think also Persia (?) such moves came after serious regime-changes.
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Quoting Banco (Reply 37):
No, it wasn't. It was a collection of independent states that unified in the 19th century. Try looking up "Bismarck".

which however became very centralized after 1871, under Prussian rule. Austria was a centralized republic between 1919 and 1938, and in 1955 became a Federal(ist) Republic (Treaty of Moscow) .
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back to the original topic. What I find interesting is that private French people you can meet reveal a kind of "centralist thinking" I have NOT met in countries like Italy or the U.K. . And when landing by plane in Bournemouth, and walking to the various desks, I can get information about Bournemouth and NOT about London, but when you cross from the BSL section to the MLH section of that airport you will not find anything about MLH but everything about Paris. To decentralize France is a most difficult thing, as it is psychology at work.
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halls120
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
You here should explain an important point which for foreigners is strange.

I don't see why. One foreigner seems to think he knows everything.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

Our resident omnologist is back at work, I see!
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 39):
omnologist

WHAT is an "omnologist" ?
 
rootsair
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RE: New French Premier?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
OK, so she's a socialist.

and what's bad about that ????
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:33 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 41):
OK, so she's a socialist.

and what's bad about that ????

Most US-Americans find socialists BAAAD !  wink 
 
rootsair
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RE: New French Premier?

Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
Most US-Americans find socialists BAAAD !

excatly and I want to know why they think socialists are bad! After all, its great to have social security as an example out of many
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
Beaucaire
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:24 am

She is probabely as much "socialist" like Jaques Lang,Elisabeth Guigou,Dominique Strauss Kahn,Francois Mitterand or any other members of the "Gauche Caviar",who basically use the term "Socialist" as pure marketing tool.
You'll find the socialists in the most expensive restaurants in Paris (and elswhere..) for busness-lunch every day.
Once you assist private gatherings of those politicians in their multi-million Euro properties in the south of France and discover their real concerns- you just want to vomit !!!
(I had the "privilege" to attend two of those receptions- they have nothing in common with the term "Socialistic..")
Many of those politicians have studied "Science Po" at university and some have spent degrees in the elite-school ENA.They could have chosen Socialist or "Gaullist" brand names-it really doesn't matter,since they spend most of their time anyhow to cement their networking and re-elections.
Matters of concern to the "normal public people" -or plebs- are of very remote interest to them.To be honest I have to admit that those observations are valid for the "right" as well....
I have taken the time to address letters and E-Mails to politicians regarding an environmental issue close to where I live - I have not received any serious reply or attention. (Even the "Green-Party" have not responded-but -once you are in the system,the system eats you all alive ...)
Political parties are primarily a tool to conserve power and privilege - the rest -like programs and real action- is just of minor interest!
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: New French Premier?

Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 43):
I want to know why they think socialists are bad! After all, its great to have social security as an example out of many

Many or even a majority of US-Americans think that A) social security is a waste of money, B) that rich people ought to be rewarded for being rich by proportionally LOWER taxes, C) that in a "free" country everybody is to look for himself. GWB in an interview I heard, explained that he is in favour of a "secure and just age care" and that is to have the money of your bank-account, and not to have the money with some organisation, so that everybody "has the money he deserves".
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"socialists" are regarded just as democratic communists, of whom many have such dangerous notions as to support the existence of trades-unions.
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no, I do not think that I am exaggerating. GWB won the presidential elections twice on such "platforms". Not to forget that even poor US-Americans support such positions as each one considers himself to become possibly rich one day.
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