Joni
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Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:54 am

It occurred to me (Ok, I also read Elton John's comments a few days ago) that religion could perhaps be subject to same kinds of restrictions as e.g. alcohol, meaning that subjecting minors to it would be banned.

If this was the case, then people could grow up and make up as adults their mind on how to relate to the world, and they could make this decision in a more objective way. Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people. These citizens would also be tolerant, open-minded and understand that they are responsible for what goes on in the world, not fairies and spirits.

Thoughts?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:00 am

Can't really restrict religion in the same way as alcohol, because despite being inherently harmful, it is an idea, not a substance. What we could ensure though is that religion is not taught in public schools - let parents and/or churches teach religion if they want to, don't make taxpayers cough up for it.

I watched the movie "Saved" on TV this afternoon (it was raining), and I was horrified ! I know it's a comedy, and bound to be full of charicature, but there might be some reality upon which it is based. What a scary concept !
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satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:07 am

 checkmark  100%.

Spirituality and religion certainly have their place, but I believe that it takes an adult mind to properly understand them and to make the right decision for how far you're willing to travel down the rabbit hole. Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far. You can teach a child the difference between right and wrong without having to bring in the potential vengeance of invisible creatures with bizarre tenets and the vague promises of some flowery and sugary afterlife.
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mbmbos
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning... (brainwashing)

The strongest predictor of religious affiliation is the religous affiliation of one's parents. So much for being blinded on the road to Damascus.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:14 am

Isn't that a part of what parenting is all about?.....teaching them about values, about right and wrong, etc, etc? As a responsible father who has two young daughters enrolled in a Lutheran elementary school, I have the right as a parent to see that they are raised in such a way that they will make a positive contribution to society and be law-abiding citizens. If that includes a spiritual foundation, so be it, and who are you to attempt to regulate it?

And while you're at it, why not regulate even more of a pressing issue with today's children.....obesity, and keeping the kids away from the candy dish and the fast food restaurants  sarcastic  ?!

Tom at MSY
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lowrider
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people.

So theists are unhappy and unbalanced? I beg to differ. Legal issues aside, even if such a law were passed, I would continue to teach my children in my home.

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I think you have a very myopic view of spirituality and religion. I don't know where you get it from. I would suggest some reading, but you would probably blow me off and ridicule my selections, so I won't waste your time or mine.
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halls120
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
Can't really restrict religion in the same way as alcohol, because despite being inherently harmful, it is an idea, not a substance. What we could ensure though is that religion is not taught in public schools - let parents and/or churches teach religion if they want to, don't make taxpayers cough up for it.

ÊÊ I'm not surprised that this discussion has been started, but it has shows just how tenuous our free society really is. Here was have an otherwise educated individual suggesting "Let's ban an idea until you are an adult," in a fashion that is not only antithetical to freedom in general, but shows just how some people would love for the state to have a more direct control in the raising of children.

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Spirituality and religion certainly have their place, but I believe that it takes an adult mind to properly understand them and to make the right decision for how far you're willing to travel down the rabbit hole.

So, SATX, how do you propose to enforce your stated desire to control thought?

[Edited 2006-11-19 23:38:09]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
mirrodie
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:49 am

Interesting thought, but the word "adult" would have to be defined.
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oly720man
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:50 am

I'm not religious.

For the most part, from my limited knowledge, religion is about tolerance, respect and, basically being a decent person. Teach that, whether at home or at school.

It is the divisions amongst (between?) us that bring out the worst in those with other agendas and see kids being brainwashed into hating different people. It's the messengers at fault, not the message...
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Joni
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:53 am

Children are already protected from e.g. pornography, which may be seen by some as antithetical to free speech.

The practical issue I see in this would be how to tell parents to not feed their bizarre ideas to their children. Schools could be instructed just by adjusting the curriculum to teach a reality-based outlook, but parents in homes would be more difficult - perhaps if this policy was adopted they should just be discouraged from teaching religious ideas to their children, with no sanctions threatened.

Overall this would be rather easy to implement, since even if children were to come across religious literature they'd be unlikely to take much interest. (this is not the case with pornography...)
 
cfalk
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
It occurred to me (Ok, I also read Elton John's comments a few days ago) that religion could perhaps be subject to same kinds of restrictions as e.g. alcohol, meaning that subjecting minors to it would be banned.

That would be a clear violation of the first amendment (in the US anyway.)

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
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halls120
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 9):
The practical issue I see in this would be how to tell parents to not feed their bizarre ideas to their children. Schools could be instructed just by adjusting the curriculum to teach a reality-based outlook, but parents in homes would be more difficult - perhaps if this policy was adopted they should just be discouraged from teaching religious ideas to their children, with no sanctions threatened.

You are going to tell parents who have faith they "shouldn't" teach religious ideas to their children?  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
So, SATX, how do you propose to enforce your stated desire to control thought?

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all. The sooner religion gets out of politics and stops trying to restrict what non-religious folks can do (such as match up with who they want and maintain control over their own bodies) the sooner I can go back to ignoring it. America is one of the most pro-Christian countries in the world right now, but most of the impact I've seen on American society has been something other that positive from my viewpoint. Tolerance and compassion seem to be under attack while while greed and arrogance seem to be on the increase. The sooner that trend reverses the better.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

Personally, I think it's a horrible idea.

My parents brought me to church until I was about 10 or 12, then they told me that I no longer had to go if I didn't want to, they didn't go after that. I kept on going, it was my choice, I'm not there every Sunday, but fairly regularly, my sister on the other hand, hit that age where my parents told her it was a choice, and she chose not to go anymore.

Part of the reason I think church is good is because it provides a social network with people and also produces some humility, teaches values, morals and responsibility.
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bezoar
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:23 am

God was banned from the classroom in the U.S. a while back. So, how are the schools doing?

Our classrooms are more full of apathetic and poorly educated students now than they ever were. We have powerless administrations that coddle these kids because we fear squashing their self-esteem. The kids get away with just about anything, and are disrespectful of all kinds of authority. The kids are more overwhelmed by peer power and the appearance of being 'cool'.

The schools are so ripe with drugs, violence, & fear that it seems to be the exception that any graduate somewhat prepared for the next phase of their lives.

Surely, I'm going overboard here. There are exceptions. But I would wager that a significant percentage of the these exceptions come from families, such as Tom in NO's, where some kinds of lasting values are instilled in the children from an early age.

I'm still perplexed at what values, and foundation for those values, the godless community has to offer.
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concentriq
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 14):
God was banned from the classroom in the U.S. a while back. So, how are the schools doing?

your arguments are pretty superficial. I fail to see the connection between "lack of god" in classroom and the instances you describe.
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halls120
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all.

Really? That isn't what you implied here:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far.

So how should we mandate that these concepts no longer be taught to children?

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
The sooner religion gets out of politics and stops trying to restrict what non-religious folks can do (such as match up with who they want and maintain control over their own bodies) the sooner I can go back to ignoring it.

Agree with you here, but banning the teaching of religion isn't the answer.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:41 am

I'm surprised no one has made the joke yet about knowing someone in the "biblical" sense.  

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2006-11-20 00:46:46]
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satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
Quoting SATX (Reply 12):

I don't really care if religion stays or goes, I just want it to stop screwing with non-religious like myself. That's all.

Really? That isn't what you implied here:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far.

So how should we mandate that these concepts no longer be taught to children?

If I were to seriously push for the banning of religion then I'd be no better than folks like Jerry Falwell or Pat Roberson. Thus, I'm willing to leave it alone so long as it leaves me alone. What really sucks is that it's not leaving me alone and seems to be getting more and more involved in my life and the lives of those I care about all the time.
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lowrider
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far

Well, that rules out teaching not only religion, but law, politics, history, economics, and philosophy to name a few.

Quoting SATX (Reply 18):
What really sucks is that it's not leaving me alone and seems to be getting more and more involved in my life and the lives of those I care about all the time.

A curious statement. Unless they come pounding on your door or want to drag you into a star chamber, how exactly are "religious people" getting more and more involved in your life? If you want most folks to go away, they will. If not, there are restraining orders for.
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bezoar
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 15):
your arguments are pretty superficial.

I won't argue with this comment.  Smile

It would be beyond my expertise to prove a cause and effect here, and I apologize for being unable to do so. Though any evidence may only be circumstantial, I think the chronology itself is rather compelling.

My point primarily is to question from where ANY substantive values in the schools, sans religion and faith, will now come. It seems to me that things are only getting worse, and I suspect it may be that the values being brought forth have no real substance behind them.

The author of the thread referred to educating children about religion and faith as being brain-washing. How is subjecting our kids throughout their childhood to an environment where God and faith are not discussed NOT be brainwashing itself? It staggers my mind to think this is not overwhelmingly obvious, except to those who want atheism to rule the minds of man.

In my mind atheists cannot even adequately defend their position. I can't understand how they justify their values. Why should I be willing to give them full power over my children and my grandchildren?

The answer is that I shouldn't be willing, and I won't.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 19):
A curious statement. Unless they come pounding on your door or want to drag you into a star chamber, how exactly are "religious people" getting more and more involved in your life? If you want most folks to go away, they will. If not, there are restraining orders for.

What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.


Quoting Lowrider (Reply 19):
Well, that rules out teaching not only religion, but law, politics, history, economics, and philosophy to name a few.

Care to explain how?
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aa757first
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
If this was the case, then people could grow up and make up as adults their mind on how to relate to the world, and they could make this decision in a more objective way.

Many things are passed down from parents at a young age.

Maybe politics should be protected from children. After all, a child born to liberal parents is far more likely to be liberal.

So absolutely no discussion on global warming, war, peace, abortion, gun control, death penalty, et al until the day the child turns 18 years old.

Oddly enough, I bet you would support making abortion available to a minor. So, in other words, you would allow a 16 year old to balance the pros and cons of a surgical procedure but you wouldn't allow them to say an Our Father every night.

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Somehow I have the feeling that without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse, with significant gains to society in the form of happier, more balanced people.

I can think of three adult atheists I know. Two have been prescribed psychiatric medications.

Your idea obviously has absolutely nothing to do with protecting children, as seen by this statement. Your idea is trying to ingrain atheism into children so they grow up as atheists. How delightfully tolerant of you.

And, finally, your little proposition violates human rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Teaching kids how to read, write, and multiply is one thing, but feeding them concepts that can easily divide us and give us even more reasons to hate and harm each other is probably going a bit too far. You can teach a child the difference between right and wrong without having to bring in the potential vengeance of invisible creatures with bizarre tenets and the vague promises of some flowery and sugary afterlife.

You can also teach right and wrong as you are teaching religion. For example, if/when I have children, they will be raised as Catholics. But, of course, they will be taught to always accept everyone's religious beliefs, including those of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and, yes, even atheists.

And, for many, religion and right and wrong are fused together. For example, if my kid asked me what I thought about the death penalty, I would say its wrong. When I asked why, a large part of it would be based on the Commandment "Thou shall not kill." If they asked me about abortion, they would get a similar answer.

I don't see anything wrong with this at all.

AAndrew
 
lowrider
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.

No, it is an honest question. You seem to think that religion is somehow intruding on your life despite you desire to the contrary. I am curious to hear how. As for myself and most of the people I know, if you don't want to hear about religion, we will let it go.

Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
Care to explain how?

Sure. All of the subjects I named have caused divisions in societies and, in most cases, have lead to wars. If you want to include subjects that have not lead to wars, you could include higher mathematics, astronomy, and biology as well.
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satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
Quoting SATX (Reply 21):
What a silly and erroneous statement masquerading as a legitimate argument.

No, it is an honest question. You seem to think that religion is somehow intruding on your life despite you desire to the contrary. I am curious to hear how. As for myself and most of the people I know, if you don't want to hear about religion, we will let it go.

Actually, your first comment implied that unless I was being physically threatened I must have nothing worthwhile to complain about.

For starters, I want non-religious folks to be able to match up with whoever they want and I want non-religious folks to be able to have control over their own bodies, including the ability to use contraception and to have abortions. I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols and I want religious folks to stop supporting politicians through back-door endorsements. There are many other issues, but I'll start with those.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
All of the subjects I named have caused divisions in societies and, in most cases, have lead to wars. If you want to include subjects that have not lead to wars, you could include higher mathematics, astronomy, and biology as well.

Sorry, but I still don't follow you. Can you provide any specific examples?
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Falcon84
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
It occurred to me (Ok, I also read Elton John's comments a few days ago) that religion could perhaps be subject to same kinds of restrictions as e.g. alcohol, meaning that subjecting minors to it would be banned.

Sorry, but that's got to be the most assinine idea I have read on here in a long time. I know a lot of poeple on here absolutely despise religion because of the few who pervert it, but dump just about anyone of faith into that same vile category, but you want to start a worldwide protest of major proportions? That'll do it.

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
If this was the case, then people could grow up and make up as adults their mind on how to relate to the world,

Occurs to me, Joni, that most people do that. Even when they grow up with a certain faith, most of us are intelligent enough, and can think enough for ourselves to find out what we like and dislike about our faith, and either switch to one more attune to our beliefs, or try to change certain points of faith or doctrine from within.

Sorry, but the anti-faith crap on here has reached a new low with this post.
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Halcyon
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
Sorry, but the anti-faith crap on here has reached a new low with this post.

I could not put enough check marks to show how much I agree with that statement.

Letting the government raise the children basically. Disgusting beyond belief. The people who support this should be ashamed.
 
lowrider
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
For starters, I want non-religious folks to be able to match up with whoever they want and I want non-religious folks to be able to have control over their own bodies

Is someone preventing you from doing so now?

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
including the ability to use contraception and to have abortions.

As far as I know, both of these are legal in Texas. Again, has someone prevented you from availaing yourself of either?

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols

What public place or symbol do you have in mind? Keeping in mind, of course, that some religious symbols have secular uses as well.

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want religious folks to stop supporting politicians through back-door endorsements.

Gladly, when anti-religious folks stop supporting poiliticians who through back door endorsement.

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
Sorry, but I still don't follow you. Can you provide any specific examples?

Religion: how many examples to you need

Politics: Again, you want to talk about divisions and wars, how any examples would you like

History: Whose story is history exactly? Look at the Middle East. Part of the fight is who actually has rights to the the piece of real estate that is Israel. Depending on which history you read and believe.

Economics: How many conflicts have been started over a scarce resource? How many times have we heard about the conflict between the "haves" and the "have nots"

Mathematic and astronomy: trigonomotry, the heloicentric solar system, and the big bang theory have all been sources of heated debate, division, and dispute between people.

Biology: Evolution, eugenics, and genetics to name a few. How much conflict have these caused?

In short, if you want to withhold religion from children because it can cause divisions and conflict, then there are many other subjects you will have to with hold as well.
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MDorBust
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols

The city is going to look pretty bleak after we chop down all the oak trees.
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halls120
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 25):
Sorry, but the anti-faith crap on here has reached a new low with this post.

Falcon, while I tend to agree with you, part of the reason faith is so consistently attacked is that the extremists of faith have made it easy to do so. Whether it is Islamic extremists killing people in the name of a religion of peace, or Christian extremists killing abortion doctors and trying to forcibly instill their value system on the entire country, are you really surprised?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:13 pm

The teaching of religion starts for most children when they are 4-5 years old, usually from their parents, then if they parents are active in a faith, then in a religious school or a faith group run afterschool or weekly holyday School (ie: Sunday School for most Christians). That tends to set the faith of most believers then for the rest of their life, even if inactive. Many people, even myself, still like the idea of a child learning about faith beliefs, and the parents setting an example as to day to day ethical behavior
In many faiths, a person usually makes their first personal commitment to a faith at age 13-15, not when really an adult, but often understood to be 'the age of reason'. In some faiths, that commitment should be made later, at age 17-18, when one had a better ability to determine their faith or not having traditional faith, but hopefully living live with reason and ethics as to their world and fellow person.
 
satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:03 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
For starters, I want non-religious folks to be able to match up with whoever they want and I want non-religious folks to be able to have control over their own bodies

Is someone preventing you from doing so now?

Texas (where I live) has banned gay sex (overturned once, might stick next time) gay marriage and gay civil unions. It's true that I don't happen to be gay myself, but I still support the rights of adults to match up with whoever they want however they want.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
including the ability to use contraception and to have abortions. As far as I know, both of these are legal in Texas. Again, has someone prevented you from availaing yourself of either?

It's also legal for the pharmacist to refuse to provide the pill (plan A or B) on religious grounds. Plan B took years to be approved even though there was no obvious medical reason to keep it off the market and when it finally did come out it was limited in scope to only be available to those over the age of 18, again without obvious medical reason to back up the restriction. Abortion rights are probably under more pressure now than at any time since R.v.W. thanks largely to religious crusades. Even US humanitarian aid to developing countries is often forbidden for use in providing free or reduced price contraceptives of any type thanks largely to religious groups.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols What public place or symbol do you have in mind? Keeping in mind, of course, that some religious symbols have secular uses as well.

I'd like to have it removed from money, party because I interact with it more than any other religious symbol and partly because I think it's hypocritical for religious folks to seemingly endorse something so easily abused with religious references.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want religious folks to stop supporting politicians through back-door endorsements. Gladly, when anti-religious folks stop supporting poiliticians who through back door endorsement.

The difference is that non-religious folks who endorse a given politician don't seem to get the same tax breaks as those who do it from the altar. If all religious groups that wish to enter politics are willing to give up their preferential tax status and call themselves a PAC then I'm cool with it.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
In short, if you want to withhold religion from children because it can cause divisions and conflict, then there are many other subjects you will have to with hold as well.

I think I see where you're going with this. However, merely teaching a child about religion and indoctrinating him into religion are two very different processes. It's the indoctrination part that I'm against.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 28):
Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
I want public places and property to be free of religious symbols

The city is going to look pretty bleak after we chop down all the oak trees.

Oh please. I'm obviously talking about actual symbols, especially those that are overtly religious, and not about the original non-religious inspirations of such symbols. If we took your bizarre line of reasoning to its ultimate conclusion then we'd have to ban all humans merely because they were supposedly created in God's image. Let's try to keep it a little more reasonable, shall we?
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lowrider
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
.

I see your point on the sex and money issues, and honestly, I don't have any easy answer except that if enough like minded people lobby for change, the government should relent.
As to the the others, you have to allow some room for people who disagree with you if you want room to disagree with them. If a pharmacist is morally opposed to a drug, then another one down the street will be happy for the business. Churches do, and will continue to speak up on political issues. It is within thier right to do so because the leadership of the country has an impact on the laws of the country. All laws are, ultimately, about morals. If churches can't speak on issues that affect morality, then they might as well close the doors. You might think that fine, but many do not.

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
However, merely teaching a child about religion and indoctrinating him into religion are two very different processes. It's the indoctrination part that I'm against.

Can you define the line where it goes from one to the other? I don't know of anyone that was forced to become a Christian. Christianity involves the choice to follow Christ. Free will is involved. Is indoctrination even possible given such a framework?
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aa757first
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):

It's also legal for the pharmacist to refuse to provide the pill (plan A or B) on religious grounds.

Of course it is, since everyone has the freedom to practice their religion.

I'm assuming that you are against the death penalty. Say, for example, you are a nurse anesthetist employed as a float staffer for the State of Texas. As part of your agreement, you will float to any medical facility owned by the state government. One day, you get a call saying you are being assigned to a prison to perform an execution. Like abortion, the death penalty is legal. Should you be legally required to perform the execution?

AAndrew
 
Joni
Topic Author
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:11 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):
Many things are passed down from parents at a young age.

Maybe politics should be protected from children. After all, a child born to liberal parents is far more likely to be liberal.

So absolutely no discussion on global warming, war, peace, abortion, gun control, death penalty, et al until the day the child turns 18 years old.

I fail to see how these resemble religion. Global warming, wars and abortion are all important real-life issues that can be approached using reason. Religion entails a permanent transition to fantasy at the expense of reality.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):
And, finally, your little proposition violates human rights.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

I disagree here. My proposition doesn't violate anyone's freedom to practice religion, provided they are adults. What it does provide is freedom _from_ religion to children. Again, there are many things we restrict from chilren - such as alcohol and pornography, which are allowed to adults when they choose to indulge in them. However both can ba unhealthy for children.

Some here have said that religions are needed to make people behave by threatening them with Hell. To this it must be said, that not many Christians even believe in Hell anymore, and normal human empathy can be an equally good, if not better, source of morals.
 
Halcyon
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
Some here have said that religions are needed to make people behave by threatening them with Hell. To this it must be said, that not many Christians even believe in Hell anymore, and normal human empathy can be an equally good, if not better, source of morals.

Speaking of Hell, where the hell do you get some of this stuff from? Do you get your info from the sci-fi channel? You mean my religion "makes" me behave? By threatening me? You're so far off you're crapping on the towel rack. First: I do believe in hell, as does everyone at my church, and all the other Christians I talk to. Second, as far as I know, I act the way I do because I LOVE my God for giving me what he has. Third, you want to be some kind of Nazi mind control freak. You want to stop kids from being introduced to any ideas that you personally do not believe. You ridicule us for saying that religion makes people good while you say that it makes people bad. The truth if this all is that the person has free will and may turn out to be a bad apple either way.

So cut through the crap and boil it down...you want:
thought control,
sterilization of things you deem bad.

The arrogance in this is sickening.

Quit the BS and show us the facts. I'd like you to show me that:
1-Religion MAKES people bad
2-Lack of religion is a GOOD thing

And you can't do that, so keep this  redflag  to yourself.

I've no doubt that you'd be a fine chap in person, but this is nonsense.

Hope I did not offend you.

Lucas
 
MDorBust
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:34 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Texas (where I live) has banned gay sex (overturned once, might stick next time)

Texas might also in the future create laws that mandate Human/ Alpha Centaurian marriages take place only on the third Monday of months beginning in "F", but only under the new moon.

Can we the doom and gloom based on what might be law someday?

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
It's also legal for the pharmacist to refuse to provide the pill (plan A or B) on religious grounds.

And you have the right to go down the street to the next pharmacy.

My fiance has been on the pill since puberty and has never had a problem filling her prescriptions.

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Even US humanitarian aid to developing countries is often forbidden for use in providing free or reduced price contraceptives of any type thanks largely to religious groups.

Even without religious motives that is a great idea.

A basic and fundamental attitude shift needs to happen in these countries. Condoms won't solve the problem. Not producing babies like rabbits will.

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Oh please. I'm obviously talking about actual symbols..

And so am I.

Or did you mean only symbols of Christianity?

Better cut down all the pine trees while I'm thinking about it.

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
If we took your bizarre line of reasoning to its ultimate conclusion then we'd have to ban all humans merely because they were supposedly created in God's image.

Now that I think more deeply on it, there are religions that consider the human form to be sacred.

Hmm... Now that I really think about it, you had better get after all the snakes too.. and monkeys. Cattle are also on the list.

Better get on that genocide, can't have any religious symbols can we...

You know, killing off all the humans might just solve the problem after all...

Quoting SATX (Reply 31):
Let's try to keep it a little more reasonable, shall we?

That's mighty mature of you to rescend you previous suggestion. Yes, let's be reasonable. Crosses, oak trees, stars of david, crescent moons, pentagrams... these things are just things. They've never done anything to anyone.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Joni
Topic Author
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 35):
Speaking of Hell, where the hell do you get some of this stuff from?

For example, here is an example

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...on_aviation/read.main/1421610/1/#8

I was a bit surprised to read this, mind you, since most Christians don't believe in hell - see Table 5 here

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bishop_19_3.html

Here's some interesting data as well:
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_516.html

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 35):
First: I do believe in hell



Quoting Halcyon (Reply 35):
Second, as far as I know, I act the way I do because I LOVE my God for giving me what he has

Don't you feel that loving a god that throws people in Hell is odd? Or that a god throws his loved ones into Hell?

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 35):
Quit the BS and show us the facts. I'd like you to show me that:
1-Religion MAKES people bad
2-Lack of religion is a GOOD thing

1- We've already mentioned here the 9/11 attackers and President Bush, but we could also add the witch-hunt and Inquisition in the Middle Ages, oppression of women and minorities by the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the Crusades and the fact that Europeans slaughtered each other in prodigious numbers during the Reformation for what amounts to minor disagreements over theology. Many religions also require human sacrifice - it's reported that the Aztecs could sacrifice even thousands of people on great days. Judaism requires ritual circumcision for boys. There is also an element of symbolic human sacrifice in Christianity in the form of the Crucifiction and Eucharist (which the Vatican considers to be the "Queen of the Sacraments")

2- Don't you agree that a lack of massive human sacrifice, 9/11 attacks and Crusades sounds good?
 
Halcyon
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):

For example, here is an example

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...on_aviation/read.main/1421610/1/#8

I was a bit surprised to read this, mind you, since most Christians don't believe in hell - see Table 5 here

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bishop_19_3.html

Here's some interesting data as well:
http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_516.html

If you're using A.net for info on religion.  Embarrassment

As

All from which I can conclude one thing: go into the real world and come back again.

Also, those websites seem biased and rather obscure, but, at least for the first (and though I did not other to compare too closely, probably the second), it still says most Christians believe in Hell.

Believe in "Hell"-49.6
/
God exists-62.8
=78.9%.

I don't know how you construe 80% as the minority. You've got quite a bit of "faith."  shy 

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):

Don't you feel that loving a god that throws people in Hell is odd? Or that a god throws his loved ones into Hell?

No, if I disobeyed my boss I'd be fired. If I disobeyed my boss repeatedly and throughout my entire life...do you want me to feel bitter just because you do?


Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
1- We've already mentioned here the 9/11 attackers and President Bush, but we could also add the witch-hunt and Inquisition in the Middle Ages, oppression of women and minorities by the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, not to mention the Crusades and the fact that Europeans slaughtered each other in prodigious numbers during the Reformation for what amounts to minor disagreements over theology. Many religions also require human sacrifice - it's reported that the Aztecs could sacrifice even thousands of people on great days. Judaism requires ritual circumcision for boys. There is also an element of symbolic human sacrifice in Christianity in the form of the Crucifiction and Eucharist (which the Vatican considers to be the "Queen of the Sacraments")

Well, I dunno Joni...I don't live in the Middle Ages and I'm not a crazy freak from some hole in Afghanistan. Besides that you've really included one person, Bush, and supposition and things that offend you simply because they're symbolic. (But I'm not Catholic.) Do you watch only Rated G movies so that you might not see offending (!) symbols?

So, some new parameters:
you have the same task, but:
-no extremist Muslim stuff, the civilized world (minus some members of this forum) think that that whole load is messed up
-no events from my great great great great great great.....grea great great great grandfathers time
-no suppositions based on your FEELINGS. I asked for facts.

Basically the same as before. Well, what I had in mind in the first place, just a lot easier to understand.  Smile

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
2- Don't you agree that a lack of massive human sacrifice, 9/11 attacks and Crusades sounds good?

A: I am a CHRISTIAN and
B: Do not reside in the times of the Crusades

Not only this, but the things you mentioned my religion DOES NOT support.

But then again, I'm sure that even you realized that your argument was weak there.

Still, disallowing religion because of the crusades is like disallowing sailing because people will get scurvy.  Big grin


Try again!

Lucas  Smile
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 37):
2- Don't you agree that a lack of massive human sacrifice, 9/11 attacks and Crusades sounds good?

That sounds like yesterday.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):

I fail to see how these resemble religion. Global warming, wars and abortion are all important real-life issues that can be approached using reason. Religion entails a permanent transition to fantasy at the expense of reality.

Because they are both beliefs and opinions that are often passed down from parent to child.

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
I disagree here. My proposition doesn't violate anyone's freedom to practice religion, provided they are adults. What



Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

everyone (pronoun): every person.
person (noun): a human being, whether man, woman or child.

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
What it does provide is freedom _from_ religion to children.

Already exists. Maybe the Finnish government makes children attend church, but good old Uncle Sam doesn't.

You have just proved yourself the most intolerant person on A.net, IMO. I don't think I've ever seen anyone propose an idea that would serve to totally eliminate a belief system they opposed.

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SlamClick
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:36 am

I might agree but only if Atheism is recognized to be the religion that it is.
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bezoar
Posts: 746
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
I might agree but only if Atheism is recognized to be the religion that it is.

 bigthumbsup 
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JGPH1A
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
I might agree but only if Atheism is recognized to be the religion that it is.

Atheism is not a religion. It is a belief - not the same thing at all. A religion is organised, has an established credo, and proselytises (sp?) for new believers. Atheism does none of those things.
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MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 43):
A religion is organised, has an established credo, and proselytises (sp?) for new believers. Atheism does none of those things.

I prefer this definition instead.

"The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices"

This one also does fine.

"A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects"

I don't remember proselytizing anyone, yet am a member of a religion. A common characteristic, but not a defining one.

Oh, not organized either.
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Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 43):
A religion is organised,

Organized in what way?
 
satx
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
Condoms won't solve the problem. Not producing babies like rabbits will.

Oh really?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 36):
My fiance has been on the pill since puberty and has never had a problem filling her prescriptions.

Why is it okay for your fiance to have access to the pill but it's wrong to for those in developing countries?

I'd respond to the rest of your post, but you really don't seem to be taking this issue seriously.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 46):
Why is it okay for your fiance to have access to the pill but it's wrong to for those in developing countries?

Because my fiance uses it to control PCOS and not to prevent babies.

Quoting SATX (Reply 46):
but you really don't seem to be taking this issue seriously.

Quite seriously actually.

There's a disconnect though.

When I say religion, I think of all religions

When you say religion, I believe you are only thinking of Christianity and Islam.

And yes, not breeding like rabbits will prevent overpopulation.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 43):
It is a belief - not the same thing at all. A religion is organised, has an established credo, and proselytises (sp?) for new believers. Atheism does none of those things.

Not as it is practiced in this country.

In this country a person's "atheism" can be the victim of offense. That makes it an entity, not a non-entity.

Saying that it is not a religion just because it doesn't have a street address or a phone number is akin to the damnable assertion that protects Islamic terrorism all over the world - they are not Islam, they are not Saudi Arabia, they are not Iran, they are not Syria, Libya and so on.

Well they damn sure are something!

Same with atheists. They file lawsuits and discrimination complaints on the basis of their atheism.

It is not science. Science has rules that drive the axiom that you "cannot prove a negative." This means that one cannot prove the non-existence of God. This means that an assertion of atheist viewpoints is NOT a scientific act but exactly the opposite. It is a profession of faith, and when they file suit against another religion they are claiming equal weight.

Both the religion and the atheist are claiming equal weight, merit, footing in society and under the law.

The day people stop filing lawsuits and formal complaints asserting that their atheism has been offended I will agree that it is not a religion.

Hell, most Methodists don't go to church either.

And yes they do preach their beliefs and attempt to spread their religion. A few samples here that are arguments for the existence of "no-God" the deity of the atheists. Each of these is an attempt to support a belief on the part of the poster as being fact, forgetting again that you can't prove a negative.


Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
without childhood conditioning (brainwashing), the number of theists would simply collapse



Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
how far you're willing to travel down the rabbit hole



Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
concepts that can easily divide us



Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
bizarre tenets and the vague promises of some flowery and sugary afterlife

If I wanted to search the archives I could post hundreds and hundreds of such statements. Also the very specific phrase: "There is no invisible man in the sky." is repeated far too often to be a coincidence. I'd bet, but I cannot prove, that someone is spending money convincing westerners that there is no God.

Pesonally I don't believe in God. I use uppercase for that word because the Chicago Manual of Style just beyond my left hand tells me I should and also out of respect for other peoples' beliefs. I don't believe in God but I don't care one way or another because I live my life according to my principles and guess I'll just take what consequences there be when I die.

Self-professed atheists on the other hand are COMPELLED by their faith to inform me that there is no God.

If atheism is not a religion then it is NOTHING at all and cannot be offended. Thus no one could ever make a formal complaint that their atheism has been attacked. If it is actionable in court it is an entity, it is a "person" under the law and must be recognized as such.

Before the taxpayers of San Diego are compelled to spend a million bucks tearing down a cross because it offends one man's "nothing" called atheism.

Atheism has dogma. Just read this and the other thread to see what it is.
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satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: Should Religion Be "Adult Content"?

Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 48):

You seem to be confusing atheism with agnosticism. Atheists are just as convinced there is no God as Christians are convinced there is one. Although there is no atheist dogma that says a Christian is going to hell for believing in God, there is still a desire to even the playing field and to correct what is seen as an obvious fallacy.
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