Palladium
Topic Author
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God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:25 am

Perhaps these are the two greatest debates of all time (God vs Science)
I don't need to explain what is scientific believe and God's believe in here, I assume you all guys understand.... but I want to hear people's opinion in here.

1. Do you believe more in scientific way or in God's way?
2. Please state your main reason.....

(and let's see which one is the most...... )

My answer:

1. God's way
2. Some evidence miracle is happening (the blind can see, etc).
If there is evil, there must be God.
There has to be an Intelligent Designer of this universe. God created this
universe. (there has to be a creator to something)
The Bibble speaks itself.

Score:
people believe in God : 1
people believe in sciense: 0

(please update the score, each time you answer so we know how many people here actually believe in what)
 
zanl188
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
1. Do you believe more in scientific way or in God's way?
2. Please state your main reason.....

1. I don't weigh one over the other. In the final analysis they are one in the same.
2. Any technology (Science) sufficiently advanced appears as magic (God) to mans puny brain. Variations in the sample due primarily to the subjects level of education.

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
Score:

Nil change
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aloges
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:38 am

Score:
people believe in God : 1
people believe in science: 1

BUT: I think believing is for religious things, knowing is for all things science. Science aims to explain how things work, not to explain why they developed as they did. Creationism is nonsense, but Darwin's theory doesn't really answer that eternal question of "Why are we here?"

I'm quite fine with simply "being here" and don't ask myself much why I am, so religion isn't a big issue for me. I believe there is a sort of deity, but I highly doubt it's the engineer-architect-emperor kind of multi-tasking God described in the Bible.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
1. Do you believe more in scientific way or in God's way?

I fully believe in science, I am an atheist.

The reason ? well, I have grown up in a non-religious family (which no doubt contributes) but also, there are too many questions surrounding religion.

Why did God let the Holocaust happen ?
Why doesn't God heal the wounded now ?
Why hasn't God come down to earth ?
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).
If he's so great, why do people believe in different gods and religions ?
Why is it that if you don't believe in God, you're already condemned to 'hell'.
If we are all God's children, Why does God let his children run around the earth killing each other ?
Why does God let pedophiles exist ?

It sound silly to me, you commit a sin, and all you have to do it pray to god for forgiveness or go to the priest and confess all, not exactly punishment for doing something as bad a coming a sin.
If we are all born sinners, what's the point of continuously asking for god to forgive us, when he doesn't give a sign that he accepts your forgiveness ?
The list goes on and on....

For me, there are too many questions and not enough answers for religion, and Science has an explanation that to me, sounds half reasonable in terms of evolution and how the earth came about.

Wrightborthers

Score:
people believe in God : 1
people believe in science: 2
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
JGPH1A
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).

Erm, that's a silly one. They didn't have modern names, the names have been anglicized from the French/Italian/Latin/Greek corruptions of the original Hebrew names. Matthew was "Mathias", James was "Yacob" or "Yacov", etc etc.
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jamesbuk
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:58 am

people believe in God : 1
people believe in science: 3

If god exists, Where is he, Where is heaven, If gods all forgiving then why can you be condemned to hell.

rgds --James--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
iamcanadian
Posts: 704
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why did God let the Holocaust happen ?

Because God created his children on earth with the ability to choose. He gave us free will.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why doesn't God heal the wounded now ?

What makes you think he doesn't? You don't think that God had ANY part in medically and scientifically unexplainable instances of miraculous recoveries from cancer, or ANY disease for that matter?

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why hasn't God come down to earth ?

He did, in the form of Jesus. When Jesus ascended into Heaven, he said that the next time he came back would essentially be what we know as "judgement day".

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).

Like JPGH1A mentioned, they were translated from the original Greek/Hebrew texts, they weren't the "actual" names of the people mentioned.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
If he's so great, why do people believe in different gods and religions ?

Like I said, God gave us the ability to make our own decisions. The basis of Christianity is FAITH. You need to WANT to believe in him. He's not going to force himself on anybody, so people are able to choose in what they believe, in the same way you can choose what show to watch on TV; you have the options, it's up to you which one you pick.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why is it that if you don't believe in God, you're already condemned to 'hell'.

Because man is born with a sinful nature, and with sin, it is impossible to get to heaven. With the Holy Spirit in your life, you accept God's gift of forgiveness and grace, and by following Jesus' ways, we too can join him in heaven.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
If we are all God's children, Why does God let his children run around the earth killing each other ?

Like I mentioned before, God created his earth and his children with free will.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why does God let pedophiles exist ?

See above.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
It sound silly to me, you commit a sin, and all you have to do it pray to god for forgiveness or go to the priest and confess all, not exactly punishment for doing something as bad a coming a sin.

The punishment for sin, is ultimately, death (ie. eternal Hell). But this punishment comes on the day of judgement. We are saved from this punishment by having a life free of sin. Obviously, it is human nature to sin, so we cannot avoid this punishment without God's forgiveness.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
If we are all born sinners, what's the point of continuously asking for god to forgive us, when he doesn't give a sign that he accepts your forgiveness ?

God's "sign" that he "accepts" forgiveness is through the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is through his sacrifice that Jesus took the punishment for ALL of man. There is no need for a little message that pops up in your email the next morning saying "Congratulations, God has granted you forgiveness". God's forgiveness is a PROMISE.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I hope I answered most of the questions you had.

Regards,

Mike
Shut up and calculate.
 
bezoar
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:05 am

In my opinion the very question forces one to choose between the two, and I find that to be rather narrow-minded. It is not necessarily an 'either-or' question.

I believe God created a world that behaves in a way that much of it can be known. I believe He who gave us life also gave us our senses to discover it and a mind by which we can understand and do things that we otherwise could not. Science is simply a tool we can use, and a very great one at that.

However, we must not confuse the creator with the creation. We cannot expect to see God by looking through a telescope or a microscope, or in a chemical reaction, or in a mathematical equation. We can, though, look and see His glorious creation.

Iamcanadian is quite right in saying we are given the gift of free will. It is through our use and abuse of that gift that we can do both great things and horrible things.

Some are quick to say "religion is the root of all evil" and the "cause of more death throughout the history of mankind than anything else." However, is it not through science & technology that we have created weapons of mass destruction? Has it not led to the fouling of our atmosphere and water? Has it not enabled a greater separation between the poor and the rich?

One may certainly lay blame for our horrors on ourselves. If we blame God, we are blaming Him for giving us life, a wonderful mind, and free will.

Of course, if you don't believe in God, then you must give man both credit and blame for what man does.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
RichardPrice
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
If there is evil, there must be God.

God is all Powerful.
God is all Good.
Evil exists.

Logically you can only have two out of three of those.
 
iamcanadian
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 7):
In my opinion the very question forces one to choose between the two, and I find that to be rather narrow-minded. It is not necessarily an 'either-or' question.

 checkmark 

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 7):
I believe He who gave us life also gave us our senses to discover it and a mind by which we can understand and do things that we otherwise could not. Science is simply a tool we can use, and a very great one at that.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 
There are so many people out there that attempt to use scientific evidence to discredit and/or disprove God, but only end up finding overwhelming PROOF of God's existence and wonderous creation. Essentially, everything was put on this earth into our (humans) care and for our enjoyment. It is unfortunate how often we abuse this.
Shut up and calculate.
 
Springbok747
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
1. Do you believe more in scientific way or in God's way?
2. Please state your main reason.....

1. Science
2. Reason:

Let's assume, for a moment, that there is a God. We may not know the nature of God, or which religion comes closest to the truth, but we can be sure of one thing:

God has no love for this Earth.

Look at all the cruelty and misery in the world, which God does nothing to stop. Right now, as you are reading this, there are children in various places around the world being raped and tortured.

If God exists, then why is he allowing these things to happen? Look at all the conflicts in the world, Israel-Palestine, Sudan, Iraq, etc etc.

There are some religions which claim that "God's love is a different kind of love", which is supposed to explain and justify what appears to be God's divine indifference. This is total bullshit. If I claim that I love my neighbor, and then set his house on fire and shoot him in the head, anyone can see that my "love" is not love at all.

So you have no loving God watching over you, making sure you get what you need. You don't get what you need in life, you don't get what you want, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you get.

Sorry for the rant...
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ctbarnes
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:37 am

Why does it always have to be either God OR science?

Just because one believes in God does not necessarily mean one is fundimentalist or does it have follow that all scientists are fundimental empiracists. It might be nice, just once, to talk about God and science without being tied to the same tired stereotypes that amount to little more than a club with which to bash those who disagree with us.

As for me, I rely on the Bible to answer the question why we were created. I'm content to leave the how question to science.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
bezoar
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Logically you can only have two out of three of those.

The conclusion becomes invalid if one assumes that free will indeed exists. Do we have the ability to choose between good and evil? If God does not allow us such choices, then we have no free will.

You can't eliminate the possibility of a good and all-powerful God based on your 'logic,' unless you believe that free will was not a good move on God's part. That may be worthy of debate.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:07 am

As some people have stated, the two are not exclusive of each other. I think that science should give us an appreciation of God's power in his/her creation of the universe and everything in it. I believe in God and I believe in science too.

Creation didn't happen in 6 days, it happened over a period of 4 point something billion years. The story of creation is just that...a story, meant to explain things to people at a time when they thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
mbmbos
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 11):
Why does it always have to be either God OR science?

Amen to that! Why does we always have to be given two extreme choices? Have you been watching too much Fox News? It's a bogus setup designed to manipulate you into one of two extreme camps.

Science is one of the greatest tools that mankind has ever developed. But it has its limitations, as all tools do.

Religion may have been a great tool for those who lived thousands of years ago. And it is still useful as a metaphor, or mythology, to help us come to terms with our temporal existence.

Both have their place in our world.
 
SlamClick
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
Look at all the cruelty and misery in the world, which God does nothing to stop.

Oh yeah! And science is going to stop it?
Right!
The same science that gave us cattle prods, tasers, and atomic bombs?

Religion has no answers.
Science has no "morals" to restrain mankind.

What is earthman to do?
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satx
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:25 am

True science is based on the scientific method, which I have faith in only because it's been shown to work again and again. In most cases, when a given scientific theory is proven wrong, it's either because the scientific method either wasn't followed properly or too much was assumed from too little data.

Now, what is religion based on? What difference does it make if God exists or not and why should God's existence or nonexistence have any bearing whatsoever on how we live our lives? That's what I don't understand.
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Springbok747
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Oh yeah! And science is going to stop it?
Right!

No I never said science is gonna stop that.

Quote:
The same science that gave us cattle prods, tasers, and atomic bombs?

All of these were invented for a reason, and have their uses. This has nothing to do with religion. I never said science will solve everything, but it is doing a hell of a lot more than what God is right now.
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ctbarnes
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
What is earthman to do?

Hope for a better world. Make that better world happen. Perhaps that's something all of us can agree on.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
vikkyvik
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Science aims to explain how things work, not to explain why they developed as they did.

I think I know what you mean to say, but the way you phrased it is not accurate. To say that science doesn't aim to explain why is absolutely incorrect. There are many scientists and studies that aim to do precisely that. Now, they don't aim to simply explain "why are we here?" because that's far too complicated a question. But science is indeed interested in how and why things develop as they do.

Anyway, looks to me like people stopped keeping score, but add me to the Science team. As for why......well, I'm really just too lazy to type out a whole argument. Besides, I don't feel like I actually need to argue my point of view to anyone. If religion works for you, then awesome.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
TACAA320
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:43 am

"The scientist's condition as a sentinel in the modern world, as onernwho is the first to glimpse the enormous complexity together with thernmarvellous harmony of reality, makes him a privileged witness of thernplausibility of religion, a man capable of showing how the admission ofrntranscendence, far from harming the autonomy and the ends of research,rnrather stimulates it to continually surpass itself in an experience ofrnself-transcendence which reveals the human mystery".
- Pope John Paul II, 7/17/85.

Faith can never conflict with reason

The 'Galileo case' teaches us that different branches of knowledge call for different methods, each of which brings out various aspects of reality
In 1979 Pope John Paul II expressed the wish that the Pontifical Academy of Sciences would conduct an indepthrnstudy of the celebrated and controversial "Galileo case". A Commissionrnof scholars for this purpose was established in 1981 and on Saturdayrnmorning, 31 October they presented their conclusions to the Pope. Arnsummary of these conclusions was given by Cardinal Paul Poupard Receiving them in the Sala Regiarnof the Apostolic Palace, the Holy Father took the occasion to thank thernmembers of the Commission for their work and to speak to the PontificalrnAcademy of Sciences on the distinct but complementary roles that faithrnand science fulfill in human life. Also present were members of thernDiplomatic Corps accredited to the Holy See and highranking officials of the Roman Curia.
The following English translation of the Holy Father's address, which was given in French, appeared in L'Osservatore Romano N. 44 (1264) - 4 November 1992

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/sci-9211.html

"
159rnFaith and science : "Though faith is above reason, there can never bernany real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God whornreveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason onrnthe human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradictrntruth." (Dei Filiusrn4: DS 3017) "Consequently, methodical research in all branches ofrnknowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner andrndoes not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith,rnbecause the things of the world and the things of faith derive from thernsame God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets ofrnnature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite ofrnhimself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." (GS 36 ' 1)


2293rnBasic scientific research, as well as applied research, is arnsignificant expression of man's dominion over creation. Science andrntechnology are precious resources when placed at the service of man andrnpromote his integral development for the benefit of all. By themselvesrnhowever they cannot disclose the meaning of existence and of humanrnprogress. Science and technology are ordered to man, from whom theyrntake their origin and development; hence they find in the person and inrnhis moral values both evidence of their purpose and awareness of theirrnlimits.
"
From the Catholic Catechism

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/cat-sci.html
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
trvyyz
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:36 am

I believe in God.
I believe in Science.

Just because science cannot explain God doesnot mean God doesn't exist.
Science itself is evolving continuously and there are many areas that still need to explained by science rather than by just giving statistics or a coincidence. A long way before actually investigating about God.

[Edited 2006-11-20 02:39:43]
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
1. Do you believe more in scientific way or in God's way?

It depends on what the question is, i certainly do not dispute any scientific explanation, be it the Big bang, the expanding universe or any other great scientific questions. Science explains HOW and WHEN things exist and happen, it doesn't explain WHY. If we were to ask the greatest question of all time, why do we and the universe exist? Science would not be able to explain it. This is where religion comes in, there must be a underlying reason why humans exist on planet earth, and why there is such a thing as a universe. The entire universe and the human race cannot be one big coincidence that just happens to exist. For me, there must be a creator, not only because my religion says so, but because i refuse to believe that every human being will NOT be judged for their actions on earth once they die.

Everything happens for a reason, not just randomly, and for every action there must be a reason and consequence.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
ORD2pm
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 7):
In my opinion the very question forces one to choose between the two, and I find that to be rather narrow-minded. It is not necessarily an 'either-or' question.

thank you for that statement. You seem like a good person.
 
satx
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 21):
Just because science cannot explain God doesnot mean God doesn't exist.

What difference does it make if God exists or not anyway? Isn't doing the right thing important even if God never existed? Why must we worry about things we cannot prove or disprove? Religion was designed from the ground up to be unprovable. Why, because if it was easy to refute then it wouldn't be able to last thousands of years.
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Halcyon
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:20 am

1-God.

I also believe that science is correct many times and also incorrect many times. Science must continually be studied. There is no proof that you can ever understand all of science, and in this I see God.

Also, many people say that the rules exist, and the universe determines those rules. This is their way of explaining away how the universe is possible. It is illogical, as illogical to me as God is to them. I put my belief in a creator. When I see, say, the Golden Gate Bridge or Mount Rushmore, I know that they are not just random outcomes of billions of years of random happenings, I know that someone made them. The universe and it's inhabitants are vastly more complex. The human mind is insanely more intricate, and, to me, thinking that it can be attributed to billions of years of random evolution and chance is...interesting.

But these are just my beliefs. We'll all find out in the end. I'm happy with what I believe, though some people think I should be ashamed and sad of my ignorance. In the end, we'll all live our lives and see what death has to offer.



I agree with these two:

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 9):
Iamcanadian



Quoting Bezoar (Reply 7):
Bezoar

Well said.


Lucas  Smile
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
What difference does it make if God exists or not anyway? Isn't doing the right thing important even if God never existed? Why must we worry about things we cannot prove or disprove? Religion was designed from the ground up to be unprovable. Why, because if it was easy to refute then it wouldn't be able to last thousands of years.

It makes a difference. Without God Right and wrong is only relative.

Talking about science and God, science mainly deals with non-living events.
I will have a tough time explaining this.

Consider a car. Its speed, heading can be controlled precisely and the parameters are well defined. If something goes wrong, the reason for that is also not difficult to find out.

Consider a human. many things can be controlled but many things cannot be explained why. He feels attracted to somebody and doesn't feel to someone else. But another person may feel just the opposite. Both are humans and if it is science both should have felt the same, because in science there is a clearly defined rule and all events should follow the rules.
Then you would bring the agument that humans are intelligent and car are not.
Human can learn from a past experience and change the actions in future. Like the example of a child touching the flame of a candle for the first time, after the burn, the child learns and wouldn't do the same again.

So, now science will try to explain intelligence. How defined is that ?and it never has a linear relation to anything and can be very unpredictable.
 
TropicalSQ744
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:09 pm

You can't prove or disprove the existence of God with absolute certainty though you can say with a good amount of certainty that he doesn't exist. It's just my opinion of objective reality that you don't have to buy but I'll try to explain my position.

Science does indeed seem to reduce the need for us to use God as an explanation for our existence. In the days before Darwin, everyone pretty much was a creationist simply because it was the only explanation of how we came to be that was around. The design argument, which was used to forward the idea that God created all life form due to the complexity of living organisms, does not answer anything that it seeks to do because God would have to be as complicated (if not more) than living things. It is only evolution through natural selection that can explain the complexity and variety of life as we know today. If God were to be the designer of all life, he himself would have to have evolved from a simpler being. It seems to me that the design argument is a logical "God of the gaps" fallacy where God is used to explain gaps in human knowledge. Theologians have acknowledged this problem. (Dietrich Bonhoeffer IIRC is one of them)

Another problem with this design argument is because if God really were that intelligent, he really could have designed us better. I mean, why leave the appendix (which has no unique function) and why build our brains to operate at only 20% of its capacity and consume so much energy too? If you're interested in knowing more, you should check out "The Blind Watchmaker" by famous evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.

The first cause argument, which is more convincing though still IMO not good enough, leads to an infinite regress. If everything needs a cause and the universe needs a cause and God created the universe, who then created God? Of course, theologians have long maintained that God has always existed; it seems to me to be a cop-out and a logical fallacy. Why couldn't matter have always existed? (Not the universe, since it began at the big bang)

Since I'm posting from school, I'll continue when I get back later.
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bezoar
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 24):
Isn't doing the right thing important even if God never existed?

What is the standard for measuring or defining good and bad?

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 26):
It makes a difference. Without God Right and wrong is only relative.

Exactly! Even the most careful of humanistic thought can't produce any absolute truths or gold standard by which we can define what is 'good,' and that is a major problem.

However, I'm quite convinced that even atheists should know what is right because God has put it on their hearts. They may try to rationalize it as something they came up with, or something that is socially acceptable. We all try to rationalize how we behave.

I suspect that some atheists (and I'm NOT saying ALL here) reject God because their behavior is inconsistent with what they know is right. Their behavior separates them from God, so they try to justify this separation by denying the existence of God altogether. They can't bring themselves to believe in a God that disapproves of how they live their lives. For these people atheism provides a measure of comfort, for otherwise they risk being judged.

The problem for them, of course, is whether God could still exist despite their disbelief.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
trvyyz
Posts: 1331
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Tropicalsq744 (Reply 27):
I mean, why leave the appendix (which has no unique function) and why build our brains to operate at only 20% of its capacity and consume so much energy too?

What is the scientific explanation for this? I mean why is it so?

I have another analogy for God and Science. The Former could be viewed as analog and the latter as digital. Analog, lot of information and complex,and digital, only that what is required for humans to comprehend and see. The remaining data or signal, we say, is not required; but it is from the analog that we get the digital. Real life is analog and not digital but we humans like digital and like to think everything in balck or white, and we do not like to deal with the grey area.

[Edited 2006-11-20 04:27:12]
 
iamcanadian
Posts: 704
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 21):
Just because science cannot explain God doesnot mean God doesn't exist.

Who says science can't explain God? There are NUMEROUS pieces of evidence within our material realm that prove God's existence.

The following are quotes from agnostic scientists:

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

There are many more...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/quotes.html

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 25):
I'm happy with what I believe, though some people think I should be ashamed and sad of my ignorance.

Ignorance? Far from it! If anything, I believe that Creationists and Christians alike are quite the opposite; more open and accepting of a higher Creator!  Smile

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 25):
Well said.

Thank you.  Smile

Quoting Tropicalsq744 (Reply 27):
theologians have long maintained that God has always existed; it seems to me to be a cop-out and a logical fallacy.

Just out of curiosity, which fallacy would that be? Is it not reasonable to suggest that since all things existed MUST have been created? Since the universe EXISTS, it MUST have a creator. But there couldn't have been infinite creators...there must have been an original creator; that being God.
Seems logical to me...
Shut up and calculate.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why did God let the Holocaust happen ?
Why doesn't God heal the wounded now ?
Why hasn't God come down to earth ?
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).
If he's so great, why do people believe in different gods and religions ?
Why is it that if you don't believe in God, you're already condemned to 'hell'.
If we are all God's children, Why does God let his children run around the earth killing each other ?
Why does God let pedophiles exist ?

I have to admit that I have not read the other posts, but I feel compelled to reply to this:

I see God as the collective conciousness of those who hath been granted life on Earth. That is the power that guides us all.

That said, I will directly answer your quesions:

God is not here to prevent sorrow. God just is. There is no great plan to prevent sorrow or suffering. Life happens. God is conciousness and power, not a policeman or a director.

If you do pray to God, pray for the strength to deal with the adversity that is inevitable in life, do not pray for good to happen. That is, in my mind, foolish.

So, your questions cannot invalidate the concept of God, only your naive perception of God. You should be an Athiest for better reasons, IMO.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
iamcanadian
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:02 pm

You know what I've been REALLY wondering... when is AerospaceFan going to show up? Wink

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 31):
I see God as the collective conciousness of those who hath been granted life on Earth. That is the power that guides us all.

Could you elaborate/explain that a little better? I don't think I'm getting the right meaning out of that... confused 
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Halcyon
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 30):
Far from it! If anything, I believe that Creationists and Christians alike are quite the opposite; more open and accepting of a higher Creator! Smile

You're welcome, and my bad. Forgot to put quotation marks around that last word.

Lucas
 
trvyyz
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 30):
Who says science can't explain God? There are NUMEROUS pieces of evidence within our material realm that prove God's existence.

The following are quotes from agnostic scientists:

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."

Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"

These are not scientific proofs. Some thoughts of scientists or just because a scientist says something does not prove anything. They have to defend their findings in front of a panel of experts.

the above statements are not of science but of scientists who are humans who can sense beyond some mathematical equations.

The above statements are all like reverse proofs.

For me, I would like to say that the beauty of the existence of God is that it challenges our logic and makes us almost think it's impossible but still we know that He exists.
God cannot be quantified within the limits of science and hence cannot be proved nor be disproved.

[Edited 2006-11-20 07:13:40]
 
satx
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 26):
It makes a difference. Without God Right and wrong is only relative.

It's relative no matter what. I used to believe in God. Now I don't. My primary views on what is right and what is wrong never changed as a result.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 28):
What is the standard for measuring or defining good and bad?

I learned most of my understanding on what is right and what is wrong from my non-religious mother and from my own experiences in life when I'm on the short end of the stick.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 28):
I suspect that some atheists (and I'm NOT saying ALL here) reject God because their behavior is inconsistent with what they know is right.

Actually, it was my fellow Christians' hypocrisy that drove me from the church. America is the greatest, most powerful and quite possibly most Christian empire to have ever existed, but we sure don't seem capable of living up the ideals we claim to have been founded on. My incredible distaste for hypocrisy and the fact that Christians can't seem to hold themselves to their own high standards is what convinced me I belonged elsewhere.
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iamcanadian
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 35):
It's relative no matter what. I used to believe in God. Now I don't. My primary views on what is right and what is wrong never changed as a result.

Do you get drunk every weekend? Do you have a problem with pre-marital sexual relations? Do you gamble?

Most people (ie. non-Christians) do not have a problem with these behaviours. But as a Christian (albeit an 18 year old, but these days, it's irrelevant) I can safely say that I hold myself to these standards (of avoiding these behaviours). I'm not trying to pass judgement on you or anything, but I think you'll agree with me on saying that there ARE rights and wrongs that are quite Faith-specific. Any time someone asks me "are you still a virgin?" or "have you ever been drunk?" etc., after my answer, I usually get "Why? Oh, do you go to church?".

Quoting SATX (Reply 35):
America is the greatest, most powerful and quite possibly most Christian empire to have ever existed, but we sure don't seem capable of living up the ideals we claim to have been founded on.

How did you come to this idea that America is the most powerful and most Christian empire to have ever existed? On what aspects of the American foreign/national policy are you basing this on?
Shut up and calculate.
 
iamcanadian
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RE: God Vs Science

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 34):
These are not scientific proofs. Some thoughts of scientists or just because a scientist says something does not prove anything. They have to defend their findings in front of a panel of experts.

Aha! But I don't believe you mentioned scientific "proofs". You merely stated that

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 21):
Just because science cannot explain God doesnot mean God doesn't exist.

(emphasis added)
The way I see it, these quotes from respected scientists are the best thing you're going to get in the way of explanations OR proofs concerning the existence of God. It is merely the fact that some things CANNOT be explained by science, that shows that SOMETHING else must be at work (ie. God). Yes, I know that logically, you cannot say God is true just because there is evidence AGAINST evolution, or that God has not been "proven" to be false.

But like you said:

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 34):
God cannot be quantified within the limits of science and hence cannot be proved nor be disproved.

You've gotta take what you can get.  Smile
Shut up and calculate.
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 32):
Could you elaborate/explain that a little better? I don't think I'm getting the right meaning out of that...

Well, to me God is completely formless. God is not a he, a she, or an it. The concept of God is that of collective strength that is generated through the totality of being. It is our essence, as all living beings. It is what created life and it is our "soul," use use Western vernacular.

But it is more than that to me, because a soul connotes individuality, but to me, this essence, as it were, is identical within everyone - it IS everyone. We retain Earth-bound individuality because of clinging to Earth-bound things, but the God is the power within us all.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 11):
Why does it always have to be either God OR science?

Good point. Perhaps God one day might also be something we may be able to explain.

If you believe in God, you must believe that there is a system for all that He/She/It created, since you believe He/She/It is perfect. This perfect system is science.

If you believe in science, you must believe that even the most mysterious things can be explained, it is only a matter of time before we are actually able to understand and explain these mysteries. Until this time, you must have faith. These mysteries are, then, what most call God.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Religion has no answers.
Science has no "morals" to restrain mankind.

I am very respectful of all religious beliefs and I consider myself very open minded. However, I strongly disagree that Science has no morals (if it were so, how many clones would we have so far?) and that Religion has no answers. I believe that in many cases it is science who fails to produce an answer for the so many problems whilst it is religion who has no morals and no problem in sending brother against brother, human beings against other human beings just for the sake of the irrefutable "truths".

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
iamcanadian
Posts: 704
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 38):
Well, to me God is completely formless. God is not a he, a she, or an it.

Fair enough; I don't believe God is a "person" per se, but I do believe God has "characteristics" of a being. Love, compassion, anger: these are all emotions that only humans can possess.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 38):
It is what created life and it is our "soul,"



Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 38):
But it is more than that to me, because a soul connotes individuality, but to me, this essence, as it were, is identical within everyone - it IS everyone



Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 38):
We retain Earth-bound individuality because of clinging to Earth-bound things, but the God is the power within us all.

Okay, so what I'm getting from this is that you believe that God is merely a common "feeling" or non-material "figure" that unites us all as human beings, and gives us "power"? We are not individuals at our roots, but merely "individual" in the sense we deviate from everyone else in our material possessions and choices?

Thanks for clarifying.  Smile Interesting point of view.

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 39):
it is religion who has no morals and no problem in sending brother against brother, human beings against other human beings just for the sake of the irrefutable "truths".

I think the one thing you need to realise is that, as far as I know, religions do not CONDONE or ENCOURAGE these violent disputes we are being subjected to these days. It is the religious FANATICS that fight "in the name of [enter your religion here]".

But that's for another discussion.
Shut up and calculate.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 40):
think the one thing you need to realise is that, as far as I know, religions do not CONDONE or ENCOURAGE these violent disputes we are being subjected to these days. It is the religious FANATICS that fight "in the name of [enter your religion here]".

It is not quite that easy. Religions do condone and encourage, inasmuch as some of their prelates (popes, imams and so one) "arrange" and interpret the written word in books such as the bible and the Koran to their needs. And many of the historical religion wars were not carried out by fanatics, but by loyal and humble servants of the "church" in question (cue crusades). These disputes are much older than the new surge in religious violence, but the M.O seems to be the same (i.e. God has talked to me, etc.).

This is one of the reasons I firmly disagree with anyone that tells me that any of the religious literature such as the bible contains "the truth" or the "word of God". All interpretations, in my point of view.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
trvyyz
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 41):
It is not quite that easy. Religions do condone and encourage, inasmuch as some of their prelates (popes, imams and so one) "arrange" and interpret the written word in books such as the bible and the Koran to their needs. And many of the historical religion wars were not carried out by fanatics, but by loyal and humble servants of the "church" in question (cue crusades). These disputes are much older than the new surge in religious violence, but the M.O seems to be the same (i.e. God has talked to me, etc.).

I don't know about islam, but I know about Christianity.
Have you heard of the Ten Commandements.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:12 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why did God let the Holocaust happen ?
Why doesn't God heal the wounded now ?
Why hasn't God come down to earth ?
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).
If he's so great, why do people believe in different gods and religions ?
Why is it that if you don't believe in God, you're already condemned to 'hell'.
If we are all God's children, Why does God let his children run around the earth killing each other ?
Why does God let pedophiles exist ?

Because God give us free will.
Most of your question can be answered only with a little effort from yourself. Doing some study.
Additional question to yours?
Why do you mention so many times a God that according to you does not exist ?
Why do God allow the "atheism" ?
Once again. God give us free will.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 3):
Why do the people in Bible have such 'modern' names, David, Mathew, (sound a bit modern for me).

I think that the correct question is why do many people have Biblical names ? Not the opossite.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 40):
what I'm getting from this is that you believe that God is merely a common "feeling" or non-material "figure" that unites us all as human beings, and gives us "power"?

I certainly wouldn't use the word "merely," as the essence that is God and us is the most powerful thing of all.

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 40):
Love, compassion, anger: these are all emotions that only humans can possess

These emotions are generated through our attachment to the material world. To me God isn't loving or compassionate, God is the essence of love and the essence of compassion. A seemingly subtle difference, but an important one. Loving and being compassionate involve human thought. God doesn't think, God is.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
TACAA320
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 45):
God doesn't think, God is

...omniscient !
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 19):
To say that science doesn't aim to explain why is absolutely incorrect.

Actually, you are incorrect...science can never explain the question of "why"..it could only explain the question of "how"..

Science can't explain why carbon binds with oxygen, but it can explain how molecular orbitals are formed, how light behaves in one medium and different in another.....how oxygen bonds with hydrogen, how nitroglycerine is made...or why the visibile spectrum is red,orange,yellow,green,blue,indigo,violet and not black, white, etc.

It's a subtle, yet big difference...

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 21):

Just because science cannot explain God doesnot mean God doesn't exist.

 checkmark ..

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 21):
Science itself is evolving continuously

 checkmark ...even Einstein's Theories on Relativity breakdown on a subatomic level....

Answering the op..I believe in both
"Up the Irons!"
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 19):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Science aims to explain how things work, not to explain why they developed as they did.

I think I know what you mean to say, but the way you phrased it is not accurate.

Point taken. It is a very deep-rooted "why". If you ask why evolution worked out as it did and answer "through trial and error and survival of the fittest", you can immediately ask why there wasn't any terminal early "error" making life as we know it impossible. Alex worded it differently:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 39):
If you believe in God, you must believe that there is a system for all that He/She/It created, since you believe He/She/It is perfect. This perfect system is science.

"Perfect" is of course wide open to interpretation, but the main point is what I was trying to say... bad sleep deprivation! Bad!  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
satx
Posts: 2771
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RE: God Vs Science

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 36):
Do you get drunk every weekend? Do you have a problem with pre-marital sexual relations? Do you gamble?

You bet, but I never really thought these things were terribly evil even when I believed in God. I don't understand why polluting your body is wrong but polluting our air, land and water is no big deal. I don't understand why gambling with money is so evil but gambling with our environment isn't considered a terribly serious sin.

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 36):
How did you come to this idea that America is the most powerful and most Christian empire to have ever existed? On what aspects of the American foreign/national policy are you basing this on?

If we're not the most powerful, then who is? We still have the most powerful military, the largest commercial market, and we export more of our culture than any other country around today. If we're not the most Christian, then who is? 83% of Americans claim to be Christians. 90% claim to believe in "God". If this were an atheist super-power I know I'd be pretty darn disappointed in my fellow atheists.
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