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Braybuddy
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Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:42 pm

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...p3?ca=33&si=1728350&issue_id=14916

You need a password to accesss the article, and I can´t paste the entire piece for copyright reasons, but here is an excerpt:

"ALMOST 40pc of the land used by Israel for its settlements in the occupied West Bank is the private property of Palestinians.

The Israeli organisation Peace Now made the revelation yesterday on the basis of leaked official maps and other data.

Contrary to official claims that the land used for settlements is state-owned and that private property is only seized temporarily for security reasons, the leak shows that privately owned Palestinian land has been repeatedly used to build and expand settlements."

This is the core of the problem in the Middle East, and until it is solved there will never be peace.
 
EK156
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:48 pm

Hmmm.... funny how no one is responding to this thread from our Pro-Israeli A.netters
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 1):

Consider the source and the source of the source . . . .

Have a nice day.

Thanks for playing.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:38 pm

Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
"ALMOST 40pc of the land used by Israel for its settlements in the occupied West Bank is the private property of Palestinians.

The Israeli organisation Peace Now made the revelation yesterday on the basis of leaked official maps and other data.

Contrary to official claims that the land used for settlements is state-owned and that private property is only seized temporarily for security reasons, the leak shows that privately owned Palestinian land has been repeatedly used to build and expand settlements."

Naturally, the only logical thing to do in response is to have 12 year olds strap backpacks full of explosives and ball bearings to their bodies so they can detonate themselves in shopping malls.

See? When your mind is warped enough, you can justify just about anything... duck 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
bravo45
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):

Are you implying that Israel has not stolen land or that this is disputed??

This is not news. Follow Middle Eastern news sources including Israeli ones, and your'll hear talk of Apartheid and Bandstands. Israel is proud of what it has done and only wants to steal more.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
See? When your mind is warped enough, you can justify just about anything...

Agreed, like when one's mind is wrapped around the memories of say the Holocaust, its easy to justify the ethnic cleansing of millions who had nothing to do with it.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:09 pm

I think the solution is to have an independent Israel and independent Palestine with clearly defined borders - with Jerusalem being designated an "International Free Zone" where neither side can claim ownership of it.

And then both sides need to go to Home Depot, get some lumber and start "building that bridge"...  Wink
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
andessmf
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):
Are you implying that Israel has not stolen land or that this is disputed??

Saw the source, believed the source, and then remembered that the anti-Israel side never discussed this issue. Let's see if I can place this in a clear light.

- The West Bank territory is not Israel, well known and accepted
- Any land Israel occupies in the West Bank (or Gaza) is 'occupied', or in another words, stolen.

But for you anti-Israel people, your point has always been THAT THE ENTIRE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL WAS 'STOLEN'.

So now that we are in agreement that Israel stole territory from the West Bank, why don't you give us your opinion on whether the rest of recognized territory of Israel is also stolen. That way, we will know exactly where your opinions lie, instead of these little insinuations.
 
bravo45
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):
Are you implying that Israel has not stolen land or that this is disputed??

Saw the source, believed the source, and then remembered that the anti-Israel side...

I have been on this forum for many years. I see except of my post followed by you addressing the 'Anti-Israeli side'. I can only assume it maybe directed at me. Why don't you show me a link to ANY of my posts proving me anti-Israeli, feel free to spend hours. When you do, we'll talk.
And though I can't speak for others, just for my information, I wouldn't mind you quoting ANY post proving anyone anti-Israeli.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):

Are you implying that Israel has not stolen land or that this is disputed??

Nope, I questioned the source . . .

Rather like relying on Amnesty International to give an accurate picture of GitMo, or the ACLU to give an accurate account of what really happened on ANY issue, or FOX News to be "Fair and Balanced".

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
Peace Now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_Now
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NAV20
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
So now that we are in agreement that Israel stole territory from the West Bank, why don't you give us your opinion on whether the rest of recognized territory of Israel is also stolen. That way, we will know exactly where your opinions lie, instead of these little insinuations.

I don't know how many times I, for one, have said that Israel should withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. This would include return of the Golan Heights, the Shebaa Farms, all areas settled since 1967, and the west bank of the Jordan River itself; and the placing of the City of Jerusalem under international administration as envisaged by the original UN Resolution.

There is no reasonable doubt that agreement to those terms would lead to immediate recognition of the State of Israel by all its Arab neighbours, including Palestine.

So, AndesSMF, do you agree that that is the way to go forward and end the trouble in the region?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Rather like relying on Amnesty International to give an accurate picture of GitMo, or the ACLU to give an accurate account of what really happened on ANY issue, or FOX News to be "Fair and Balanced".

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
Peace Now

Haven´t time to read the whole piece ANC as I´m on a hotel computer and limited to 20 mins at a time, but I don´t have a problem with Peace Now being the source of information. I´d probably put more store in it than government propaganda.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:00 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 11):

Rest assured, it's not YOU I distrust . . . not at all . . . rather the source of the report . . . as I said, reminds me of Amesty Int'l etc . . . so no affront to you personally . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:52 pm

For once and for all in this forum - even "Arab" defenders here do not support terrorist attacks ,civilian killings,denial on the right of existence for Israel...
As far as I read participants speaking in favour of manageable peace,they all agree on :
-as long as you persist in maintaining misery for Palestinians by denying them a life-worthy state with enough land and water ,infrastructure and free access,things will not change
-reduce by (international ) political pressure extremist influence on both sides
-stop violating history one-sided to the benefit to one community

I would like to add that religion has never been a good adviser for settling any conflicts.All the mess in the region is -primarily-based on a rather religious interpretation of history books.
But religion is an intangible ,virtual issue-loaded full with emotions but no real proof of existence.
Each side interprets history books they find in-line with their believes.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
rolfen
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Consider the source and the source of the source . . . .

Until you people recognise that you may sometimes be wrong... there will be war.

Like bob marley said...

Until
The philosophy
Which holds one race superior
And another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned
Everywhere is War
Me say war
...

(Bob Marley - War)

Yes the palestinian are not inferior - they are not liars and you right - they are not criminals and you flawless...

Start by acknowledging that the regime that you support in Israel can commit crimes. The truth is never White and Black. It's Gray.

At the end of the story, both people would have committed crimes and wrongdoings. No one is innocent.

Thank you USA for your civilisation. I am taking the time to write this post and all other similar posts because of my love for civilisation that the US and Europe brought to the world and I hope one day the USA and Israel will be have the courage to look at their mistakes and be wise and set the example when it comes to preserving peace.
rolf
 
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n229nw
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 14):

Great post. That about sums it up.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Rather like relying on Amnesty International to give an accurate picture of GitMo

Why do you keep harping on about Amnesty and HRW etc.?
These human rights groups (Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, etc.) are exactly the sources I DO trust. They tend to condemn everyone who violates human rights, and have pretty clear cross-cultural guidelines on what constitutes such violations.

I have done work in human rights, my wife has done more. I can easliy say that these groups are offering the reliable reports, while official government reports (from ANY government) are FAR less reliable, as there is much more pressure on what should be found. I'm not saying that any source is 100% reliable. In fact, I think EVERY source (and every person) has some agenda, some angle, and a healthy balance of perspectives is always called for. But still, these are among the strongest sources.

In short, watchdog agencies (which include Peace Now) are realy essential, and I find it quite terrifying that there are so many people who want to protect any authority figure or official line from questioning, rather than working toward justice.

Can you give me an example of Amnesty distorting facts? (And not from some government propaganda counterclaim...)

And what is the Wikipedia entry on Peace Now supposed to show, aside from the fact that they have moved in from the left over recent years (even supporting the Lebanon invasion, etc.)? Please do explain that one...
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:20 am

There will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map. This conflict is not about land, and has never been about land. It's about the existence of a Jewish state. The Arabs/Palestinians have been given opportunity after opportunity to form their own state and have the entire Western world assist them, but they have turned it down time and time again.

Just within the past year alone, Ehud Olmert was elected on a platform of pulling out of the West Bank (aka doing what several posters here suggested, returning most of the land occupied after 1967) and what did the Palestinians do? Launched thousands of rockets into Israel from Gaza (which is now free from the supposed cause of all problems in the world, "Israeli occupation")
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 14):
Until you people recognise that you may sometimes be wrong... there will be war.

Who the hell is "You People"??? Sounds like a disease or something.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
Why do you keep harping on about Amnesty and HRW etc.?

Because they SUCK! Theere is but one agenda, find fault where there is probably none. Unless some piece of shit scumbag terrorist assholeis living in the Taj Mahal every day with A/C and room service blah blah blah then everything else is dicke up. Those prisoners at GitMo for example . . . living better as far as accomodation, meals, petc than they ever have . . . it's high time we got them the hell out of there if course . . . but those frackin' wackos from Amensty or anyo other bleeding heart organization won't see that.

Does that answer the question for you  sarcastic 

Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
you give me an example of Amnesty distorting facts? (And not from some government propaganda counterclaim...)

I suppose I could , but based on this, why the hell bother . . . .

Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
have done work in human rights, my wife has done more.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NAV20
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
Ehud Olmert was elected on a platform of pulling out of the West Bank (aka doing what several posters here suggested, returning most of the land occupied after 1967)

Not even 'most', RJPieces, 'some'. And NOT including East Jerusalem, the area occupied by illegal settlements, the Jordan bank (and water rights), or the main roads. Effectively, all that the Palestinians have ever been offered is a series of 'reservations' with Israel controlling the water, the most fertile land, the roads, all means of contact with the outside world, and even communication between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Plus holding on the the Golan and Shebaa.

Ever since WW2 it's been an established international principle that no nation should be allowed to acquire and hold on to territory seized by military force. I see no reason why Israel should be granted an exemption from that cardinal priniciple.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
fspilot747
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Because they SUCK!

Yeah, that group that aims at helping the unfortunate, the underdogs, the poor, and those without civil rights sure sucks.

get your head out of rush limbaugh's ass.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
I suppose I could , but based on this, why the hell bother . . . .

Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
have done work in human rights, my wife has done more.

 sarcastic  Because someone is (God forbid) concerned with human rights makes it not worth bothering to argue with them?

Let's just turn this around: if you don't believe in a universal standard of human rights, on what do you base your ideas about good and evil? What makes a war just or unjust? Might makes right? Anyone presumed guilty of being on the "other side" can be treated any way you want at any time?

Terrifying.

And yet I know you don't think this. You are (rightfully) hard on bad soldiers, torture, flawed policy etc. when you admit it occurs. The issue is that if anyone claims that it might be occurring on a larger scale than you want to believe, or in a place you don't want to believe it is happening, or by people you want to like, you don't want to hear it...

Gitmo is a tangent here, but since it seems to be at the heart of your burning hatred of human rights watchdog groups, I would add that it is not contradictory to say that in some ways prisoners have been treated well at Gitmo, and in other ways they have been treated inexcusably (largely because of policies based on the presumption of guilt even though the prisoners were captured in haphazard ways and thrown together as "terrorists.") If we cannot hold ourselves to the standards we claim to be fighting for in a "war on terror," then how can anyone take any moral ground at all?

______________________________

RJpieces, there are elements of Arab populations that will never accept Israel's existence. And there are elements in Israel that will never accept less than "greater Israel." The extremists on both sides currently wield too much power because weak leadership has played into their hands--and because in the rest of the world, people find it easier to unite in solidarity with the enemy of their imagined enemy (no matter how unsavory) rather than to consider the situation from a more balanced perspective.

And much of your post is utter and complete  redflag  as Nav20 points out. If Israel continues to "generously" pull out of certain areas in a showy display to the US while continuing and accelerating its taking and settlement of the best (and most strategically located) land, and retaining overall control of access and vital resources, you can honestly wonder why their plans are not seen as fair and peaceful by the people living there?

Only an outside broker can exert enough pressure on both sides that a compromise can be set in motion, and gradually gain momentum.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
kevin
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:59 pm

Palestinians sold their lands to Israelis in 30s , 40s, 50s... Quid Pro Quo kind of deal. Went away, lost their money somewhere, came back and started demanding their lands back. Well in this case there were no refunds, it's not like you bought a desk from IKEA, so than they decided to take it back by force and that's how it all started...


 
kevin
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:13 pm

Oh my!

Now bring it on!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
and the placing of the City of Jerusalem under international administration as envisaged by the original UN Resolution.

According to the Israeli Government, it can never happen, as Israel believes Jerusalem is "eternally" Israel's. That is why it wants the United States Govt. to move its foreing embassy there from Tel Aviv...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 13):
For once and for all in this forum - even "Arab" defenders here do not support terrorist attacks ,civilian killings,denial on the right of existence for Israel...

 checkmark ...but that's unfortunately not how the media portrays it as...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):

This is not news. Follow Middle Eastern news sources including Israeli ones, and your'll hear talk of Apartheid and Bandstands. Israel is proud of what it has done and only wants to steal more.

 checkmark 

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
But for you anti-Israel people, your point has always been THAT THE ENTIRE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL WAS 'STOLEN'.

Ummm..even if that were true (which I think it is, but that's not the point), the fact of the matter is Israel exists, its established by laws in the United Nation and must be respected...

The Arab nations need to understand this.....some are..that is why Egypt and Jordan have treaties, flights, business, etc. to Israel. Even Dubai does business with Israel. The President of Pakistan Musharaff has stated that he believes Pakistan should acknowledge the country of Israel.

If this conflict could somehow end, more countries would have ties with Israel.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
These human rights groups (Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, etc.) are exactly the sources I DO trust. They tend to condemn everyone who violates human rights, and have pretty clear cross-cultural guidelines on what constitutes such violations.

 checkmark ...I find the Human Rights Groups to be the most fair and balanced...they don't hesitate to critisize any side...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
There will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map.

Talk about a blanket statement... sarcastic ...

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Theere is but one agenda,

Which is?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
Not even 'most', RJPieces, 'some'. And NOT including East Jerusalem, the area occupied by illegal settlements, the Jordan bank (and water rights), or the main roads. Effectively, all that the Palestinians have ever been offered is a series of 'reservations' with Israel controlling the water, the most fertile land, the roads, all means of contact with the outside world, and even communication between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Plus holding on the the Golan and Shebaa.

 checkmark ..the media never tells this small, yet crucial part of the story..

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 19):
get your head out of rush limbaugh's ass.

 rotfl 

Quoting N229NW (Reply 20):
RJpieces, there are elements of Arab populations that will never accept Israel's existence. And there are elements in Israel that will never accept less than "greater Israel." The extremists on both sides currently wield too much power because weak leadership has played into their hands--and because in the rest of the world, people find it easier to unite in solidarity with the enemy of their imagined enemy (no matter how unsavory) rather than to consider the situation from a more balanced perspective.

 checkmark ...
"Up the Irons!"
 
rolfen
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Who the hell is "You People"??? Sounds like a disease or something.

Well I was thinking about you and people who think like you  Yeah sure
I consider that amnesty international is a very reliable source...
but anyway...regardless... fact is hundreds of fortified israeli settlement are built over palestinian soil, and if that's not occupation then what is it...
rolf
 
rolfen
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
There will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map. This conflict is not about land, and has never been about land. It's about the existence of a Jewish state. The Arabs/Palestinians have been given opportunity after opportunity to form their own state and have the entire Western world assist them, but they have turned it down time and time again.

Do you really think palestinian want to wipe israel off the map?
They're past that.
Apart from some extremists who might be getting too much attention, the majority of palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity.
rolf
 
rufruf
Posts: 42
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:05 pm

To the Original post...

Whats your point ?

Do you hate whats wrong with the world ? Or do you just post your personnel bitches ? Let's change it. Some people feel the Sun is to hot. Some people feel the winters are to cold. A lot of people are looking for a home. Help them .
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
Do you really think palestinian want to wipe israel off the map?

Yes. Not all, but most.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
They're past that.

If Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands is the source of the conflict, then why have the Palestinians launched/allowed their neighbors to launch thousands of rockets into Israel in the past year?

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
the majority of palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity.

Certainly not the majority; I'd call it a significant minority that doesn't speak up out of fear of being killed...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cedars747
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Must be a mistake.............Israel has been doing many mistakes lately  Wink
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Theere is but one agenda, find fault where there is probably none.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
I find the Human Rights Groups to be the most fair and balanced...they don't hesitate to critisize any side

Gotta protect those sources of revenue. That's what it's all about. If your very job depends on the charity of others they'll blast whomever gets mentioned at the fundraiser.

Israel paid for those lands in blood. They didn't ask for those fights, they were forced on them. I think any country, especially the size of Israel, with threats from 3 sides, would be pretty tenative on giving anything back.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
damirc
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RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
Israel paid for those lands in blood. They didn't ask for those fights, they were forced on them. I think any country, especially the size of Israel, with threats from 3 sides, would be pretty tenative on giving anything back.

We're talking about the West Bank here ...

So are you herewith saying that fighting for land is legal?

D.
 
qr332
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
But for you anti-Israel people, your point has always been THAT THE ENTIRE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL WAS 'STOLEN'.

Whether you like it or not, the State of Israel today exists on land that was stolen from Palestinian Arabs whom they ethnically cleansed; where do you think those 800,000 refugees in 1948 came from? This was not all Jewish land inhabited by Jews, it was a land with a large Arab population which outnumbered the Jewish one; most of the Arabs on that land were forced out and have never been given the right to return since. These are all verifiable historical facts.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 7):
So now that we are in agreement that Israel stole territory from the West Bank, why don't you give us your opinion on whether the rest of recognized territory of Israel is also stolen. That way, we will know exactly where your opinions lie, instead of these little insinuations.

My opinion is that Israel was formed on land stolen from Palestinians, but that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it now and that 58 years on, its time to move on and concentrate on making a state inside the 1967 borders. But, I also believe that this is made impossible by Israel because of the settlements, the issue of Jerusalem, and the lack of compromise on their behalf.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
There will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map. This conflict is not about land, and has never been about land. It's about the existence of a Jewish state. The Arabs/Palestinians have been given opportunity after opportunity to form their own state and have the entire Western world assist them, but they have turned it down time and time again.

That desire will never disappear as long as Israel keeps doing what it does; just look at what they did in Beit Hanoun last week! The conflict is all about land, and has nothing to do with Judaism or the existence of a goddamn Jewish state. It has a lot to do with the fact that Palestinians today are forced to live in horrid conditions, under occupation (and the withdrawal from Gaza was hardly leaving them alone) and with little no rights.

And don't give me that BS about Palestinians being given opportunities, none of the deals given so far have been fair, and don't tell me Palestinians have the entire Western world assisting them when the Western world only started looking at what was going on in Palestine after the Munich kidnappings - which is pretty sad, considering that is what it took. Even then, what the hell has the Western world done? The Palestinians are still being occupied, murdered and terrorized, and have been for the past God knows how long. Today, Palestinians are being caged in by the "security wall", our capital is being more and more isolated from the rest of the West Bank by settlements and everything is getting worse, yet nobody speaks out... just look at how the US vetoed the resolution condemning what happened in Beit Hanoun.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
Just within the past year alone, Ehud Olmert was elected on a platform of pulling out of the West Bank (aka doing what several posters here suggested, returning most of the land occupied after 1967) and what did the Palestinians do? Launched thousands of rockets into Israel from Gaza (which is now free from the supposed cause of all problems in the world, "Israeli occupation")

Ehud Olmert isn't exactly the best example right now, considering he starved Gaza and destroyed Lebanon's economy this summer. You think Palestinians really believe what the likes of Olmert, a war criminal, says? Or do you expect us to believe Lieberman, who is probably your role model? With politicians like that being elected into positions in Israel, no wonder no Palestinian ever trusts what Israel says.

Quoting Kevin (Reply 21):
Palestinians sold their lands to Israelis in 30s , 40s, 50s... Quid Pro Quo kind of deal. Went away, lost their money somewhere, came back and started demanding their lands back. Well in this case there were no refunds, it's not like you bought a desk from IKEA, so than they decided to take it back by force and that's how it all started...

Really now? So a simple question then, where did 800,000 refugees come from in 1948? Or did they choose to live in refugee camps with conditions fit for animals? Jews did own land in Palestine in the 40s, but it was very little compared to the size of Israel today, and Palestinians owned much more land in what is Israel today. What, you think we Palestinians just sold out country out and then just when "whoops!" Like you said, this isn't a desk from IKEA, it is an entire country, not one plot of land which can be bought and sold.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 27):
Yes. Not all, but most.

Again, why? Because of the way they are treated, the way they are forced to live and the constant occupation. When someone is forced to live in such conditions, they won't exactly love the person forcing them to live in such a manner. Unless, of course, you expect the entire Palestinian population to be struck by a strong case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 27):
If Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands is the source of the conflict, then why have the Palestinians launched/allowed their neighbors to launch thousands of rockets into Israel in the past year?

Because Israel has never, at any point, stopped its attacks on Palestinians. When they pulled out of Gaza, they tightened down on the West Bank and started aggressively expanding the settlements more and more, not to mention striking at Gaza whenever they felt like it.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 27):
Certainly not the majority; I'd call it a significant minority that doesn't speak up out of fear of being killed...

So your conclusion is that:
-Palestinians want to stay in constant war.
-Palestinians enjoy living under occupation.
-Palestinians are just born to hate Jews.

Nope, makes perfect sense, RJ!  Yeah sure

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 29):
Israel paid for those lands in blood. They didn't ask for those fights, they were forced on them. I think any country, especially the size of Israel, with threats from 3 sides, would be pretty tenative on giving anything back.

Eh? The West Bank was taken in 1967 and it was nothing more than land grab. Israel hardly paid for that land with blood, it paid for it with the blood of the Palestinians and still continues to do so.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Damirc (Reply 30):
We're talking about the West Bank here ...



Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
Eh? The West Bank was taken in 1967 and it was nothing more than land grab. Israel hardly paid for that land with blood, it paid for it with the blood of the Palestinians and still continues to do so.

Yep you're both right that 6 day war was nothing. Just because the Israelis fought of 3 arab armies........
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Quoting N229NW (Reply 15):
Why do you keep harping on about Amnesty and HRW etc.?

Because they SUCK!



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
I find the Human Rights Groups to be the most fair and balanced...they don't hesitate to critisize any side..

ANC, I have found by reading what Amnesty International itself publishes (Not HRW) and have found them to be unbiased. As Jacobin pointed out, they have criticized both sides, but only one-sided criticism is publicized. AI had a report that accussed The Hez of war crimes during the Lebanon conflict, for example.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
Do you really think palestinian want to wipe israel off the map?

Yes.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
They're past that.

And showed that by picking Hamas as their representative.  sarcastic 

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
Apart from some extremists who might be getting too much attention, the majority of palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity.

See above. Did the blown up grandma not get lauded in the media and by her family for her 'courage'.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
So a simple question then, where did 800,000 refugees come from in 1948?

Are we talking about the Jewish refugees from Arab lands here?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 31):
When someone is forced to live in such conditions, they won't exactly love the person forcing them to live in such a manner

And what kind of treatment do you receive from other Arab countries, and do you love those other Arab countries?

Here is the funny thing. In the present, we discuss that only if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders, there would be peace. In 1967, the very existance of Israel was enough to elicit complaints. Prior to 1948, you could find plenty of countries, INCLUDING THE US, that found the Jews to be a HUGE problem.

My point, there will always be reasons why some people choose to have against the Jews, if this report wasn't out, there would have been something else to complain about. And the cycle will continue until people here stop and move on.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
Are we talking about the Jewish refugees from Arab lands here?

What happened in Arab countries other than Palestine is irrelevant to me as a Palestinian, us Palestinians did not do that to them and hence it has absolutely nothing to do with us. If Yemen or Iraq or whoever decided to expel the Jews there, how is that our fault?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
And what kind of treatment do you receive from other Arab countries, and do you love those other Arab countries?

No, most refugees (i'm not a refugee, btw, I come from Nablus in the West Bank) don't love those other Arab countries, but at the same time, even the worst country when it comes to treatment of refugees, Lebanon, treats Palestinians much better than Israel does.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
Here is the funny thing. In the present, we discuss that only if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders, there would be peace. In 1967, the very existance of Israel was enough to elicit complaints. Prior to 1948, you could find plenty of countries, INCLUDING THE US, that found the Jews to be a HUGE problem.

Whats your point? We were not among those who found the Jews a problem (until they started emigrating to Palestine in huge numbers, that is, and talk of taking it over started). If the US, or Europe, or whoever was anti-semitic, why should we, as Palestinians, have had to pay?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
My point, there will always be reasons why some people choose to have against the Jews, if this report wasn't out, there would have been something else to complain about. And the cycle will continue until people here stop and move on.

Oh for God's sake, stop victimizing the Jews, this has absolutely nothing with them being Jewish. This conflict is not about religion, just look at the way Palestinians are forced to live and you will understand why things are as they are.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:52 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):
What happened in Arab countries other than Palestine is irrelevant to me as a Palestinian, us Palestinians did not do that to them and hence it has absolutely nothing to do with us. If Yemen or Iraq or whoever decided to expel the Jews there, how is that our fault?

OK, you are correct about that one.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):

No, most refugees (i'm not a refugee, btw, I come from Nablus in the West Bank) don't love those other Arab countries, but at the same time, even the worst country when it comes to treatment of refugees, Lebanon, treats Palestinians much better than Israel does.

I would have to disagree in some ways, but that is probably another discussion.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):
Whats your point?

That there have been many complaints about Jews from time immemorial, and the prior complaint is usually rendered irrelevant when a new one arises.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):
why should we, as Palestinians, have had to pay?

There have been many other groups in the world who have had to pay for the ambitions of another group. Why should the Palestinians be the one who be treated differently?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):
Oh for God's sake, stop victimizing the Jews

I have many time reiterated my opinion that BOTH SIDES ARE VICTIMS. And I still stand by that statement. I merely try to add other parts of the puzzle which have been forgotten. IMHO, to say it again, the Palestinians were victims of both Jews and Arabs, but for Palestinians who mostly blame the Jews for their problems are missing a large chunk of it by not discussing the raw deal the Arabs also gave you.

For example, my mention of the Jewish refugee problem. You are correct in stating that this was not caused by Palestinians, AND YOU ARE TOTALLY CORRECT. But if it wasn't for the Arab countries that sent 600,000 Jews to your lands, the problems there might be a little less now.
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):

I am waiting for your response.
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 27):
Certainly not the majority; I'd call it a significant minority

I'm not gonna challenge you on your sources because I dont have any reliable sources either but I consider it common sense to assume that all what people want is to live in peace and dignity.

I will dare to say that they elected hamas because they considered the previous gouvernement incapable of protecting them, and that it was a defensive move.

 Yeah sure

Anyway I wouldnt like to be in their shoes.
rolf
 
Aleksandar
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 11:43 pm

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 16):
There will not be peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up their desire to wipe Israel off the map.



Quoting Rolfen (Reply 25):
Do you really think palestinian want to wipe israel off the map?
They're past that.
Apart from some extremists who might be getting too much attention, the majority of palestinians just want to live in peace and dignity.

Not too long ago, Arab League offered to acknowledge Israel if Israel dismantles its settlements from the West Bank and Gaza and when the state of Palestine is finally created. I believe that offer is still on the table and it seems like a fair deal.

Now, there are two problems:
1. Jerusalem
2. the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes.

So, instead of accusing each others, it seems wiser to concentrate on those two issues.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Thread starter):
This is the core of the problem in the Middle East, and until it is solved there will never be peace.

Funny how this escapes any mention whatsoever in the U.S.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790934.html

accept this source?

Well played...any waves in Israel over this?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 4):
Naturally, the only logical thing to do in response is to have 12 year olds strap backpacks full of explosives and ball bearings to their bodies so they can detonate themselves in shopping malls.

While I agree with your basic point, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any numbers that suggest innocent Israelis are dying in greater numbers than innocent Palestinians. I'm sure the Palestinians doing the killing would use F-16s and shock troops if they had them, but that's hardly the case. As a wise band once said, "ordinary people do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary."
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israelis Admit Stealing Palestinian Land

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 39):
Funny how this escapes any mention whatsoever in the U.S.

Because it isn't true? Americans aren't foolish enough to think that a small dispute between Israelis and Palestinians is the core problem in a region that spans from Morocco to Afghanistan, has lots of inter-fighting and always has, and has numerous other problems. Anyone who believes that solving Israeli-Palestinian troubles will solve the problems in Iran, Tunisia, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc etc and the problems this brings the US is dreaming.

Europeans still believe this crap, probably because it feeds on their age-old anti-semitism that the Jews are the cause of the world's problems. But most American policymakers are aware of this European bias.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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