Queso
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Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:10 am

I wonder how many school shootings Juneau, Alaska has experienced?

Anybody have a problem with this? Why can't we do this in ALL schools?

From Anchorage Daily News, fair-use excerpt:

http://www.adn.com/news/education/story/8446166p-8340353c.html

"Tom Milliron figures Juneau schoolchildren are going to encounter guns one way or another, whether venturing armed into nearby wilderness or visiting the home of a friend.

Better they learn how to handle a firearm safely than hurt themselves through ignorance, he says.

Milliron is principal of one of Juneau's two middle schools. Sixth-graders under his care last month completed an outdoor education course that included instruction in safe handling of guns and firing rounds from .22-caliber rifles. For some children, it was the first time they'd touched a gun."

"Milliron used to teach in Cube Cove, a logging camp on Admiralty Island. Outdoor education was crucial in such a wild setting, he said. He took the job at Juneau's Floyd Dryden Middle School eight years ago and found volunteers who wanted firearm education in public schools, including Tom Coate.

More than two decades ago, Coate had taught his 10-year-old son, Tobin, how to safely handle guns before they went waterfowl hunting. Then his son's friends wanted to go too. They were "dumber than a brick" about gun safety, Coate said.

He helped promote hunter safety programs in a 4-H club, then at rural village schools, and starting in 2000, at the Juneau middle school. About 1,200 students have taken the course.

The program has provided a counterbalance to the portrayal of guns on "the idiot tube," Coate said."

"Sixth grade, when students are still in awe of teachers, is the perfect setting to teach gun safety, Milliron said.

"In sixth grade, we can get kids to internalize the need to practice safety around firearms," he said. "They're willing to listen to instructors and take to heart what instructors tell them.""

"Taylor Daniels, 11, learned she should never direct a muzzle at another person and never shoot across a highway. She learned that keeping a rifle's action open will render it inoperative, and that the barrel wiggles far less if she's kneeling instead of standing when she shoots.

Phillip Fenumiai, 12, said he felt confident he can handle a rifle.

"If someone asked me, I could do the proper things and learn how to keep myself safe and make sure I'm handling it safely," he said.

The program has not been adopted at the city's other middle school.

"I think the administrators' feeling on it was that that was something we felt families would support rather than school," said Barb Mecum, principal of Dzantik'i Heeni Middle school.

But even gun control advocates don't have much reaction to programs that teach gun safety, such as the one in Juneau.

"We generally don't have much of a problem with them as long as the actual firing of weapons is off campus and there's the appropriate law enforcement, professional trainers, present," said Peter Hamm, communications director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

"We think it's far better that people know how to safely handle a firearm than not know," he said.

Sixth grade is an appropriate age for training, if parents approve, he said."
 
avt007
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:14 am

It's a great idea, especially in Alaska, where kids would be more likely to be exposed to firearms. No doubt some people won't like it, but if a kid comes across a rifle at home, or at a friends place, I sure hope he's been taught proper firearm safety.
 
lowrider
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:25 am

I agree. I don't know why someone hasn't done this earlier. I just hope it doesn't become so watered down as to be useless.
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jwenting
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 2):
I don't know why someone hasn't done this earlier

political correctness... Schools are mostly run by leftists with an anti-gun agenda.
This is clearly shown by the response to any school shooting which is to call for stronger anti-gun laws (never mind that the weapons used are almost exclusively gotten illegally anyway) instead of arming teachers and other staff.

Schools have been turned into a target-rich, low-threat environment, ideal for anyone with a grudge against society to make their mark.
The targets being children only makes it better, as that ensures nationwide press coverage where going into a bank and shooting it out with the (armed) guards will at most make the local daily.
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grandtheftaero
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am

Firearm Basics would prevent crap like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15913140

Teen kills best friend with stolen gun
Youth faces manslaughter, theft charges
The Associated Press

LUCIE, Fla. - A teenager stole a gun from a patrol car and accidentally shot his best friend in the forehead, killing him, police said.

The 17-year-old shooter was arrested on grand theft charges, and will face manslaughter charges in the death of Robert Scott Thomas Jr., Port St. Lucie police spokeswoman Michelle Steele said.

The Associated Press is not identifying the teen because of his age.

Thomas was hanging out in his friend’s bedroom Friday when the boy showed off a .380 Colt pistol. He told authorities he and some friends stole the gun from a patrol car owned by a Martin County Sheriff’s deputy. It was unclear if the car was locked, Steele said.

The boy removed the magazine from the gun, but didn’t realize a bullet was in the chamber. He hit Thomas in the forehead, knocking him off the end of the bed. Thomas was on life support and pronounced dead on Saturday, Steele said.

The 17-year-old was at a juvenile detention center Saturday. It was not known whether he had a lawyer.

[Edited 2006-11-27 18:51:30]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:55 am

Good call up here. Since virtually every home has a firearm of some sort, and there's no guarantee that the kids are getting proper training at home, putting it in the schools seems logical.

Alaska's unique subsistence lifestyle often means kids are firing guns long before they are driving. . . . to survive in some cases.

Perhaps other school districts will see this model and do something similar - particularly in more rural Bush communities . . . Bethel, Dillingham, Nome, Kotzebue, Barrow, McGrath, just a few come to mind.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
miamiair
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:14 am

That should be taught in every school. Driver's ed is available, even though some kids will not have a vehicle to drive. Why not teach firearms safety?

My seven year old knows enough to get the hell out of Dodge if any of his friends display a firearm. Around us, he knows not to touch a firearm unless he can see that it is empty, no mag, slide back and the breech is visible and empty. He has his own pistol which is locked in a safe, shoots it twice a month and the kicker, he cleans it too.

Teaching children firearm safety is good, cheap insurance against a tragedy that at best, will leave someone permanently disabled.
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searpqx
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Good call up here. Since virtually every home has a firearm of some sort, and there's no guarantee that the kids are getting proper training at home, putting it in the schools seems logical.

Alaska's unique subsistence lifestyle often means kids are firing guns long before they are driving. . . . to survive in some cases.

As long as its purely voluntary, I think its a great idea. Juneau is a place where it'd be well received, and as you note, there's a need. But even in Juneau (or maybe especially in Juneau), there are plenty of folks that want nothing to do with guns, and they should have the option to opt out of it. And lets face it, Juneau (especially Mendenhall Valley) isn't exactly a hotbed of subsistence existence. Even back in the 70s I had friends that were born, raised and grew to adulthood in Juneau without ever touching a gun.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 7):

 checkmark 

I'm sure it voluntary . . . I can't imagine the instructor would be able to get away with mandating firearms classes in public school . . .

I don't think we Anchorageites are in desperate need of the class for subsistence issues either. I haven't shot any animal in my back yard ever . . . I have occasionally had to shoot a halibut though . . .  biggrin 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
searpqx
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
I haven't shot any animal in my back yard ever . . . I have occasionally had to shoot a halibut though . . .

Oh yeah, nothing worse than bringing a 80+ lb halibut into the back of boat and having it go wild.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
lowrider
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
I'm sure it voluntary . . . I can't imagine the instructor would be able to get away with mandating firearms classes in public school . . .

But should it be voluntary? Looking at applications down here in the lower 48, 10 to 12 hours of instruction could go a long way towards reducing accidental gun deaths. Even if the kids never see another gun again, they will come away with a little bit of useful knowledge and will be better informed on gun issues. If I had to choose between sex class and gun class for my kids, I would send them to gun class.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
But should it be voluntary?

I think so . . . I can see the law suits flying right now if the program were mandatory. Treat it like any other 'elective' subject that is not part of the core curriculum.

I agree - especially here in Alaska - that kids should have a rudimentary understanding of guns/gun safety, but it's not something that can mandated by a school district.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
If I had to choose between sex class and gun class for my kids, I would send them to gun class.

I'd send them to both  biggrin .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
stlgph
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
If I had to choose between sex class and gun class for my kids, I would send them to gun class.

interesting mix! haha

Quoting GrandTheftAero (Reply 4):
Firearm Basics would prevent crap like this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15913140

Teen kills best friend with stolen gun
Youth faces manslaughter, theft charges
The Associated Press

and then we get to the question of....is it a matter of firearm basics or is it a matter or of plain common sense?

anybody with the nerve to steal a gun with a patrol car isn't going to be rushing into firearm safety or probably even knows anything about firearm safety.

reply #6 summed it up best.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 6):
My seven year old knows enough to get the hell out of Dodge if any of his friends display a firearm.

i'm not trying to show any disrespect to the guy that was killed, but it could also be said that Miamiair's son knows enough to get out of there because he was taught firearm basics.
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AirCop
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
I'm sure it voluntary . . . I can't imagine the instructor would be able to get away with mandating firearms classes in public school . . .

The state legislature here in Arizona was presented a bill by one of its members several years back to do just that, expect it was madatory firearms training. Needless to say it died on the House floor, for two reasons, mandatory, and the number of new mandated hours of teaching of certain subjects as a result of No child left behind.
 
avt007
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:42 am

BTW, my own kids have had firearm safety training. My son does target shooting with me. So the training is necessary, but I want it drilled into them just in case they are around a firearm when I'm not present. We all know if you teach them young, it sticks with them.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:43 am

Gun Safety is offered through our local middle school here in Dillingham AK. We use some state funds that come from the state that are used at the local discression. We offer gun safety and water safety programs. As both (with the combination of alcohol) are the main killers of people under 25 in rural Alaska.
Keep in mind where I live guns are tools, not weapons, toys, etc. They are tools, no better way to describe them. We depend on them for our subsistence activities and personal safety from bears.
 
piercey
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Queso (Thread starter):

Anybody have a problem with this? Why can't we do this in ALL schools?

Firearms training in Compton... Think about that for a minute  duck 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):


Alaska's unique subsistence lifestyle often means kids are firing guns long before they are driving. . . . to survive in some cases.

 checkmark 

Couldn't see it in CLE, but I'd take one. Mind you, I own a crossbow and know enough, but I'm a blond with guns.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
lowrider
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 16):
Firearms training in Compton... Think about that for a minute

I think that topic is already being covered there. This would only help prevent accidental shootings
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kmh1956
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
This would only help prevent accidental shootings

And make sure that the deliberate shootings are more accurate. Sorry, we don't carry guns in Bermuda...not even the cops....and I hope that never changes. That's not to say that guns don't get in here; they do, but it's the criminal element who have them and shootings are rare.
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lowrider
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 18):
And make sure that the deliberate shootings are more accurate. Sorry, we don't carry guns in Bermuda...not even the cops....and I hope that never changes. That's not to say that guns don't get in here; they do, but it's the criminal element who have them and shootings are rare.

There is a difference between training to handle firearms safely and marksman training. I will assume you are simply unfamiliar with the difference between the two. I am glad that you have gun rules that work for you in Bermuda. Congratulations. The US is a little different from Bermuda in a few small ways. Therefore please excuse us if we do things differently.
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miamiair
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 18):
And make sure that the deliberate shootings are more accurate

There is a very large difference between firearms safety and marksmanship. That is a problem we are facing here with the Haitian gangs and their drive by spray and pray shootings; more innocents get hit than their intended targets.

I am firmly rooted in the belief that educating people about safety is a cheap measure, when compared to indigant people with gunshot wounds taxing the medical resources of our cities.

Here in Miami we pay an extra .005 sales tax to fund the county hospital because the amount of money blown on indigent care.

That being said, I would rather focus on the thread topic than firearm crime. Start a thread on it.

[Edited 2006-11-28 01:11:58]
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aloges
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:06 am

Well, in the case of Alaska and other somewhat savage parts, e.g. New Jersey  duck , I can see the point. But for the rest of the time, I'd rather have them make guns childproof than children gunproof.

Never forget that a gun is designed to be a deadly weapon, it should always be regarded as such. Before teaching every child how to handle a gun - which a child should hardly ever do - we should make sure every child knows about electrics safety, sexuality, fire safety, traffic safety and so on.

Owning a gun shouldn't be a crime, but there need to be drastic penalties on any lack of gun safety such as keeping a loaded weapon in a glove box.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
If I had to choose between sex class and gun class for my kids, I would send them to gun class.

Please, do think again about that... or else: "Dad, I didn't have a period... umm..."  Wink
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ilikeyyc
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:07 am

I think it is a great idea and the program should be adopted elsewhere.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
is it a matter of firearm basics or is it a matter or of plain common sense?

Common sense isn't common any more, thanks to all of the personal injury lawyers out there. If the kid who pulled the trigger knew anything about firearms safety (even if he did steal the gun) he would have known how to operate the slide to see into the chamber.
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lowrider
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):
Please, do think again about that... or else: "Dad, I didn't have a period... umm..."

LOL. No, I was just trying to make a point about all the things we find time to teach in schools, surely we can find a few hours for this as well. If something has to give, well, I think there are somethings that are better taught in the home.

In that exact situation, we could have a little father/daughter course called: The Shotgun, Advantages, Limitations, and Its Place in the Marriage Ceremony.
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DL787932ER
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RE: Principal Puts Firearm Basics Into Curriculum.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:23 am

One minor point:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):

Owning a gun shouldn't be a crime, but there need to be drastic penalties on any lack of gun safety such as keeping a loaded weapon in a glove box.

I've had extensive discussions with my German friends and business associates about the differences between U.S. and German gun laws - I know there's a large difference. But in many states in the U.S., it's perfectly legal and normal to keep a weapon in your car.
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