centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:54 am

Well the day has come.

It has taken longer than they planned. But Vista is out.

I can't seem to watch the launch videos and still not sure of what is the big benefit to a company.

CNN wrote that many companies will not make the change to Vista until it has been tested and much of the software they use is made for Vista.

I am most excited about Office 07. It lookes much much better than the version I use (2004). I look forward to using it next year.

Big kicker....
1) Can someone explain the big differences between Vista and Mac OSX 10.5 (Due in January 07)?
2) What are the big advantages of Vista over XP? (I know there is an install security to prevent spyware etc...)

I personally will not be using Vista anytime soon. I am a Mac user. However, when I get my new Macbook with OSX 10.5 installed in the spring, I am considering parallels and running Vista just for kicks and giggles.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
1) Can someone explain the big differences between Vista and Mac OSX 10.5 (Due in January 07)?

Vista retains the Windows legacy, so many zombies will buy it with no consideration of alternatives.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Vista retains the Windows legacy, so many zombies will buy it with no consideration of alternatives.

Until Apple allows OS X on non-Apple hardware, and until Linux gets enough support to make it viable for the masses, there really IS no alternative for those who like the hardware they already have.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
so many zombies will buy it with no consideration of alternatives

Interesting. My Brother (IT Consultant) recently moved a school's whole system which was made of both Macs and Windows onto a Linux system that is easier to maintain than either an All mac or All Windows system. Can't remember what it is called but the school took to it. One office that he supports also took to it replacing their Windows XP with linux. My brother is a Mac addict.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:47 am

Vista is out?

For businesses, yes.

For consumers, January 30th.

From what I was reading on MS's website.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
I am most excited about Office 07. It lookes much much better than the version I use (2004)

You mean 2003, right?

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
explain the big differences between Vista and Mac OSX 10.5

Vista is made by Microsoft.

OSX is made by Apple.

That's the big difference.

No, seriously, Microsoft's use of proprietary code throughout their O/S is quote annoying - it makes stability a difficult thing to predict, and really limits the development world in what they can really achieve in a Win environment compared what they could potentially achieve if they could integrate better with Windows.

OSX on the other hand has a Unix foundation; an OS that is renound for it's flexibility and stability. Although Apple also use proprietary code for their OSX shell (which is what it essentially is), Unix allows for a greater depth of open source development and, in my opinion, we consequently get better software that can do more, quicker.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
lehpron
Posts: 6846
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:47 am

Vista for consumers is planned to be an all 3D operating system (don't ask me why), which means it will take longer to load on a slower computer. I know, within a year, what we call fast computers will become mainstream.

According to microsoft's website, the installation space alone is 15 Gigabytes!

I don't have the space or the patients to change over. I plan on waiting.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 6):
don't have the space or the patients to change over. I plan on waiting.

The problem that you've got with waiting is that, eventually, you're way behind. Unless all you do is simple word-processing and internet browsing, you NEED to keep up.

As an I.T guy, I often tell people to wait a few months, 6 months or so to let the stuff roll out and see how it's going to react.

People have had MONTHS and perhaps even well over a year to prepare for vista. I've been slowly upgrading my computer for FSX, as well as for Vista, which made it less of a transition for me.

The longer you wait, the more costly it'll be upgrading!!!!

But, i do see your point!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
panam330
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:45 pm

I currently use Mac OSX Tiger, but I am seriously considering switching back to Windows after a more than 3 year hiatus. I love my Mac to death, but there are many programs that run much more efficiently on a Windows platform. Should I wait for Vista to 'mature,' or just purchase a high-end system (Core 2 Duo, etc.) that runs XP, and can run Vista in the future? I won't lie, I also want a computer that can handle FSX, and handle it well  Wink.
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 5):
You mean 2003, right?

Sounds like you are thinking of the PC (Windows) version of Office; the current of MS Office is v11 (MS Office 2003)

>>He said he is using a Mac, so if he is running Office:Mac, the most current version is 2004:

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/product...004/office2004.aspx?pid=office2004
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8):

Are you running an Intel Mac?

If so, just wait till Vista comes out and run it off your Mac under boot Camp or better using Parallels. That is what I plan on doing. I have been waiting for the Intel on Mac to mature and then a fully native Intel OSX. That is 10.5. I will have both running on my new computer.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 8):
there are many programs that run much more efficiently on a Windows platform

What programs? I've found all of mine to run best on MacOS.
 
Chi-town
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 1:29 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:34 pm

I wouldnt buy it for awhile until they have worked out the kinks
 
panam330
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 11):
What programs? I've found all of mine to run best on MacOS.

Well, not necessarily more efficient on either OS, but being much more accustomed to the layouts/functions of particular programs like Photoshop, or Office. They're very similar on both systems, but I tend to favor the Windows-based versions. That, and I want my FSX  Wink.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 2):

Until Apple allows OS X on non-Apple hardware, there really IS no alternative for those who like the hardware they already have.

Not really a valid argument considering that the system requirements for Vista demand the majority of consumers to buy new hardware anyway. The majority of home users do not upgrade a system over its life so the options are:

1) Run the non-Aero version of Vista, essentially just XP Service Pack 3
2) Purchase a new Aero-capable Vista PC
3) Purchase a new Apple with 10.4/10.5

For many home users, OS X can do virtually everything Windows can, with much less headache to boot...

As an aside, my definition of home users are general productivity users. These days I would consider game users their own niche, who clearly have it better on the Windows platform. But again, what fraction of the market is tricked out gamers, engineers running Autocad, or accountants running Oracle? A great deal of the home user population "suffers" for the "versatility" of Windows.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
Interesting. My Brother (IT Consultant) recently moved a school's whole system which was made of both Macs and Windows onto a Linux system that is easier to maintain than either an All mac or All Windows system

One big advantage for a client like a school is the simple fact that Linux distributions have essentially no licensing concerns. I know Edubuntu is popular for educational use.

Given that student terminals don't require compatibility with the latest and greatest consumer electronics, I do wish more education institutions would adopt Linux for no other reason than cost efficiency.

Linux will only be adopted by home users when the likes of Dell, HP, and Sony begin shipping it. Given the fact that many Linux kernels are already very well developed, a home/consumer version of Linux could likely be compiled at a fraction of the resources being poured into Vista.

Not holding my breath, however...
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:49 pm

Photoshop is identical in both systems except for where you might find info about the product.

Office on the other hand is different on the two platforms but not so much that you can't figure it out.

Note: The version of Office released today is the first time MS released a new version of Office on Windows before Mac. Usually the mac gets Office then Windows gets it. We got 2000, then 2004. Windows had 2003 and now 2007. Got to say the new version of office looks good. I only use Excel and Word (powerpoint is not good enough...Keynote is my thing).

FSX...It is designed for the Windows platform. But why buy a windows machine when you can just put windows on your mac and use Boot camp. It will be just as stable or better than on a "for windows" platform.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
Not really a valid argument considering that the system requirements for Vista demand the majority of consumers to buy new hardware anyway.

It IS a valid argument. If Apple wants to 'help' the populace, they would allow their operating system to be installed on non-proprietary hardware.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:51 pm

What is windows?  Wink



Fillfillfillfillfillfillfillfillfillfillfill
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 16):
It IS a valid argument. If Apple wants to 'help' the populace, they would allow their operating system to be installed on non-proprietary hardware.

Apple's goal is make money building the best computers possible. They aren't trying to "help humanity." That's the Linux camp.

Please explain what it matters if OS X ships on a Dell, HP, or Sony versus Apple hardware?
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
Please explain what it matters if OS X ships on a Dell, HP, or Sony versus Apple hardware?

Becuase Apple is saying that to run their software, they have to buy an Apple computer. Sure, the Mac can now run OSX, Windows, and Linux natively, that's not the point; as that wouldl require the buyer to ONLY buy a Mac. Since OSX now runs on Intel hardware, it should be easier for homebuilders to put what they want into the computer, instead of having to rely on what Apple will allow them to put in and pay for shipping, etc. Also, the 'customizable' hardware selections for building a Mac are rather limited, and Apple should recognize the homebuilders and publish a non-Apple hardware dependant OS so that they, and smaller PC-building companies, can provide OSX as an option for the end-users.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 13):
That, and I want my FSX Wink.

Ditto... the only thing I miss about switching to a Mac is not being able to use FS. Go the Boot Camp route, though. If the Mac has good hardware, it should be able to run it as well if not better than a similar PC.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
For many home users, OS X can do virtually everything Windows can, with much less headache to boot...

Very true. I think that people are afraid to make the switch, but several of my friends have seen my mac, and switched over (with a little co-ercion) for their new comps and absolutely love them. The best way to describe it is, things just work. For example, I tried to plug my external hard drive into a flat mate's laptop to share some files. The mac reads the drive with no problem, just pop in the cable. The PC (running XP) confuses the drive for a printer, because he plugged it into the USB port that the printer was normally hooked to. The result: G:Cannon Deskjet, and it would not map the hard drive.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 16):
It IS a valid argument. If Apple wants to 'help' the populace, they would allow their operating system to be installed on non-proprietary hardware.

That goes against their business model. They make money by selling the hardware, and that hardware is one of their man selling points. It's superior hardware to the average PC you get from Dell, HP, etc. I'm not saying PC hardware is worse in general - if you configure it right or build your own, the hardware's performance should be identical. However, when the average user buys a Mac, they know that, not only is the OS stable, but the hardware is solid.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 19):
Since OSX now runs on Intel hardware, it should be easier for homebuilders to put what they want into the computer, instead of having to rely on what Apple will allow them to put in and pay for shipping, etc. Also, the 'customizable' hardware selections for building a Mac are rather limited, and Apple should recognize the homebuilders and publish a non-Apple hardware dependant OS so that they, and smaller PC-building companies, can provide OSX as an option for the end-users.

Who are you to say what Apple should do with their product line? If Apple were to do that, it would likely be disastrous to their core business.

And to repeat myself, individuals who build and customize their own computer are now an exceedingly small niche. The vast majority of consumers purchase a compute from a reputable brand name, they never upgrade it, and they simply want the darn thing to work.

In that regard, the seamless hardware-software integration of the Apple line is a distinct advantage for general home users
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Who are you to say what Apple should do with their product line?

Who's to say that Delta should or should not take the merger offer? No one, but people still do it anyway. It's the nature of a forum, and a forum's participants.

Quoting Cba (Reply 20):
However, when the average user buys a Mac, they know that, not only is the OS stable, but the hardware is solid.

They have to KNOW that it's solid first, but that's only learnt through experience. Your first time buyer won't know that.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:39 am

Mwahahaha.

We attempted a test upgrade today on a standalone workstation, XP SP2 to Vista.

Bluescreen during the first reboot and every attempt since.

Moved to a different workstation to eliminate hardware probs. Same thing.

The culprit? Microsoft's very own fingerprint reader.

Well done, Microsoft. Good level of integration testing you did there. Perhaps when you've actually got a clue, I'll consider moving my business infrastructure to your pathetic excuse for an enterprise platform.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
airbus3801
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 23):
Mwahahaha.

We attempted a test upgrade today on a standalone workstation, XP SP2 to Vista.

Bluescreen during the first reboot and every attempt since.

Moved to a different workstation to eliminate hardware probs. Same thing.

The culprit? Microsoft's very own fingerprint reader.

Well done, Microsoft. Good level of integration testing you did there. Perhaps when you've actually got a clue, I'll consider moving my business infrastructure to your pathetic excuse for an enterprise platform.

This shows how Microsoft is a poor thought out system and I don't see how it could capture the masses when so many people experience problems like this on a day to day basis. A vast majority of computer users have just come to the conlusion that all computers screw up like Windows does all the time, but when they switch to Mac or Linux, like I have, it is a completly different world and one free of headache. I got my iMac last Christmas and I have not had one single problem with it. I have never had to call support, I have never had to use the go back feature before something screwed up, I have never had to clean out viruses. It has been problem free. I have heard other large business reports on their Vista problems already and Vista does not look like any large change besides visually from Windows XP.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
They have to KNOW that it's solid first, but that's only learnt through experience. Your first time buyer won't know that.

Yes, it's better known through experience, however a little research before buying shows that, if you can live without a small set of applications (which is growing smaller and smaller, aside from FS, there's nothing that I haven't been able to use because it's not available for Mac), Mac hardware and the OS is far superior.

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 24):
I have heard other large business reports on their Vista problems already and Vista does not look like any large change besides visually from Windows XP.

Just yet another face lift of the Windows clown mask that sits on top of an ever aging MSDOS. Yes, new featues and functionality have been added over the years as technology progresses, however it's fundamentally the same core as Windows 3.1 15 years ago, a GUI for DOS.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 25):
Just yet another face lift of the Windows clown mask that sits on top of an ever aging MSDOS. Yes, new featues and functionality have been added over the years as technology progresses, however it's fundamentally the same core as Windows 3.1 15 years ago, a GUI for DOS.

XP is based on the NT kernel, which while both NT and DOS were made by MS, they are different by design and functionality. Also, since the NT kernel has control of the computer, DOS has to be run virtually.

Since that's out of the way, it would be much more fair to compare 3.1 and DOS versus the others. For example: OSX, while made in the last 5 years, it is still a kernel-and-shell combo since the nice visual stuff is really just a shell sitting on top of a BSD Unix variation, as well as GNOME or KDE, which is the same thing on the Linux side. The only difference between these three is that you can switch to multiple terminals during the same session in OSX and Linux, whereas, you cannot in DOS. In this case, yes, OSX and Linux, do beat DOS.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
splitzer
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:37 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:15 am

The problems and issues described within Windows are a product of it's own success. Like another poster mentioned, Windows just tries to do to much to an acceptable standard. For all MacOS X is easier to use, more reliable etc, you must realise this is only so because it is in essence a niche product - the hardware base for the OS is far smaller than Windows, and more tightly controlled thus it suffers less 'bloat' and quirks in order to cover nearly every hardware/software possibility etc.

In essence, if somehow, MacOS was redesigned to be a 'Windows killer' and overnight became the most widely used OS on the market, we'd all be complaining that it was slow and suffered the same flaws as Windows.

Sometimes I feel a touch sorry for Microsoft (then I realise how much they make!) - they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Splitzer (Reply 27):
In essence, if somehow, MacOS was redesigned to be a 'Windows killer' and overnight became the most widely used OS on the market, we'd all be complaining that it was slow and suffered the same flaws as Windows.

What about Linux then? It runs on any regular old PC hardware, and is vastly more stable than Windows.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 23):
The culprit? Microsoft's very own fingerprint reader.

Well done, Microsoft. Good level of integration testing you did there.

You need to upgrade your fingerprints.
 
solarix
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:56 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:37 am

Vista kicks ass but I am going to wait a bit for more 64-bit support. Many of my USB to serial devices do not work under Vista yet.
I've got XP all pimped out, so I will be sticking with it for a few more months. But I do like what I see in Vista and it runs very fast even on my slow 2.9 scoring system.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
splitzer
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:37 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):
What about Linux then? It runs on any regular old PC hardware, and is vastly more stable than Windows.

And in many ways is still a niche product - not as wide a range of hardware fully supported, some 3rd party written drivers are very buggy or unreliable, many software applications unavailable (I admit alternatives are available) and the truth of the matter is, Linux just isn't ready for the mass market yet - unless you know what you're doing, you can very often end up with a system that isn't as functional and/or reliable as a system configured with Windows.

You can argue along finer details, the way I see it, nothing comes close to the ranger of support of hardware and software for Windows, and you can't expect a product like that to work flawlessly 100% of the time.
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:21 am

"That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
-MS Tech Support

Quoting Splitzer (Reply 31):
And in many ways is still a niche product - not as wide a range of hardware fully supported, some 3rd party written drivers are very buggy or unreliable, many software applications unavailable (I admit alternatives are available) and the truth of the matter is, Linux just isn't ready for the mass market yet - unless you know what you're doing, you can very often end up with a system that isn't as functional and/or reliable as a system configured with Windows.

You can argue along finer details, the way I see it, nothing comes close to the ranger of support of hardware and software for Windows, and you can't expect a product like that to work flawlessly 100% of the time.

What hardware are you talking about? I can't think of a key hardware component, like a hard drive, motherboard, CPU, media drive, video card that will not work on both Windows and Linux, and potentially Mac. I've been using plenty of add-on hardware products with my Mac, including PC RAM (cost me half as much as Apple's inflated price), and have yet to have a hiccup.
 
splitzer
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:37 am

RE: Windows Vista Released

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:34 am

Mainly peripherals like scanners, game controllers, graphics tablets etc (Yes you can get many of those devices for Mac or Linux, but still not as wide a range as for Windows). I don't think I've seen a Windows system be fussy over a piece of RAM (unless itself was damaged) or anything like that. But for example, there are some very cheap motherboards from not so reliable manufactures out there that will give you problems. Since all basic Apple hardware comes from more reputable manufactures, and is basically controlled by Apple, there tends to be less hardware faults (which can get passed off as a problem with the OS).

In essence, Apple control all the hardware that runs MacOS. It seems almost any unknown manufacture can start churning out hardware (and software!) for Windows - which at the end of the day causes problems that get blamed on Windows.

I'm not arguing that MacOS doesn't have merit, it's just to compare it to Windows is like Apples to Oranges. Windows is the age old 'Jack of all trades'.

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