dragon-wings
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Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:41 am

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told the White House before he resigned last month the Bush administration's strategy in Iraq was not working and he proposed changes, including possible troop reductions, The New York Times reported Saturday.

"In my view it is time for a major adjustment. Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough," Rumsfeld said in the classified memo, dated Nov. 6.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16008286/

I guess he did/does not have the balls to say this in public.
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bushpilot
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Dragon-wings (Thread starter):
I guess he did/does not have the balls to say this in public.

Keep in mind that this is a systemic issue. Powell didnt or doesnt have much to say in public either. As well as plenty of other staffers from plenty of other past Presidents. It is now 30 years after the fact where we get info from McNamara. There is in most cases a fierce loyalty to the President whoever it may be among is top staffers. Or else they wouldnt do that job. Those jobs are probably the most demanding, with little pay compared to what they would get in the private sector, with huge public scrutiny. They arent in the job for the money. They are in that position because the President of the United States asked them to be.
Washington is a town of leaks. It wouldnt surprise me a bit if his people were the ones that leaked this classified memo. One doesnt need to come out publicly to tell thier side of the story in that town, they can do it quietly through the media, and then not have to answer questions on thier statement. It is a cowardly way to go about it, but that is the game.
 
cairo
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:19 am

I think president Bush has a pathological problem in admitting mistakes, and that Karl Rove's evil genius prohibits the admissions of errors in public. But, we are getting closer and closer to the de facto admission that this whole occupation of Iraq was managed in gigantic error.

Eventually, years later, as in Vietnam, even the SecDef and other admin officials may be able to admit that everything about invading Iraq was wrong.

This is a good step forward. Bush has 2 years to make progress or I don't see how the Republicans have a hope for 2008. He can't say he wasn't warned.

Cairo

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 1):
with little pay compared to what they would get in the private sector, with huge public scrutiny. They arent in the job for the money.

You sure about that? Who else could order so much Tamiflu, besides the SecDef, for the mysterious 'bird flu' attack?
http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/31/news/newsmakers/fortune_rumsfeld/
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:19 am

If it took Rummy this long to figfure it out then it simply cemets the fact that he should have been gone long ago.

Where the hell does everyone think PotUS was getting his "Iraq Strategy". . . . well, I know the obvious answer is he puilled it outta his ass as it appears to be correct . . . but I assure you it was from Rice and Rumsfeld both of whom have done shit to gain a stronghold in Iraq (and elsewhere in Rice's case).
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rjpieces
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
but I assure you it was from Rice and Rumsfeld both of whom have done shit to gain a stronghold in Iraq (and elsewhere in Rice's case).

What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bushpilot
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?

I dont want to speak for ANCFlyer, but I would venture to say Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Syria-Lebanon just to name a few.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Where the hell does everyone think PotUS was getting his "Iraq Strategy"

Dick Cheney. He's the real architect of the Iraq policy.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
I dont want to speak for ANCFlyer, but I would venture to say Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Syria-Lebanon just to name a few.

Rice has been a very passive Secretary of State. The decisive dynamics in Iraq have been primarily political in nature, rather than military, for at least two years now. The State Department has failed to have any meaningful impact on the critical social, economic, and political factors that shape events in Iraq.

These areas of concern are clearly the purview of the State Department, not the DoD. Rice has failed to get that job done just as she failed to give the President sound advise about the anemic WMD claims when she was National Security Adviser. Rice is not there to make policy decisions and tough choices. She's there, like many others in the Bush Administration, to tell the President how wonderful it all is despite reality.
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baroque
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 2):
Eventually, years later, as in Vietnam, even the SecDef and other admin officials may be able to admit that everything about invading Iraq was wrong.

It looks as if a mild attack of the McNamaras is coming early!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
If it took Rummy this long to figure it out then it simply cements the fact that he should have been gone long ago.

Well, yes, but WADR that is not new ANC. Come to think of it, only Rummy going on TV and admitting he is an arrogant idiot would be new, most of the rest we know (I missed sadistic).

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?

I dont want to speak for ANCFlyer, but I would venture to say Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Syria-Lebanon just to name a few.

Disappointing answer there, I thought "elsewhere in Rice's case" was about to open the door to a whole new world.

Rummy is bad, but Rice seems to me to be even worse. She seems to spend very little time thinking about anything and a heck of a lot telling others what they should be doing. I suspect that the moment she starts, half the world is listening only to be sure what they DONT want to do. For a supposed diplomat she is a disaster. Bring back Powell would be a good idea.

Rice seems to have such a faultless cv it makes you wonder. Someone in Denver should look out her PhD thesis - assuming there is one - and just see how insightful it is, just knowing the topic would be an advance!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?

She is the SecState, besides Iraq, she is responsible for Foreign Policy world-wide. Our foreign policy isn't the most spectacular in the world.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?

I dont want to speak for ANCFlyer, but I would venture to say Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Syria-Lebanon just to name a few.

 checkmark 

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 6):

Dick Cheney. He's the real architect of the Iraq policy.

Likely a major player. But I believe Rummy was the genesis of the whole thing, and although Cheney provided input, it was Rummy's policies at the DoD that everyone followed . . . remember, if you went against Rummy you got fired.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 5):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
What do you mean by "elsewhere in Rice's case"?

I dont want to speak for ANCFlyer, but I would venture to say Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Syria-Lebanon just to name a few.

Disappointing answer there, I thought "elsewhere in Rice's case" was about to open the door to a whole new world.

Why disappointing? The answer is accurate.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Someone in Denver should look out her PhD thesis - assuming there is one - and just see how insightful it is, just knowing the topic would be an advance!

There is a PhD thesis. So why the question? Why the accusation? I don't think Rice is particilarly spectacular, but don't doubt her creds. At the same time, I have always maintained that simply having book knowledge doesn't make one smart. Her problem - one of many - is the LACK of real world experience . . . so what she served a couple tours overseas as a lessor diplomat? So what she has a PhD? So what she's been experienced in office jobs? Experience is the best educator. Like my friend Captain Kirk says "We Learn By Doing".
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
baroque
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Like my friend Captain Kirk says "We Learn By Doing".

Indeed we do. Perhaps less in the US, but a great deal can be learned by looking at some PhD theses. Just curious to know what she wrote. Apart from anything else, it usually shows what people do under considerable stress. That itself can be a useful measure. The reason I wrote "less in the US" is because the thesis in the US is a smaller part of the deal, in Aus it is 100%.

It was not an accusation, just curiosity. A number of doctoral courses in the US do not have a thesis component, although I think all the PhD programs do. However, always be prepared for surprise and the Spanish inquisition!

Why disappointing the meaning of elsewhere? She seems to contribute so little that is positive that I wondered if there was going to be some great revelation of what the heck she is doing - apart from hectoring all and sundry, and usually about the bleeding obvious.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:07 am

For those who care to read it, here's the full text of the Rumsfeld memo:

Nov. 6, 2006

SUBJECT: Iraq — Illustrative New Courses of Action

The situation in Iraq has been evolving, and U.S. forces have adjusted, over time, from major combat operations to counterterrorism, to counterinsurgency, to dealing with death squads and sectarian violence. In my view it is time for a major adjustment. Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough. Following is a range of options:


ILLUSTRATIVE OPTIONS

Above the Line: (Many of these options could and, in a number of cases, should be done in combination with others)

Publicly announce a set of benchmarks agreed to by the Iraqi Government and the U.S. — political, economic and security goals — to chart a path ahead for the Iraqi government and Iraqi people (to get them moving) and for the U.S. public (to reassure them that progress can and is being made).

Significantly increase U.S. trainers and embeds, and transfer more U.S. equipment to Iraqi Security forces (ISF), to further accelerate their capabilities by refocusing the assignment of some significant portion of the U.S. troops currently in Iraq.

Initiate a reverse embeds program, like the Korean Katusas, by putting one or more Iraqi soldiers with every U.S. and possibly Coalition squad, to improve our units’ language capabilities and cultural awareness and to give the Iraqis experience and training with professional U.S. troops.

Aggressively beef up the Iraqi MOD and MOI, and other Iraqi ministries critical to the success of the ISF — the Iraqi Ministries of Finance, Planning, Health, Criminal Justice, Prisons, etc. — by reaching out to U.S. military retirees and Reserve/National Guard volunteers (i.e., give up on trying to get other USG Departments to do it.)

Conduct an accelerated draw-down of U.S. bases. We have already reduced from 110 to 55 bases. Plan to get down to 10 to 15 bases by April 2007, and to 5 bases by July 2007.

Retain high-end SOF capability and necessary support structure to target Al Qaeda, death squads, and Iranians in Iraq, while drawing down all other Coalition forces, except those necessary to provide certain key enablers for the ISF.

Initiate an approach where U.S. forces provide security only for those provinces or cities that openly request U.S. help and that actively cooperate, with the stipulation being that unless they cooperate fully, U.S. forces would leave their province.

Stop rewarding bad behavior, as was done in Fallujah when they pushed in reconstruction funds, and start rewarding good behavior. Put our reconstruction efforts in those parts of Iraq that are behaving, and invest and create havens of opportunity to reward them for their good behavior. As the old saying goes, “If you want more of something, reward it; if you want less of something, penalize it.” No more reconstruction assistance in areas where there is violence.

Position substantial U.S. forces near the Iranian and Syrian borders to reduce infiltration and, importantly, reduce Iranian influence on the Iraqi Government.

Withdraw U.S. forces from vulnerable positions — cities, patrolling, etc. — and move U.S. forces to a Quick Reaction Force (QRF) status, operating from within Iraq and Kuwait, to be available when Iraqi security forces need assistance.

Begin modest withdrawals of U.S. and Coalition forces (start “taking our hand off the bicycle seat”), so Iraqis know they have to pull up their socks, step up and take responsibility for their country.

Provide money to key political and religious leaders (as Saddam Hussein did), to get them to help us get through this difficult period.

Initiate a massive program for unemployed youth. It would have to be run by U.S. forces, since no other organization could do it.

Announce that whatever new approach the U.S. decides on, the U.S. is doing so on a trial basis. This will give us the ability to readjust and move to another course, if necessary, and therefore not “lose.”

Recast the U.S. military mission and the U.S. goals (how we talk about them) — go minimalist.

Below the Line (less attractive options):

Continue on the current path.

Move a large fraction of all U.S. Forces into Baghdad to attempt to control it.

Increase Brigade Combat Teams and U.S. forces in Iraq substantially.

Set a firm withdrawal date to leave. Declare that with Saddam gone and Iraq a sovereign nation, the Iraqi people can govern themselves. Tell Iran and Syria to stay out.

Assist in accelerating an aggressive federalism plan, moving towards three separate states — Sunni, Shia, and Kurd.

Try a Dayton-like process.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
It was not an accusation, just curiosity.

 checkmark 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
However, always be prepared for surprise and the Spanish inquisition!

I don't think either applies to Condi.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 10):

I read this earlier this morning, and thought to myself . . . "self, where was this plan two years ago?" Now I have to wonder to myself . . . "self, who REALLY wrote this". I don't think there's any way Rumsfeld broke from his typical autocratic uber-arrogance and decided to go this direction.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Thom@s
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:22 am

I don't think Rumsfeld took his job seriously...


Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Someone in Denver should look out her PhD thesis - assuming there is one - and just see how insightful it is, just knowing the topic would be an advance!

It's pretty easy to access; I've looked it up and read the first few pages...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bushpilot
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 2):
You sure about that? Who else could order so much Tamiflu, besides the SecDef, for the mysterious 'bird flu' attack?

While I am not surprised by shady dealings. My point was that a CEO overseeing the budget, number of employees, etc. Would be compensated at a much higher level than what cabinet members make.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Bring back Powell would be a good idea.

YES, and make the man Commander in Chief. Give him keys to the white house, order up Air Force One, stock Camp David, and lets see what he can do. I think we would be living in a very different country and world were Colin Powell leader of the free world.
 
baroque
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:23 pm

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 14):
YES, and make the man Commander in Chief. Give him keys to the white house, order up Air Force One, stock Camp David, and lets see what he can do. I think we would be living in a very different country and world were Colin Powell leader of the free world.

 checkmark 

I suspect the idea might have been put to him in 2003, and now the time may have passed, but if it was thought about, it was a better idea than many!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Donald Rumsfeld's Memo Urged Iraq Shift

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 14):
I think we would be living in a very different country and world were Colin Powell leader of the free world.

 checkmark 

Too bad Alma didn't want to be First Lady . . . .

Powell would make a hell of a PotUS.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
I suspect the idea might have been put to him in 2003, and now the time may have passed, but if it was thought about, it was a better idea than many!

And earlier . . . many grass roots movements appeared supporting Powell's run for the White House. Turned down flat by Gen Powell. Too bad. He'd have had my vote.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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