bravo45
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Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:12 am

I missed the interview the day it was to be aired, but just stumbled on this:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl..._east/july-dec06/carter_11-28.html
The audio download is 4.36MB. The streaming video quality is quite good.

Here he is on CNN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B48emCK2JcA&eurl=

I may actually get the book. Its just that my 'To Read' list is pretty large right now.

[Edited 2006-12-03 22:23:21]
 
cairo
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:12 am

Jimmy Carter is the only president in modern times who is totally honest, he does not do or say anything based on opinion polls.

He is also of course a Nobel Laureate, a nuclear physicist, a devoted Christian, and the only US persident who is an expert on the Middle East.

His words are exactly right.

Cairo
 
rjpieces
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
He is also of course a Nobel Laureate, a nuclear physicist, a devoted Christian, and the only US persident who is an expert on the Middle East.

Self-proclaimed expert on the Middle East does not make him one. There is a reason why Jimmy Carter was a one-term President who went down in history as one of our worst. There is also a reason why he is basically ignored today. If Bill Clinton were to speak saying the stuff he says, it would be a major news story.

I'm currently taking a class on the modern American presidency. We were learning about Carter's years the other day and the professor said something that I thought quite funny/telling:

Carter was the type of President where if you were an important person in California and got a call saying "Come to Washington, the President wants to have dinner with you", the person would probably respond "Oh no thanks, it's too much of a hassle". That's the type of President Carter was.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Superfly
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
Jimmy Carter is the only president in modern times who is totally honest, he does not do or say anything based on opinion polls.

He is also of course a Nobel Laureate, a nuclear physicist, a devoted Christian, and the only US persident who is an expert on the Middle East.

His words are exactly right.

 checkmark 
Bring back the Concorde
 
dl757md
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
Self-proclaimed expert on the Middle East does not make him one. There is a reason why Jimmy Carter was a one-term President who went down in history as one of our worst.

Yes, there is a reason Jimmy Carter was a one term president. "It's the economy stupid." Carter's efforts in the Middle East are nothing short of heroic. He did more than any other U.S. president to bring peace to the Middle East. It was his lack of attention to domestic matters that caused his defeat by Reagan. That and the failed hostage rescue attempt in Iran. He's absolutely right about the situation in Gaza and he realizes that the middle east and likely the world will never see peace until it is resolved. He's also right in that the ball is in Israel's court. They've reneged on most of the terms that have been agreed to in all the negotiations which has led to the regrettable if not predictable hostile reactions by the Palestinians. Time for them to step up and live up to the promises they've made.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
OU812
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:27 am

Carter was & still is a knucklehead.

I listened this morning on Bloomberg radio when they had Carter on . After Carter finished , a Mid-east specialist , [ who was a Democrat ] came on to discuss what carter had to say . In short he said carter had no idea what he was talking about , carter refuses to debate people that are knowledgeable regarding the mid-east . Then went on to state that Carter is not anti-simedtic but anti American !
 
halls120
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
There is a reason why Jimmy Carter was a one-term President who went down in history as one of our worst. There is also a reason why he is basically ignored today. If Bill Clinton were to speak saying the stuff he says, it would be a major news story.

 checkmark 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
Carter was the type of President where if you were an important person in California and got a call saying "Come to Washington, the President wants to have dinner with you", the person would probably respond "Oh no thanks, it's too much of a hassle". That's the type of President Carter was.

Carter's presidency was doomed from the start. He brought in a staff that was completely unschooled in the way Washington worked, and was so unpopular by 1980 that he was challenged by a fellow democrat in the primary races.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rjpieces
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
Carter's efforts in the Middle East are nothing short of heroic. He did more than any other U.S. president to bring peace to the Middle East.

What utter nonsense. What "peace" did he bring to the Middle East? A "peace treaty" with an Egyptian dictator who, instead of fighting Israel, spreads anti-semitic and anti-American propaganda? Some real durable "peace" he brought us...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
There is a reason why Jimmy Carter was a one-term President who went down in history as one of our worst.

-
his work was apparently not geared to the US public. He in the longer term will get recognized as the "prophet not seen in his own country". He was NOT one of your worst , he was one of your best
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Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
he is basically ignored today.

he is the one ex USA president who is very much given attention to in Europe and in the Arab World, and is extremely well respected. No, he is NOT ignored, not at all.
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Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
Carter's efforts in the Middle East are nothing short of heroic. He did more than any other U.S. president to bring peace to the Middle East.
--
What utter nonsense. What "peace" did he bring to the Middle East? A "peace treaty" with an Egyptian dictator who, instead of fighting Israel, spreads anti-semitic and anti-American propaganda?

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First of all, to denounce Messrs Nasr, Sadat and Mubarak as "dictator" in your way is unfair and widely beside the point. All three in fact DID have the people with them. The peace achieved by CampDavid-I is tremendous progress. It was not only that the Sina'i Peninsula came back to Egypt and that the Suez Canal (quite important to international shipping ! ) could be re-opened and extended / widened. It allowed Egypt to develop areas there into tourists-resorts of a prime order. And it allowed Egypt to repair the badly war-ravaged cities of Port-Sa'id, Isma'iliya and Su'ez and to make these cities into nice cities again. No longer horrible artillery battles along the Suez Canal, no longer that Bar-Lev-Line along the canal, no longer Israeli threats, no longer a vast part of the Egyptian budget spent on military rubbish. The CampDavid-I agreement opened the way to further developments like the peace-treaty of Jordan with Israel, the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, unthinkable before. It was the basic breakthrough. That Israeli intransigence of Messrs Netanyahu and Barak resulted in the Intifada and even in the parliamentary win of Hamas is deplorable, but with the next parliamentary elections in Palestine, even such things are subject to change.
-
 
solarix
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:38 pm

If Carter is such a Mid-East expert why did he allow some Iranian nut jobs to take control of our embassy for so long? I would have expected an expert to know how to handle a situation like that.

More hot air as usual.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting OU812 (Reply 5):
Then went on to state that Carter is not anti-simedtic but anti American !

Haha, nice 'expert' you go there.

Everyone else-
Theres no use arguing with RJpieces either. Anyone who doesnt completely and blindly support Israel on everything is a moron...
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Solarix (Reply 9):
allow some Iranian nut jobs to take control of our embassy for so long? I would have expected an expert to know how to handle a situation like that.

This hostage-taking action came as a surprise, as it looks even to "experts" in Tehran. And one attempt to liberate the hostages by force was made, but failed. To liberate hostages is always a very difficult thing. Beside the point that the collapse of Imperial Iran came surprisingly swiftly. It is fashionable in many "parts" to blame the USA for that, which is wrong as it came about due to many mistakes of the Emperor, Reza Shah Pahlevi .
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Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
an Egyptian dictator who, instead of fighting Israel, spreads anti-semitic and anti-American propaganda?

neither did Sadat nor does Mubarak spread anti-Semitic or anti-American propaganda
-
 
baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
Carter was the type of President where if you were an important person in California and got a call saying "Come to Washington, the President wants to have dinner with you", the person would probably respond "Oh no thanks, it's too much of a hassle". That's the type of President Carter was.

I lived in the US during part of the first year of the Carter reign and that is probaby close to the truth, but it was Americas loss if it is fair comment. He had a great deal to offer and to a great extent, the US was not smart enough to take what was on offer. Indeed as someone else remarked, not the first prophet in his own land.......

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 4):
He's also right in that the ball is in Israel's court. They've reneged on most of the terms that have been agreed to in all the negotiations which has led to the regrettable if not predictable hostile reactions by the Palestinians. Time for them to step up and live up to the promises they've made.

And Jimmy was the one who firmly put it there as a starter.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):

 checkmark 

I saw an interview that must have been based on the PBS one and the case argued by Carter was formidable. At least other parts of the world appreciate talent when they see it.
 
OU812
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 10):
Theres no use arguing with RJpieces either. Anyone who doesnt completely and blindly support Israel on everything is a moron...

What did it for me was when Carter sat next to Michael Moore at the Democratic National convention .
 
dl757md
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
What utter nonsense. What "peace" did he bring to the Middle East? A "peace treaty" with an Egyptian dictator who, instead of fighting Israel, spreads anti-semitic and anti-American propaganda? Some real durable "peace" he brought us...

I'm not going to argue with you. It's obvious you know more than a former U.S. president who has spent much time over the 25+ years since he left office dealing with this issue by Ummm....going there and seeing first-hand what is happening. Yes your professors/teachers feeding you information that they got from their only source - the U.S. news media is much more accurate. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid young one. It sure is sweet and tastes good but damned if doesn't do anything good for you.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
halls120
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
his work was apparently not geared to the US public.

Which is why he wasn't releected. He was elected to be the President of the United States, not the leader of the rest of the free world.

Ever heard of the term "all politics are local?" Jimmy Carter apparently didn't.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
He in the longer term will get recognized as the "prophet not seen in his own country". He was NOT one of your worst , he was one of your best

In you opinion. Most American Presidential scholars disagree. As did the American public.

While he may have been a visionary on the international stage, he utterly failed to demonstrate to the voters of the US just how and why what he was doing internationally mattered to the US. So - even if he was "right" with regard to his intent, his failure to get that message across qualifies him as a failure.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
I lived in the US during part of the first year of the Carter reign and that is probaby close to the truth, but it was Americas loss if it is fair comment. He had a great deal to offer and to a great extent, the US was not smart enough to take what was on offer. Indeed as someone else remarked, not the first prophet in his own land.......

Again, I think everyone abroad who is in love with Jimmy Carter is looking more at his post-presidential life - admittedly admirable - and ignoring just how miserable his performance was as president on the domestic front. And while he did have the Camp David success, all the supposed influence he had with the middle east sure didn't do him any good during the Iranian embassy takeover, did it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
Again, I think everyone abroad who is in love with Jimmy Carter is looking more at his post-presidential life - admittedly admirable - and ignoring just how miserable his performance was as president on the domestic front. And while he did have the Camp David success, all the supposed influence he had with the middle east sure didn't do him any good during the Iranian embassy takeover, did it?

Well, actually, I was comparing the first 6 months of Carter with the last 6 months of Ford because that was when I was resident in the US. During the campaign, in one of the debates, the sound went off for about 20 minutes and the two candidates stood at their rostrums barely daring to breath and as far as one could tell, not a word passed between them - odd.

So the impression was gained before his Camp David effort, although I did hear about them, it is the impression I am talking about.

One of the initial criticims made of Carter was that he was TOO local. I think there was basically a decision by some "opinion makers" to go for the jugular with a peanut farmer. But as I remarked, at least he did grow his own peanuts.

I think most of the negative wisdom is received wisdom, sent by some rather hostile folk. But heck, feel free to criticise the guy unfairly, that liberty is not needed for the currently incumbent!!!

The late spring/early summer of 77 was when the Nixon-Frost interviews were broadcast. Each night as they came on, a tornado blew into town. Almost enough to make you believe in divine intervention - but I think it was more living in tornado alley! I have a really nice photograph of one (tornado) at the end of the street.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
his work was apparently not geared to the US public.
--
Which is why he wasn't releected. He was elected to be the President of the United States, not the leader of the rest of the free world.
--
Ever heard of the term "all politics are local?" Jimmy Carter apparently didn't.

THIS more or less is what I had in mind. His efforts for the environment and for national parks were admired in Europe, but for sure hated by a majority of US-Americans. His initiatives for peace and more food etc around the globe were highly appreciated in many places, but far less so in his own country.
-

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
In you opinion. Most American Presidential scholars disagree. As did the American public.

I do NOT mean the US public now, the scholars now, I speak about the scholars in for instance in December 2063 .
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Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
I think everyone abroad who is in love with Jimmy Carter is looking more at his post-presidential life - admittedly admirable -

-
NO, you are wrong, people outside the USA look at his presidency, while only few take note of his post-presidential endeavours

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
influence he had with the middle east sure didn't do him any good during the Iranian embassy takeover, did it?

-
No, he HAD success with the Arab World and Israel, and learnt a lot about these countries, but had no clue about Iran. The other way round also exists. You certainly remember that "colonial governor" Mr Bremer, who went to Baghdad and caused widespread bewilderment. The man was a specialist for the area between Pakistan and Turkey, but quite obviously had not the slightest idea about the Arab World, and was outraged when the newly started provisional government as one of its first actions flew to Cairo to re-take the Iraqi seat in the League of Arab States. The man could not understand that this for them had priority. For reasons I canNOT understand, people in Washington regarded him as a specialist also for Iraq which he was NOT.
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baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
I do NOT mean the US public now, the scholars now, I speak about the scholars in for instance in December 2063 .

As I wrote, too early to tell.
 
halls120
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
his work was apparently not geared to the US public.
--
Which is why he wasn't reelected. He was elected to be the President of the United States, not the leader of the rest of the free world.
--
Ever heard of the term "all politics are local?" Jimmy Carter apparently didn't.

THIS more or less is what I had in mind. His efforts for the environment and for national parks were admired in Europe, but for sure hated by a majority of US-Americans. His initiatives for peace and more food etc around the globe were highly appreciated in many places, but far less so in his own country.
-

Too bad for Jimmy the world wasn't able to cast ballots for his re-election.

Maybe if he had 1) paid more attention to leading the United States, 2) did a better job of educating Americans why his actions were good for the country in the long run, and 3) acted more decisively in response to the hostage crisis, he would have been re-elected.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
influence he had with the middle east sure didn't do him any good during the Iranian embassy takeover, did it?

-
No, he HAD success with the Arab World and Israel, and learnt a lot about these countries, but had no clue about Iran. The other way round also exists. You certainly remember that "colonial governor" Mr Bremer, who went to Baghdad and caused widespread bewilderment.

WTF does Bremer have to do with the fact that Carter, who supposedly had so much good will built up in the Arab world for his "enlightened" policies towards the middle east, got NO help from all his "friends" in the region when it came to ending the takeover?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
sprout5199
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Solarix (Reply 9):
If Carter is such a Mid-East expert why did he allow some Iranian nut jobs to take control of our embassy for so long? I would have expected an expert to know how to handle a situation like that.

When this happened it was a surprise. Before this every country treated embassies as "hallowed" ground. Even countries at war let the Ambassadors leave without harm(Vietnam notwithstanding). And just remember the state of the US military in the late 70's. This wasn't Carters fault.

As far a domestically, he was left with impossible inflation, a political mess from Nixon era. He calmed the country after Three Mile Island, but just didnt have the "cult of personalty" needed to gain the confidence of the US people.

Dan in Jupiter
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
WTF does Bremer have to do with the fact that Carter, who supposedly had so much good will built up in the Arab world for his "enlightened" policies towards the middle east, got NO help from all his "friends" in the region when it came to ending the takeover?

a lot. It is another example. Carter had no good friends in Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan. And opinions of Arabs are NOT in high demand among Iranians. "In the region" in the way you use it is a zero-value. Some of his friends would have helped him in case something thelike had happened in Khartoum or in Sana'a etc. But Iran, sorry, no way.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
He in the longer term will get recognized as the "prophet not seen in his own country".

Haha, surely you jest? It has been a mere twenty years and the American population has already judged Carter to be one of our worst Presidents in years. You don't improve from that ranking....

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
He was NOT one of your worst , he was one of your best

Tell that to most Americans...

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
No, he is NOT ignored, not at all.

Perhaps in the halls you float around in Europe, where one is respected for an anti-Israel attitude rather than in the US, where one is ostracized for it.

Quoting Solarix (Reply 9):
If Carter is such a Mid-East expert why did he allow some Iranian nut jobs to take control of our embassy for so long? I would have expected an expert to know how to handle a situation like that.

 checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
neither did Sadat nor does Mubarak spread anti-Semitic or anti-American propaganda

Take a look at the Egyptian press...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
He had a great deal to offer and to a great extent, the US was not smart enough to take what was on offer.

Uhhh, I can't stand this attitude. Carter kept telling Americans what was wrong with us, instead of trying to fix our problems. Reagan, who beat Carter and went on to be the 2nd most successful 20th Century President after FDR, told Americans what was right about them and that is why history will remember the two far differently.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 15):
In you opinion. Most American Presidential scholars disagree. As did the American public.

 checkmark 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
2) did a better job of educating Americans why his actions were good for the country in the long run,

That was what Carter's problem was. Instead of trying to fix the country's problems, he gave moralistic lectures about religion and individual responsibility and blah blah. The country did not want or need this from a peanut farmer from Georgia during a time of national crisis (oil shortages, inflation, Iranian embassy hostages)
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
respected for an anti-Israel attitude

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what "anti-Israel attitude" ?  innocent  angel 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
an anti-Israel attitude rather than in the US, where one is ostracized for it.

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well, I know that in "halls" in the USA you have to be a relentless supporter of Israel to be accepted

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
neither did Sadat nor does Mubarak spread anti-Semitic or anti-American propaganda
--
Take a look at the Egyptian press...

-
the Egyptian press tends to be critical of both the USA and Israel but is neither anti-Jewish nor anti-American
-

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
Reagan, who beat Carter and went on to be the 2nd most successful 20th Century President after FDR, told Americans what was right about them and that is why history will remember the two far differently.

2nd most successful ? you meant the best speaker/orator in modern history ? but otherwise one of the worst presidents. And yes, in his shows, and his speeches WERE shows, he launched very successful shows. And by telling Americans what "was right about them" he flattered people.
-
 
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fxramper
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 2):
Self-proclaimed expert on the Middle East does not make him one. There is a reason why Jimmy Carter was a one-term President who went down in history as one of our worst. There is also a reason why he is basically ignored today. If Bill Clinton were to speak saying the stuff he says, it would be a major news story.

 checkmark 

I saw his interview, he's just trying to sell books. (his 21st written)  bouncy 
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
2nd most successful ? you meant the best speaker/orator in modern history ? but otherwise one of the worst presidents.

Obviously, your the minority and Anti-Reagan for sure, but to prove a point, Reagan had one of the biggest US funerals in history, as you could have seen with the vast crowds that paid their respects by watching him drive by/passing his casket case/etc. Lets not also mention about 165 foreign dignitaries, 36 of those were past and present heads of states, attended his funeral, including his communist rival Mikhail Gorbachev. This OBVIOUSLY says much about the man.

YOU don't have to like him, but apparently the majority of people did like him.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
And yes, in his shows, and his speeches WERE shows, he launched very successful shows. And by telling Americans what "was right about them" he flattered people.

This is why he was so well liked. He TALKED to the people. This caused people to put pressure on their Representatives to accomplish his goals of what he thought was best for the nation. This is why he was able to accomplish almost anything regardless of a Democrat House and Senate. This is also why he was despised by the opposing party, even today, as you yourself pointed out.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 25):
the majority of people

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the majority of people in the USA. Those foreign crocodile-tears whiners just used the occasion to show off and renew contacts.
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I can tell you that I on this side of the Atlantic am a member of the majority.
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Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 25):
He TALKED to the people.

well, I still remember that, while on a holiday-trip in the USA, I turned on the TV in the hotel-room and a speech of him was announced. I waited and then listened to the whole speech, A) in admiration of his speaking and language techniques and B) by mis-using him as a free-of-charge English teacher.
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I regret not to have been invited into the White House then, as I heard that his wines, mostly Californian ones of course, were splendid ones !
-
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
This hostage-taking action came as a surprise, as it looks even to "experts" in Tehran. And one attempt to liberate the hostages by force was made, but failed. To liberate hostages is always a very difficult thing. Beside the point that the collapse of Imperial Iran came surprisingly swiftly. It is fashionable in many "parts" to blame the USA for that, which is wrong as it came about due to many mistakes of the Emperor, Reza Shah Pahlevi .

You know, I'm still pissed off about that because I lost a bet. I bet a guy $25 that Khomeini's plane would get shot down before it landed in Iran. I was sort of thinking it was a deal like what happened to Italo Balbo.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Balbo
 Angry  Angry  Angry
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 27):
I was sort of thinking it was a deal like what happened to Italo Balbo.

Thanks. I did not know that was how he died. His recce mission was about as successful as Balbos were in Leigh-Mallory's hands. Long live Park and down with Leigh-Mallory! There is a topic for a thread, the awful treatment of Park and Dowding.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Thanks. I did not know that was how he died. His recce mission was about as successful as Balbos were in Leigh-Mallory's hands. Long live Park and down with Leigh-Mallory! There is a topic for a thread, the awful treatment of Park and Dowding.

You aren't kidding.

I'm in mind of General George C. Marshall....he singlehandedly saved Ike from an ignominous end during the war (affair with his driver, doncha know) and look what it got him.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
TNNH
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
and the only US persident who is an expert on the Middle East.

yeah because he had to. it was on his watch that 52 innocent american citizens were held hostage, some for as long as, for 444 days in that oh so wonderful region.

it was carter's moronic rose garden strategy (better stay here where its safe!) and his fucked up hostage rescue that completely invalidated him in the eyes of American history. he's nothing anymore.

btw- in his midtern election against Regan, carter lost 91% of the electoral college votes.
 
767Lover
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:44 am

Carter's book is generating quite a bit of controversy.

Not surprisingly, Jewish groups have taken issue with it. Now it appears to have caused a rift between Carter and one of his own allies:

(From the San Francisco Chronicle)

There are those who have called Carter's entire book into question, including friend and colleague Dr. Kenneth W. Stein. A well-known Middle East scholar, and until recently a fellow of Emory University's Carter Center, Stein resigned his position because of strenuous objections to the content of Carter's book. In an e-mail message regarding his resignation, Stein described the book as "replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments."
 
BN747
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
Carter's presidency was doomed from the start. He brought in a staff that was completely unschooled in the way Washington worked, and was so unpopular by 1980 that he was challenged by a fellow democrat in the primary races.

You're absolutely right, Halls...doomed from the start!

America was reeling from it's 1st ever President who voluntarily stepped down from the job--or else he was going to get impeached in the worse way possible. The US Vice President was also indicted and a criminal. Ford the successor..turns and issues a blanket pardon! The nation was even more enraged..absolutely miffed! This was a stellar example of how politics and politicians take care of each other-the work and wishes of the people be damned. The US Congress was embroiled by the Abscam scandal (see VP Agnew) So the American people wanted dire relief from 'status quo' Washington. Carter was the only person that offered that.

He was what the people wanted in overwhelming numbers. Now the doomed part... Carter, not by strategic design, but by his very nature..refused to go along with the 'status quo' method of conducting business in DC and was a 18-hour a day President earning every penny he was paid. His unorthodoxed approach of doing it 'his way' and not Washington's way..immediately began to alienate him from his own Party. The Dem-Congress didn't like their man being a straight-laced no-nonsense shooter..they wanted things back to normal, they wanted a 'pork barrel' peddler for 'their' programs. The 2nd shoe to drop (and the most lethal)..Carter refused to 'sing and dance' for the media..and they made him pay--dearly for it!

The smallest incident became 'Breaking News' ..as long as it slammed Carter. Carter publically admitted his neglect of the Nation's economy played a role in the nation's slid into the doldrums. But the Saudis' 'intentional oil crises' had a far greater impact on the American economy than ANYTHING Carter could have done--exposing America's 1st real vulnerabilty. The press went after Carter for it..instead of the Saudi-lead OPEC! And the American People ate it up like milk chocolate. The 'suspect' Iranian Hostage Crisis was the final straw to sway the American people to 'see' that an honest guy was not the best thing to have a 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. They had forgotten the relief Carter provided them in a change from the 'business as usual (corruption)' . America had chance at changing the face of politics FOREVER and for the better..but it had no the patience nor the stomach for realizing that change on this magnitude requires time, devotion and focus..the microwave-mentality was born..'we want it now! No matter what 'it' is. The American people forgot what they had wanted..or changed their minds of wanted....or simply didn't want to wait. And the media lead the charge in fueling that impatience. It's the one thing the politicians can always rely on..the people can never decide 'what exactly..it is that they truly want, thus we (politicians) can always pitch ideas (hoodwink) to them and hope something sticks with enough people to remain in office til the next election.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
Jimmy Carter is the only president in modern times who is totally honest, he does not do or say anything based on opinion polls.

He is also of course a Nobel Laureate, a nuclear physicist, a devoted Christian, and the only US persident who is an expert on the Middle East.

His words are exactly right.

Right on, Cairo.

And in addition, the only President before and since, who rolled up his sleeves and get down and dirty trying end this Middle East dilemma instead dancing to the 'tune de jour'. If he had not forged the peace between Egypt and Israel..I'd hate to think where we'd be today.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 32):
The American people forgot what they had wanted..or changed their minds of wanted....or simply didn't want to wait.

That's why Carter is referred to as the "accidental President." Had it not been for Watergate, he would still be a state-wide politician in Georgia.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
BN747
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
That's why Carter is referred to as the "accidental President." Had it not been for Watergate, he would still be a state-wide politician in Georgia.

That's a BIG 'IF'...(or IF NOT!) but you're right to a degree...Watergate wasn't the only factor driving 'the people' to a Carter like president...Abscam (Congressional Fraud/bribes), the social divide over Nixon/Vietnam, civil rights (race relations)..all of this drove the people into looking for a 'honest john'! Turns out..Honest John was TOO HONEST, it appears the American people prefer to be lied to..not to the Bush extreme but some where in the middle.

But I just love his reply to Dershowitz's desire to debate the issue...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061215/ap_on_re_us/carter_book

Carter nixes debate with outspoken prof

BOSTON - Former President Carter turned down a request to debate Alan Dershowitz about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying the outspoken Harvard law professor "knows nothing about the situation."

"I don't want to have a conversation even indirectly with Dershowitz," Carter said in Friday's Boston Globe. "There is no need ... to debate somebody who, in my opinion, knows nothing about the situation in Palestine."

And I like Dershowitz a lot..but he's out of his league vs JC on this!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
L-188
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
NO, you are wrong, people outside the USA look at his presidency,

Really?

A little free word association perhaps,

Malase, Recession, Hostages, Rabbit
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
bravo45
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
BOSTON - Former President Carter turned down a request to debate Alan Dershowitz about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying the outspoken Harvard law professor "knows nothing about the situation."

LOL!!
Gotta applaud Carter for that one. Now it may look wrong or arrogant for those who are not familiar with Dershowitz. He wrote a book of his own named 'The case for Israel', on this topic and intended to get big PR with his credentials. Must have gone rather smoothly until he hit the wall by facing Norman Finkelstein in a debate on Democracy Now. He got blown to pieces on his knowledge and the scholarship he displayed. I think Finkelstein has a part of his latest book 'Beyond Chutzpah' devoted to Dershowitz's lies and plagiarism.

For some small sound bites of the debate: Bruce Lee style  Smile
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QKaX3EkrkII
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0JtVPMEtm9I&mode=related&search=


For anyone really interested, here is the full debate:
Part 1- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...-1899267555870962994&q=Alan+Norman
Part 2- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...d=247803848714490692&q=Alan+Norman

Good thing he was just brushed aside.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
A little free word association perhaps,
--
Malase, Recession, Hostages, Rabbit

-
Malaise ?
no, Jimmy Carter contributed to peace, stability and progress in the world
Recession ?
Economy in other parts of the world in the late 70ies was on the way UP
Hostages ?
basically a US-American problem of minor proportions (page 8 in the papers)
-
but the world took note of
> Camp David agreement and peace between Egypt and Israel
> Carter supporting steps to protect the environment
> Carter making a sensible agreement about the Panama Canal
> Carter supporting the "Third World" in many ways
-
 
baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 36):
Now it may look wrong or arrogant for those who are not familiar with Dershowitz.

The Dershowitz advocacy of torture is another issue that makes him to say the least, suspect. It really is astonishing that with McCain in a powerful position in the US Senate and opposition from the FBI, that torture seem to have become such a part of US strategy.
 
bravo45
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
The Dershowitz advocacy of torture is another issue that makes him to say the least, suspect. It really is astonishing that with McCain in a powerful position in the US Senate and opposition from the FBI, that torture seem to have become such a part of US strategy.

Totally with ya. And it was not only McCain, there were many other Republicans who refused to back Bush on this, if not being as loud as McCain. IIRC (from The Daily Show Smile ) I think there were only 8 votes in favor (for torture) of the initial bill. Bush had to resort to 'defining' (yeah right!) torture and do a lot of other things to get around obstacles. Democrats intend to overturn many of those.
 
BN747
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 36):
For some small sound bites of the debate: Bruce Lee style Smile
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QKaX3EkrkII
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0JtVPMEtm9I&mode=related&search=


For anyone really interested, here is the full debate:
Part 1- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...-1899267555870962994&q=Alan+Norman
Part 2- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...d=247803848714490692&q=Alan+Norman

Good thing he was just brushed aside.

wow..WoW...WOW!!!!

God lord..if I were Dershowitz, I'd never volunteer to debate anyone public ever again!!!

Bravo45..thanks so much for those links...!

It simply obliterated my respect I held for Dershowitz! The guy's been a lightning rod/champion for civil rights and here being the well-known/accomplished jewish figure he is, defending -or-I should attempting to defend the 'jewish perspective' of a domineering Israel'...and he came off looking like George Bush debating Mario Cuomo on ANY subject of the sun! I don't know who this Norman Finkelstein is, never heard of the guy ..but he bitch-slapped Dershowitz, handed him his lungs, kidneys, spleen and ass in one fell swoop!


I couldn't believe how Dershowitz tried to 'Hannity & Limbaugh' his way thru this like he did..! The only way Dershowitz can regain any respect is to 'all of sudden' become a hardcore red-state neocon (David Horowitz-style)! Of course that new found respect will be those of Hannity/Limbaugh ilk-not the quality a Dershowitz would be used to..but hey, it's a following nonetheless.

Now I see why Carter said about Dershowitz what he did..after seeing those clips, Dershowitz has lost his mind to think he can BS his way into one-on-one down with Jimmy Carter--for what??? Carter must have seen this interview too..or knew Dershowitz was a 'blanks'. Embarrassing. Just down right shocking!

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
A little free word association perhaps,

Malase, Recession, Hostages, Rabbit

Yep. those were the EXACT phrases the jilted, 'left-at-the-alter-media', told people (USA) to buy..and they ate up like Froot Loops. The Media could have said 'yeah, our economy isn't so great, but we for once have honest and clean government (executive)..now if only we can get the legislative branch to clean it's house, maybe America can have a government that actually works and is trustworthy-fueling , many to believe in their elected office once again-from the youngest to the oldest. But no..they went for the cheap and easy because Carter blew them off. And it's not like he was inaccessible ala 'Bush style-(hush/secrecy) it was because the media wanted playing with the pooch footage, and joking with the press sessions-Carter saw that as time where work could be done..not screwing around!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
-
Malaise ?
no, Jimmy Carter contributed to peace, stability and progress in the world
Recession ?
Economy in other parts of the world in the late 70ies was on the way UP
Hostages ?
basically a US-American problem of minor proportions (page 8 in the papers)
-



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
but the world took note of
> Camp David agreement and peace between Egypt and Israel
> Carter supporting steps to protect the environment
> Carter making a sensible agreement about the Panama Canal
> Carter supporting the "Third World" in many ways
-

Good answer ME AVN,

But in addition to that, and yet not fully appreciated is this..today, the righties love to reach for the 'Saddam was killing his own people' card at every opportunity, but 30 years ago, no, none, not a single right-winger was bitching about ANY dictator around the globe who were slaughtering their own people! And there were hordes of dictators (they called them 'Strongmen' back then) doing EXACTLY that! from Pinochet-to-Marcos-to-Mao-Amin and on and on (And many were US Allies receiving BILLIONS in US aid! The only people who bitched about such abuses back then were pot-smoking long haired commie pinko hippies! That was it! Jimmy Carter was the first to make 'Human Rights' an 'in-your-face' 7 days a week issue. Human Rights, the right for all men (women and children) deserved that basic respect to existence and not be rounded up like cattle and beaten, persecuted, and slaughtered wholesale at the whim of some bloodthirsty dictator because he woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Carter's pursuit of this very issue lit the our very conscience that not everyone lives like we do and it 'business as usual, the slaughtering of innocents' would no longer be tolerated by the US--And guess what..he got crucified and ridiculed for it-right here in the US, by very same US media and Dems and Repubs alike- because the prefered 'business as usual'. Retropectively, it was now a brilliant and brave move!

No..the American People were not ready for Honest John to President of the USA..and they still aren't. We prefer someone who'll spoon fed us Grade-A BS (served with side of Kool Aid)..whether it be Clinton-flavored or Bush Ranch Style! Take your pick.

Dershowitz show have Googled 'Peace, Propaganda and the Promise Land ' and download or ordered the DVD (if he doesn't know how to use 'the' google). Recommended viewing for anyone who wants really know what's going on over there-then you'll understand where Carter is coming from without question.

Dershowitz...I can't even say his name again.



BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
L-188
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Jimmy Carter was the first to make 'Human Rights' an 'in-your-face' 7 days a week issue.

Yup, it was in our faces for 444 days.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
baroque
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 39):
Bush had to resort to 'defining' (yeah right!) torture and do a lot of other things to get around obstacles.

It is a wonnerful concept, defining your way out of, round and through torture. What a pity that the likes of Tom Lehrer decided some time ago that the then current brand of pollies left political satire with nowhere to go!

A talk-back caller here while trying to praise the PBS Lehrer Newshour, accidentally referred to it as the Tom Lehrer Newshour. Now that is a prospect to make your mouth water, 55 minutes of Tom L DOING the news.
 
BN747
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:30 pm

Your 1st Post in this thread...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
A little free word association perhaps,

Malase, Recession, Hostages, Rabbit

Your second...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):

Yup, it was in our faces for 444 days.

Rupert Murdoch needs to offer you a job, no one eats from the media trough with such zeal as believers of above spoon-fed and canned responses.

ABC's Nightline, BEGAN with the counting of those 444 days putting the plight of the hostages on the minds of American people. Night after night after night..for 444 nights..it was stroke of genuis to plant the hostages into the psyche of the American people--making them feel captive as well! Leading them to fault the President of the United States of something he had absolutely nothing do with..whereas policies of his predecessors was the sole cause of Iran's Revolution. It was the US who overthrew the previous gov't and installed the Shah of Iran in the 1st place--ending with the hostage as the Shah was forced into exile..good one L-188, pick and choose only the parts that suit you. Another 'Anti-Honest John' voice.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bravo45
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
It simply obliterated my respect I held for Dershowitz! The guy's been a lightning rod/champion for civil rights and here being the well-known/accomplished jewish figure he is, defending -or-I should attempting to defend the 'jewish perspective' of a domineering Israel'...and he came off looking like George Bush debating Mario Cuomo on ANY subject of the sun! I don't know who this Norman Finkelstein is, never heard of the guy ..but he bitch-slapped Dershowitz, handed him his lungs, kidneys, spleen and ass in one fell swoop!

LOL, so true.
I am really glad you liked it, if you haven't done so I would recommend you to see the entire debate. BTW I did not intend to completely eradicate your regard for Dershowitz and I say this because I don't know a lot about Dershowitz, in fact this was the first time I heard about him so you can imagine how can he earn any respect with that sort of a first impression. Not to go off topic but Finkelstein claim's that his latest book (as I mentioned in my last post) faced many obstacles Dershowitz placed including threatening the publishers with lawsuits etc. He ended up going all the way to California for the publishing with Dershowitz in pursuit, who went all the way to Schwarzenegger to suppress Finkelstein's findings. Bottom line, I have my opinion of Dershowitz without knowing a whole lot about him, but then I am sure it would only get worse if I get to know him more. BTW Norman Finkelstein is the one man I find complete agreement with when he finishes his explaination. He is the son of Holocaust survivors from Poland, his father was in Auschwitz and each member of both his mother and father's family were exterminated. He is extremely critical of Israel, and holocaust reparations etc with arguments which are not very different to the excellent way as posted above. The last nail in the coffin as far as Dershowitz's respect is concern must have been when he (and many others) claimed Norman Finkelstein to be a holocaust denier and saying things like Finkelstein thinks that his mother was a Nazi collaborator. Anyway I'll keep it short, but I have found Finkelstein to be very worthy of respect and always look forward to his videos (am yet to read his books). You can find many if you search 'Norman Finkelstein' on google videos, I think the first search result is the one where he shreds Wolf Blitzer.
 
bravo45
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RE: Former US Pres Jimmy Carter On Palestine

Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 43):
whereas policies of his predecessors was the sole cause of Iran's Revolution. It was the US who overthrew the previous gov't and installed the Shah of Iran in the 1st place--ending with the hostage as the Shah was forced into exile.

 checkmark 
Add to that, the WWII events when Britian and the US first installed the young Shah. At least one can't possibly blame Carter for the current Iran-US crisis, yet they have their roots all the way back to well before the hostage episode.

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