wardialer
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Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:03 pm

Think about it...

About 2800 American lives were lost during the 9/11 attacks..And here we are in the Iraq war which soon to hit 3000 lives...And I mean American lives...

So the whole entire world is laughing at us because more American lives (US Troops) are lost over there than the 9/11 attacks...So the whole thing on this war has BACK-FIRED!!!

So this whole "war tactic" meant nothing at all...practically...What a waste of time and money...

So whats your opinions on this?

And to be honest with you people...I dont why we are out there to protect the only and the ONLY country named IRAQ???

There alot of other countries that hurt more than Iraq..Iraq never had been a threat to the US..never. So who are we actually protecting here??

[Edited 2006-12-06 15:06:19]
 
LHMark
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:10 pm

Whoah! I guess I never thought about it that way! Or heard anyone bring up these exact points before! My eyes have been truly opened.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
wardialer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:22 pm

I dont know...I really respect someones freedom of speech here and the direction of political parties...but I am just stating the facts here...I do not have the exact figures here..But it seems to not make sense at all when we are out there fighting terroism and when you think about it American US troop lives had been lost ALMOST as equally as in the WTC attacks...
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:58 pm

Go hug a tree and smoke some pot.

Perhaps you might as well go do the same thing seeing as you're going to be paying for this debacle through tax increases for the next 20 years. Wish I could say the same, but I'm exempt from owing Uncle Sam anything.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
this whole "war tactic" meant nothing at all...practically...What a waste of time and money...

-
it meant GWB to be a "wartimes-president" and it secured his 2nd term in office. So that HE at least "won" the war in November 2004 .
-
And even if GWB did make a "link" between terrorism and Iraq, the 11Sep01 matter and Iraq are two different issues.
-
 
airtran737
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
Perhaps you might as well go do the same thing seeing as you're going to be paying for this debacle through tax increases for the next 20 years. Wish I could say the same, but I'm exempt from owing Uncle Sam anything.

I have no prolem with the war, and fully support it.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
LHMark
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):

I have no prolem with the war, and fully support it.

Well hell, someone give AirTran737's phone number to the Army recruiters. He sounds like just what they need.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
airtran737
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 9):
Well hell, someone give AirTran737's phone number to the Army recruiters. He sounds like just what they need.

I'd love to be there. I'd go in a second. Unfortunately having torn my ACL and having my meniscus cartilage removed I am not able to serve. Believe me if I could I would go in a second. I think people have forgotten about the words Duty, Honor, and Country.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:41 am

Americans' duty is to the United States of America, not 28,000,000 fragmented and strife-ridden people two continents away.

Nobody forgot about country or honor either. Except for the Republicans, Democrats, and just about every special interest fueling the flames of greed and corruption in Washington. Those there who truly honored and loved their country would be seeking to restore it to the shining beacon of reason, respect and goodwill the word 'America' should otherwise stand for.

[Edited 2006-12-06 16:43:30]

[Edited 2006-12-06 16:44:23]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
flynavy
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:48 am

Since he fully supports it, I gave AirTran737's name and phone number to GoArmy.com. They should be contacting him in the next few minutes.

To be fair, and honest, if I were King of America, I would make the oil companies pay for the Iraq war. Surely they can afford to foot the bill.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):
if I were King of America, I would make the oil companies pay for the Iraq war. Surely they can afford to foot the bill.

why not the former boss of Halliburton directly ?
 
luv2fly
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
it meant GWB to be a "wartimes-president" and it secured his 2nd term in office. So that HE at least "won" the war in November 2004 .

If this tactic was valid then George Senior would have won a second term!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Americans' duty is to the United States of America, not 28,000,000 fragmented and strife-ridden people two continents away.

So very true. We need to stop being the peace keepers for the whole world. We need to take care of our own.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Nobody forgot about country or honor either. Except for the Republicans, Democrats, and just about every special interest fueling the flames of greed and corruption in Washington. Those there who truly honored and loved their country would be seeking to restore it to the shining beacon of reason, respect and goodwill the word 'America' should otherwise stand for.

Also it us sad how many politicians have even seen any military duty what so ever.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 14):
George Senior would have won a second term!

"Bush the elder" WOULD have won a second term against Al Gore / Liebermann, but NOT against Bill Clinton / Al Gore .
-

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
.......................................

What a charming thought !
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
.......................................


What a charming thought !

I rather thought so, thanks.

The every couple month's instant replay of this subject is monotonous . . . this thread even more so simply because it's not supported with any fact, just gibberish from the thread starter . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
"Bush the elder" WOULD have won a second term against Al Gore / Liebermann, but NOT against Bill Clinton / Al Gore .

Slight correction. Clinton won 1992 with 43% of the vote. Bush Sr. had 38% and Ross Perot had 19%. If Perot had not run, Sr. would have won that election handily.
 
kevi747
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 2):
Jesus fucking Christ give it up. You people need to get over it. The war happened, it continues, and it won't be stopped. Bush felt justified in his actions, and I still support him.

Absolutely baffling. Even with the benefit of hindsight so many people still staunchly stand by that miserable failure. I truly cannot understand how anyone can support that man.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 2):
Go hug a tree and smoke some pot.

Yes, because anyone who doesn't fully support the war must be some type of hippie. Very mature.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
I have no prolem with the war, and fully support it.

Why do you think we went into this war in Iraq?

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 10):
I'd love to be there. I'd go in a second. Unfortunately having torn my ACL and having my meniscus cartilage removed I am not able to serve.

How convenient.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
wardialer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Please people...I do not wanna argue here..

If anyone can post the death tolls by comparison between the deaths of the WTC attacks and the Iraqi war deaths that would be great...

Like I said...I dont have the exact figures but I'll bet the total US death tolls are at a range of 2800 to close to 3000 so far...And it will climb...

SO the whole thing has back-fired on the Bush Admin...

In other woeds...If you ADD up all the deaths of the WTC attacks and the Iraqi war death tolls...GUESS WHAT...The results are not good..
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:20 pm

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
About 2800 American lives were lost during the 9/11 attacks..And here we are in the Iraq war which soon to hit 3000 lives...And I mean American lives...

Very few Americans died because of Hitler before they landed in Normandy to free France and other European nations. It took a few seconds before the American death toll during World War II exceeded the American death toll before the war, yet the cause was worthy.
Only to say that comparing death tolls should not be a measure of whether a war should be fought or not (whatever my opinions on the war in Iraq).

On and after September 11th, some echoed that other contemporaneous events created far more deaths than 9-11 (Rwanda, famine, AIDS...) and so they should get more attention than 9-11. Again, the significance of an event should not be measured in number of deaths.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Wardialer (Reply 21):
If anyone can post the death tolls by comparison between the deaths of the WTC attacks and the Iraqi war deaths that would be great...

It's not a simple math equation, if we lost this many in the attacks and lost this many in the war then it's sucess is determined as such.

It's the principle, you were attacked, you went to war.

Hopefully in 2 years I'll get to serve in Afghanistan. Someone go give the recruiter my number.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 23):
It's the principle, you were attacked, you went to war

The US were attacked by Saudi-funded/staffed, Afghanistan-based A-Q and Bush went to war with Iraq...  crazy 
With the same logic of this "principle" the US should have attacked Argentina or Madagascar as a response to Pearl Harbor.
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):
The US were attacked by Saudi-funded/staffed, Afghanistan-based A-Q and Bush went to war with Iraq...

Bush went to war with terrorists, America went to Afghanistan, and now there are other countries fighting in Afghanistan. The fact that he went to war with Iraq does not mean that he didn't try to find Al-Q. And no one can seriously say that removing So Damn Insane from power was a bad thing.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
baroque
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 28):
And no one can seriously say that removing So Damn Insane from power was a bad thing.

The relatives of the 550,000 dead Iraqis might have a different opinion and so do at least some of the American families.

No point in saying Saddam was bad when what you are visiting on the Iraqis stands a good chance of being assessed as worse. If the Iraqis are as keen as you say, why do something like 70% want the US, UK and Aus out, and why do more than 50% think it is OK to kill one (or more) of the invasion force? Sounds like a different opinion to me!

Do you remember how it was when Canada was occupied? No, well come back and tell us how it is when occupying forces kick down the doors in the middle of the night, the electricity has failed and there is no drinkable water and you have to queue for petrol when your country has the fourth largest oil reserves in the area.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 24):
So much for respecting the right to ones opinion.

Completely agree with you. The usual bunch of people have come into this thread to tell us all just how much they dislike it and some of their contributions are limited to posting extremely childish pictures.

If you don't like a particular discussion, don't participate. It's as simple as that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
With all due respect, the rest of the world is not laughing, rather it is totally appalled at the abuse of power.

 checkmark 

I think we all agree that if 9/11 had not happened, Iraq would not have been invaded. The whole reason why the Bush Administration after 9/11 decided to go after Saddam was because it successfully managed to sell to the American Public the idea that Saddam equaled to al-Qaeda and that the two had probably cooperated when preparing the 9/11 attacks. The WMD issue gave the whole thing a sense of urgency and was often exploited by senior administration officials talking about mushroom-clouds or holding up little vials enough to kill thousands of innocent people, or so they said.

Bottom line: the invasion of Iraq was to deal with al-Qaeda and prevent them from obtaining WMD's.

I think it is fair to assess that both objectives have not been met. Al-Qaeda is larger and more popular then ever before and some major f@ck-ups in Washington have left former UN monitored high-explosive caches and other dual-use WMD-related storage facilities unguarded, the majority of which have been looted. "Included in the missing material are HMX and RDX, the New York Times reported on Monday. Those explosives can be used to demolish buildings, but can also be used to produce warheads for missiles and detonate nuclear weaponry.(1)

The terror-threat to the US or US interests (or any of its allies) is now greater than before 9/11. Instead of actively going after al-Qaeda as was the case with Afghanistan (where much more should, could and still remains to be done), the invasion of Iraq has proven to be a diversion which has strengthened the al-Qaeda enemy enormously while facilitating the access of other enemies (Iran, insurgents, non-al Qaeda terrorism) to valuable material looted from former UN monitored sites poorly guarded (or completely unguarded) by Coalition troops.

Is the U.S. (or the world, for that matter) safer than on September 11, 2001? Absolutely not!

(1) http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/1...iraq_explosives_missing041025.html
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
RJdxer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
So the whole entire world is laughing at us because more American lives (US Troops) are lost over there than the 9/11 attacks...So the whole thing on this war has BACK-FIRED!!!

Then the whole world must have been laughing at us for going to war in 1917, 1945, 1950, and 1964 since we lost more troops in each of those wars than we lost in the initial attacks. That has got to be one of the dumbest analogies I have ever seen here.  faint 

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
Perhaps you might as well go do the same thing seeing as you're going to be paying for this debacle through tax increases for the next 20 years.

When the price of this war starts to outpace the price of entitlement spending, the real reason for any tax increase, then I will start to worry.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Those there who truly honored and loved their country would be seeking to restore it to the shining beacon of reason, respect and goodwill the word 'America' should otherwise stand for.

Cue violins, cue marching band, cue Kate Smith sound alike with "God Bless America".....from a person who so loves his country he evidently chooses to live in.....Japanconfused 

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 12):
Since he fully supports it, I gave AirTran737's name and phone number to GoArmy.com.

Since the Navy aint doin sh-t on the ground there.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
why not the former boss of Halliburton directly ?

How about we bill the Palestinians, they started all this back in 1947.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
With all due respect, the rest of the world is not laughing, rather it is totally appalled at the abuse of power.

Yet whom does the rest of the world turn to whenever there is a major natural disaster or they are being helplessly trampled by a superior power, or where do they run when they want a better life.........  banghead 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
NeilYYZ
Posts: 2443
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
No point in saying Saddam was bad when what you are visiting on the Iraqis stands a good chance of being assessed as worse.

I'm pretty sure that's not even a coherent sentence.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Do you remember how it was when Canada was occupied? No, well come back and tell us how it is when occupying forces kick down the doors in the middle of the night, the electricity has failed and there is no drinkable water and you have to queue for petrol when your country has the fourth largest oil reserves in the area.

Iraq was never like Canada while So Damn was in power. Once the Iraqis are able to manage their own security and their own government I'm sure it will be a much improved place to live. Just for the record, I do have to wait for gas, when the prices go down the lines get long.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 30):
Is the U.S. (or the world, for that matter) safer than on September 11, 2001? Absolutely not!

Welcome (willkommen), you have been missed.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 31):
Yet whom does the rest of the world turn to whenever there is a major natural disaster or they are being helplessly trampled by a superior power, or where do they run when they want a better life..

Stay tuned, but normal service may not be resumed.

I don't know if the US was ever a resort when being trampled - IIRC it took over two years, an attack on Pearl and Hitler to declare war on the US before the US joined Britain and the Commonwealth for real in their little spat with Herr Hitler. You would not want to hold your breath.
 
mt99
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:18 am

So.. is it like Vietnam yet?

I was watching the "Aliens" the other day and the director - James Cameron - was saying in an interview in 1986 (when the movie was released) how people had compared his vision of Aliens with Vietnam.

He said that it was true, that he considered Vietnam to be the first High Tech war and he found fascinating how the US could not win. No matter how more advanced they US was.. This was 1986 - You can replay the same interview 20 years later and the same rings true..

What happens next? Will the US have the trust of the International Community to head up the next war?
Step into my office, baby
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 31):
Since the Navy aint doin sh-t on the ground there.

Hey now! I guess the Marines went there with no corpsmen? The Navy has boondockers on the ground there, but that is not what the Navy is for.

Dan in Jupiter
 
NeilYYZ
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 35):

What happens next? Will the US have the trust of the International Community to head up the next war?

I have more faith in pigs flying and hitting the Pick 6 than I do in the UN.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
Toulouse
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Wardialer (Reply 21):
If anyone can post the death tolls by comparison between the deaths of the WTC attacks and the Iraqi war deaths that would be great...

According to the BBC on October 11th 2006, the death toll of iraqis stood at 665.000 "yes that SIX HUNDRED AND SIXTY-FIVE THOUSAND". Of course this is based on one study, while obviously Bush and Co. (and all his blind supporters) will and do deny such figures and put it at "only" about 30.000.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 33):
I have more faith in pigs flying and hitting the Pick 6 than I do in the UN.

OK fine.. then who? Has the Iraq war proved that the US is capable?
Step into my office, baby
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 30):

I think we all agree that if 9/11 had not happened, Iraq would not have been invaded.

Disagree. Going after Saddam was on Bush's agenda prior to 9/11. Remember, Saddam tried to kill daddy Bush. It was payback time. W just needed an excuse and it came at 0846 EST on 9/11/01 when the first plane blew into the WTC. Had 9/11 not occurred, W would have just gone directly to lame excuse #2 for attacking Iraq - that being the WMD's that weren't.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
.
The every couple month's instant replay of this subject is monotonous

So this is where we're at? Discussing a war that has killed nearly 3000 American service men and women (we lost 11 more yesterday) and who knows how many innocent Iraqi's has now become "monotonous"? That's just shameful.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 31):
Yet whom does the rest of the world turn to whenever there is a major natural disaster or they are being helplessly trampled by a superior power, or where do they run when they want a better life

When exactly did the Iraqi's ask us to invade their country and save them from being trampled by a superior power?
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 36):
Disagree. Going after Saddam was on Bush's agenda prior to 9/11. Remember, Saddam tried to kill daddy Bush. It was payback time. W just needed an excuse and it came at 0846 EST on 9/11/01 when the first plane blew into the WTC. Had 9/11 not occurred, W would have just gone directly to lame excuse #2 for attacking Iraq - that being the WMD's that weren't.

You really don't believe it was all about the assassination attempt of President G.H.W. Bush, do you?

You need to think deeper than this. Think about who was in the administration during the beginning -- a great deal of people who had some form of connection to the first Bush administration. Vice President Cheney was one of the biggest supporters of stopping at the 100 hour mark during the Gulf War. And he defended the decision not to go after Saddam for many years after.

However, him, and a lot other people involved in the decision to stop short, became increasingly disillusioned and openly spoke about how it was a mistake. Mr Armitage, Mr Rumsfeld, Vice President Cheney were all quoted during the 90s as saying we should have "finished the job." Look at a lot of the power brokers in the Administration who publicly - some as early as 1995 - went on record as saying that a new approach to Saddam was needed.

But a lot of them also said that going in there with force and removing Saddam was off the table. Everyone agreed that the policies of deal with Saddam were broken - both Democrats and Republicans - but they also agreed that invasion was out of the question.

If 9.11 meant anything - as you suggest - it was simply that the restrains of 9.10.01 no longer existed. People were free to explore options that had previously been politically impractical.

So for you to suggest it was because Saddam tried to kill President GHW Bush... it's terribly simplistic and the product of a one-dimensional mind.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-12-07 18:26:12]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
NeilYYZ
Posts: 2443
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 34):
OK fine.. then who? Has the Iraq war proved that the US is capable?

If I were to go to war, which I very well might once I'm done University and enlist, there are three countries (excluding Canada because I'd be in it with Canada) that I would want by my side.

United States of America
United Kingdom
Israel

If I had to choose between going it alone (ie. just Canada) or having the UN, I'd choose just Canada.

I don't think that the UN could have quelled the insurgency any better in Iraq than the US has been doing.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 39):
The issue might have been high on Bush's agenda, it certainly wouldn't have been at the American Public's agenda at all if it weren't for 9/11. There's no way the American Public would have supported the invasion of Iraq just because Bush told them Saddam's WMD were a direct threat to the U.S. (which they weren't).

I think you are underestimating Bush and his ability to use intimidation as a way of influencing the American Public. Hell, it was his constant use of the fear factor that got him re-elected in '04.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 36):
that I would want by my side.

I did not say "be on your side" but "lead".. prob the list you have will stay the same.. but i just wanted to clarify that point..
Step into my office, baby
 
NeilYYZ
Posts: 2443
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):
I did not say "be on your side" but "lead".. prob the list you have will stay the same.. but i just wanted to clarify that point..

Very true. And those were in no particular order, just the 3 countries that I would like to serve under if it were a situation where Canada couldn't lead.
It may be too early to drink scotch... But it is NEVER too early to think about it...
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 37):
I think you are underestimating Bush and his ability to use intimidation as a way of influencing the American Public.

I know he was able to invade Iraq and get re-elected doing just that. The whole issue is whether he would have been able to achieve the first if 9/11 had not happened. I don't think so. A direct consequence of 9/11 was that the American people no longer felt save in their own homes. They knew that just 19 terrorists from Farawayistan could kill them, their families and their friends for whatever reason.

And it was the Bush Administration which successfully exploited those fears to try to achieve an entirely different objective. People supported the idea of invading Iraq because they believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11 (75% of the general public prior to the invasion), because they believed Saddam's missiles had sufficient range to reach the U.S. and thus cause even more damage than on 9/11. Absolutely everything was presented as being related to 9/11 when the U.S. general public was presented with the idea of invading Iraq. On that premise, support for that idea was rapidly obtained. Without 9/11, the General Public would not have felt endangered by Saddam's alleged WMD's and very few would probably ever have heard about Osama bin Laden and/or al-Qaeda.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
airtran737
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 15):
How convenient.

Actually it was quite a pain in the ass. I would love to go and serve my country. Somebody has to protect the rights of bleeding hearts libs such as yourself. And being that you aren't going to take a weapon and stand opposed someone else will have to do it in your stead.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 31):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
.
The every couple month's instant replay of this subject is monotonous

So this is where we're at? Discussing a war that has killed nearly 3000 American service men and women (we lost 11 more yesterday) and who knows how many innocent Iraqi's has now become "monotonous"? That's just shameful.

NO, not shameful. Realistic. Same people, saying the same thing about the same people . . . monotonous.

Yes, I know eleven more troops died yesterday. And there will be more. Unfortunately.

But you tell me, what is different in this thread than in any other on this subject? You, me, Schoenorama, MDorBUST, NeilYYZ, RJDxer, the same crowd - discussing the same thing. As I said in a post that was deleted  sarcastic  present something new, or it's retaking old terrain - a waste of time and energy.

Yes we know the situation is fucked up over there - for a plethora of reasons. Yes we know troops are dying over there every day. Yes we know civilians are dying over there every day. Yes we know things are, apparently, getting worse over there. Yes we continue to rehash the same shit over and over

Examples thereof:

Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
So this whole "war tactic" meant nothing at all...practically...What a waste of time and money...



Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter):
I dont why we are out there to protect the only and the ONLY country named IRAQ???



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 5):
I have no prolem with the war, and fully support it.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
why not the former boss of Halliburton directly ?



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 11):
We need to stop being the peace keepers for the whole world



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
Slight correction. Clinton won 1992 with 43% of the vote. Bush Sr. had 38% and Ross Perot had 19%.



Quoting Kevi747 (Reply 15):
Yes, because anyone who doesn't fully support the war must be some type of hippie. Very mature.



Quoting Wardialer (Reply 16):
SO the whole thing has back-fired on the Bush Admin...



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
The US were attacked by Saudi-funded/staffed, Afghanistan-based A-Q and Bush went to war with Iraq...



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 20):
The fact that he went to war with Iraq does not mean that he didn't try to find Al-Q.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
The relatives of the 550,000 dead Iraqis might have a different opinion and so do at least some of the American families.



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
The usual bunch of people have come into this thread to tell us all just how much they dislike it and some of their contributions are limited to posting extremely childish pictures.



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 22):
the invasion of Iraq was to deal with al-Qaeda and prevent them from obtaining WMD's.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
How about we bill the Palestinians, they started all this back in 1947.



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 26):
So.. is it like Vietnam yet?



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 31):
Going after Saddam was on Bush's agenda prior to 9/11.



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 31):
When exactly did the Iraqi's ask us to invade their country and save them from being trampled by a superior power?



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 34):
I think you are underestimating Bush and his ability to use intimidation



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 37):
And it was the Bush Administration which successfully exploited those fears to try to achieve an entirely different objective.

Same shit different day . . . monotonous.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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NWOrientDC10
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
But you tell me, what is different in this thread than in any other on this subject? You, me, Schoenorama, MDorBUST, NeilYYZ, RJDxer, the same crowd - discussing the same thing. As I said in a post that was deleted present something new, or it's retaking old terrain - a waste of time and energy

Yet you are here discussing it. Why?
Things aren't always as they seem
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 40):
Yet you are here discussing it. Why?

To set the record straight perhaps, and/or to raise the BS flag.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 41):
Quoting NWOrientDC10 (Reply 40):
Yet you are here discussing it. Why?

To set the record straight perhaps, and/or to raise the BS flag.

Ignore him, he's just  stirthepot  again, like this morning - only all those posts are gone - Horus decided to be a Moderator today.

Ignore him and he'll go away.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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NWOrientDC10
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 42):
Ignore him, he's just again, like this morning - only all those posts are gone - Horus decided to be a Moderator today.

Ignore him and he'll go away

I'll leave on my own terms, thank you.

Also, my replies weren't the only ones which were deleted.

Good Day to all of you  Smile

Russell
Things aren't always as they seem
 
keesje
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:58 am

I think Bush became arrogant, didn´t listen to anyone and everybody else rallied behind the flag.

Some people think he really didn´t understand the complexity of the situation.

When french Fillepin held a speech before the UN to prevent the war he got a standing ovation. It was simple cut out by the US news networks & people started pouring french wine over the streets.



I hope the US gets a better president next time.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2727
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 32):

So for you to suggest it was because Saddam tried to kill President GHW Bush... it's terribly simplistic and the product of a one-dimensional mind.

You are 100% correct. Bush IS terribly simplistic and has a one dimensional mind. Thank you for agreeing with me.

That being said, it's been reported by Richard Clarke that, as early as 9/12/01 Bush was pushing him to find a link between Iraq and 9/11. This quote from Mr. Clarke spells it out pretty well, I'd say:

"On September 12th, I left the video conferencing center and there, wandering alone around the situation room, was the president. He looked like he wanted something to do. He grabbed a few of us and closed the door to the conference room. "Look," he told us, "I know you have a lot to do and all, but I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this. See if he's linked in any way."

I was once again taken aback, incredulous, and it showed. 'But, Mr. President, Al Qaeda did this.'

'I know, I know, but - see if Saddam was involved. Just look. I want to know any shred-'

'Absolutely, we will look-again.' I was trying to be more respectful, more responsive. 'But you know, we have looked several times for state sponsorship of Al Qaeda and not found any real linkages to Iraq. Iran plays a little, as does Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, Yemen.'

'Look into Iraq, Saddam,' the president said testily and left us."


So, slightly over 24 hours after the attacks, the president's own anti-terrorism czar is telling him in no uncertain terms that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with the previous day's attacks yet Bush tells him to press on and find a way to link them to Saddam. For you to not to acknowledge that Bush had a pre-9/11 agenda to get Saddam is mind boggling to say the least. Perhaps you're better informed than a former member of the Bush administration.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Yes we know the situation is fucked up over there - for a plethora of reasons. Yes we know troops are dying over there every day. Yes we know civilians are dying over there every day. Yes we know things are, apparently, getting worse over there. Yes we continue to rehash the same shit over and over

As long as the Commander in Chief continues to contradict himself ("I was never 'Stay The Course') and continues to ignore the advice that a significant change in his "strategy" in a must, there will be nothing monotonous about pointing out the fact that Iraq was, is, and continues to be a quagmire. Hell, 2 days before 'resigning' Bush's own SoD wrote a memo saying the strategy in Iraq wasn't working and called for a major course correction. And now we have a report from a bipartisan commission that says exactly the same thing - Bush's war policies have failed and there needs to be a change in strategy. And what is Bush's response? As recently as yesterday, when he was asked when he would start to carry out the recommendations for a change, he replied that other studies are still under way by the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House National Security Council. He said he would make major policy decisions "after I get the reports". If anything is monotonous, it's Bush's ignorance.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):
I hope the US gets a better president next time.

Short of the Easter Bunny being elected, I don't see how we can do much worse.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 45):
Hell, 2 days before 'resigning' Bush's own SoD wrote a memo saying the strategy in Iraq wasn't working and called for a major course correction.

I'm gonna tell you, Rummy did NOT write that, or he didn't want it written. Absolutely NOT his style. He's an autocratic dictator that I can never recall has backed down from anything or anyone once his mind was made up. I'm guessing Rummy was told, it's time to make a change and you're it - and by the way, here's a memo you're going to write while the GOP attempts to pull it's head outta it's ass. That's my own opinion - I've no proof - but I have worked around Rumsfeld, and I know others that did/do . . . they share the opinion.

I mentioned this in Rumsfeld's Resignation Thread as well.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cba
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
How about we bill the Palestinians, they started all this back in 1947.

You mean the Israelis? They're the ones who have continued to occupy Palestinian territories.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
Since the Navy aint doin sh-t on the ground there.

Actually, the Marines lead the invasion.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 38):
Somebody has to protect the rights of bleeding hearts libs such as yourself. And being that you aren't going to take a weapon and stand opposed someone else will have to do it in your stead.

Just because someone doesn't support the Iraq War doesn't mean that they're too cowardly to serve their country. This war was clearly based on faulty intelligence, the administration lied to the American people and used 9/11 to sell the war. This is worse than Johnson's Gulf of Tonkin Resolution...

At least when Clinton lied, nobody died.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:21 pm

If I remember correctly this was a response to the thread starter before it vanished following some event or other!!

With all due respect, the rest of the world is not laughing, rather it is totally appalled at the abuse of power. Also appalled that the lesson of the abuse of power being so solidly sheeted home in loss of life, injuries and treasure and in loss of the standing of the US.

It will take considerable skill to extricate the US, the UK and Aus (you always forget us, but Howard keeps us in there, God knows why, I don't think Howard does) without great loss of face. And sadly this is what it is coming down to. Howard talks about the damage to Iraq if we leave, but not at all about the damage if we stay. We express amusement at the importance Asians place on face, but Iraq is rapidly becoming the west's great loss of face.

If the aim was to avenge the WTC deaths (and many of them were not Americans might I say) then war was always going to be a bad idea. Whatever force Christianity has had is largely due to it having worked out that acts taken in revenge are seldom productive.

The attack on Iraq was in effect a petulant response. And like most childish attacks, it is ending in tears.

Sadly, not even the tears will be correctly directed - they should be directed not at the loss of money, not at the loss of power, but at the many, many thousands of wounded Iraqis, Americans and British (and their families) who will carry their injuries to the grave.
 
baroque
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RE: Bush's Iraq War Tactiic Backfired..Heres Why..

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 47):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
How about we bill the Palestinians, they started all this back in 1947.

You mean the Israelis? They're the ones who have continued to occupy Palestinian territories.

I am pleased that someone apart from an Australian thought that was the world upside down!

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