9V
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The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:01 am

Canadian citizen Maher Arar is barred from entering the United States.

Quote:
My nightmare began on September 26, 2002. I was transiting through New York airport, JFK Airport, when they asked me to wait in a waiting area...

Read the rest of his story HERE. It's fascinating.  Smile
 
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shamrock350
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:09 am

That was one of the most distressing things I have ever had to read. It was shocking and I had no idea that kind of thing went on in the the world let alone JFK!
The pain lasted 6 months after being hit in the wrist by a cable! Imagine having a burning around your wrist for 6 long months.
 
WrenchBender
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:15 am

The head of the RCMP just resigned over this case....

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/News...alNewsArticle.htm?src=n120643A.xml

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 1):
The pain lasted 6 months after being hit in the wrist by a cable!

And everyone believes that statement?

Have you ever had a single blow hurt you for six months?

I've broken bones and it didn't hurt for six months.
I have friends and relatives who have had fingers and other appendages smashed or cut off and it didn't hurt for six whole months.

I have no doubt as to the detention and movements he describes but that statement is just not believable.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
johnboy79
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I've broken bones and it didn't hurt for six months.
I have friends and relatives who have had fingers and other appendages smashed or cut off and it didn't hurt for six whole months.

You, your friends, and family had access to something he didn't have. A DOCTOR!!! It's totally believable for UNTREATED injuries to still be painful after months without treatment.

-JB79
Rock Chalk Jayhawk
 
GQfluffy
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Have you ever had a single blow hurt you for six months?

Hockey puck to the knee after practice almost 6 years ago. Hurts to this day...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Johnboy79 (Reply 4):
A DOCTOR!!!

You assume that because there are doctors, people run to them every time they fall down.

The short list:
Broken bone in foot - no doctor.
Knife blade stuck in bone in finger and had to be pried out - no doctor.
Machete cut to web of hand - no doctor.
Dog (springer spaniel) bite all the way through thumb - no doctor.
Broken nose -no doctor.
Smashed flat nose - no doctor. No, wait, four hours later it was still bleeding so I went to the doctor and got a vitamin K shot.
Abcess from leech - no doctor.
Splinter all the way through one finger and in the next finger until it jammed against the bone - no doctor, and it did not hurt six months later.

Redwood bark in my eye - went to the doctor.
Skydrol in my eye - went to the doctor.
Skin cancer - went to a doctor.

So I might have access to a doctor but doctors, medicine, treatement and pain killing drugs are not a factor.

I still find the guy's account of it non-credible.
I know this does happen.
I'm sure it happened to him.

His words just don't ring true. They sound like they are calculated to make the women in the audience weepy.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
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n229nw
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 6):
You assume that because there are doctors, people run to them every time they fall down.

The short list:
Broken bone in foot - no doctor.
Knife blade stuck in bone in finger and had to be pried out - no doctor.
Machete cut to web of hand - no doctor.
Dog (springer spaniel) bite all the way through thumb - no doctor.
Broken nose -no doctor.
Smashed flat nose - no doctor. No, wait, four hours later it was still bleeding so I went to the doctor and got a vitamin K shot.
Abcess from leech - no doctor.
Splinter all the way through one finger and in the next finger until it jammed against the bone - no doctor, and it did not hurt six months later.

Yes yes, we get it, Slamclick. You are a REAL MAN unlike this pussy who let the torture get him anxious and depressed. You would have kicked some ass in a Syrian jail, showed them who was boss. Afterward you would have done some push-ups on your bloody palms and partied like it was 1999. You rock.

[Edited 2006-12-07 05:55:11]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Canadian citizen Maher Arar is barred from entering the United States.

When are we going to see similar biographies of people who were killed on 9/11? I'd like to see several thousand, actually -- one for each innocent person killed.
What's fair is fair.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
When are we going to see similar biographies of people who were killed on 9/11? I'd like to see several thousand, actually -- one for each innocent person killed.

How does this relate to Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, being deported by US authorities to Syria?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 9):
How does this relate to Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, being deported by US authorities to Syria?

I think that appropriate context should be shown. If the victim gets to tell his story in this case, making U.S. policy look bad, so should be told the victims of 9/11 that helped motivate parts of this policy.
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:44 pm

Those who think that the policy of extraordinary rendition is fine, why not go back to the middle ages, set up a Court of Star Chamber and generally act like they did in the medieval times that so enamour your pet hate OBL? Oh, you already have a Court of Star Chamber, well go and ask Osama for some more tips.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Those who think that the policy of extraordinary rendition is fine, why not go back to the middle ages, set up a Court of Star Chamber and generally act like they did in the medieval times that so enamour your pet hate OBL?

The difference is that the U.S. releases those who it believes are unfairly held. In the case of our enemies, too many of their releases, of their prisoners, are solely to the afterlife.

Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

... Bueller? ... Bueller? ... Bueller? ... Anyone?

Please see:

http://www.redcross.org/news/in/intllaw/guantanamo1.html

[Edited 2006-12-07 14:31:16]
What's fair is fair.
 
baroque
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12):
Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

I guess you were not following the difficulties that the Red Cross had in visiting on terms acceptable to them. I am not sure that this has happened yet. Is the US government going to publish the Red Cross reports? Why not if the camps are so humane?

As for the rendition camps, the US will not even admit they exist let alone permit inspections.

Guantanamo is bad enough, but this thread is about a process that is even worse.

And just for the record, that website is American Red Cross and the page does not include a single piece of information about whether Guantanamo meets Geneva Convention standards or even normal humanity standards, and there have been many reports that it does not, including, by the way, from the FBI.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12):
Besides, when was the last time that the Red Cross or Red Crescent visited OBL's POW camps?

[Baroque writes:]

I guess you were not following the difficulties that the Red Cross had in visiting on terms acceptable to them. I am not sure that this has happened yet. Is the US government going to publish the Red Cross reports? Why not if the camps are so humane?

But please read the following, from the above-provided Web link:

(Excerpt)

Quote:
It seems a horror to many Americans that anyone—especially the Red Cross—would be interested in the welfare of the Afghan war detainees being held by the U.S. military in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. However, it is our very own government that requested the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) to visit with the detainees.

Why?

Along with 188 other nations across the globe, the United States is committed to meeting the standards of humanitarian treatment described in the Geneva Conventions— international treaties that provide protection and assistance to victims of armed conflict. The Geneva Conventions require that all captured combatants or prisoners of war (POWs) be visited by the ICRC to help assure the world that their treatment is humane.

Meeting with POWs and detainees to discuss their treatment is one of the ICRC’s unique functions. As an independent organization promoting respect for international humanitarian law, the ICRC also registers these people so their families and their government know where they are, and to give them the opportunity to write personal messages to relatives. These activities are legally mandated by the Geneva Conventions for the protection of captured combatants from all nations, including the United States, "who have fallen into the power of the enemy."

Ensuring the protection of captured U.S. combatants is another reason why the United States invited the ICRC to visit the detainees. In times of war, the United States wants to know that the ICRC will be visiting captured Americans. For example, the ICRC visited three American service men held in a Serbian prison during the Kosovo conflict and arranged for them to send messages to their families back home. During the Gulf War, the ICRC met with 55 U.S. POWs as well as POWs from the UK, France, Germany and Italy.

This is from the Red Cross itself. Would the Red Cross' own Webpage take this tone if it had not been satisfied with America's motives in connection with Guantanamo Bay?
What's fair is fair.
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 7):
yes, we get it, Slamclick.

No you don't. No more than my dog "gets" television.

The guy said my injuries didn't "hurt for six months" because I had a doctor.
I replied that I did not go to a doctor even with fairly serious injuries.
It is that simple.
The rest of your paragraph is just whiny crap so I won't comment on it unless you'd like me to.

I don't believe the assertion that one blow hurt for six months. It does not ring true. If it was written in a work of fiction the editor would "blue-pencil" it.

No matter what else happened to that guy he is a liar about that one thing.
He was trying to sway people with a lie, his personal version of "WMD" and he collected you and a few others.

Why is no one talking about his assertion that this happened in Syria? You know, "peaceful" "tolerant" Muslim Syria?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
baroque
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 14):
This is from the Red Cross itself. Would the Red Cross' own Webpage take this tone if it had not been satisfied with America's motives in connection with Guantanamo Bay?

In a word "YES". If it wants to get back in. You really have not been following this saga. Aside from the references that follow, try also FBI, Major Micheil Mori, and another lawyer whose name escapes me but this will keep you reading for a couple of hours.

"Red Cross Meets With 14 Moved to Guantanamo Bay By Josh White Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 13, 2006; Page A23

An International Committee of the Red Cross delegation that visited the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, met with the 14 detainees who had been held for years in secret CIA custody, the first time the alleged high-value terrorism suspects had contact with the outside world since their initial confinement."

Just 4 to 5 years late. Now from International Red Cross as opposed to American Red Cross.

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0...tention-update-121205?OpenDocument
Legal issues

"The detention of persons captured or arrested within the context of the "global war on terror" must take place within a clear and appropriate legal framework and the relevant procedural safeguards. Any person deprived of liberty cannot be detained and interrogated outside of an appropriate legal framework.

People held in connection with armed conflicts such as in Afghanistan fall under the regime of international humanitarian law (IHL) and should be treated accordingly. (See the relevance of IHL in the context of terrorism.)

Those persons detained outside of a situation of armed conflict have rights enshrined in a number of other bodies of law, such as international human rights law and relevant provisions of domestic law. The ICRC has adopted a case-by-case approach to qualifying situations arising from the "global war on terror" as an armed conflict or not and believes that the status of detainees should be determined based on the relevant rules. There are currently two broad strands of legal thinking: according to one, detainees in the "global war on terror" are all criminal suspects and should be treated as such. According to the other, they are all prisoners of war and should be treated as such. The ICRC does not share either of these views. It is clear that States may also detain persons for imperative reasons of security.

While the ICRC welcomes any development that leads to a clarification of the future of the detainees at Guantanamo, it does not believe that there is presently a legal regime that appropriately addresses either the detainees' status or the future of their detention.

Due to changed factual and legal circumstances since the launching of the "global war on terror", persons currently in US hands who are not released or tried must be put in another legal framework: i.e. provided an independent and impartial review of whether their continued detention for security reasons is justified.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.

People suspected of having committed war crimes or any other criminal offence can and should be prosecuted. But these individuals must be afforded essential judicial guarantees such as the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried by an impartial and independent tribunal, the right to qualified legal counsel and the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

The ICRC believes that uncertainty about the prisoners' fate has added to the mental and emotional strain experienced by many detainees and their families. "

If you read through the formality, they are annoyed, and this is Guantanamo, they cannot see the rendition prisoners - which is what this thread was about until you tried to hijack it.

So rendition access.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4512192.stm

"US bars access to terror suspects
A demonstration at the International Red Cross office in Gaza City
Red Cross workers visit detainees in 80 countries
The US has admitted for the first time that it has not given the Red Cross access to all detainees in its custody.

The state department's top legal adviser, John Bellinger, made the admission but gave no details about where such prisoners were held.

Correspondents say the revelation is likely to increase suspicion that the CIA has been operating secret prisons outside international oversight. "

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.o.../lofiversion/index.php/t44735.html
"December 10, 2005 U.S. Rebuffs Red Cross Request for Access to Detainees Held in Secret

By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 - The United States said Friday that it would continue to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to "a very small, limited number" of prisoners who are held in secret around the world, saying they are terrorists being kept incommunicado for reasons of national security and are not guaranteed any rights under the Geneva Conventions.

Adam Ereli, the State Department's deputy spokesman, said the United States would not alter its position after the president of the International Red Cross said in Geneva that his organization was holding discussions to gain access to all detainees, including those held in secret locations.

Mr. Ereli said that the Geneva Conventions requiring humane treatment of prisoners of war did not apply to certain terrorism suspects seized as "unlawful enemy combatants," but that, in any case, the United States treats most of them as prisoners of war."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510022005
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

"Guantánamo – an icon of lawlessness

Read the page

Or try Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:16 am

To be fair SlamClick - i agree with your viewpoint here mate.

I am extremely skeptical of this.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
I am extremely skeptical of this.

Could it be that some in this world are attempting to use the comparative handful of persons who have suffered the fate of "extraordinary rendition" as a black hole to suck up all the world's concern, indignation and care for human rights and store it all in some safe place AWAY FROM DARFUR?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
baroque
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Could it be that some in this world are attempting to use the comparative handful of persons who have suffered the fate of "extraordinary rendition" as a black hole to suck up all the world's concern, indignation and care for human rights and store it all in some safe place AWAY FROM DARFUR?

????????????????????????????????????????? Que?
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:13 am

Reminds me of a line from the Simpsons.

"No need to say any more, your tears say more than real evidence ever can"

I'd like to know why one of the big US media sources, filmakers, news producers, or newspapers/magazines have not picked this fellow up and done a huge expose on this - theres no doubt there is a Pulitzer in there for someone. America is not an evil nation and its people have a thirst for the truth - this would be a national issue on a scale not seen since Dreyfuss' "J'Accuse!" in France last century.

I think if this could be proven then some bright spark news mogul would go stratospheric. I want to see proof.

At the end of the day, if he was innocent and had no links to terrorism then he should have been able to prove it very quickly. It does not take 10 months to prove it if you are innocent. Im not saying he was guilty as i do not know the circumstances but respectfully, there is a great deal more to this that we are not being told.

The war on terrorism is the PR and TV war - remember that when reading sources like this.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
NoUFO
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
I think that appropriate context should be shown.

And what context exactly would justify what this man had witnessed?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
It does not take 10 months to prove it if you are innocent.

How naive. It can take a lot longer to prove you are innocent if you are being held custody in a country like Syria. You will probably not be able to prove you are innocent anyway, because, after torture and other forms of illtreatment, you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.
And authorities like such in Syria never err. Had this man's fate not triggered international efforts, he would still be in Syria or some other shitty place.

But let's assume for a moment he was not innocent. Would that justify torture in your book?

I find your comments not only illogical but cynical and disturbing. The fact alone that you felt the need to quote - of all things - the Simpsons, a slapstick comedy, makes your objection an exudate difficult to bear.
I support the right to arm bears
 
9V
Topic Author
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.

That is very true.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16):
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.
In an interview (19 October 2006) for the ICRC web site, the organization's President, Jakob Kellenberger, explains the ICRC's position on developments in US policy and legislation towards those detained in the fight against terrorism.

So it would appear that there is a conflict between the position of the International Red Cross and the implication of the information I found on the Red Cross's American site.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
And what context exactly would justify what this man had witnessed?

War.

"Justify", however, is a strong word. "Excuse" is perhaps better.

In war, mistakes happen. Often, people have to deal with it.

[Edited 2006-12-07 17:56:24]
What's fair is fair.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
But let's assume for a moment he was not innocent. Would that justify torture in your book?

Of course not.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
How naive. It can take a lot longer to prove you are innocent if you are being held custody in a country like Syria.

I presume you'll be releasing your memoirs of your time spent being tortured and trying to prove your innocence in Syrian prison, then?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
The fact alone that you felt the need to quote - of all things - the Simpsons, a slapstick comedy, makes your objection an exudate difficult to bear.

Hardly relevant considering the point was the quote not the person who said it.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
I find your comments not only illogical but cynical and disturbing.

Mate, theres not a damn thing wrong with cynicism. Theres a fine line i often cross between having an open mind and not automatically believing everything i see/hear, and outright cynicism. I freely admit i am very cynical. I'm cynical of everyone and everything though im no lover of Bush or Blair, but i'm equally cynical of everything spouted from the other side as well.

Whats illogical about what I said?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
you'll be happy to sign anything they give you, even your own death sentence, if only they stop torturing you.

Almost certainly you are correct. He still satisfied them of his innocence so that they let him go. How much difference did the confession make? None.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
????????????????????????????????????????? Que?

Let me make it real plain.

The liberals of the western world are all wrapped around the axle over a few hundred Muslims who might have been flown around the world and slapped a couple of times. (They DID release this guy and he is still ALIVE, and has ALL HIS BODY PARTS.)

They are indulging in all this concern because it is easier than caring about a million or so (dark-skinned) people being murdered by Islam in Darfur.

That plain enough?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
if he was innocent and had no links to terrorism then he should have been able to prove it very quickly.

That is the problem - you cannot prove a negative. He can't possibly "prove" he has no links to terrorism. Neither can I. That is why civilized nations require the burden of proof be on the accuser.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:31 am

For those interested in Mr. Arar's ordeal, I would suggest reading the official inquiry undertaken by the Canadian government, overseen by the Honourable Dennis R. O'Connor, Associate Chief Justice of Ontario.

Mr. Arar's story has been a big issue in the Canadian media for quite some time.

http://www.ararcommission.ca/
 
9V
Topic Author
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:44 am

Finally, the Commissioner found that both before and after Mr. Arar’s return to Canada, Canadian officials leaked confidential and sometimes inaccurate information about the case to the media for the purpose of damaging Mr.Arar’s reputation or protecting their self-interest or government interests.

Don't know about you but if that was me I'd be absolutely livid. I hope he got compensation.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 28):
Don't know about you but if that was me I'd be absolutely livid. I hope he got compensation.

It seems to me that he should also be most proud of his country and its many beautiful attributes. If not for Canadian tolerance and generosity, many people who are now Canadians would still be mired in their original countries of birth, suffering in unspeakable ways.

I think that demands against the Canadian government should be seen in the light of that government's extraordinary openness toward immigrants of all kinds, and I fear that there will be many who will object to any litigation against it that exists in derogation of that fact.

Canada's kindness toward immigrants exceeds that of even the United States, and for it to be sued in this manner may rub many the wrong way.
What's fair is fair.
 
NoUFO
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 24):
I presume you'll be releasing your memoirs of your time spent being tortured and trying to prove your innocence in Syrian prison, then?

Is this an attempt to be funny or to hide from telling us how you would prove your innocence?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 24):
Mate, theres not a damn thing wrong with cynicism.

Other than that your cynicism is contemptuous ....

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 24):
I'm cynical of everyone and everything though im no lover of Bush or Blair, but i'm equally cynical of everything spouted from the other side as well.

While there is nothing wrong with being sceptical, it seems to me that you use your cynicism to feel safe and comfy on your couch and pretend that the fate of individuals like Mr. Arar was none of your business.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
And what context exactly would justify what this man had witnessed?

War.
"Justify", however, is a strong word. "Excuse" is perhaps better.

Let's assume this really's a war, than war may explain why some ugly things happen, but those officials sat comfortably in a room at JFK not in a mud hole somewhere in no-man's-land with shells flying around. Same goes for those torturers in Syria, a country that actually supports terrorists more than battling against them.
Plus, this all happened (and may still happen) systematically, there's a method behind it; it wasn't one stressed-out soldier's irrational act.
So no, it's not exuseable.
I support the right to arm bears
 
DrDeke
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 25):
The liberals of the western world are all wrapped around the axle over a few hundred Muslims who might have been flown around the world and slapped a couple of times. (They DID release this guy and he is still ALIVE, and has ALL HIS BODY PARTS.)

They are indulging in all this concern because it is easier than caring about a million or so (dark-skinned) people being murdered by Islam in Darfur.

Right, so since Muslims are murdering and torturing people, we shouldn't worry about it when we torture people? Sounds like the old "BUT HE DID IT TOO!" excuse of a child.

-DrDeke
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AerospaceFan
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 31):
Right, so since Muslims are murdering and torturing people, we shouldn't worry about it when we torture people? Sounds like the old "BUT HE DID IT TOO!" excuse of a child.

We're not torturing anyone.
What's fair is fair.
 
DrDeke
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 32):
We're not torturing anyone.

Oh, right, I'm sorry; we just send suspects to other people who will do the torturing for us. I'm sure glad we do this; it really puts us back on the moral high ground.

 Yeah sure

-DrDeke
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 33):
Oh, right, I'm sorry; we just send suspects to other people who will do the torturing for us. I'm sure glad we do this; it really puts us back on the moral high ground.

How about if we criticize those who actually do the torturing?
What's fair is fair.
 
9V
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):

AerospaceFan,

Given your opinion on this, let's turn the tables. Imagine it's you that endured this horrific experience and not Maher Arar. Are you seriously saying you would be quite happy to walk away from it and not want any compensation? You would be happy to walk away and say the government was just doing it's job without feeling the slightest bit pissed off?


 Yeah sure
 
DrDeke
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 34):
How about if we criticize those who actually do the torturing?

Fine, but that doesn't excuse us from causing the torture to occur. That just isn't how it works.

If person A hires person B to kill person C, we don't only "criticize" (jail) person B, we throw person A in jail, too.

Yes, this is an effect of the civil legal system and I know you like to talk about how we are in a "war" so concepts from the civil justice system don't apply, but this is not just a matter of a justice system; it's common sense and morality.

-DrDeke

[Edited 2006-12-07 20:48:51]
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scbriml
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
making U.S. policy look bad

There's only one thing making US policy look bad. yes 

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 32):
We're not torturing anyone.

Of course not. You've outsourced it to those for whom its a core competency. Probably cheaper and more efficient. sarcastic 
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 36):
Yes, this is an effect of the civil legal system and I know you like to talk about how we are in a "war" so concepts from the civil justice system don't apply, but this is not just a matter of a justice system; it's common sense and morality

Are you telling me that things that are against "common sense and morality" haven't occurred during times of war?

Quoting 9V (Reply 35):
Given your opinion on this, let's turn the tables. Imagine it's you that endured this horrific experience and not Maher Arar. Are you seriously saying you would be quite happy to walk away from it and not want any compensation? You would be happy to walk away and say the government was just doing it's job without feeling the slightest bit pissed off?

That's not the issue. Of course I would be unhappy. But would I threaten to sue the government? Of course not.

Arar has actually sued the U.S. government, which was acting on information provided by the Canadians.

[Edited 2006-12-07 21:14:27]
What's fair is fair.
 
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 38):
But would I threaten to sue the government?

Well if it was me, I damn sure would!!
 
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 39):
Well if it was me, I damn sure would!!

I guess we're just different that way.
What's fair is fair.
 
SlamClick
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 37):
We're not torturing anyone.

Of course not. You've outsourced it to those for whom its a core competency. Probably cheaper and more efficient.

The UK, and liberals here in the US want to start outsourcing it as Canada, France and Germany did from the start. Spain started outsourcing it later.

How are they outsourcing it?

By letting the US deal with those nasty Muslim extremists for you. You are all glad we are doing it. You can distance yourselves from the nasty deeds, and you can despise the US for doing them for you. How wonderful for you all. You get terrorist organizations beheaded and eviscerated for you and your hands are clean.

That was my point about Darfur. Liberals in the UK, Canada, Germany, Spain and France don't really, deep down in their caucasian hearts give a good goddamn about all the darkies being slaughtered there because you don't have any idea whatever how to go about feeding and caring for them if they did survive.


So by all means, devote all the airtime, all the column-inches, all the bandwidth, banners and signs to the plight of a few dozen extraordinarily-rendered Muslims who chose not to live in Muslim countries. It keeps attention focused somewhere other than Darfur.

Sorry if I get harsh but I cannot abide hipocrisy.
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:31 am

I've been sick and tired of all the carping from the left about how the U.S. is the "bad guy" in relation to the war against terror, when indeed it is clear to everyone that the U.S. has done the heavy lifting to combat the worst of terror on the international scale.

Let's take a look at Afghanistan, for example, and how even some of our NATO allies have failed to live up to their promises. This unconscionable shortfall is something that the U.S. has always been far too polite to press to the degree necessary, but if I were in charge, I would ask with far greater urgency that our friends and allies honor their obligations rather than leave so much of the bill -- the bill in terms of blood and treasure -- to good ol' Uncle Sam.

Mind you, I appreciate the assistance and contributions of our friends, however small or large the amounts, but when people start criticizing the United States for individual errors committed during the war against terror, I think it becomes fair game to point out that certain other nations have, in this case, fallen far short of what is their due, and that they seem to remain content to allow this to be so while America withstands the full brunt of abuse for whatever it is that we strive to do. It is at times like these that I feel that this kind of attention is far too much to bear in silence when people like Arar become the darlings of the mainstream media.

[Edited 2006-12-07 21:33:56]
What's fair is fair.
 
9V
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
people like Arar become the darlings of the mainstream media.

Believe me, I am not a Liberal! I loathe terrorists as much as the next guy. But what happened to Maher Arar was a total disgrace and it makes me want to visit the US less and less if that is your attitude.
 
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 43):
But what happened to Maher Arar was a total disgrace and it makes me want to visit the US less and less if that is your attitude.

Believe me -- unless your government is going to provide inaccurate information about you that paints you as a terrorist threat, you have virtually zero chance as an ordinary person of being renditioned by our government. In fact, based on recent reports, you might have a similar chance of being affected by poison intended for a Russian ex-spy. So where's the outrage against Russia?

[Edited 2006-12-07 21:47:04]
What's fair is fair.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
Let's take a look at Afghanistan, for example, and how even some of our NATO allies have failed to live up to their promises.

Afghanistan was invaded by Coalition troops because the Taliban gave al-Qaeda, the ones who attacked the U.S. on 9/11, a safe-haven. So far so good. The whole problem started when the U.S. diverted its attention (and forces) to focus on Iraq, an issue on which many NATO allies did not agree and rightfully so. Some of those NATO allies, some with a long-standing friendship with the U.S. as a nation, strongly adviced not to invade Iraq as this, given the instability of the region and the sectarial differences inside the country, would in the long-term make it much harder (if at all feasible) to win the Global War on Terror.

Now take a good look at the situation we (the World) are in today? Are we winning the War on Terror? No. Has al-Qaeda been defeated? No. Has support for al-Qaeda and its' objectives decreased? No. Is the region stable? No. Is Iraq stable? No. Have other "Axis-Of-Evil" nations been dealt with? No. Do we have a good political, diplomatic and/or military position regarding these other "Axis-Of-Evil" nations? No.

The U.S. had almost the entire world's support after 9/11 to effectively deal with al-Qaeda terrorism. Much could have been achieved if its political leaders had not decided to make a disastrous detour into Iraq early in the Afghanistan-campaign. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Despite many efforts by U.S. allies to warn the U.S. of the disastrous consequences of invading Iraq under the guise of the "War on Terror", the U.S. went ahead. And now some in the U.S. want to blame those allies for the disaster Iraq, the region and the entire world is today. Wow!
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 45):
Afghanistan was invaded by Coalition troops because the Taliban gave al-Qaeda, the ones who attacked the U.S. on 9/11, a safe-haven. So far so good. The whole problem started when the U.S. diverted its attention (and forces) to focus on Iraq, an issue on which many NATO allies did not agree and rightfully so. Some of those NATO allies, some with a long-standing friendship with the U.S. as a nation, strongly adviced not to invade Iraq as this, given the instability of the region and the sectarial differences inside the country, would in the long-term make it much harder (if at all feasible) to win the Global War on Terror.

Now take a good look at the situation we (the World) are in today? Are we winning the War on Terror? No. Has al-Qaeda been defeated? No. Has support for al-Qaeda and its' objectives decreased? No. Is the region stable? No. Is Iraq stable? No. Have other "Axis-Of-Evil" nations been dealt with? No. Do we have a good political, diplomatic and/or military position regarding these other "Axis-Of-Evil" nations? No.

The U.S. had almost the entire world's support after 9/11 to effectively deal with al-Qaeda terrorism. Much could have been achieved if its political leaders had not decided to make a disastrous detour into Iraq early in the Afghanistan-campaign. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Despite many efforts by U.S. allies to warn the U.S. of the disastrous consequences of invading Iraq under the guise of the "War on Terror", the U.S. went ahead. And now some in the U.S. want to blame those allies for the disaster Iraq, the region and the entire world is today. Wow!

Except that I was talking about Afghanistan, not the general context of the war against terror. What's the excuse for not helping out to the extent promised in Afghanistan?
What's fair is fair.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 42):
Let's take a look at Afghanistan, for example, and how even some of our NATO allies have failed to live up to their promises. This unconscionable shortfall is something that the U.S. has always been far too polite to press to the degree necessary, but if I were in charge, I would ask with far greater urgency that our friends and allies honor their obligations rather than leave so much of the bill -- the bill in terms of blood and treasure -- to good ol' Uncle Sam.

Mind you, I appreciate the assistance and contributions of our friends, however small or large the amounts, but when people start criticizing the United States for individual errors committed during the war against terror, I think it becomes fair game to point out that certain other nations have, in this case, fallen far short of what is their due, and that they seem to remain content to allow this to be so while America withstands the full brunt of abuse for whatever it is that we strive to do. It is at times like these that I feel that this kind of attention is far too much to bear in silence when people like Arar become the darlings of the mainstream media.

Canada has been pressing NATO allies for sometime now for more help in the south yet many are unwilling to lift any of the caveats governing their roles in Afghanistan.
 
pbottenb
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:16 am

From the thred starter:

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
Canadian citizen Maher Arar is barred from entering the United States.

Quote:
My nightmare began on September 26, 2002. I was transiting through New York airport, JFK Airport, when they asked me to wait in a waiting area...

This is NOT Extraordinary Rendition, this is a legal deportion of a Syrian citizen to his country of origin, based on information provided by the Canadian govt.

A definition of extraordinary rendition can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Terminology

Rendition is a covert operation under which even an innocent person may be forcibly transferred to a state where he has committed no crime. It is like a bully dispatching a helpless prey to another bully in another town."
"Rendition is not even deportation. A person may be deported under US immigration laws for a variety of reasons including charges of terrorism. Deportation however implies that the person is in the United States. Rendition is not territorial.

The US deports people like this to their home countries every single day.

get over it
 
NoUFO
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RE: The Horrors Of Extraordinary Rendition

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 44):
So where's the outrage against Russia?

But people are outraged. More importantly you are still trying to excuse the inexcusable by pointing your finger to other countries. You may have a point by saying that other countries make mistakes too, or don't live up to their promises, but with regards to Mr Arar's case, this is totally irrelevant.

What exactly do you want? That people sweep "rendition flights" under the carpet as long as Germans are not willing to deploy more soldiers to south Afghanistan or as long as some Russians are allegedly poisoning members of the the Russian opposition? What kind of logic is that?

[Edited 2006-12-07 22:33:15]
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