Tom in NO
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Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:19 am

(didn't see this posted on any a.net forum: here, Civ-Av, or Military)

Today is the 65th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese Navy.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/07/pearl.harbor.ap/index.html

RIP, those who perished at Pearl, and those who perished from the resulting World War II.

Tom at MSY
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NIKV69
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:55 am

R.I.P

It's these men that gave the ultimate sacrifice for us. So we could live in this great country.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:01 am

Salute to "The Greatest Generation" and all those that fought and died - on any side - at Pearl Harbor.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:22 am

To those who lost their lives so suddenly and without warning on that day, may you continue to rest in peace.

To those who lost their lives in the subsequent battles that ensued, to you we are thankful for the brave sacrifices you made. To those who fought and were lucky enough to return alive, thanks for sacrificing those years with your wives and children. To those who fought and died, thanks for sacrificing your lives so that the rest of us could enjoy freedom and liberty.

Having visited the Pearl Harbour memorial a couple of times, I was moved on both occasions by the enormity of what happened. The fact that the USS Arizona is still so clearly visible below the waterline, and still leaks drops of oil to the surface, is a stark reminder of how brutal the day of infamy was.

To all men and women who have served in the past or who are currently serving, I salute you. Thank you for your service.

And to our a.net friend in Iraq - keep fighting the good fight, and come back home safely. Good luck and God speed.
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TNNH
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:35 am

look at how prosporous of a reltionship we now share with Japan, a wonderful, modern, and innovative society and one of America's closest and most cherished friends.

perhaps our enemies today can take note in the fact that working peacefully and co-operatively with the our great notion has time and again benefitted this planet in ways too innumerable to count.
 
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 3):

Very nice post, I agree completely

God bless our heroes who died fighting so bravely. RIP

And God Bless the Veterans.

Godspeed to those fighting, you make us proud. Please come home safe.

Dave
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Aaron747
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:52 am

Interesting post TNNH.

The importance of the overall quality of the Japanese people cannot be emphasized enough in understanding the way the postwar relationship developed.

Our enemies today are in a completely different, much less incomparable, category.
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9V
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:57 am

Have a look at THESE "Never seen before" pictures.  

[Edited 2006-12-07 22:03:41]
 
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bwest
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Thread starter):
and those who perished from the resulting World War II.

Not to be nitpicking, but World War II was underway for 2 years already... september 1, 1939: Nazi Germany invades Poland, as a reaction, the UK & France declare war...
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IFEMaster
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 7):
Have a look at THESE "Never seen before" pictures.

Several of those pictures are display at the Pearl Harbor Museum, but they are still quite shocking to see. At the harbor today, there is very little to indicate that it was once the scene of such devastation, and to be able to put these pictures in perspective to the lay of the land is quite fascinating. Looking at the various people in the shots, you can almost see the shock on their faces at what is unfolding before them. Thanks for posting, 9V.
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RIXrat
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:55 am

Pearl Harbor, an attack which will "live in infamy" according to Roosevelt! Too many people tend to forget that the U.S. lost almost as many people in the Pearl Harbor attack as they lost in the 9/11 attacks. I salute someone who reminds us in photos regarding the terrible attack on Pearl Harbor.
 
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting 9V (Reply 7):

Very interesting link.

Thanks !
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Thread starter):
RIP, those who perished at Pearl, and those who perished from the resulting World War II.

Tom at MSY



Quoting Bwest (Reply 8):
Not to be nitpicking, but World War II was underway for 2 years already... september 1, 1939: Nazi Germany invades Poland, as a reaction, the UK & France declare war...

Was gonna say the same thing...

Tragic day nonetheless...
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Aaron747
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:16 pm

Not to be nitpicking, but World War II was underway for 2 years already

Not to nitpick further but...Japan attacked Chinese forces near Beijing on July 7, 1937 with forces staged in Manchuria, which itself had been occupied since 1931. The war in Asia was quite long.
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Venus6971
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:01 pm

Some of the buildings on Hickam AFB still have the chips in the cement from Japenese straifing runs.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:01 pm

The people killed in Pearl Harbour were not the first Americans to be killed in WW2. Starting in 1939, there existed an unofficial battle between the US Navy escorting convoys to Britain in the Western Atlantic ocean and German submarines. During this time several American warships have been sunk, including the destroyer Reuben James.
I also remember having heard about an incident in China in the 1930s, where an American gun boat patroling the Yangtse river was attacked by Japanese forces.

This doesn't include the American volunteers who fought in China, Spain and Britain from 1935 to 1941 (including American pilots who volunteered to fight in the RAF during the Batle of Britain).

Jan
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saintsman
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:07 pm

Unfortunately I'm unaware of the history behind this attack. What were the Americans doing to cause Japan to strike in the first place?

Please note this is not a USA bashing question.
 
L-188
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 16):
What were the Americans doing to cause Japan to strike in the first place?

The Japanese had eyes on southwest asia, rubber in Malaya, Oil in Burma and Vietnam.

The US presence in the Phillipines was a threat to their expanisons. Those forces would be reinforced by the fleet that had been moved from San Diego to Pearl.

Destroy the Fleet and you can isolate the Phillipines.
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 16):
Unfortunately I'm unaware of the history behind this attack. What were the Americans doing to cause Japan to strike in the first place?

Please note this is not a USA bashing question.

In the late 1920s Japan was defacto taken over by an ultranationalist military junta, which declared that it ruled in the emperor's name, through political assasinations (often caried out by Yakuza gangsters) and pressure on opposition politicians (who were arrested by a "thought police", killed or imprisoned). The aim of the junta was build up a colonial empire, mostly centered around Korea, Taiwan, Mandshuria and the raw meterials rich regions of northern China. They also had an eye on eastern Siberia.
China at this time was embroiled in civil war with several warlords and considered weak, as was the early Soviet Union. Korea and Taiwan were already occupied since the early 20th century.

In the mid 1930 Japan, which as a WW1 winning power had a share in the administration of the multinational city of Shanghai, staged a faked attack on a Japanese train and used this as a pretext to declare war on China (quite similar to the fake attack on a German radio transmitter close to the Polish border by German troops dressed in polish uniforms, which gave the pretext of Hitler's invasion of Poland).
Japan found itself soon stuck in a prolonged guerilla war and reacted ultrabrutal (e.g. the Rape of Nanking). This caused the US government to take opposition to Japan in two ways:
1) a ban on Japanese immigration to the US, which was an important safety valve to the overpopulated Japanese islands (Interestingly most Japanese immigrants to the US firmly supported the US in WW2 and, after initial internments, volunteered in big numbers to join the US forces, the Nissei Battalion, made up of ethnic Japanese soldiers prooved itself fighting in Italy against the Germans).
2) An embargo of American oil and scrap steel.

Since Japan has no oil of it's own, the boycott was soon felt, especially the Japanese Navy was increasingly being immobilised due to lack of fuel.
So the Japanese government started eying the oil fields in the then Dutch colony of Indonesia. To get them and to clear the supply lines back to Japan the British colony Malaysia (which also housed the largest rubber plantations in the world back then) and the American colony of the Philippines were in the way. Especially the US could reinforce the Philippines using the battleships based in Pearl Harbor and from the Philippines attack the Japanese forces on the way to Indonesia. So to secure the lines of communication for an invasion of Indonesia, both the British and Americans had to go.
Simultanious with the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese attacked Hong Kong, Singapore and the Philippines.
In the beginning the Japanese could count on anti European and anti white feelings in the population of the South East Asian countries, which evaporated fast when it was seen that the Japanese were much more brutal than the original colonial powers.
The biggest mistake the Japanese made in Pearl Harbor was that they attacked the American battleships, but missed the aircraft carriers, which were just out of port on an exercise. These aircraft carriers later gave the Japanese Navy a heavy blow at Midway and finally stopped Japanese expansion southwards in the Battle of the Coral Sea north of Australia.


Jan
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bwest
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Not to nitpick further but...Japan attacked Chinese forces near Beijing on July 7, 1937 with forces staged in Manchuria, which itself had been occupied since 1931. The war in Asia was quite long.

Depends ofcourse how you define the second World War...

Usually the term is applied to the war between the Axis forces and the Allied forces. When the Japanese Empire invaded China, it wasn't part of the Axis forces yet, as they only became a "member" in 1940. There was also little or no official reaction to the invasion, and there was no formation of an Allied army to help the Chinese.

When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, the international reaction did come, with France and Britain (and some former British Colonies) declaring war on the Axis forces (at that time only Nazi Germany & Italy), though those Allied forces couldn't (or didn't want to) sent troops in time to assist the Polish forces.

The US congress choose to remain "neutral", though as of 1941 they did assist Britain with financial and materiel support.
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):

Good stuff. Thank you
 
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:09 pm

BTW, in 1937 the Japanese made several attempts to invade Siberia from China, but received very bloody noses from Soviet troops lead by a General Chukov. This severe beating caused the Japanese not to invade Russia from the East on Hitler's request in 1941, which in turn enabled Stalin to free the Siberian troops guarding the Chinese border to use them to stop the German advance on Moskow.General Chukov later became a Field Marshall and was later know as the man who led the forces which captured Berlin.

Jan
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Aaron747
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:41 pm

Excellent synopsis Jan.

The nisei soldiers of the 442nd infantry you refer to were the most highly decorated US unit in the European theater. It has been well established that their dedication and resolve stemmed from protest against the US government's internment of nisei citizens.

Among other Japanese mistakes early on, they not only didn't destroy the existing US carriers, they failed to develop a sizable fleet of their own. Early war planners in the Japanese navy insisted on the completion of marquee battleships Yamato and Musashi, both of which were well known internally to be nothing more than pork projects for naval shipbuilders well connected to the military junta. The lack of planning for the air war in the Pacific hampered any possibility of success from the outset.

There were a number of other interesting failings as well - in direct parallel to similar goings-on in Germany's mid-30s witch hunt against Jewish scientists, many of Japan's finest young engineering talent were forced into infantry service, robbing their scientific corps of many chances to further develop weapons technology that could have better aided the campaign.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:11 pm

Generally the Japanese Navy was more open to new ideas than the Army which was completely stuck in medieval ideas.
Treatment of Japanese soldiers was bad, recruits got routinely beaten up by their NCOs and veteran comrades.
It was Japanese doctrine that the army on the march should live of the land, e.g. by looting , to keep logistics simple.
Japanese recruits often came under immense peer pressure in their combat units and often had to prove their willingness to unconditionally obey orders by e.g. bayonetting prisoners Japanese soldiers were treated badly and handed down this treatment to prisoners and civilians alike.

It is especially surprising, since in WW! the Japanese forces, as part of the Allies, were exemplry in obeying the Geneva Conventions.

Jan
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strasserb
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:12 pm

God bless your heros.
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bwest
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:17 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
It is especially surprising, since in WW! the Japanese forces, as part of the Allies, were exemplry in obeying the Geneva Conventions.

Befehl ist Befehl?

If your commanders order you to respect the rules of the Geneva convention, a well trained soldier will do so. If your commanders give the signal that you can happily ignore all international conventions, the well trained soldier will again obey... often setting aside personal moral objections...
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:24 pm

A very sad day indeed, God Bless those who perished that day. But what's sadder was that atrocious film starring Ben Afleck about Pearl Harbor. You think they could have made a better movie to honor such an important day in our nation's history.

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NAV20
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
Among other Japanese mistakes early on, they not only didn't destroy the existing US carriers, they failed to develop a sizable fleet of their own.

It was sheer luck that the carriers were off delivering aircraft to Midway, instead of in harbour, Aaron747. Given that the Strike Force sailed on 26th. November, and maintained wireless silence thereafter, there was no way they could have known that the carriers were away, they just had to attack as planned.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
The lack of planning for the air war in the Pacific hampered any possibility of success from the outset.

Japan did not 'prepare' for the war at all. The Japanese leaders worked on the assumption that if they grabbed a lot of territory, the Allies (in particular the USA) would not face the all-out war necessary to win it back and would instead sue for peace. So they would be able to negotiate a deal under which they kept most of it.

Hitler's gang worked on the same principle. They never prepared for a long war. They fully expected Britain to make peace after France surrendered in 1940. When Britain didn't, there was nothing that the Nazis could do; they had no navy of any consequence left after Norway, and no capacity to mount a seaborne invasion either.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 27):
Japan did not 'prepare' for the war at all. The Japanese leaders worked on the assumption that if they grabbed a lot of territory, the Allies (in particular the USA) would not face the all-out war necessary to win it back and would instead sue for peace. So they would be able to negotiate a deal under which they kept most of it.

there were misconceptions within all involved countries, often bordering on racisim. I just watched a documentary about the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales near Singapore. There the British veterans interviewed told that they completely underestimated the Japanese. For them back then they were funny little shortsighted men and being non-caucasian, they just had to be inferior. It was even the official opinion that the eyes of most Japanese were bad and therefore, according to this opinion they were not supposed to be able to aim a rifle. After the defeats in 1941-1942 the opinion went to the opposite, declaring Japanese soldiers to be virtual supermen, especially in a jungle enviroment, which they were not. They were able though to sustain on very little food and logistical support, beside ammo, since they had been trained to live of the land.
Also the Japanese airforce and naval aviation was underestimated. In 1940-1941 the Zero fighter was much more advanced than what the US military had to offer, though later the Americans caught up and surpassed the Japanese.

At the same time the Japanese military junta though democracy to be a sign of weakness, Europeans and Americans decadent, lacking the Yamato Spirit, and easy to defeat. Interestingly the commander of the Japanese force, which attacked Pearl Harbor, Yamamoto, was stricktly against the attack. Having lived in the US for several years he was, unlike the army general Tojo and defacto military dictator of Japan, familiar with American culture and realised that such an attack would wake a sleeping giant.
He openly said that all he possibly could deliver was a fast victory in a battle through surprise, but he could not decide the war.

Jan
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baroque
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
The war in Asia was quite long.

Indeed, all too long - but alas, later wars have been even longer.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):
Quoting Saintsman (Reply 16): What were the Americans doing to cause Japan to strike in the first place?

The Japanese had eyes on southwest asia, rubber in Malaya, Oil in Burma and Vietnam.



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
2) An embargo of American oil and scrap steel.

It was the oil embargo wot dun it! Which, once the torpedoes had been fixed, gave the US the key to winning the war, sink the Japanese tanker fleet, which was duly done. This was arguably the most successful tactic on any side during WWII. With bug-free torpedoes from day 1, would WWII against Japan have lasted into 1945, I doubt it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 27):
Hitler's gang worked on the same principle. They never prepared for a long war.

And they did not put their economy on a war footing until 1942 to early 1943. Which might hold some modern lessons too! If you are going to fight a war, you need an economic structure to support it.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 27):
Hitler's gang worked on the same principle. They never prepared for a long war.

And they did not put their economy on a war footing until 1942 to early 1943. Which might hold some modern lessons too! If you are going to fight a war, you need an economic structure to support it.

But a war economy requires sacrifices from almost everyone in the population, e.g. no more consumer goods being manufactured, food and other goods being rationed etc..
This is not very poular and can get even a dictator into trouble. Hitler tried to keep the homefront to be as normal as possible until it was not possible anymore, hence Goebbel's "total war" speech.

Jan
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
This was arguably the most successful tactic on any side during WWII.

Inclined to agree, Baroque. But I also have tremendous respect for the way in which the US Navy, from a 'standing start' and minus the battleships on which all naval tactics had been based for a hundred years or more, developed the principle of the Carrier Striking Force and, in less than a year, stopped the Japanese Navy in its tracks and began rolling them back.

Halsey and Macarthur grabbed all the credit for the Pacific campaign. But the guy who developed the carrier-based tactics, was in effective charge of all the early battles - Coral Sea, Midway, and the Guadalcanal campaign - and saw things right through to the end, was actually someone most people probably haven't heard of.

That man was Admiral Jack Fletcher. Glad to have this chance to pay tribute to him:-

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/fj-fletc.htm

[Edited 2006-12-08 14:31:43]
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baroque
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
This is not very poular and can get even a dictator into trouble. Hitler tried to keep the homefront to be as normal as possible until it was not possible anymore, hence Goebbel's "total war" speech.

This is all very true, and in the end putting the economy on a war footing would not have helped the Third Reich except to last a little longer. But it was a marked contrast to UK practices from really early days. Look at relative fighter production during the Battle of Britain.

An earlier war footing might, however, have made things generally more unpleasant for the allies, earlier Me262s (although the engine was not really ready), more He177s which were a real pain to both sides - to the Germans because they were unreliable and to the Brits because they were a bit on the fast side. The last stick of bombs I heard almost certainly came from an He177. Better and more night fighters might have caused Harris to call things off - it got close at times, just after the first big Berlin campaign for example.

These days rationing and war materials are not likely to be critical factors, but financing will be. At this stage it is difficult to predict the effects of the noughties wars on the US finances, but they took a big hit from the Vietnam war which was probably not as expensive. An invasion of Iran would alter matters and the US could then easily find itself in a similar position to Japan in 1941.
 
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:59 pm

It's an event that Americans should never, ever forget, for a lot of reasons, the primary reason being not to forget the brave men who died that day as the United States finally entered the bloodiest war this planet has ever seen.

May those who perished that day RIP, and may they be comforted by the fact that their sacrifice was not in vain.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
That man was Admiral Jack Fletcher. Glad to have this chance to pay tribute to him:-

I have heard of Admiral Fletcher, but, in my mind, the man that turned the tide in the Pacific War was Ray Spruance. One, because the Japanese were expecting Halsey to be at Midway, and secondly, simply because Spruance had a brilliant mind and was great at what he did.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
These days rationing and war materials are not likely to be critical factors, but financing will be. At this stage it is difficult to predict the effects of the noughties wars on the US finances, but they took a big hit from the Vietnam war which was probably not as expensive. An invasion of Iran would alter matters and the US could then easily find itself in a similar position to Japan in 1941.

Germany had hyperinflation in the years between the end of WW2 and the introduction of the Deutschmark. Hitler financed his war by running the money printing press and by stealing from occupied countries. This resulted, at the end of the war, in the Reichsmark having no value at all. The inofficial currency in postwar Germany were cigarettes, preferably American brands like Lucky Strike. The shops were empty, quite a few farmers got filthy rich selling foods illegally to city dwellers at black market prices in exchange for their valuables. Couriously when the DM was introduced in 1948 the shops were suddenly full of goods overnight, which the dealers kept back before because they didn't want to sell them for worthless money.
The introduction of the DM meant also that many ordinary people lost all their savings, since every citizen only received 50 DM per person. All savings were suddenly worthless. On the other hand people who owned real estate or businesses kept their investments.

Jan
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Venus6971
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Better and more night fighters might have caused Harris to call things off - it got close at times, just after the first big Berlin campaign for example.

During the battle of Britain the turning point was when the Luftwaffe started to bomb London instead of keeping the attack on the RAF bases. That was when the battle was lost, the crippled RAF couldn't have fought effectively from it's Northren bases if the Southern east Anglian bases were wiped out.
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baroque
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
Inclined to agree, Baroque. But I also have tremendous respect for the way in which the US Navy, from a 'standing start' and minus the battleships on which all naval tactics had been based for a hundred years or more, developed the principle of the Carrier Striking Force and, in less than a year, stopped the Japanese Navy in its tracks and began rolling them back.

The carrier groups were impressive and so was the speed of their development, but without oil tankers, the Japanese fleet was going nowhere. They were even basing it out of Tarakan because the light Tarakan oil could be put straight in the bunkers. Spruance/Fletch take your pick a bit and more likely both, but it was NOT Halsey!

If the US torpedoes had worked in 1942, the naval war would have been a great deal easier.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 35):
During the battle of Britain the turning point was when the Luftwaffe started to bomb London instead of keeping the attack on the RAF bases. That was when the battle was lost, the crippled RAF couldn't have fought effectively from it's Northern bases if the Southern east Anglian bases were wiped out.

True, London was too tempting a target, but they would never have been able to attack the East Anglian bases successfully with the Bf109s as escort. So London (and to some extent Kent) could have been defended from those bases to the north and west of London. Once Fw190s appeared later it would have been different, but by then so was British air defence.
 
baroque
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
Inclined to agree, Baroque. But I also have tremendous respect for the way in which the US Navy, from a 'standing start' and minus the battleships on which all naval tactics had been based for a hundred years or more, developed the principle of the Carrier Striking Force and, in less than a year, stopped the Japanese Navy in its tracks and began rolling them back.

The carrier groups were impressive and so was the speed of their development, but without oil tankers, the Japanese fleet was going nowhere. They were even basing it out of Tarakan because the light Tarakan oil could be put straight in the bunkers. Spruance/Fletch take your pick a bit and more likely both, but it was NOT Halsey!

If the US torpedoes had worked in 1942, the naval war would have been a great deal easier.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 35):
During the battle of Britain the turning point was when the Luftwaffe started to bomb London instead of keeping the attack on the RAF bases. That was when the battle was lost, the crippled RAF couldn't have fought effectively from it's Northern bases if the Southern east Anglian bases were wiped out.

True, London was too tempting a target, but they would never have been able to attack the East Anglian bases successfully with the Bf109s as escort. So London (and to some extent Kent) could have been defended from those bases to the north and west of London. Once Fw190s appeared later it would have been different, but by then so was British air defence.
 
ANCFlyer
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 14):
Some of the buildings on Hickam AFB still have the chips in the cement from Japenese straifing runs.

Schoefield Barracks as well . . . I've seen them.

Also force marched up Kole Kole Pass, a pass through the Wainae Mountains where some of the planes came through.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
That man was Admiral Jack Fletcher. Glad to have this chance to pay tribute to him:-

I have heard of Admiral Fletcher, but, in my mind, the man that turned the tide in the Pacific War was Ray Spruance. One, because the Japanese were expecting Halsey to be at Midway, and secondly, simply because Spruance had a brilliant mind and was great at what he did.

NAV20: Frank Jack Fletcher actually  wink 

Falcon: Exactly Ray Spruance was a brilliant tactician . . . he handed the Japanese carriers their asses at Midway - barely 6 months after Pearl . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
BMIFlyer
Posts: 8065
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:04 am

Yes, a very big salute to all those who fought in that battle.

The BBC has this article.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...ember/7/newsid_3494000/3494108.stm



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:17 pm

God Bless the Men who died for their country that day. Visiting Pearl is sad, but worth every moment once their.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:16 pm

Well, my grandpa decided to take the week off that week and marry my grandma. Their anniversary is Dec 3, 1941. His ship was the Ogallala. Everyone he worked with died and all of his stuff gone. So I guess that could be part of how I exist today...
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:48 pm

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 41):
His ship was the Ogallala.

Sadly the Ogallala is still in trouble, unless you are in Nebraska!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer

Nice to hear that his absence that day has to an a.netter!

Sorry about the double post earlier, the a.net server seemed to do odd things.
 
sunking737
Posts: 1114
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RE: Pearl Harbor Bombed 65 Years Ago Today

Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:14 pm

One of my high school teachers was aboard the USS Nevada on that morning.
All the history classes used to come to the JROTC area to hear him speak about that morning.

Thanks to LCDR Roy Johnson US Navy (ret) for all he did while in the Navy and for all he taught us in school.
Just an MSPAVGEEK

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