SFOMEX
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Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:48 am

Just in CNN. The dictator has passed away.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:51 am

Sad on so many levels.

So many questions will never be answered.
You can't cure stupid
 
trekster
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:00 am

Scolling breaking news on bbc.co.uk

.
Where does the time go???
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
The dictator has passed away.

Well he finally did something useful.

Much as I hate wishing death upon anybody, that man was evil and the atrocious things he did unforgivable.

Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
alphafloor
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:18 am

The news is big... I'm receiving phonecalls by many relatives and friends to comment. My family has suffered a lot due to this bastard. I hope there will be no mess in Chile now with the funeral.
Whatever
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:25 am

Yay ! Good riddance.
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:48 am

Good riddance asshole. Enjoy eternity in hell.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:59 am

Sad. He should have had to publicly pay for his crimes. Its unfortunate that Chilean society was never capable of bringing him to trial. Death is the easy way out.

-A.
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LTU932
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:01 am

Good Riddance! While it's sad he isn't alive to answer for the murders he had ordered during his dictatorship, I'm not shedding one single tear for that asshole and I'm happy that he died.

Que te quemes en el infierno, Pinochet! May you burn in hell, Pinochet!
 
teva
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:01 am

Champagne !!!!!
My bottle is ready since last week. I can open it now!
Teva
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Klaus
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:27 am

Just on this occasion I wished there was such a thing as an afterlife in hell.  gnasher 

I guess we'll have to content ourselves with cursing his memory instead.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:35 am

I hope he suffered hard.

Never do you want to wish someone to suffer during death, but I think this is one of those times we can excuse ourselves from that 'rule'.

Rot in hell asshole.

1011yyz
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Stratofish
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:05 am

Good Riddance!

The question now is if they will give him some kind of "official" funeral to appease his followers (why he still got so many is totally beyond me).

I hope Chile's darkest era has now ended by all means.
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aloges
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:18 am

No tears shed here, but if there's a God judging Pinochet, may he have mercy even on that man's soul.

I'm sure Chile will "heal", if you will, the wounds that are still open and begin a better future for its people.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Magyarorszag
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 11):
Sad. He should have had to publicly pay for his crimes.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Good Riddance! While it's sad he isn't alive to answer for the murders he had ordered during his dictatorship

I couldn't say it better!
 
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:32 am

I hope that for the sake of the country, President Michelle Bachelet, herself a dissident of the Pinochet regime who lived a few years in East Germany in exile, decides that he does NOT get a state funeral. I also hope the Chilean Military will NOT give him a military funeral. Anything else would mean that he gets honours and Pinochet is NOT an honourable person, but a murderer and dictator.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:33 am

At last, and thank the lord  Smile

I'm not sorry to see him go....



Lee
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Asturias
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:29 am

I shed no tears for his passing. He was a regular bastard and deserved to rot in prison for what he did to his people.

However, his people chose to let him get old and die instead. It was their choice.

He will burn in Hell for eternity, I am sure.

Asturias
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miamiair
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:53 am

I wonder what people will say of Fidel Castro when he goes? Pinochet was an alterboy next to him.
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yyz717
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 24):
I wonder what people will say of Fidel Castro when he goes? Pinochet was an alterboy next to him.

Exactly. While Pinochet's human rights abuses were inexcusable, they were no worse than those of any other Latin American dictator. In this regard, he was a typical Latin American leader.

What Pinochet did do well was implement free market reforms which has helped Chile build a strong economy in the last 30 years that is the envy of Latin America. Pinochet was also a strong supporter of the UK in the Falklands war.

If Pinochet is to be villified for his human rights record, then he should also be praised for his pro-market reforms.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
If Pinochet is to be villified for his human rights record, then he should also be praised for his pro-market reforms.

In other words, it's OK to kill and "disappear" thousands of people as long as you privatise the railways and make rich people richer. What a humanitarian !

 Yeah sure
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yyz717
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:48 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 26):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
If Pinochet is to be villified for his human rights record, then he should also be praised for his pro-market reforms.

In other words, it's OK to kill and "disappear" thousands of people as long as you privatise the railways and make rich people richer. What a humanitarian !

Pinochet's human rights record was no worse than any other dictator in Latin America in that period. However, his ground breaking free market reforms at least brought relative wealth to Chile.

As I said, his human rights abuses were inexcusable, but Chile's strong economy today is due to his reforms. This latter point actually will be his primary legacy.

A balanced review of Pinochet will acknowledge his good running of the Chilean economy, while villifying his human rights abuses, as I am doing.

Kind regards
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Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:52 am

Well, to be honest I don't desire him to burn in hell, or a hard death.

I just sorry for this country which was unable to judge him and make him pay for all the abuses and atrocities of his regime. I feel shamed to see some of my country people actually mourning him.

Anyway, the so called economy miracle would be nothing without our democratic governments keeping the right path. He had nobody to oppose to his ideas and many, many of his government's great ideas are now revealing how unfortunate they were: education, administrative organization, that horrible constitution of ours, etc.

But he's gone. Rest in Peace, at least his mourners will know where to cry for him. Thousands of mothers, sons and wives aren't that lucky, for they'll never know what happened with their beloved ones.

Nothing to celebrate, no hard desired here. Pinochet; just die and be grateful for your damn good luck. I hope you finally realized everything...

Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 28):

Very civilized and moderate post ! I can't expect anything else coming from you.
Thanks for using your brain instead of your liver to think.
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Derico
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
Pinochet was also a strong supporter of the UK in the Falklands war.

And only you would bring that issue to the forefront. When in fact, most Chileans found it despicable that Pinochet actively helped Britain, when at the very least he could have stayed in the sidelines...

Unless you are going to say Britain would have lost without Chile's help!  sarcastic 
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Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:43 am

I don0t see any good comparing Pinochet to Fidel. Dictators cannot be compared or ranked to each other as they are evil of their own.

I don't see Pinochet "saving" us from communism, but the unanswered question will remain forever: what would happened without the coup? civil war? democratic solution? all possible.
Uo to 1973, Chile was a truly democracy, nothing but elected presidents since our independence hero, O'Higgins left the government after the independence. I don't think any other latin american country had that record.

Was the coup necessary? the answer is NO. What was necessary was to end Allende's government, but nobody can really tell the obly way out was that exeeded attack to our Government House...

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):
The only positive thing I read on that CNN link was "He is survived by his wife, Lucia, who headed a volunteer women's organization dedicated to helping the poor, two sons and three daughters"



Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):
If Pinochet was really so bad, how come he was married to such a person eh?

And that institution is widely questionated for all the money that had and no accounting at all. That graceless woman deserves a chapter aside...

Many has apponited as the greedest of the family, ther power in the shadows. I agree
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LH526
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:47 am

I'm half chilean, making Pinochet's death quite a thing to me.
My family always was and is on the pro Pinochet, contra Allende side of history, and was direclty involved in the coup, one of them even driving a tank in first row on the very morning.

So, on this side I'm very biased. Sure, I'm aware that Pinochet killed thousand of people, I can't stand any sort of killing, so I fully condemn Pinochets slaughtering.
My grandma lost what could have been a possible aunt to me, simply due to the fact that under Allende Chile was suffering periods of heavy medical and food shortage, directly causing her to get in strong medical troubel and in the end, losing her daughter.
Along with that Chile also suffered heavily under Allende, in another way, economicaly, yes, but Chile suffered and in the long run was unable to exist under this sort of communist regime, Chile went bankrupt in the early 1970s and as the communist dream broke down the political and economical situatuion of Chile got worse every day. In the end, it was this communist system that caused Allendes government to collapse. It's hard to say what would have happened without the coup ...

The fact that Pinochet killed and slaughtered thousands of mostly innocent communists is unacceptable, but it is proven that tens of thousand more would have suffered and died if that wrecked government caused by a ruinous communist system would have lasted for another decade.

The USA and CIA (in)directly helped Pinochet with the coup, so you do the maths who's the bad guy here.

Mario
LH526

[Edited 2006-12-11 00:50:46]
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LH526
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:59 am

Yyz717 and MIAMIx707, my thinking exactly!! Wise words!

It's sad that most people, and that includes some users here as well, don't happen to know the details of that 1960s to 1980s era in Chile. All they are aware of is the picture of Pinochte spread in the media: A Slaughterer killing innocent people after a coup against a democraticaly elected president.
I won't compare Hitler with Allende ... both were democraticaly elected, so that election argument is simply plain wrong!
Now they cite and echo what they read in the news whithout knowing all the background.

Don't judge Pinochet and Allende unless you know the EXACT DETAILED version of that era in Chile.

Mario
LH526

[Edited 2006-12-11 01:01:19]
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miamix707
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 28):
education, administrative organization, that horrible constitution of ours, etc.

Horrible constitution that just permitted you to vote for a decent new president in FAIR elections? (a rarity in lat. america) If your constitution were horrible, you dont' want to see Cuba's or Venezuela's...

While the education system can use impreovements (few nations have an ideal one) yet your country has over 95% literacy rates (one of the highest in lat. America)

"Administrative organization", not too specific a category but probably better than in neighboring countries.

Chile cannot be so bad when it's one of the nations with the fewest inmigrant numbers coming here to the US.


Another thing I noticed on TV, those throwing a party for his passing looked like the Chavistas in Venezuela and the followers or Lopez-Obrador in Mexico: the less uneducated and I also saw some revolutionary, hippie type young punks.

Those who appeared on CNN saying nothing but negatives were the leftist communist sympathizers, typical. The one person that was talking positive about him was cut off by the anchor lady "we'll get back to you later".
 
TuRbUleNc3
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:06 am

One more out of the way, all we need is saddam to go now  Wink
 
aloges
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting LH526 (Reply 35):
Don't judge Pinochet and Allende unless you know the EXACT DETAILED version of that era in Chile.

Allende may have failed, and terribly so, but AFAIK he did not get involved in atrocities like "Colonia Dignidad" and the "disappearances" of thousands of people. People didn't die because Pinochet was an inept leader like Allende, they died because Pinochet wanted them murdered. That's still a world of difference.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 36):
Another thing I noticed on TV, those throwing a party for his passing looked like the Chavistas in Venezuela and the followers or Lopez-Obrador in Mexico: the less uneducated and I also saw some revolutionary, hippie type young punks.

Quit the stereotyping already.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting LH526 (Reply 35):
Don't judge Pinochet and Allende unless you know the EXACT DETAILED version of that era in Chile.

And you can? I know the EXCAT DETAILED version of what Chile has been in the last 30 years. I was here, I see it everyday.

I see the deep effects a dictatorship has in the society of any country.

Please, the issue is not "Pinochet or Allende", it's actually none of them! Allende was horrible government, a total mess, chaos, armed people. Please, don't bring him to anyhow justify Pinochet.

My family didn't lose property under Allende. None of my relatives were tortured nor disappeared. So I think I have no feelings to coldly analyse the exact detailed version.

I've heard both sides of the story and don't belong to any of both, which gives me independence to realize what happened. I don't hate the guy and as posted, I don't rejoice his death nor desired him to burn in hell. He did good things, sure, but he was not even close to be the great republic organizer he pretended.
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LH526
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
nd you can? I know the EXCAT DETAILED version of what Chile has been in the last 30 years. I was here, I see it everyday.

I didn't say I do ... I can only try, I know way to much about how my family suffered under Allende and every detail of the Coups military strategy (Told by my family member that was in charge of the 2nd tank divison approaching the Moneda.), yet as I have no unbiased view on that, I don't dare to give a final judgement.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
I've heard both sides of the story and don't belong to any of both, which gives me independence to realize what happened. I don't hate the guy and as posted, I don't rejoice his death nor desired him to burn in hell. He did good things, sure, but he was not even close to be the great republic organizer he pretended.

I like the way you think! Congratulations on being a open minded person that sees good and bad things on both sides of the story, a story that has now real black and white but will always remain a deep grey as both politicians were good and evil .

Mario
LH526
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LH526
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 38):
Allende may have failed, and terribly so, but AFAIK he did not get involved in atrocities like "Colonia Dignidad" and the "disappearances" of thousands of people. People didn't die because Pinochet was an inept leader like Allende, they died because Pinochet wanted them murdered. That's still a world of difference.

In the end, it doesn't matter wether people are dead because they are being killed (direct murder by the order of Pinochet), or due to the fact that Chile suffered extreme shortages in food and medical things and they died because they lacked medical treatment or starved(indirect murder by Allende, who led Chile into an economical and financial disaster)

Mario
LH526
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aloges
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting LH526 (Reply 41):
In the end, it doesn't matter wether people are dead because they are being killed (direct murder by the order of Pinochet), or due to the fact that Chile suffered extreme shortages in food and medical things and they died because they lacked medical treatment or starved(indirect murder by Allende, who led Chile into an economical and financial disaster)

Did you really mean to say that every victim of starvation is indirectly murdered by the government? Like I said, I do in no way believe Allende was a saint, but Pinochet was in the same league as Hitler, Stalin and Mao. E.g. Hitler succeeded a democratic government, which itself was not at all popular and extremely weak, but that does not make his actions and crimes one bit excusable.

I hope Chileans will be able to discuss their country's history one day, a bit like we Germans did and still do. It will however take time and learning. Hitler, too, created a sort of "economic miracle" in his early days that made him popular - but that is entirely overshadowed by atrocities such as the Shoa.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 36):
Horrible constitution that just permitted you to vote for a decent new president in FAIR elections? (a rarity in lat. america) If your constitution were horrible, you dont' want to see Cuba's or Venezuela's...

Constitution that is so selfish that didn't allowed the president to remove army's commander in chief, allowed him to remain in the army after he left the power and invested him Senator for life. Constitution that is almost impossible to change unless you deal with his supporters.
Shall I go on?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 36):
While the education system can use improvements (few nations have an ideal one) yet your country has over 95% literacy rates (one of the highest in lat. America)

I meant the promotion of university private education instead of promoting good technical education. Primary education has been good in Chile since the beginning of the republic, not due to his government

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 36):
"Administrative organization", not too specific a category but probably better than in neighboring countries.

I meant territory division. Chile is a single state country, which was divided in "provinces". He invented 13 "regions" pretending to help other cities to develop. Result? Santiago is larger and mighty than ever.
Congress in Valparaiso? It costs millions every year.

And so ... there are so many

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 36):
Chile cannot be so bad when it's one of the nations with the fewest inmigrant numbers coming here to the US.

Don't take me wrong, Chile is great and very "advanced" in many topics. He proudly show figures that sometimes reflect more a developed country than the average historical latin american country.
Some of them directly related to the economy "revolution" started under Pinochet regime, when at the time there was no opposition nor congress to deal with, so he has all the power to make reforms and not paying the political costs, as it has happened in other of our countries.

He did well in many aspects, but even human rights asides, there were a lot of mistakes too. A lot of unfulfilled promises...

Chileans had democratic and republic oriented mind since our very beginning, we like low profile governments, honest leaders. He pay taxes and don't brive police man after an infraction.
Trust me, a lot of the figures that we show now are the result of the people, the trust we have in our leaders. We would never allo Chave's populism or Menem's luxurious lifestile, for instance.

So, don't give him credit for all. Do it for some...
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Klaus
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 42):
Hitler, too, created a sort of "economic miracle" in his early days that made him popular

No, he did not. That is a widely believed but still false myth.

Hitler benefitted from reforms which had been set in motion by his democratic predecessors. Even the famous example of the autobahns is wrong - they had been planned by previous governments as well.

Other than that, Hitler built his economic policies on debt, confiscation of jewish property, looting after occupation and slave labour.

Very little miraculous about it at all.

And not exactly a good basis for an exculpation of pinochet and similar bloody henchmen.
 
LH526
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 42):
id you really mean to say that every victim of starvation is indirectly murdered by the government?

Yes Achim. If a government fails to provide the most basic needs for their people, and due to that failure people die, than this technicaly constitutes murder.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 42):
Pinochet was in the same league as Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Well, that is a rather risky comparison that has been discussed to death and proved plain wrong over the last decades. I doubt the USA or Miss Thatcher would have had the slightest positive feeling for Mao, Hitler or Stalin ...

Mario
LH526
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miamix707
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 38):
Quit the stereotyping already.

I'm sorry that you're that blind.. or are totally clueless on what happens in latin america. REALITY and "stereotyping" are two different things..

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
And you can? I know the EXCAT DETAILED version of what Chile has been in the last 30 years. I was here, I see it everyday.

um.. sorry but your only old enough to at best, have some memory of half of PInochet's "dictatorship".

Listen, if all dictators were like Pinochet... this world would be in a lot better shape! Having said that, I will admit Allende was a man who spoke properly, and had above average class compared to the low-class typical communist.

I can't predict anything but I know what would've happened had the coup never taken place:


- Castro eventually helps Allende set up some kind of totalitarian communist regime.

- Arcano is only allowed strict, limiited usasge of the internet to do a research paper on the accomplishments of the great Karl Marx, Lenin, and Che Guevara and never learns about the existence of airliners.net  Wink
 
Arcano
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 46):
sorry but your only old enough to at best, have some memory of half of PInochet's "dictatorship".

Do you really think the influence of a dictatorship end with the regime? Do you realize than NOBODY in our TV, 17 years after the end, call him "dictator"? they just refer to him as "general Pinochet".

We "learned" not to disagree, not to argue. We learned there was an official version for everything.

A society suffers a lot with the lack of democracy, my friend. You can totally see the effects nowadays...

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 46):
Listen, if all dictators were like Pinochet... this world would be in a lot better shape!

Do you know I can of agree? I would never "dare" to compare Pinochet with Hitler, Stalin, Castro or whoever. As said, I don't even see the point in comparing them.

Pinochet did do something absolutely unpredictable: he left the government in peace...

But remember the guy had some cruelty that makes me sick. Two examples:

- During the coup, before Allende died, there are some records of Pinochet giving orders: "Offer Allende an aircraft to leave the country, and during the flight, the aircraft crashes"

- After he left the government and while he was still army's chief; some people ask him for some bodies they've found of n.n. prisoners. They asked "General, even two bodies were found in a single case". He answered: "Oh, that's a pretty good money saving".

See?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8657
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):
Sure enough, it links me to the Communist News Network -CNN and they don't mention how Pinochet saved Chile from communism



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 27):
As I said, his human rights abuses were inexcusable, but Chile's strong economy today is due to his reforms.



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
If Pinochet is to be villified for his human rights record, then he should also be praised for his pro-market reforms.

w-o-w  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
 
Derico
Posts: 4219
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 48):
w-o-w

Well if you are pro-free market economics, you have to admit that Pinochet forced Chile into that direction.

The way it was done, of course, cannot be justified, but it happened. It must be admitted that Chile's competitive nature economically and it's well runned companies and government today is partly because of those Pinochet imposed reforms. On the downside, Chile today has inequality levels between it citizens which rivals countries like Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela and Peru.

Actually, I would credit Pinochet with ONE thing for sure: he really was the one man that, along with Pope Jean Paul II, prevented Argentina from declaring war on Chile in 1977.

Let's remember how the then brand new Pope had just assumed the Vatican, and the Holy See had not become involved in a dispute between two countries in over 200 years. Pinochet himself at the last minute, after meeting Videla (the argentine leader at the time) and realizing Argentina was bent on war, called on the Pope to mediate, as was being asked by much of the world.

As the Pope was thinking about Pinochet's request, unknown to the Pope or Pinochet until the very night of the event, the Argentine Navy sailed away, supposedly to invade the Chilean islands... But a famous Cape Horn storm forced the navy back for the night.

The Pope accepted to become involved the next day, and the war was eventually averted with a treaty reasserting Chile's sovereignty over the islands in question.

Argentina would then turn to Brazil for possible war, but then that became a nuclear arms race. So then it turned to Britain of course, and Pinochet perhpas saw his chance to stick it back to Videla, sort of...
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
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RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Other than that, Hitler built his economic policies on debt, confiscation of jewish property, looting after occupation and slave labour.

Very little miraculous about it at all.

Miraculous...not the term I'd use much like you didn't...didn't he end up causing massive hyper-inflation to fund his "war of defense against Polish aggression against innocent German radio stations"?

How one man can turn a near bankrupt nation into a military superpower in short order by legal means is beyond me...ie I know he cooked the books along with his deficit spending (not necessarily horrible depending), confiscation, theft, looting, etc.

The introduction of the DM to replace the RM left many a German penniless...

As for Pinochet...he did in fact turn Chile into one of the more prosperous nations...however did the end justify the means? This is a question for the people of Chile to answer. Having read up on what was happening before this coup...it seemed Chile was headed for dark times either way. This seems to be why the nation is polarized on the subject.

My opinion was that it was a dark chapter, let's hope his passing will allow Chile to truly move on and prosper.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 23):
LONDON: Former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher was "greatly saddened" by the death of Chile's ex-dictator Augusto Pinochet, her spokesman said on Sunday.

When will she join him?

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 30):
how Pinochet saved Chile from communism, and brought economic reforms that transformed Chile into Latin America's strongest economy that brought one of the best (if not the best) standards of living in the Americas. Instead they ridiculously try to downplay and credit the resurgence of the economy to some economist "group" lmao!

Sorry but it is inexusable to justify this dictatorship based on "it would have been worse without him". He might have saved Chile from Communism, but that is something that the people should have decided.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 46):
Listen, if all dictators were like Pinochet... this world would be in a lot better shape!

What? Are you serious?
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
No, he did not. That is a widely believed but still false myth.

Hence the quotation marks.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 46):
I'm sorry that you're that blind.. or are totally clueless on what happens in latin america. REALITY and "stereotyping" are two different things..

I'm not blind. I just can't stand it when people reduce their criticism of a heinous mass murderer to "You've been a naughty boy!" because the people he (had) murdered were mostly leftists. Once you start doing that, you get on very thin ice.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:31 pm

I hope Pinochet likes it hot down there!
Bring back the Concorde
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13091
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 42):
Hitler succeeded a democratic government

There wasn't really a democratic government in place, even though the so-called Weimar Republic was the first German democratic state to exist. Hitler only got to power due to his nomination by President Hindenburg and after lots of Chancellors leaving office and Parliaments dissolving. Political instability may have brought Hitler to power, like in most dictatorships, but he did so legally after being nominated by the then politically powerful German president, unlike Pinochet who seized power through a coup d'état.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 50):
Miraculous...not the term I'd use much like you didn't...didn't he end up causing massive hyper-inflation to fund his "war of defense against Polish aggression against innocent German radio stations"?

There was already a hyper-inflation in the old Weimar Republic before Hitler even came to power. Hitler may have brought some economical "prosperity" for a short time, only for the economy to fully collapse by the time the war in Europe ended (AFAIK, it was to fund for the military re-armament of the country, which under the then valid Versailles Treaty was illegal, yet no other country has stopped Hitler in that regard).

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 50):
The introduction of the DM to replace the RM left many a German penniless...

But then during the 50s, the economic miracle, led by Finance Minister Ludwig Erhard and democratically elected German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, happened in West Germany, some time after introducing the Social Market Economy, which is still the backbone of German economic policy today.

But why the comparison between Hitler and Pinochet? Hitler was a dictactor who managed to legally come to power while Pinochet seized it. While both have commited horrible atrocities, I don't think we can both compare to each other. They're both in different leagues.
 
rootsair
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Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:25 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:11 pm

I see some people didn't appreciate the word i used to describe Pinochet.... Whatever don't see any other word i can use for him
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:04 pm

A cautionary word.

Dictators such as Pinochet and Suharto were associated with some awful acts while in power or in the process of getting into power.
250,000--1,000,000 - Indonesia (1965-1966) under President Suharto (anti-communist purges).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

Both resigned with some expectation of limitations in relation to their subsequent prosecution. This does not make those bent on revenge very happy.

How much less happy would they be, had these two dictators remained in power due to a fear of being prosecuted for their previous acts.

If immunity from prosecution is the trade off for resignation, it might be as well to consider that baying for prosecution might be short sighted for others still languishing under any of the many other dictatorships still found around the world.

That said, it is still very irritating to drive along a toll road in Indonesia and know that most of the toll goes to Suhartos daughter!
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Pinochet Has Died...

Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:22 pm

In a few decades Chile will regard him as a hero who saved them from communism - the worst variation of dictatorship. Three thousand dead? Sad for their families but that is low price comparing to millions who lost lives worldwide at the hands of communists.

[Edited 2006-12-11 14:24:12]

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