bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:11 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236183,00.html
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip — Palestinian gunmen forced a Hamas commander to his knees and shot him to death early Wednesday outside the courthouse where he worked as an Islamic judge, escalating factional tensions in the Gaza Strip and prompting the Palestinian prime minister to cut short a trip abroad.

The death came two days after three young sons of a Fatah-allied Palestinian intelligence officer were killed in a drive-by shooting, sparking renewed conflict between the rival Hamas and Fatah factions. The violence has reduced chances for a unity government and pushed the two sides closer to civil war.

Palestinian security officials said the slain man was Bassam al-Fara, 30, a judge at the Islamic court and a Hamas commander who belongs to the largest clan in the town of Khan Younis.


It seems trouble is re-brewing between the two factions. Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.
 
miamiair
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RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):

Somehow, it will be found that Israel or the US is to blame for this.

Seriously, until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Palestinian gunmen forced a Hamas commander

Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.

Nope. Half of them need Israel to be the local bogeyman in order for them to redirect attention from their own domestic issues. Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do. Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait, and they'd still be arguing on the exact wording of the text condemning Saddam etc.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

Probably, but that was were I copied and pasted an exerpt from the article. Its fox news, absolute facts arent always that important to them.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
Seriously, until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.

I think this is true. If we could get off oil and just leave them to thier own devices great. Once again, our good friend the Saudis arent helping the situation much.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/13/saudi.sunnis/index.html

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do.

Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Our need for thier oil

Regretably that's what it mostly comes down to.

I spent 8 yrs in the region and it's frustrating to watch, because there is a lot of individual talent and desire to do better (countries like Tunisia for example). Unfortunately they do not have the upper hand in all of this.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:08 am

Very, very sad that my fellow Palestinians keep digging their own grave deeper and deeper... instead of concentrating on what matters, i.e. ending Israeli occupation, they squabble like little schoolgirls. Its unbelievable how brutal things are getting; 3 children were killed this week, just because their father was a leader in Fateh. Disgusting.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.



Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need to forget about destroying Israel and work to solve thier own problems first.

This involves no country other than Palestine, and most issues in Palestine are tied in with the Israeli occupation, including this one. One of the main causes of the instability is the fact that Gaza is being pretty much starved; because the West has cut off aid due to the Hamas government and because Israel refuses to hand in money to the Palestinians collected on their behalf, people in Gaza are pretty much starving and shit is really hitting the fan.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Whilst a lot of people say that the Arabs should be left to resolve their own issues, the reality is that they never do. Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait, and they'd still be arguing on the exact wording of the text condemning Saddam etc.

And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right? Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine, and you'll get a good idea at just how well the West helps Arabs out. Never mind the fact that a lot of the trouble in the Middle East is because of over a century of Western intervention.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 3):
Interesting note, much of this does fall on western shoulders though. Our need for thier oil and thier need for our money make for interesting bed fellows.

The only oil exporting country that has a lot of issues is Saudi Arabia, the US's best friend. All other oil-exporting countries have done many great things for themselves, such as Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE and Bahrain. As for Iraq, it is a unique case; it is where it is today again because of Western intervention. Without US backing, Saddam would have never stayed in power or entered the Iran-Iraq war, and arguably Iraq would be a very different place today. But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
This involves no country other than Palestine

So the influences from Syria, Iran, KSA, Lebanon and Egypt have nothing to do with this?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right?

OK, so imagine this, without western money, and arab oil, what does the middle east have? Poverty is already rampant, hunger is an issue. The west is trying to protect its interests, I certainly do not agree with many of the tactics involved, but what do you recommend?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine

Both are a joke, good point.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
The only oil exporting country that has a lot of issues is Saudi Arabia, the US's best friend.

This bothers me to no end. KSA represents the opposite of what this country is all about. If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

I just wrote that many of the events in the region fall on the shoulders of the west. I believe this. The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.
 
cairo
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RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
until they can settle their internal squables, the instability will keep spreading across the region.

As long as THEY are the ones settling their squables (or not), fine, lets watch from a distance.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait

...and?

...this affects you how?

Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets, while all the west did was to refuse to acknowledge this diplomatically. You'll note the world kept going, America and the rest of Europe continued to grow and prosper.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 1):
Somehow, it will be found that Israel or the US is to blame for this.

It isn't about blame, it is about accepting responsibility for your actions.

Of course Israel has a role in anything that happens with the Palestinians, since the Palestinians became an identifiable refugee group with the magical creation of Israel in 1947. Without creating Israel there is no Palestinian problem, just as there are no native American issues without the creation of the US.

The billions of dollars all tax paying Americans send to Israel every year, deducted from their paychecks every week, makes them also culpable. The hundreds of UN resolutions condemning Israel for human rights abuses, which would have become sanctionable had they not been blocked in the security counciil by America acting alone, makes America a prime mover in all of this and an ultimate source of region-wide and Islamic-wide dislike.

So, yes, American actions in the Middle East creates American responsibility for some of the results in the Middle East. The fact that most Americans don't have a clue as to the extent of their government's meddlings in the ME plays right into the hands of those in US government who want you to believe the US is unfairly targeted, just sitting on the sidelines acting peacefully.

With all that said, yes, the Palestinians could take a lesson from ML King or M. Ghandi and learn the power of effective protests or non-violent media attention.

Cairo
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
of concentrating on what matters, i.e. ending Israeli occupation, they squabble like little schoolgirls.

Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip ended over a year ago; that is why there is so much squabbling in Gaza today. As many pundits have been saying for years, the Palestinians will need to fight a civil war between the moderates who truly want peace and the extremists who want to push Israel into the sea...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

I just wrote that many of the events in the region fall on the shoulders of the west. I believe this. The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):

Regardless of what wrongs the West has done in the ME, the area still should take responsibility for their actions, instead of (rightfully or wrongly) blaming the West for their problems. Being a victim makes another party responsible for correcting the wrongs, instead of simply moving forward and saying 'damn the torpedoes.'

This is a similar dynamic that some individuals use to justify their lot in life. Some people and groups use the fact of having been the victim to just sit there and wait for others to improve their lives. Some people and groups simply don't let the past affect their current behavior.

A united Palestinian people would be a much stronger group to deal with than Palestinians infighting and giving others reason to believe they are not ready for additional responsibilities.
 
RJdxer
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Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
And we can all see how good the West is solving things in the Middle East, right? Just look at the democracy in Iraq and the peace in Palestine, and you'll get a good idea at just how well the West helps Arabs out.

Which just goes to prove that you can't help an arab nation out. If you try they end up coming back to bite the hand that helped them.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Without US backing, Saddam would have never stayed in power or entered the Iran-Iraq war, and arguably Iraq would be a very different place today. But, its much easier to say that its all our fault and ignore your own errors.

Cue violins........He was in power without us. He was gassing Kurds without us. He was building a nuclear reactor without us. Yes Iraq would be a different place today, Saddam would still be in power and his sons would still be raping women and killing men at random.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Then thank goodness we know that you are not running.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
The practice of imperialism has been the most devastating idea in man kinds history.

Given the opportunity there are more than enough radical muslims that would spread their version of "imperialism" as fast as they could in the world today.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Iraq would still be occupying Kuwait


...and?

...this affects you how?

Think hard, it's black and gooey, and comes out of the ground.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets,

Could you point out the common border the United States shares with any arab nation?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Of course Israel has a role in anything that happens with the Palestinians, since the Palestinians became an identifiable refugee group with the magical creation of Israel in 1947.

If the Palestinians, who never had a country before 1947, had aboded by the agreements who knows where they might be as a people and country today. Instead they chose the path of war and have paid dearly for it ever since.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Regardless of what wrongs the West has done in the ME, the area still should take responsibility for their actions, instead of (rightfully or wrongly) blaming the West for their problems.

I will go one step further and say that as in the life of the individual, each nation (or people) should accept responsibility for their problems whether or not they alone created them.

But, this cuts both ways: for instance, terrorism against America is not a problem created elsewhere, it is a problem created by America and its solution lies in changing what America does.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
This is a similar dynamic that some individuals use to justify their lot in life. Some people and groups use the fact of having been the victim to just sit there and wait for others to improve their lives. Some people and groups simply don't let the past affect their current behavior.

Very very true, just be sure you apply it to American problems as well; which are, of course, all created by Americans.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Which just goes to prove that you can't help an arab nation out. If you try they end up coming back to bite the hand that helped them

Do you think then maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
If I were President, I would cut ties to them the day I was elected. Consequences be damned.

Then thank goodness we know that you are not running.

Part of having morals means you do things that are sometimes difficult or painful to further a higher moral principal.

If you always take the easier path, you simply have no morals.

KSA supports parts of the Iraqi 'insurgency', it marginalizes women, all the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi connections, and so on. The fact that KSA has by far the largest proven oil reserves in the world causes America to "overlook" the crimes of the Saudi regime - and this moral bankruptcy is a central pillar of anger towards America.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Think hard, it's black and gooey, and comes out of the ground

Kuwait's contribution to the oil supply of America is negligible to non-existent. Does knowing this change your answer as to how the Iraq invasion of Kuwait affects you?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Could you point out the common border the United States shares with any arab nation?

Not sure of your point here? America occupies Iraq, parts of Afghanistan, and supports repressive regimes in Egypt, Israel, KSA, Jordan and elsewhere.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
had aboded by the agreements

Hahahahahaha. American education and media work at its finest.

What agreements in the creation of Israel are the Arabs/Palestinians not abiding by?

Cairo
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
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RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Without creating Israel there is no Palestinian problem, just as there are no native American issues without the creation of the US.

This brings up an interesting point. I am a native American. I live in the same historic region, eat the same foods, and practice subsistence much the same as my ancestors did for thousands of years.
I was not alive for the outright autrocities that occurred while taming the American west or Russian influence in Alaska. Horrible terrible things happened in the past. I still see everyday the systemic oppression that occurs on most minority populations. But there are ways to go about changing those. Strapping explosives to yourself and blowing apart a public bus isnt it.
The Israeli occupation is not right, and I believe the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would make major concessions to have a lasting peace, but it is the extremist minorities who are dictating policy, and violence all to often is quickest response.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
he fact that Gaza is being pretty much starved; because the West has cut off aid due to the Hamas government

Well you can't have it both ways. Elect terrorists into the government, burn down and loot western embassies and at the same time expect to be fed by them. Where's all that wonderful Muslim solidarity everzbody is talking about ALL the time? How come "brothers" in Tehran, Doha, Islamabad , Cairo or Ryiadh are not exactly falling over themselves to foot the bill for Palestinians?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

It's much better if Hamas nutjobs kill Fatah nutjobs and vice versa than see these cowards blow themselves up in Israeli discos, cafes and buses.
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
This brings up an interesting point. I am a native American. I live in the same historic region,

Are the acts of the Palestinians today so different from what the Native Americans were doing, for example here, during the time the west was conquered?


Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
Strapping explosives to yourself and blowing apart a public bus isnt it.

It's easy to sit in well-fed America and proscribe how those that feel opressed should better them selves, but I agree with you. Just remember they've had decades of UN santions blocked by America, hundreds of UN resolutions against Israel, empty promisses for help from all manner of sources...yet these nonviolent avenues have produced little.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 12):
but it is the extremist minorities who are dictating policy,

Probably true. Anytime a vast number of young single men are frustrated by no jobs, no future, and plenty of self-pity, you can expect turbulence.

Cairo
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Do you think then maybe you should stop trying to 'help an arab nation out'?

I've been an advocate of that for a long time. Sometimes though you have to act to defend yourself.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Part of having morals means you do things that are sometimes difficult or painful to further a higher moral principal.

Part of leadership is realizing that you have to make difficult choices and relegating your country to economic disaster is not a good leadership choice.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
KSA supports parts of the Iraqi 'insurgency',

Proof?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
it marginalizes women,

A sad thing but it gosh the UN has wonderful ideas that the muslim world just keeps shooting down.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
all the 9/11 hijackers had Saudi connections

Timothy McVeigh was an American and he killed more people per person than the 9/11 hijackers did, so what's your point?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
and this moral bankruptcy is a central pillar of anger towards America.

Nice propaganda, the truth is that they want what we have or at least want to deny it to the very people they supposedly represent in the name of Allah.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
Kuwait's contribution to the oil supply of America is negligible to non-existent. Does knowing this change your answer as to how the Iraq invasion of Kuwait affects you?

No since if that oil was not available or only available at black mail prices then the cost of all oil would go up.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia were occupied for 50 years by the Soviets, while all the west did was to refuse to acknowledge this diplomatically.

There was this little conference called Yalta, so many things were decided there, you should read up on it.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 11):
What agreements in the creation of Israel are the Arabs/Palestinians not abiding by?

How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist? Or the one that gave them (the Palestinians) the bigger piece of the pie and the better part of it as well. But for them it was all or nothing and so they have nothing and nobody but themselves to blame for it. When you have never had a country, such as the Palestinians in 1947, you should be grateful when someone hands you one without you so much as having to fire a shot.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 14):
Are the acts of the Palestinians today so different from what the Native Americans were doing, for example here, during the time the west was conquered?

My point in my earlier statement was that time heals wounds. Sure there are many times I feel systemically oppressed. But I cant go back and change history. My ancestors in AK, didnt really fight like in the lower 48. We have been for centuries and still now exploited through our resources, through our labor, through our lands, this still happens today on a very large scale. There comes a time where a forward looking individual, who has seen past wrongs, decides to wipe the slate clean and move forward for the betterment of thier society. I hope one can emerge in that region soon. Though I dont know of any on the horizon.
Cairo, tell me, what would be your solution to this problem. Given the parameters that Israel is not going away nor are they giving back Jerusalem. Under what circumstances could we have lasting peace?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
between the two factions.

the term you use reveals something. You see, it is NOT "factions" it is two entirely opposite political parties who work in a kind of political agreement. Problems therefore cannot surprise anybody.
 
bushpilot
Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Proof?

It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA. Not necesarily the royal family, but it comes from KSA.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
A sad thing but it gosh the UN has wonderful ideas that the muslim world just keeps shooting down.

So you support the US being bedfellows with a country who scoffs at the ideals of this country. It isnt only about women, it is about freedom of the press, no democracy, freedom of religion. Yet the US supports the Saudi royal family, makes it filthy stinking rich, while thier citizens have attacked this country. Our relationship with the KSA is the biggest farce and embarrasement to our country.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Timothy McVeigh was an American and he killed more people per person than the 9/11 hijackers did, so what's your point?

Your pointing out the problem right there. The complete and utterly stupid double standard we set for KSA. There are other places to buy oil, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an axis of evil.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
the term you use reveals something. You see, it is NOT "factions" it is two entirely opposite political parties who work in a kind of political agreement. Problems therefore cannot surprise anybody.

Mince my words all you want, but keep in mind that there are very few countries in the world where opposing political parties actively assasinate thier counterpart members. I have heard dirty names tossed around, I have seen punches thrown, but one murder does not justify another. The only people that suffer from this are the Palestinians. It is much more counterproductive to thier cause than resorting to terrorism.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Thread starter):
Further evidence in my book that several middle eastern countries need

-
no, it is not evidence to anything. Neither "several Middle Eastern countries" nor Israel nor the USA nor Europe "need to" anything. Jumping to whatever conclusions leads to nowhere.
-

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 2):
Shouldn't that read "Fatah gunmen" as both Fatah and Hamas are Palestinian?

FoxNews wants to have the emphasis on "Palestinian" and not something their audience may not understand. And I do NOT blame them. In media reports you have to report in a way which is understood by a broad public.
-

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
I spent 8 yrs in the region and it's frustrating to watch, because there is a lot of individual talent and desire to do better (countries like Tunisia for example). Unfortunately they do not have the upper hand in all of this.

as frustrating as problems in Palestine and Iraq and in some ways the KSA may be, most countries in the region DO desire to do better and really go ahead. It in fact is positive to see how most really DO GO forward in spite of some serious sh... in the region.
-

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):
This involves no country other than Palestine
--
So the influences from Syria, Iran, KSA, Lebanon and Egypt have nothing to do with this?

-
A) the matter at hand involves Palestine/Israel
B) Syria ? indirectly maybe
C) Iran ? even more indirectly than Syria
D) Lebanon ? NO, nothing
E) Egypt ? absolutely nothing
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D) you may think of Hizbullah. But whenever Hizbullah and Hamas have a "Damascus-Tehran-connection" in common and are both on the fundamentalist right-wing of politics, Hizbullah is Shi'ite and in true reality has not really too much in mind about or for the Palestinians, Hamas is Sunni and has not much love for generally rather anti-Palestinian Shi'ites in Lebanon.
-
E) Egypt for years tried to mediate between the Palestinians and Israel. But as all mediators, also Egypt faced quite some problems in this endeavour.
-

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 6):

OK, so imagine this, without western money, and arab oil, what does the middle east have? Poverty is already rampant, hunger is an issue.

-
The Middle East has lots of assets. There are industries, there is the tourism business, agriculture. "poverty rampant" ? Far less than in the past. "Hunger an issue" ? where ? maybe in Iraq due to mis-management of the US leadership. True, the USA gives financial support to Egypt. But it is in a similar category for that 70 mio. nation as the support to Israel which is just a tenth of that size. So that, in a worst-case-scenario, Egypt would even manage to cope without. While Israel possibly would find it more difficult. Oil is a difficult thing, as it by exporting raw oil brings money but no real economic progress or economic activity. THAT is why Libya starts to lead oil to Alexandria into Egyptian refineries who then sell advanced products.
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Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
solidarity everzbody is talking abou

Qatar, in the framework of Arab solidarity, has started to pay the salaries of all teachers in the Palestinian territories. Arab companies are trying to invest in the Gaza-Territory, but are not exactly supported by Israel, which in true reality still is the ruling power there. They have withdrawn troops and settlements but still pull the strings.
-
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA.

P R O O F?

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
Our relationship with the KSA is the biggest farce and embarrasement to our country.



Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
are other places to buy oil,

So you support nation building by embargo? BTW do you happen know what would happen to the price of oil if we started following that idea? Great for you, you live in Alaska and would see a bigger check from the state every year.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
It is fairly well known that much of the support for the Sunni-Iraqis comes from KSA.
--
P R O O F?

-
he quite correctly wrote that "it is fairly WELL KNOWN". and that exactly means that there is no proof. To give you a hint. The leading tribe in the desert areas in Western Iraq are the Shammar. The Shammar are evident in neighbouring areas of the KSA, Jordan Iraq and even Syria. And one Shammar lady happened to have been one of the favourite wifes of "Ibn Sa'ud" (Abdul-Aziz bin Abdur-Rahman ..... al-Sa'ud), and the mother of Kings Sa'ud bin Abdul-Aziz as-Sa'ud, Faisal, Khaled, Fahd and Abdullah as well as of Crown Prince Sultan. The first state president in post-invasion Iraq just by sheer coincidence of course happened to be a Shammar Sheikh.
-
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
and that exactly means that there is no proof.

Thank you

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21):
by sheer coincidence of course happened to be a Shammar Sheikh.

And sometimes the simplest answer is the one that is correct in this case, sheer coincidence. It's not like they picked this guy off a camel somewhere, he's been active in Iraqi freedom movements for sometime.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 22):
he's been active in Iraqi freedom movements for sometime.

correct is that he has been active in Iraqi Shammar representations for quite some time. No it of course was NOT a coincidence. It was tried to take the Iraqi Shammar into the pattern.
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This btw. will explain the problems of intelligent Shi'ites in Iraq. They have a majority of people, BUT due to the desert area being population-wise dominated by Sunni tribes only a MINority of the area, and worst of all possibly not even the potentially oil-rich areas in the Southwest.
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cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist?

You said "agreement". There is NO agreement. The land was taken without any AGREEMENT from the Palestinians, the Arabs, or anyone.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
I've been an advocate of that for a long time.

Good, this alone will solve most of YOUR problems in the ME.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist? Or the one that gave them (the Palestinians) the bigger piece of the pie and the better part of it as well

Agreement means both sides agree. No such agreement was produced.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
When you have never had a country,

Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1...59_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
The situation is very similar to if the UN came into south Arizona, took land, and created a homeland for the Aztecs or whomever lived there 3000 years ago...but you would of course have no problem with this since Arizona never had a country.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 16):
Cairo, tell me, what would be your solution to this problem. Given the parameters that Israel is not going away nor are they giving back Jerusalem. Under what circumstances could we have lasting peace?

First and foremost, America must leave the Middle East entirely. If it is so concerned about Israel, it can garrison troops there, but it must end funding for Israel.

As for the Palestinian situation - ask the Palestinians what they want. But, basically, I think it is a 2 state solution with EQUITABLE distribution of land. Jerusalem is an almost impossible problem, but it could be managed by outside powers like Berlin was in the post WW2 environment.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
P R O O F?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/..._on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency_saudi

also see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...,,1971581,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=1

Cairo
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1...59_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
The situation is very similar to if the UN came into south Arizona, took land, and created a homeland for the Aztecs or whomever lived there 3000 years ago...but you would of course have no problem with this since Arizona never had a country.

"Terra Sancta sive Palæstina exhibens non solum Regna vetera Iuda et Israel in suas XII Tribus distincta, sed etiam eorundem diversarum ætatum conditionem et facta in Sacris Paginis indicata"

And now....ta da...the english translation of YOUR map: The Holy Land or Palestine Showing not only the Old Kingdoms of Judea and Israel but also the 12 Tribes Distinctly, Confirming their Locations Diversely in their Ancient Condition and Doing So as the Holy Scriptures Indicate

So what's your point?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1...59_map_Holy_Land_and_12_Tribes.jpg
The situation is very similar to if the UN came into south Arizona, took land, and created a homeland for the Aztecs or whomever lived there 3000 years ago...but you would of course have no problem with this since Arizona never had a country.

"Terra Sancta sive Palæstina exhibens non solum Regna vetera Iuda et Israel in suas XII Tribus distincta, sed etiam eorundem diversarum ætatum conditionem et facta in Sacris Paginis indicata"

And now....ta da...the english translation of YOUR map: The Holy Land or Palestine Showing not only the Old Kingdoms of Judea and Israel but also the 12 Tribes Distinctly, Confirming their Locations Diversely in their Ancient Condition and Doing So as the Holy Scriptures Indicate

So what's your point?

Tis the sport to see the enginer
Hoyst by his own petar-Will Shakespeare.

When crips and bloods and vice lords and el rukns and small rascals and asian boyz and all the rest are busy murdering each other in America's cities, you can always find some apologist who'll blame it on the white folks, the politicians, Jews, Jimmy Carter, grape koolaid, phases of the moon, whatever. Witness the supporters of the late unlamented Tookie Williams for the proposition.

Anything to avoid confronting the evil that is within and rooting it out...it is far easier to blame others.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 25):
And now....ta da...the english translation of YOUR map: The Holy Land or Palestine Showing not only the Old Kingdoms of Judea and Israel but also the 12 Tribes Distinctly, Confirming their Locations Diversely in their Ancient Condition and Doing So as the Holy Scriptures Indicate

So what's your point?

Do you just run around the internet jumping in anytime you think precious Israel might be verbally challenged?

If you'd bother reading the post, you'd see the point of the map is to confirm that the place was known as Palestine for centuries, it didn't suddenly exist in the 20th century, although the arrival of militant Jews in Palestine certainly is a recent phenomenon.

No one is challenging that the Jews lived there 2000+ years ago.

Tell me, DTW, what is your connection to Israel and why do you "defend" it anytime you can?

Cairo
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
If you'd bother reading the post, you'd see the point of the map is to confirm that the place was known as Palestine for centuries, it didn't suddenly exist in the 20th century, although the arrival of militant Jews in Palestine certainly is a recent phenomenon.

I read the post thank you. It points out: the Old Kingdoms of Judea and Israel but also the 12 Tribes, which you chose to ignore.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
Do you just run around the internet jumping in anytime you think precious Israel might be verbally challenged?

No, just when one sided arguments need clarification.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
why do you "defend" it anytime you can?

I never have and never will blindly defend Israel. That is a fact.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 28):
I never have and never will blindly defend Israel. That is a fact.

I'm not sure I've seen an example here indicating this is true, but if you want to say you don't blindly defend Israel, I guess you can believe that. What has Israel done that you don't like or don't defend?

You are culturally or religiously attached to Israel? Why the great interest?

Cairo
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
You said "agreement". There is NO agreement. The land was taken without any AGREEMENT from the Palestinians, the Arabs, or anyone.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Agreement means both sides agree. No such agreement was produced.



Quoting Cairo (Reply 7):
The hundreds of UN resolutions condemning Israel for human rights abuses, which would have become sanctionable had they not been blocked in the security counciil by America acting alone, makes America a prime mover in all of this and an ultimate source of region-wide and Islamic-wide dislike.

So much for abiding by UN resolutions. If Palestinians couldn't abide by the first one which actually gave them a country, asking anyone to abide by ones reached after that is just stupid.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.

My historical atlas shows that the Ottoman Empire ruled the region known as Palestine from roughly 1529 on to the end of the first world war. Can you tell me when Palestine was allowed to have it's own government and borders within the Ottoman empire?

I asked for proof and you cite two news articles, one with unnamed sources and the other saying what the Saudi royal family will do to protect themselves if the we pull out before the job is done. That's pretty weak. Care to try again?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 29):
You are culturally or religiously attached to Israel? Why the great interest?

Most Americans are attached to Israel in one form or another. When George W Bush reads his Bible and then deals with Middle East foreign policy issues, you don't think he has any special feelings towards Israel?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
So much for abiding by UN resolutions. If Palestinians couldn't abide by the first one which actually gave them a country, asking anyone to abide by ones reached after that is just stupid.

Oh, I see. So, the UN gets to decide where new countries are created, contrary to the will of the people actually living there, and after that point if the people don't like it, they have no redress to the UN?

The UN creates Israel, gives the Jews a country right in the middle of people who hate them, and then Israel is free from ever obeying the UN, the very body that gave them a country to begin with?



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
If the Palestinians, who never had a country before 1947, had aboded by the agreements who knows where they might be as a people and country today.

What agreement did the Palestinians make that they should have to abide by concerning the creation of a Palestinian state in 1947?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
My historical atlas shows that the Ottoman Empire ruled the region known as Palestine from roughly 1529 on to the end of the first world war. Can you tell me when Palestine was allowed to have it's own government and borders within the Ottoman empire?

AFAIK the people living in Palestine never had an independent government during the time of the Ottoman Empire. Before America was created the Native Americans likewise had no boundaries and no unified government. Many native peoples are in this situation and don't fit neatly into your American ideas of government or nation-states.

World Wars happened, the Holocaust happened and Europe wanted to deal with the Jews by "giving" them Israel. So, at this point, what do you call the people who were already living there before large numbers of Jews arrived? You give them the only name that makes sense, Palestinians.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
I asked for proof and you cite two news articles, one with unnamed sources and the other saying what the Saudi royal family will do to protect themselves if the we pull out before the job is done. That's pretty weak. Care to try again?

Obviously you didn't bother to read the article, since it would mean proving yourself wrong. The KSA is funding 'insurgents' in Iraq who kill US soldiers. What an ally!

Sources cited in the Article:
---The United States Baker/Hamilton Iraq Study Group Report - meaning SecState James Baker
---high ranking Iraqi officials
---truck drivers witnessed by the Associatd Press
---The AP is a source in itself providing most of the content for most US newspapers

Amazing how you think you can sit in Houston and know what is going on in Saudi Arabia and Iraq while discounting people who are on the scene. I hate to be the one to tell you, but America often makes mistakes, as does George Bush. It is better to admit them and learn than try to defend the absurd.

BTW, why are you so hell bent on not believing the KSA funds Sunnis?

Cairo

Please explain how you know better than CBS News or the unbiased Fox News?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/....shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2240138

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Dec...0,4670,IraqInsurgencySaudi,00.html
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):

RJ, I already know your religion and upbringing explain your love affair with Israel. I'm wondering what DTW's affiliation is, since my assumption that he is Jewish might, although I doubt it, be wrong.

Cairo
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 33):
RJ, I already know your religion and upbringing explain your love affair with Israel. I'm wondering what DTW's affiliation is, since my assumption that he is Jewish might, although I doubt it, be wrong.

And what difference does it make if he is Jewish or not? Anti-semites who can't stand the US-Israel relationship don't seem to understand that the majority of Americans are both pro-Israel and NOT Jewish.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 33):
RJ, I already know your religion and upbringing explain your love affair with Israel. I'm wondering what DTW's affiliation is, since my assumption that he is Jewish might, although I doubt it, be wrong.

For example, look at Congress. The most pro-Israel leaders on Capitol Hill are just about all not Jewish.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
gives the Jews a country right in the middle of people who hate them

At least you're finally able to admit the truth. It's not about the land, it's about the people occupying it.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
So, the UN gets to decide where new countries are created

Yeah, that's kind of their job. To prevent little wars from becoming big ones like WW1, you've read about that one right? And you've read about Korea, and Vietnam, and Bosnia and Serbia?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
What agreement did the Palestinians make that they should have to abide by concerning the creation of a Palestinian state in 1947?

Since the Palestinians, once again going over old ground, did not have a country prior to 1947 they didn't have any say in it. But given that they had not had a country before they should have been happy to have one then. Instead, true to form, all or nothing, and now 60 years later they have only a smidgen of what they could have had at an absolutely terrible cost.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
You give them the only name that makes sense, Palestinians.

I call them Kurds, they have no homeland. I call them Nepalese, they have no true homeland. A group of people or geographical reference does not a country make.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
Obviously you didn't bother to read the article, since it would mean proving yourself wrong

The headline of your first story:

Saudis reportedly funding Iraqi Sunnis
Do you need a definition of "reportedly" or do you already understand the word?

money they said was headed for insurgents.
But they did not see it delivered to insurgents.

Two high-ranking Iraqi officials, speaking on condition of 96 because of the issue's sensitivity, told the AP
Those are called unnamed sources and are generally unreliable.

an Iraqi official said $25 million in Saudi money went to a top Iraqi Sunni cleric and was used to buy weapons, including Strela, a Russian shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile.
And he knows for a fact how?

But the Iraq Study Group said "funding for the Sunni insurgency comes from private individuals within Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states."
Oops, there goes your link to the Saudi government and the Iraq study group.

Saddam's army had Strelas; it is not known how many survived the 2003 war. The Strela is a shoulder-fired, low-altitude system with a passive infrared guidance system.
Go figure!

The headline of your second story link says it all....

If US leaves Iraq we will arm Sunni militias, Saudis say
No kidding, like Iran and Syria wouldn't be sending everything they can as well.

Nice try.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 34):
And what difference does it make if he is Jewish or not?

The answer to this question is of course obvious, but since you apparently need to hear it:

Because one's religion makes one biased towards that religion, people who practice it, and states that follow it.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 34):
Anti-semites who can't stand the US-Israel relationship don't seem to understand that the majority of Americans are both pro-Israel and NOT Jewish.

Arguably true, but the majority of Americans who aren't Jewish don't make it their personal mission in life to "defend" Israel at all costs. They don't forever try to convince the rest of America that every regime in the ME should be changed to suit he needs of Israel.

Someday you're going to have to confront the fact that it is Israel's actions, and not the quality of being Jewish, that causes the entire world to condemn Israel. I don't care and most Arabs/Muslims don't care whether the Israelis are Jews, Christians or Buddhists....it is their behavior that is key. (or at least the perception of their behavior)

Do some leaders use the Jews as an excuse for their own failed policies? Yes, but this doesn't mean you should accept their rationale that this is all a religious conflict.

When you can confront this, you'll be a lot closer to achieving your goal of ensuring the safety and survival of Israel. Continuing to frame this conflict in religious terms will only see the eventual destruction of your favorite Jewish nation.

Cairo
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
Someday you're going to have to confront the fact that it is Israel's actions, and not the quality of being Jewish, that causes the entire world to condemn Israel

Oh you are so full of it as always, blaming the victim. That is like saying the Jews in Germany were to blame for what happened to them.

This world can be divided into the righteous who stand with Israel and the anti-liberal elements who are no different than Nazis. I hope you are happy knowing what page you stand on.

Congressman Trent Franks of Arizona, a devout Christian who is one of Israel's best friends on Capitol Hill, speaking about the Israel-Lebanon war this past summer:

Mr. FRANKS of Arizona. Madam Speaker, I thank the gentlewoman for allowing me the time to speak on behalf of this resolution, and I will be very brief.

Madam Speaker, whether we understand it or not, tonight the world faces an evil, poisonous ideology that threatens the peace and freedom of humankind. This ideology is not new, Madam Speaker. It is the same one that murdered Israeli athletes in 1972, that took American hostages in Iran, that murdered marines in their barracks in 1983, that bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, Riyadh in 1995, the Khobar Towers in 1996, the embassies in 1998, the U.S.S. Cole in 2000, and then, Madam Speaker, that same ideology massacred nearly 3,000 Americans on September 11.

And tonight, Madam Speaker, that same dark, insidious ideology is launching rockets into Israel to slaughter innocent, freedom-loving civilians. This is why Israel's war is our war.

If there is hope for peace and freedom in this world, free peoples across this planet must unite with Israel to defeat this hellish ideology. The battle Israel fights tonight is a battle to protect all of humanity. May the people of Israel take comfort knowing that America stands with you in these difficult days. May you come to victory, and may the light of God's peace shine down on the streets of Jerusalem forever.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
I call them Kurds, they have no homeland. I call them Nepalese, they have no true homeland. A group of people or geographical reference does not a country make.

You are grasping at straws and making up your "rules" as you go along. Once you learned tonight that the Palestinians never agreed to Israel and have no agreement to "abide by" you had to change your mind and now you say because they had no country they have no right of self-determination.

BTW, why did you give up trying to argue that the Palestinians would be just fine if they would have abided by their agreement to create Israel?

Since the Kurds, Nepalese, and whoever else don't have what you call a country, they get zero say in what happens to them? The UN would be right with creating a Buddhist nation in Nepal or a Hindu nation in Kurdish Iraq?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Those are called unnamed sources and are generally unreliable.

Yes - James Baker, a right wing Republican and Bush supporter, says the Saudis are supporting parts of the Iraqi insurgency, but you know better.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Oops, there goes your link to the Saudi government and the Iraq study group.

The only people wealthy enough in the KSA to support an Iraqi insurgency is the royal family or their cronies. Quite true, the KSA has made a very careful tactic to not have official government support of the insurgents, but nevertheless the cousins and inlaws of the government are supporting the insurgents.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Nice try.

It doesn't matter what sources are used, you make your mind up first, regardless of the evidence. The rest of us look at the evidence and then make up our minds, and frequently we even change our minds. The simple truth is that part of the insurgency killing US forces in Iraq is supported by Saudi Arabia.

Again, why are you so obsessed with arguing the Saudis aren't supporting the insurgency in Iraq?

Cairo

More proof that the insurgency has KSA support, but don't bother to find any evidence for your strange undocumented views:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148635,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6885867/site/newsweek/
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Dec...0,4670,IraqInsurgencySaudi,00.html
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
This world can be divided into the righteous who stand with Israel and the anti-liberal elements who are no different than Nazis. I hope you are happy knowing what page you stand on.

So if I'm against anything the Israeli Govt. does (no matter how illegal, immoral, etc.), I'm not part of the "righteous" and "no different than Nazis"?

Do you actually believe in what you write?

Your comments are so typical...no wonder Norman G. Finkelstein has a field day with people like you.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
Oh you are so full of it as always, blaming the victim.

It isn't about blaming anyone, it is about accepting responsibility for your actions.

People don't just pick on Israel because its Jewish, most Arabs and Muslims don't care anything about the religion of those that make war on them. But you and Ahmadinejad want to hide behind the idea that this is a religious dispute - thereby eliminating the necessary internal reflection that would reveal it is the actions of the belligerants on both sides, not their religion, that is so offensive.

I'm sure you don't hate any Muslims because of their religion, now grow up and realize no one besides Ahmadinejad style extremists think anything about Jews or Israel merely because they are Jews.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 38):
This world can be divided into the righteous who stand with Israel and the anti-liberal elements who are no different than Nazis.

This thinking is exactly what will see the eventual end of Israel - as long as you see only friends and enemies, that is exactly what you will create for yourself. The problem is Israel has only one friend and its enemies are immense. Israel's one friend has wasted its power in Iraq, its credibility is near zero, its mood for overseas conflicts is low, and its global power is relatively declining. Do you think it might be time to get Israel fully functioning with its neighbords without depending on America for survival?

Where do you think this is heading? You think Israel can keep on behaving like this...and as its enemies acquire nuclear weapons...where do you think they will be used? Sure, Israel will cause a big counterpunch in the event of war, but it can not possibly win a perpetual war against the Muslim world.

You've got to get beyond your vision of what is right or wrong and beyond repeating plattitudes and catchphrase - you've got to realize that Israel is in a hugely dangerous situation and the only possible way for it to survive is for it to change its ways.

I want the same thing you want, btw, which is the Jews in Israel living in peace. Nothing would make me happier than to hear about Israel as often as I hear of any other tiny nation, namely, never.

Cairo
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):

You said "agreement". There is NO agreement. The land was taken without any AGREEMENT from the Palestinians, the Arabs, or anyone.

Get your facts right. The UN agreed. Israel agreed. The arab countries didn't.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Agreement means both sides agree.

And guess wich side didn't agree ?

"We will never recognize Israel, and in the end the [fate of] Zionists will be like that of the Crusaders, the Persians and the English, who left," said Zahar, a founding father of Hamas.

"We want all of Palestine, every centimeter, from the river to the sea, from Rosh Hanikra to Rafah. If we can form a state within the 1967 borders we will do so, but this doesn't mean that we will relinquish our right to every centimeter of Palestine's land."

Palestinian Foreign Minister, Mahmoud Zahar

The biggest enemies of the palestinians are their own leaders.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):
So if I'm against anything the Israeli Govt. does (no matter how illegal, immoral, etc.), I'm not part of the "righteous" and "no different than Nazis"?

Well, was there ever an Israeli government you weren't against. This is quite the usual refrain, 'I am not against Israel, I am against the government'. Who guarantees the existance of Israel if but the government?

And what is your solution? If your solution essentially calls for the disappearance of Israel and the millions of Jews that live there, regardless of what your other rhetoric calls for, what does that make you?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 41):
Do you think it might be time to get Israel fully functioning with its neighbords without depending on America for survival?

But as you and I know, some of their neighbors have made it official that they will NEVER deal with Israel, namely Saudi Arabia.
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
most Arabs/Muslims don't care whether the Israelis are Jews, Christians or Buddhists....it is their behavior that is key. (or at least the perception of their behavior)

You're plain wrong. Palestinians interviewed on TV always use the term "yahud" (jews) and not "israelis". My arabic is probably not as good as yours, but I still understand the palestinian TV channels.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 43):
But as you and I know, some of their neighbors have made it official that they will NEVER deal with Israel, namely Saudi Arabia.

wrong. King Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz, then Crown Prince, is the author of his own peace-plan for Israel/Palestine which includes the full and definite recognition of Israel and his politics are based on his proposals. And neighbours ? Syria is in frequent contact with Israel and quite recently again made some proposals for a solution of the problems. Lebanon has been in contact with Israel for decades. Jordan and Egypt have peace-treaties with Israel. Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia and most of the Arab Gulf-States have low-level relations with Israel. The only country which until recently refused any dealing with Israel was Libya which however at present is gradually softening its positions.
-
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 8):
Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip ended over a year ago; that is why there is so much squabbling in Gaza today. As many pundits have been saying for years, the Palestinians will need to fight a civil war between the moderates who truly want peace and the extremists who want to push Israel into the sea...

Israeli occupation never really ended - have you been living under a rock? Since they left, Israel has made life just as bad as when it was "occupying" the Gaza Strip, the Israeli presence is still very strong in Gaza so cut the technicalities.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Regardless of what wrongs the West has done in the ME, the area still should take responsibility for their actions, instead of (rightfully or wrongly) blaming the West for their problems. Being a victim makes another party responsible for correcting the wrongs, instead of simply moving forward and saying 'damn the torpedoes.'

When the West has made mistakes, we will point them out whether the West likes it or not - there is a lot that is wrong today which is a direct result of what the West has done. But, I agree that more has to be done to correct wrongs. On that point, I want to ask - what can be done? Every time someone speaks out against the Al Sauds or Mubarak of Egypt, who are very strongly backed by the US, they pay the price, in many countries change is occurring but slowly - in contrast to popular belief, change is happening but it is impossible with the world's only superpower backing many of the regimes that are causing the issues.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
This is a similar dynamic that some individuals use to justify their lot in life. Some people and groups use the fact of having been the victim to just sit there and wait for others to improve their lives. Some people and groups simply don't let the past affect their current behavior.

What can the Palestinians do, if they are who you are referring to? They are under constant occupation and can't do anything about it, Palestinians have tried everything possible and it has become painfully obvious that any peace that occurs will only look at the interests of the Israelis, and will ignore that of the Palestinians. The reason there is no change is the lack of compromise on Israel's behalf - the Palestinians have asked for a '67 state, the right of return and full independence, and Israel has denied all three.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
A united Palestinian people would be a much stronger group to deal with than Palestinians infighting and giving others reason to believe they are not ready for additional responsibilities.

Agree 100%

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Which just goes to prove that you can't help an arab nation out. If you try they end up coming back to bite the hand that helped them.

What it proves is that the West, especially the US, don't know what their doing. In Iraq, the US went in thinking every Iraqi will be throwing flowers at their feet, and they did not understand the country they had "liberated" at all - look at the result. As for Palestine, who are you kidding? The US has never even considered looking at things objectively, they have always been blatantly biased to the Israelis and that hardly helps matters.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
Cue violins........He was in power without us. He was gassing Kurds without us. He was building a nuclear reactor without us. Yes Iraq would be a different place today, Saddam would still be in power and his sons would still be raping women and killing men at random.

All of this was done with the US turning a blind eye to it, until he invaded Kuwait - Iraq would have been very different today if he didn't have US support, because he wouldn't have been able to handle the backlash if he tried anything. Even the Iran war, the war that pretty much destroyed Iraq, was not possible without the US - Saddam even said he only went in because of the US's support.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
Well you can't have it both ways. Elect terrorists into the government, burn down and loot western embassies and at the same time expect to be fed by them. Where's all that wonderful Muslim solidarity everzbody is talking about ALL the time? How come "brothers" in Tehran, Doha, Islamabad , Cairo or Ryiadh are not exactly falling over themselves to foot the bill for Palestinians?

They are helping the Palestinians, only last week the Al Quds endowment project was started here in Doha, and the Qataris have continually helped the Palestinians out; they gave $50 million when everyone cut everything off. As for the rest of them, I don't know so I really can't say.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
It's much better if Hamas nutjobs kill Fatah nutjobs and vice versa than see these cowards blow themselves up in Israeli discos, cafes and buses.

And fuck the civilians caught up in the middle of it all, right? They aren't exactly Israelis. I can only imagine how the world would have reacted if the three boys killed this week were Israeli  Yeah sure

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
At least you're finally able to admit the truth. It's not about the land, it's about the people occupying it.

Who are you kidding? Its about both, there was no hatred towards Jews in Palestine before the huge influx of Jewish immigrants. The immigrants came in speaking of establishing a new state on Palestinian land, hence the rising of hatred towards them.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Since the Palestinians, once again going over old ground, did not have a country prior to 1947 they didn't have any say in it. But given that they had not had a country before they should have been happy to have one then. Instead, true to form, all or nothing, and now 60 years later they have only a smidgen of what they could have had at an absolutely terrible cost.

So what your saying is its OK to expel/kill people if they aren't represented by a government? That even if they had lived there for over a thousand years, it doesn't matter because there was no independent Palestinian government?

Quoting 7474ever (Reply 44):
You're plain wrong. Palestinians interviewed on TV always use the term "yahud" (jews) and not "israelis". My arabic is probably not as good as yours, but I still understand the palestinian TV channels.

The term Yahud doesn't imply that this is because they are Jewish, it is a common word used because that is what the Jews were referred to since before Israel was established and it has carried on. Also, many people do not recognize Israel, hence they describe them as yahud.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 39):
You are grasping at straws and making up your "rules" as you go along. Once you learned tonight that the Palestinians never agreed to Israel and have no agreement to "abide by" you had to change your mind and now you say because they had no country they have no right of self-determination.

Well lets take a look at just whom is grasping at straws shall we?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
If the Palestinians, who never had a country before 1947, had aboded by the agreements who knows where they might be as a people and country today.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
How about the one where it says that Israel has a right to exist? Or the one that gave them (the Palestinians) the bigger piece of the pie and the better part of it as well.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
So much for abiding by UN resolutions. If Palestinians couldn't abide by the first one which actually gave them a country,



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 36):
Since the Palestinians, once again going over old ground, did not have a country prior to 1947 they didn't have any say in it.

So lets be clear, I have been consistent since I entered the thread. You have claimed that first Palestine was a country in its own right back in 1712.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 24):
Here is a 1712 map, odd how it describes the region as Palestine, for a place that never existed.

But then when at least one other person challenged you as to where it said Palestine was a country in its own right you come back with...

Quoting Cairo (Reply 27):
If you'd bother reading the post, you'd see the point of the map is to confirm that the place was known as Palestine for centuries,

And when I brought up the fact that in truth Palestine and its people were actually subjects of the Ottoman Empire you come back with...

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
AFAIK the people living in Palestine never had an independent government during the time of the Ottoman Empire.

So you finally agree that Palestine was never a country. As such the people living there, Jews and Arabs, were subject to what the legitimate countries that held control over the land had to say. Your example of Aztecs getting Arizona land has precedent, they are called American Indian reservations.

As to your news sources, the one thing that all your stories have in common is that they involve individuals not the government of Saudi Arabia. Individuals are free to do as they choose. If they want to go to Iraq and get themselves killed for no good reason then that is their business. Get back to me when you have a documented, verifiable story that implicates the government of Saudi Arabia helping the terrorists as part of their strategic policy, like Iran.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 46):
So what your saying is its OK to expel/kill people if they aren't represented by a government? That even if they had lived there for over a thousand years, it doesn't matter because there was no independent Palestinian government?

It is right to define borders for creation of countries where a country does not exist where the principals agree. It happened elsewhere at about the same time. India and Pakistan. While they don't agree on Kashmir they have been able to effectively live peacefully for the same amount of time that the Palestinians have spent digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
7474ever
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:16 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 46):
The term Yahud doesn't imply that this is because they are Jewish

Yes, it does. Stop playing with words.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 46):
Also, many people do not recognize Israel, hence they describe them as yahud.

Well, that's the problem. You can't really make peace with someone who denies your right to exsist, can you ?
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Trouble In Palestine

Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 32):
AFAIK the people living in Palestine never had an independent government during the time of the Ottoman Empire. Before America was created the Native Americans likewise had no boundaries and no unified government. Many native peoples are in this situation and don't fit neatly into your American ideas of government or nation-states.

Your lack of knowledge about Native American society, law, and government is painfully obvious and likely derived from Western movies, the Lone Ranger reruns and comic books.

Speak of things you know, and leave the analogies concerning things of which you know nothing aside, including the cutting, snotty remarks.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

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