AsstChiefMark
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Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:03 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16220398/

I wonder who will get the bill for the rescue.

Mark
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Jetsgo
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Thread starter):

I wonder who will get the bill for the rescue.

The families possibly? Or maybe the others who, although doubtful, are possibly still alive?

This is a sad story indeed.


Chris
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AirCop
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:28 am

Climbing Mt. Hood anytime of the year is dangerous, but in the winter its just plain stupid. Sad way to lose one life, doing something like this in the winter.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Thread starter):
I wonder who will get the bill for the rescue.

I would imagine the total for the rescue is well into six figures, assuming Oregon has a law that allows the rescue service to bill the idiots, I doubt the county will every get reimbursed fully.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:31 am

I do a lot of solo back country hiking and I've just started to get into solo slot canyon hiking. I take a certain amount of risk everytime I go out in the wilderness by myself. This kind of accident really perturbs me since it was so avoidable. The weather in that portion of the country just hasn't been good at all lately. Unless they were practicing for some sort of high altitude climb later on, like in the Himalayas, I'd love to know what provoked them to tempt fate by climbing with the forecasts as dismal as they have been. It's sad to see anyone lose a life or limb but sometimes you have to stand back and just marvel at the risk people take.

I'm not sure who foots the bill for this. If the find a survivor then they will probably get stuck but if all three are gone, something tells me all involved will find a way to fit this into the "training" budget.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
I would imagine the total for the rescue is well into six figures

I saw the National Guard was using two CH-47's and one UH-60 all day. I wonder what they charge for their helicopters and personnel. Then there's the private rescue teams. And the local government-based rescue teams.

Some rescue agencies sue to collect from life insurance policies and place liens on property and/or garnishment of future wages.

Mark
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KPDX
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:38 am

Awww, really sad news.  Sad

KPDX  Smile
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 4):
I saw the National Guard was using two CH-47's and one UH-60 all day.

It was 2 Hawks and one Shithook . . . .

Average cost per hour for a Hawk - non-gov't rate - is @ $2800.00 . . . just for the bird.

But that will not be billed to anyone - it's normal ops-tempo for the Air Guard/Army Guard rescue crews. They are budgeted for it. Part of their "Operations other than War".

Can't speak about the law enforcement end of it - but I've never heard of ANY Alaska LEA/Rescue unit billing anyone for a rescue. It's the cost of doing business.

Alaska's 210 Air Rescue Squadron is designed for this stuff, their entire reason for being is to rescue people. Six MH-60G Pavehawk Helos and an HC130N, plus appropriate personnel.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 4):
Some rescue agencies sue to collect from life insurance policies

Life Insurance Policies can't be tagged . . . . . they can sure the beneficiary and perhaps collect later, but the policy itself cannot be encumbered via law suit (or back taxes, blah, blah, blah).

If anyone gets a bill, I'll be surprised . . .

No, where are the other two?
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L-188
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Can't speak about the law enforcement end of it - but I've never heard of ANY Alaska LEA/Rescue unit billing anyone for a rescue. It's the cost of doing business.

Actually I think the NPS has been requiring rescue insurance on Mckinley for a few years now.

Now I know for a fact that a couple of jerk-offs who have been caught setting off false alarms have been ordered by the courts to remburse the goverment for search expenses, but I don't think the restitution has ever equaled what was actually spent.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
Actually I think the NPS has been requiring rescue insurance on Mckinley for a few years now.

Correct . . . . but that's NOT life insurance. Big difference. It's rather more like "Trip Insurance".
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Thread starter):
I wonder who will get the bill for the rescue.

Is that common practice from a government-initiated mission?
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atct
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:22 am

Sad. From one outdoorsman to another, we're all sad to hear this ended this way. I hope the family does well and finally has closure.


Regarding the climb and the weather, we dont know what was going on in their heads or what they were thinking. I just hope that climbers/hikers can learn from where they made mistakes.


ATCT
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NeilYYZ
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:23 am

Very unfortunate news. May he rest in peace.
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seb146
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
This kind of accident really perturbs me since it was so avoidable. The weather in that portion of the country just hasn't been good at all lately

I have lived in the Pacific Northwest all my life and I know the weather in the mountains changes in the blink of an eye. To hear news reports saying these are "experienced" hikers makes me shake my head in disbelef. If they really were so experienced, they never ever would have attempted the summit in the middle of winter!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
It's sad to see anyone lose a life or limb but sometimes you have to stand back and just marvel at the risk people take.

No, I don't want to see anyone lose their life, either. But, again, if they really were as experienced as they say, they never would have tried this!

GO CANUCKS!!
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 9):
Is that common practice from a government-initiated mission?

The government-owned fire, rescue, and EMS agencies around here bill for services rendered. Extensive events can get pretty spendy.

Mark
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AirCop
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 13):
The government-owned fire, rescue, and EMS agencies around here bill for services rendered. Extensive events can get pretty spendy.

Ditto here in Arizona, oh yes even 15 years ago the CHP was charging the clowns that got arrested for DUI, don't know if that's still in effect so local government can charge for using poor judgement.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 12):
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
This kind of accident really perturbs me since it was so avoidable. The weather in that portion of the country just hasn't been good at all lately

I have lived in the Pacific Northwest all my life and I know the weather in the mountains changes in the blink of an eye. To hear news reports saying these are "experienced" hikers makes me shake my head in disbelef. If they really were so experienced, they never ever would have attempted the summit in the middle of winter!

I went to junior college back in the middle sixties in northern New Hampshire and there was always someone who tried something like this in the late fall and got caught out by the weather. One time you could see two of them from the highway in Franconia Notch roped in halfway up the side of a cliff face where they'd frozen to death...couldn't go up or down.
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N174UA
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
Climbing Mt. Hood anytime of the year is dangerous, but in the winter its just plain stupid. Sad way to lose one life, doing something like this in the winter.

Very true. I remember like it was yesterday when those 11 or so students from the Oregon Epispocal School died in the worst Mt. Hood climbing disaster back in May of 1986.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 12):
No, I don't want to see anyone lose their life, either. But, again, if they really were as experienced as they say, they never would have tried this!

Well, these climbers, although experienced, took the Cooper Spur route to the summit, which is much more difficult from what I understand, and they underestimated how long it would take to reach the summit. I haven't climbed Hood myself (no plans) and not entirely sure what the best route is up to the summit. I think it might be from Timberline Lodge?

The only mountain I want to climb in my lifetime is Mt. St. Helens, on the south side, up to Monitor Ridge. A true dream come true would be going right into the crater! Anyway, I've talked to people who have done St. Helens, and it's actually easier in the winter, because one can use ice picks, etc. etc. In the summer, it's harder because you're on bare pumice and ash, and it's two steps forward, one step back the entire way.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:21 am

This story has all the elements of tragedy in it, unfortunately. We already know that one of the climbers is dead, and the other two, presuming that they are still alive, are stuck in Arctic-like conditions. I pray for the safe return of the remaining two. God bless them and their families. And, most of all, my heart goes out to the family and friends of the deceased; what a horrible, horrible thing to happen to them.
What's fair is fair.
 
seb146
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:31 pm

The current theory is the other two climbers left to get help and fell down a cravasse on the Cooper Spur route. It is also reported the weather will hold Tuesday for search teams to keep looking.

GO CANUCKS!!
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:10 am

There is still hope that the remaining two are alive, but from many accounts, it seems that this hope is fading. Photographs developed from the disposable camera found on the deceased climber's body showed that the trio were equipped, albeit well-equipped, only for a short expedition. As well, certain items were found abandoned in or near one of the snow caves rescuers have found.

The fact is that this story is about a classic archetype -- man against the elements. This is why it's so compelling to so many of us. The vast majority of us couldn't last more than a few days so far atop Mount Hood, but these were experienced climbers who knew what they were doing, and so the possibility remains that two are still alive despite all that nature has thrown against them.

To be sure, there are now signs of dissatisfaction among some of the reading public on the basis that the three climbers took what is claimed to be inordinate risks in undertaking the climb, despite the fact that it appears that all three succeeded in reaching the summit. However, let's keep in mind that it was perhaps only the misfortune of the deceased climber, who seems to have suffered a dislocated shoulder during either the ascent or the descent, that interfered with what otherwise could have been a perfectly feasible adventure. If this is so, it's yet more proof that even the best-laid plans of mice and men may fall apart in the face of circumstances beyond anyone's control.

[Edited 2006-12-20 00:20:16]
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:15 am

They have to be getting close to the point where money will come in to play and they'll simply have to write off the two remaining climbers.

Mark
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 20):
They have to be getting close to the point where money will come in to play and they'll simply have to write off the two remaining climbers.

Yes, I believe you may be right, sadly.

I was stunned to learn that there are bodies of those who have apparently fallen into crevasses on Mt. Hood on previous expeditions that remain there to this day.

[Edited 2006-12-20 00:21:08]
What's fair is fair.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
This story has all the elements of tragedy in it, unfortunately. We already know that one of the climbers is dead, and the other two, presuming that they are still alive, are stuck in Arctic-like conditions. I pray for the safe return of the remaining two. God bless them and their families. And, most of all, my heart goes out to the family and friends of the deceased; what a horrible, horrible thing to happen to them.

My thoughts exactly.  pray 

Dave
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OPNLguy
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:24 pm

What really strikes me as especially sad about the ordeal of the Mt. Hood climbers (as well as the ordeal of the Kim family last month) is that neither incident had to happen, and were easily preventable had they had a GPS-enabled 406 Mhz personal locator beacon (PLB) with them. If they had, their location (within 300 feet) could have been established within an hour, if not minutes, and help been sent on the way, weather permitting, of course. PLBs do cost a bit--$650 or so--but they rent for only about $60 a week. Even at $650, that cost pales in comparison with the amount of public money spent on the two search and rescue/recovery efforts, not to mention the human misery that cold have been avoided. The rescuers could have been saved from the exposure to adverse conditions as well.

Obviously, there's no way one can make life completely risk-free, but there are things that can be done to mitigate the risk(s). The potential for getting lost while driving in the summer has different risks than potentially getting lost while driving in the mountains in the winter. Likewise with mountain climbing, and it doesn't appear that proper preparation were accomplished for the "what-ifs" in each incident.

Coverage of the Mt. Hood incident has been heavy here in the Dallas area, since 2 of the 3 climbers were from here. While I hope they find the other two missing climbers alive, I suspect they're no longer with us. If they fell into a crevice or were otherwise buried in snow, it may end up being the spring thaw before the snow retreats and their bodies can be located and recovered. If so, that's just more emotional suffering for the families, which, again, could have all been avoided.
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ltbewr
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:27 am

While I am sorry to hear about the loss the lives of these hikers, and the failures so far to locate them or thier bodies, I wonder why this is a national story. I would rather that the media's time and attention be directed to the 50+ American solders killed in Iraq this month so far, why and how they are being killed and the greiving of their families. Of course, the media doesn't want to piss off the military, politicans and their viewers with such depressing reality.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:08 am

CNN Headline News just announced that all rescue efforts have ceased, not only due to the next approaching storm, but because they feel like they exhausted all reasonable possibilities that they're still alive given the level of stuff they were pictured having with them. I presume that once the next storm passes, they'll start doing an avalanche search to try and locate the bodies...

How sad for the families...  Sad
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:28 am

A tragic story, indeed! My heart goes out to all those affected.
What's fair is fair.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 23):
PLBs do cost a bit--$650 or so

Yep, they are pricey, but what good is that money gonna do ya when you are dead?  yes 

As much as I hate to say it, what happened to those hikers could easily happen to any of us, at just about any time. I've had a couple of occasions were I thought to myself that "Well, I'll only be gone for a little bit...." and nearly ended up not coming home at all.

When my financial situation permits, I'll be buying a PLB.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:36 pm

I heard on CNN through XM Satellite Radio that devices called Mountain Locator Units were available for rent for use on Mount Hood at $50.00 per unit. Apparently, these were developed in response to a tragedy there some years ago where a number of people on a high school field trip lost their lives on the mountain. Neither the late Kelly James nor either of his two companions, now presumed lost, carried one.

The CNN report featured a demonstration that showed that the device was effective. However, for a more cynical view concerning its usefulness under the circumstances that struck the expedition at hand, please see:

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/12/190675.php

[Edited 2006-12-21 04:44:56]
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
Climbing Mt. Hood anytime of the year is dangerous, but in the winter its just plain stupid. Sad way to lose one life, doing something like this in the winter.

I agree that it is a sad story, but it is one that is incredibly stupid.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
This story has all the elements of tragedy in it, unfortunately.

And stupidity. More stupidity than tragedy, to be honest. WTF couldn't they have climbed Mt. Hood in the summertime?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 28):
I heard on CNN through XM Satellite Radio that devices called Mountain Locator Units were available for rent for use on Mount Hood at $50.00 per unit. Apparently, these were developed in response to a tragedy there some years ago where a number of people on a high school field trip lost their lives on the mountain

There was a similar story here on one of the Dallas stations, and although mentioning the MLU, they spent more time on avalanche beacons. Both stories sort of miss the point, as MLUs, avalanche beacons, and PLBs are all technically different, and the first two have some limitations.

Avalanche beacons are really short-range items, and a rescuer would have to be within no more than a few hundred feet from a buried victim. Guys lost on a mountain would be way too far out of range if their general location wasn't known.

MLUs (in the wearer's cloths, clipped to backpacks, etc.) are pretty much just "dumb" beacons, and rescuers use a Yagi antenna to home in them. You know all those wildlife specials on the Nature Channel where they're tracking a radio collar-equipped wolf or bear or whatever with what looks like a mini TV antenna from your attic? That's pretty much a MLU kind of arrangement.

PLBs are latest and greatest, and came out in 2003. You buy one, and you have to register it with NOAA before you can ever use it. Once you register, you and your contact info are in the database. If you're later lost out in the boonies and activate it (a model with an internal GPS), it sends your GPS location and userID up to one of the satellites, and eventually to the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (AFRCC). They try your contact numbers from the database, and if no answer, they now have your location (to within 100 meters or so) and can launch SAR your way, all within a couple of hours of whenever you decide you're in trouble and push the button. Not days, not weeks, but hours. SAR might not be able to get to you immediately due to weather, etc., but they now know where you are, which is half of the search and rescue equation.

To sum it up, the avalanche beacon is like a hand grenade; the MLU is like a dumb iron bomb, and the PLB is like a "smart bomb". I don't mean to sound like a commercial here, but I've decided to buy a PLB and I've been doing a little research. I was going to wait until summer since the kids and I travel alot, but I decided to get one now since the ex-wife is taking the kids into snow country between Christmas and New Year's. We don't see alot of snow here in Dallas (hardly any), and I'd like the peace-of-mind in case she gets lost/stuck on a snowy road somewhere, ala' the Kim family. As many trips as the kids and I take during the summer, the PLB will financially pay for itself (versus a rental) in a couple of years, but the payback on peace-of-mind will be immediate.

http://www.acralive.com/jperkizas.htm
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:14 am

Very interesting and comprehensive description! I am most appreciative.

I wish you well in your adventures, and I think your decision to buy the very best kind of locator is a good one.
What's fair is fair.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 31):
Very interesting and comprehensive description! I am most appreciative.

I wish you well in your adventures, and I think your decision to buy the very best kind of locator is a good one.

Thanks. I certainly don't plan for it to be an "innoculation" against the need for prudent planning (driving I-10 across the desert without water, driving in winter without blankets, and some food in the trunk), but just to have it handy just in case Murphy's Law or an accident occurs. The only places I can find having them in-stock have their prices at the full $699 MSRP, and a $75 rebate, so while it's still a bit of sticker shock, I think how readily the Kim family or those of the Mt. Hood climbers would consider $624 in the blink of an eye...
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Mt. Hood Climber Found Dead

Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:13 am

^^As the Boy Scouts, I believe, say, always be prepared. It's a good motto!
What's fair is fair.

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