rjpieces
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Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:01 am

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ali16dec16,0,4520813.story

Excellent and interesting commentary by Hirsi Ali...Thoughts folks?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
AGM100
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:36 am

When living in Israel , our next door neighbours (Shuleme & David) both had their arms tattooed with numbers. The tattoos were very crude and the numbers were not legible any longer. According to their accounts the tattoos were given to them when they arrived at the camp. Shuleme and David were fortunate to be strong enough at the time to be sent to forced labor camp instead of just killed. They of course ended up surviving the war , but in Davids case he was the only one from his entire family that did.

In my mind , the story of the holocaust is very real. My mother and Father (gentile) told us the stories that they had been told and it has always been a part of my life. WWII was a terrible time for all Europeans , and its lessons should never be forgotten. But know one can deny the Nazi ,efficiently operated systematic slaughter of the Jews. True may other ethnic groups were targeted as well, Gypsy's , Christians , but the Jews were defiantly prioritized.

This would be a good time for a official statement by the German government perhaps. I believe that Germany has moved passed this period of there history. Germany has become a society that IMO has joined the league of mankind and works towards the betterment of all people on earth. Their condemnation of the holocaust denial would certainly blunt this insane argument.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:41 am

While I agree with the sentiment of the author, I think he is wrong about the fundamental reason why Muslims deny the holocaust.

It has been expressed very eloquently by the author of a new book called "Among the Righteous" named Robert B. Satloff. His book is about the Arab Muslims in North Africa that helped Jews evade the Holocaust in WWII. He talks about the denial of some of the families who's parents or grand-parents aided Jews during World War II in defiance of the Nazis.

The reason is if Muslims agree with the premise of the Holocaust then the cede the "Moral High Ground" to the Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The Holocaust gives Israel the right to exist. The Right of Israel to exist is so anathema to Muslims that they would rather deny the actions of genuine heroes among them.

That is the saddest indictment of the Islamic world.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:59 am

Hirsi Ali is a stupid bitch who'll say anything to make herself look more liberal and distance herself from a religion she hardly understands and constantly attacks.

First of all, based on the account of one woman with a very strong, clear bias, you can draw the conclusion that most of the Muslim world hasn't even heard of the holocaust! Please! Everyone knows what the holocaust was and most people sympathize wit the Jews.

Second of all: With great conviction, my half-sister cried: "It's a lie! Jews have a way of blinding people. They were not killed, gassed or massacred. But I pray to Allah that one day all the Jews in the world will be destroyed."

So Hirsi Ali's idiot of a sister is evidence of the entire Islamic world thinking in certain manner?

Thirdly, She was not saying anything new. As a child growing up in Saudi Arabia, I remember my teachers, my mom and our neighbors telling us practically on a daily basis that Jews are evil, the sworn enemies of Muslims, and that their only goal was to destroy Islam. We were never informed about the Holocaust.

Do you believe any Muslim is stupid enough to think Jews are out there only so they can destroy us? This, as well as not being informed about the holocaust, was bullshit. If her family raised her in this manner, it doesn't automatically extend to all other Muslim families.

And finally, Later, as a teenager in Kenya, when Saudi and other Persian Gulf philanthropy reached us, I remember that the building of mosques and donations to hospitals and the poor went hand in hand with the cursing of Jews. Jews were said to be responsible for the deaths of babies and for epidemics such as AIDS, and they were believed to be the cause of wars. They were greedy and would do absolutely anything to kill us Muslims. If we ever wanted to know peace and stability, and if we didn't want to be wiped out, we would have to destroy the Jews. For those of us who were not in a position to take up arms against them, it was enough for us to cup our hands, raise our eyes heavenward and pray to Allah to destroy them.

 rotfl  Priceless... and it doesn't surprise me that RJPieces was the one to post this bullshit and agree with it.

You know what? I think you, Ann Coutler and Hirsi Ali should all meet up and arrange a threesome. God knows you all need to get laid, and you guys are perfect for each other.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
The reason is if Muslims agree with the premise of the Holocaust then the cede the "Moral High Ground" to the Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The Holocaust gives Israel the right to exist. The Right of Israel to exist is so anathema to Muslims that they would rather deny the actions of genuine heroes among them.

a) The holocaust in no way justifies the State of Israel, it is an unrelated event and we Palestinians are in no way supposed to pay for the crimes of others, especially Westerners. If Europe couldn't keep Hitler in check, that was Europe's fault, and they should have taken care of the Jews - not thrown it upon us, and given our land away. The Holocaust in no way gives Israel a right to exist.

b) Muslims do not deny the holocaust. While some might, it is hardly something common in Muslim society, thats like saying "all Christian pastors are gay child molesters". It doesn't work that way.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
windshear
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
Everyone knows

That is a very very bold statement by you, I have no idea how you can speak on behalf of the 1.3 Billion Muslims on the planet.

You grew up with good education and never had an empty stomach, surely you are not all Muslims.

I think it is much more baseless, that you constantly speak of a religion and Muslims as one mass, when really you are just telling us, what you feel and think.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
That is a very very bold statement by you, I have no idea how you can speak on behalf of the 1.3 Billion Muslims on the planet.

Those who don't know, don't care. It is ridiculous to state that Muslims are intentionally not taught about the holocaust and that all of our problems are automatically blamed on the Jews. Why isn't there an outcry about the Armenian Massacre by the Turks not being taught in the West?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
You grew up with good education and never had an empty stomach, surely you are not all Muslims.

So what? You have to be hungry and uneducated in order to understand things? Your statement somehow implies most Muslims are uneducated and hungry, which is simply not true. Furthermore, the fact that I am educated and well off does not change anything.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
I think it is much more baseless, that you constantly speak of a religion and Muslims as one mass, when really you are just telling us, what you feel and think.

So what are you and your buddy who started this post doing then, Windshear? The title states "Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust ". Is this not a generalization? And you really are not one to talk, you constantly generalize about Muslims and Palestinians, except the difference between me and you is that I AM a Muslim and a Palestinian while you know little about us.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:20 am

I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

Im betting no one will come up with a straight-forward and correct anwser.

These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AGM100
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
. If Europe couldn't keep Hitler in check, that was Europe's fault, and they should have taken care of the Jews - not thrown it upon us, and given our land away.

Land that 600,000 jews already lived in ? Land that at least you would agree had some ancient shared rights as "Jewish". The fact is that the "Palastinians" lost ! The Jews outsmarted you , and have built a stronger more advanced society. A society that can negotiate from a base of strength and legitimacy .. not just victimhood. True the holocuast forced the jews to inact taking back the land , and they have used it as motivation to fight for it. But they do not go around whinning about it, they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
lowrider
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
The Holocaust in no way gives Israel a right to exist.

Does Israel have the right to exist at all? If not by reason of the Holocaust, then what? To listen to certain people, the answer for your average Muslim would be, "no". If it should not exist in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, then where?
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
We were never informed about the Holocaust

OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Falcon84
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
So Hirsi Ali's idiot of a sister is evidence of the entire Islamic world thinking in certain manner?

She can't think for the entire Arab World-nor can you, as you try, my friend. But the actions of the Arab/Muslim world over the last 50 years shows they don't CARE if the Jews were exterminated in great numbers, simply because many Arabs/Muslims are trying to, or at least advocating, the same thing in this day and age-by destroying the State of Israel.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

Because to acknowledge it would mean the death of a mindset and a way of life passed down from generation to generation-blaming Israel and the U.S. for all their problems, and trying their damndest to destroy the Jewish State.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:56 am

To clarify - everything in bold from my previous post is quoted from the article.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

Im betting no one will come up with a straight-forward and correct anwser.

These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.

The real brainwashed people here are the ones who read an article and automatically look at it as if it were fact. Just because one person says it does not make it true.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Land that 600,000 jews already lived in ? Land that at least you would agree had some ancient shared rights as "Jewish". The fact is that the "Palastinians" lost ! The Jews outsmarted you , and have built a stronger more advanced society. A society that can negotiate from a base of strength and legitimacy .. not just victimhood. True the holocuast forced the jews to inact taking back the land , and they have used it as motivation to fight for it. But they do not go around whinning about it, they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.

600,000 Jews? Most of them were immigrants who came into Palestine after the British promised them a homeland there, and when the holocaust happened everyone turned a blind eye to what was going on in Palestine, including the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Palestinians, because they did not want to have to take on the burden of immigrant Jews themselves. The Palestinians are in no position to take action, they are either occupied, refugees or living in other countries as expatriates such as myself. And please don't tell me that we victimize ourself, especially when compared to the Jews, who seem to think that the holocaust gives them an excuse to mistreat others.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 8):
Does Israel have the right to exist at all? If not by reason of the Holocaust, then what? To listen to certain people, the answer for your average Muslim would be, "no". If it should not exist in the ancestral homeland of the Jews, then where?

The ancestral homeland of the Jews, you forget, had a majority Palestinian Arab population in it at the time, and the fact that Jews dominated it 2,000 years ago does not justify uprooting this population. We did not expel the Jews then, and we did not commit the holocaust - why should we have paid? Do the Palestinians not have the right to live in peace? What gives Israel the right to exist when it cost an entire population their livelihood, and thousands their lives? I refuse to accept that the holocaust was a basis for the establishment of Israel, especially since we had nothing whatsoever to do with it. Of all people, it should have been Europeans and Americans who took Jews in, they should not have given them land that belonged to others.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
OK. Let me get this straight. Because they weren't taught about the Holocaust as children means they can't acknowledge it now?

If you read the article, you would have realized the bold parts are quoting it. I completely disagree with this view, and agree that it must be acknowledged as historical fact.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
She can't think for the entire Arab World-nor can you, as you try, my friend. But the actions of the Arab/Muslim world over the last 50 years shows they don't CARE if the Jews were exterminated in great numbers, simply because many Arabs/Muslims are trying to, or at least advocating, the same thing in this day and age-by destroying the State of Israel.

Do you expect a Palestinian who was expelled and made to live in a refugee camp to care about whether Israel exists or not? All he/she would care about would be getting their livelihood back. If you were forced out of your home, you wouldn't exactly embrace those who took it over either.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
Because to acknowledge it would mean the death of a mindset and a way of life passed down from generation to generation-blaming Israel and the U.S. for all their problems, and trying their damndest to destroy the Jewish State

Firstly, nobody blames everything on Israel and the US - we blame the things that are relevant to each of them on them. Secondly, the holocaust in no way changes anything - acknowledging the holocaust does not make Israel's crimes any less horrible.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:10 am

Why do we have to do this every 5 days? It will turn into a 100+ post thread with the same arguments over and over again with neither side willing to give an inch or offer a solution.......
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SlamClick
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Most of them were immigrants who came into Palestine after the British promised them a homeland there

Rather like when the British promised the Arabs a homeland on the Arabian peninsula which they then had to take away from the Turks 1914-1918.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Do you expect a Palestinian who was expelled and made to live in a refugee camp to care about whether Israel exists or not? All he/she would care about would be getting their livelihood back. If you were forced out of your home, you wouldn't exactly embrace those who took it over either.

I rest my case.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Firstly, nobody blames everything on Israel and the US - we blame the things that are relevant to each of them on them.

Bull cookies. They Arab/Muslim world looks and searches for things to blame Israel and the U.S. for. They do it constantly, and without end, Amen. That's the game in the Arab world-drown out everything else by blaming the Israeli's and the Americans.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
lowrider
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The ancestral homeland of the Jews, you forget, had a majority Palestinian Arab population in it at the time, and the fact that Jews dominated it 2,000 years ago does not justify uprooting this population. We did not expel the Jews then, and we did not commit the holocaust - why should we have paid?

Bravo, you avoided that question neatly. Lets try again. Does Israel have the right to exist? If so, where? And let us not forget that "Palestine" is also an artificial construct, hammered out over a table after another war.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Do the Palestinians not have the right to live in peace?


Yes, and if you stop blowing people up that would help a lot.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
What gives Israel the right to exist when it cost an entire population their livelihood, and thousands their lives? I refuse to accept that the holocaust was a basis for the establishment of Israel, especially since we had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Again, there you are with dodging the question. If not the Holocaust, then what, if anything, gives Israel the right to exist? That leaves us ancestral claims, historical precedent, and the fact that no place in Europe was an attractive option at the time.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Of all people, it should have been Europeans and Americans who took Jews in, they should not have given them land that belonged to others.

Have you visited Skokie lately? The only reason "Palestine" belonged to the Palestinians at that time is because the British, Italians, and company said so. If the Turks had won, Palestine would be a distant, historical curiosity. I don't think you want to take the "we were here first" game too far back. Say, not beyond 70 AD.
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cairo
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
Why do we have to do this every 5 days? It will turn into a 100+ post thread with the same arguments over and over again with neither side willing to give an inch or offer a solution.......

There are several solutions that are well known and might work- I think some of the key ingredients are:

  • Palestinians most convincingly admit the right of Israel to exist
  • Israel must withdraw to pre 1967 borders
  • Palestinians must renounce suicide bombing or terrorism of any kind, and be able to enforce this dogma among their people AS ISRAEL will renounce any military actions on civilian populations
  • Israel, the US, the EU and the Arab world should massively fund the Palestinians (education, housing, investment, etc...) until they are self-sufficient
  • a workable agreement on Jerusalem, perhaps enforced the way Berlin was in the post WW2 era

There are many conflicting impulses in the region, outisde interests fighting by proxy, and generations of emotional vendettas to eliminate.

But, neither party is willing to go far enough towards peace and I fully expect this matter to be decided in a final, catestrophic use of WMDs or other deadly war.

Long term peace is only a small possibility at this point.

Cairo
 
Falcon84
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
Palestinians must renounce suicide bombing or terrorism of any kind, and be able to enforce this dogma among their people AS ISRAEL will renounce any military actions on civilian populations

Stop the former, and the latter doesn't happen, because there's no reason for it. On that point, the onus is squarly on the Palestinian/Arab side.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I just have to ask: What did the jews do to the muslims in the first place?!

They denied that Mohammod was the prophet. Mohammod was courting the Jews to believe. There are documented hadiths which state that at one time moslems would pray to Jerusalem everyday. The Jews denied the truth of his prophesy and treated him relatively badly. He responded in kind by raiding Jewish convoys and changing the prayers to his homeland, Mecca.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
Palestinians most convincingly admit the right of Israel to exist

Israel must withdraw to pre 1967 borders

I agree with you. I am cynical though. After all Israel annexed the land after an attack by its neighbors. Lastly, the withdrawel from Gaza has done nothing to reduce the fighting and attacks by both sides. I would love if the Israeli's would give the land back and the attacks against them would cease.

Sadly, this will not happen.

The most discouraging thing is to hear that moslems are being taught that jews are evil and that they must be destroyed. It isn't just this article stating this either. There are hundreds of sources discussing the antisemitic teachings of islamic societies. How can there be any sort of understanding or reconciliation if there is so much misinformation and prejudice?
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 13):
Rather like when the British promised the Arabs a homeland on the Arabian peninsula which they then had to take away from the Turks 1914-1918.

Really now? Please prove what you say, and show me evidence that the majority of Arabs in Palestine emigrated there in 1914-1918. Palestine has had a majority Arab population for over a century, and this is a fact.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
I rest my case.

So what your saying is that if someone took your home, you'd just stand by and watch? Allow you things to be taken, watch your wife being raped, etc?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Bull cookies. They Arab/Muslim world looks and searches for things to blame Israel and the U.S. for. They do it constantly, and without end, Amen. That's the game in the Arab world-drown out everything else by blaming the Israeli's and the Americans.

And you, being both Arab and Muslim, would really know this!

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Bravo, you avoided that question neatly. Lets try again. Does Israel have the right to exist? If so, where? And let us not forget that "Palestine" is also an artificial construct, hammered out over a table after another war.

No, because no state should be established the way Israel was. I will never accept the right of a state to exist which occupies my fellow countrymen, and one which has deprived Palestinians from living proper lives for 60 years. This has nothing to do with it being Jewish - it is all about what Israel has done since its independence.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Yes, and if you stop blowing people up that would help a lot.

So it only counts as blowing people up when its a suicide bomber? But when its an F-16, Abrams or whatever it suddenly becomes fair game? Please, Lowrider, don't even go there, especially considering how much larger the civilian casualties are on the Palestinian side than the Israeli one.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Again, there you are with dodging the question. If not the Holocaust, then what, if anything, gives Israel the right to exist? That leaves us ancestral claims, historical precedent, and the fact that no place in Europe was an attractive option at the time.

That really isn't my problem - they can go look for reasons themselves, but plenty of minority groups don't have their own countries, including the original inhabitants of your own country, the native Americans. Ancestral claims, historical precedent and them not having an attractive option in Europe to go to still does not justify what the Jews did, i.e. take over land that was not theres and expel the population.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Have you visited Skokie lately? The only reason "Palestine" belonged to the Palestinians at that time is because the British, Italians, and company said so. If the Turks had won, Palestine would be a distant, historical curiosity. I don't think you want to take the "we were here first" game too far back. Say, not beyond 70 AD.

I don't give a shit who it officially belonged to, no matter who ruled it or how it was ruled, what matters is that there was an Arab majority, and it had been there for a long, long time. I don't care if the Mongols were ruling Palestine at the time, nothing justifies taking land away from a people simply because you were there 2,000 years ago. I wonder how much you would have enjoyed being one of those 800,000 refugees who were forced to leave their ancestral homes and live in refugee camps in other countries, lowrider.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
windshear
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:08 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
I don't give a shit who it officially belonged to, no matter who ruled it or how it was ruled, what matters is that there was an Arab majority, and it had been there for a long, long time.

Ok then, how do you explain the fact, that "Palestinians" have a hard time tracing their family roots further back than 100 years?

Fact was that Arabs moved in and out of "Palestine", there were no firm settlements of Arabs until about 100 years ago.

Another thing, since you declare Jerusalem to be holy to Islam, third after Mekka and Medina, yet do you know the decade for when it was declared holy?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
And please don't tell me that we victimize ourself, especially when compared to the Jews, who seem to think that the holocaust gives them an excuse to mistreat others.

Jeez man listen to yourself  Yeah sure

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
Furthermore, the fact that I am educated and well off does not change anything.

Oh but it does! You have a nation just across the Gulf from you, where its population is poor, and where Holocaust denial is now a science.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 5):
So what? You have to be hungry and uneducated in order to understand things? Your statement somehow implies most Muslims are uneducated and hungry, which is simply not true.



I think you made yourself go all confused, and I also think that you over analyse my words. What I meant was, that you seem to mix your own views, with the views and personalities of all Muslims. So when you say that all Muslims know of the Holocaust, you might say this because you have heard about it in school, because you grew up in a progressive and wealthy Gulf state, while this is far from the same reality shared by the greater majority of the world's Muslims.

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
mauriceb
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:13 pm

I'm glad she ain't in the government of my country anymore...

she's so provocing...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:19 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.

THE Muslims ? There ARE Muslims who deny the Holocaust and be it just to have something more to oppose Israel. There ARE Muslims who simply do NOT know about it, as it was NOT well known in the Arab World, neither in Africa nor in Asia. But most Muslims simply know it and accept it as part of European history. BUT none accept it as a right of them against the Palestinians.
-
Just as QR332 correctly states, a good lot of her statements are exaggerated, personal and extremely emotional, not least based on Saudi Arabia and not middle-of-the-road countries. Somalia is a most extremely special case. And the statements about Kenya refer to SaudiArabian financed and managed premises. So that here narratives canNOT be taken too seriously, and in fact are wrong in most of the conclusions.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
But they do not go around whinning about it,

while they have now been "whining about" for more than half a century ! And have used it to advance their goals.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
they took action and acheived their goals. Big differnece between the Palastinians and the Israelis.

not much of a difference but an unbelievable likeness. The Palestinians, at least those in the "Diaspora" have "taken action" and are successful, as business owners, teachers, hotel and restaurant managers, in the transport and tourism business, in banking and insurance, and in trading, etc . So that Jews/Israelis and Palestinians in a way are most similar. Even if neither side loves to hear it !
-

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
they can't acknowledge it now?

Most DO acknowledge it now, and in this Hirsi Ali is wrong and QR332 right
-
 
windshear
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
while they have now been "whining about" for more than half a century ! And have used it to advance their goals

That is a bit provocative way of putting it, care to elaborate on that?  scratchchin 

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Ok then, how do you explain the fact, that "Palestinians" have a hard time tracing their family roots further back than 100 years?

Lack of records? Prove it.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Fact was that Arabs moved in and out of "Palestine", there were no firm settlements of Arabs until about 100 years ago.

Prove that there was no proper Arab settlement further back than 100 years? So who was living in the area during the crusades then? You think cities like Jaffa, Haifa, Acre, Asqalan, Nablus, Jenin, Jerusalem, etc. were only properly settled a hundred years ago? The hundreds of villages were only settled a hundred years ago? You are delusional if you do.

And, for the sake of the argument, even if what you say is true, does it justify uprooting them?

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Another thing, since you declare Jerusalem to be holy to Islam, third after Mekka and Medina, yet do you know the decade for when it was declared holy?

I can't give you an exact year but Jerusalem has been considered a holy city since the time of the prophet, and while someone stated above that Muslims started to pray towards Mecca because of the Jews, this had nothing to do with it. Mecca has always been considered Islam's holiest city, and Jerusalem is holy to Muslims because:
a) It is seen as the mother of modern religion, with the monotheistic faiths being centered around it.
b) Mohammed performed the Israa' wal Mi'raj there, a very significant event in Islam.
c) It is home to the Al Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest sites in Islam.

This isn't a debate about how holy Jerusalem is - it is about people like you attempting to justify the horrors of what happened to Palestinians.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Jeez man listen to yourself Yeah sure

What's wrong with what I said? One horrible event is used to justify another, this is fact. It is similar to Jews crying about anti-Semitism whenever anyone says anything you guys don't like.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
Oh but it does! You have a nation just across the Gulf from you, where its population is poor, and where Holocaust denial is now a science.

So what? That does not mean the people there are uneducated.

Quoting Windshear (Reply 20):
I think you made yourself go all confused, and I also think that you over analyse my words. What I meant was, that you seem to mix your own views, with the views and personalities of all Muslims. So when you say that all Muslims know of the Holocaust, you might say this because you have heard about it in school, because you grew up in a progressive and wealthy Gulf state, while this is far from the same reality shared by the greater majority of the world's Muslims

How would you know, Windshear? Like I said, basing your opinion about Muslims around one idiotic Dutch-Somali lady is very dangerous.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
pelican
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 1):
This would be a good time for a official statement by the German government perhaps. I believe that Germany has moved passed this period of there history. Germany has become a society that IMO has joined the league of mankind and works towards the betterment of all people on earth. Their condemnation of the holocaust denial would certainly blunt this insane argument.

Already done.Those idiots who deny the holocaust don't care about German condemnations of holocaust denial. It's even a crime in Germany to deny the holocaust. But that doesn't hinder those people who deny the holocaust.

Just read the article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/798707.html

pelican
 
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 23):
That is a bit provocative way of putting it, care to elaborate on that?

may be, but it is simple. Jews used the holocaust in the 50ies and 60ies to appeal to the "conscience" of WWII time Europeans to get political support, and to obtain most generous financial support from "guilty" nationalities. It was often brought about as if the Palestinians had had the "Wehrmacht" and the "Gestapo" and the "SS". Israel in a way became the "due compensation for the holocaust". In the 60ies, Central Europe was incredibly pro-Israeli, and this amazingly included quite many people who more or less told you "the Israelis are great, but those Jews here are not a real requirement and rather also might go there", in other words millions of pro-Israeli Jews-haters ! People who in restaurants served heaps of moronic idiotic "jokes" about Jews and then a moment later were endulging into orgies of pro-Israeli-nism !
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and the whole matter was successfully "sold" in the USA and in Europe/America dominated UNO in the late 40ies also in that place
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
I don't give a shit who it officially belonged to, no matter who ruled it or how it was ruled, what matters is that there was an Arab majority, and it had been there for a long, long time.

And here we have arrived at the crux of the matter. "I want it and I don't care what anyone else wants, because my wants supersede everyone one elses". You can throw out all the distractors you can find, including attacks on my home, but it doesn't change the facts. You want all the Jews to die so you can have what you want. Now I know through which filter I can view your future statements. Thank you.
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rjpieces
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 24):
One horrible event is used to justify another, this is fact

Comparing the Holocaust--the systematic murder of millions--to Palestinian displacement in 1948 is sick. Truly sick and has no rational place in our society.

That's not to say that some Palestinians didn't suffer...But to compare the two is just morally wrong. I thank G-d that such discourse is not tolerated in America, and that people like you have no place here.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
justifies the State of Israel

Are you saying Israel is unjustified?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The real brainwashed people here are the ones who read an article and automatically look at it as if it were fact. Just because one person says it does not make it true.

Thats true, but would you mind answering his question?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
Firstly, nobody blames everything on Israel and the US - we blame the things that are relevant to each of them on them.

Which is to say in the Arab world, everything. No ceremony is complete in the Arab world without people shooting AKs into the air and burning the American flag, effigys of ZBush, and shouting 'Death to America'.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The Palestinians are in no position to take action,

Yes, other than cowardly shoot rockets into Israel, usually hitting civillian targets.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 16):
Israel must withdraw to pre 1967 borders

Why? Israel was attacked, and gained land in a Defensive war. And your saying give it back?

Cheers,
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AGM100
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 25):
Just read the article:

Thank you Pelican , I assumed the German governemnt had made some statement ... It just has not rcvd much coverage. Great !

Guess I should rethink the purchase of that GTI...


The Silver lining in all this is that Ahmadinejad has just torn the scab off again, and it will probably end up educating more people on the horrors of the holocaust.
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rjpieces
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:16 am

To be fair, not all Muslims are like QR and trying to minimize the significance of the Holocaust:
http://www.jta.org/page_view_breakin....asp?intid=6136&ref=daily_briefing
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
stirling
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
Palestine has had a majority Arab population for over a century, and this is a fact.

And the world began when the Arabs arrived?
Very selective memory there....and convenient to justify a flawed argument.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):
The Silver lining in all this is that Ahmadinejad has just torn the scab off again, and it will probably end up educating more people on the horrors of the holocaust.

If he lasts that long.....appears that Iranians are wising up to his modus operandi, which does nothing but bring instability to region.
I have more empathy for the Iranian animosity towards U.S. Foreign policy than I probably should have, but once you go back; looking beyond the sound and video bites from 1979, and deeper into the effects U.S. intervention had on Iranian society, one can find reason for the events that would shape the next quarter century. Sure, they went about it the wrong way, and the U.S. has more or less never forgiven Iran for it, so what we have today is a pissing match that has been going on for 27 years. Great.
Ahmadinejad's extreme leanings have been invalidated to a very large degree by the recent elections....how it plays out is anyone's guess.

But the real crux of the issue, independent of the Judaism versus Islam, Palestinian versus Zion, East versus West, is that, if we were take these out of the mix of issues in the Middle East, there is an even larger gorilla looming on the horizon....and that is the schism within Islam.

Shia and Sunni.....are engaged in an active genocide of each other, that, thanks to the U.S., is being allowed to go on in Iraq.

Why does Iran support the Shia militias in Southern Lebanon? Sure, on the surface they are there to confront Israeli incursions, but that is only half the pie. Iran is a Shia nation surrounded by Sunni peoples. Anyone remember the Iran-Iraq war?
The Hezbollah support is as much as anything a Shia beach-head in a sea of Sunni influenced governments stretching from Morocco to Malaysia, Sudan to Kazahkstan....and then, right in the middle is Iran.

So go ahead, let's give Palestine back to the Palestinians, (whoever they are?) and then watch the Muslim world (At least the fanatical portions) Shia and Sunni, become unglued in the fight over Jerusalem.
Iraq, and the skirmishes between Israel and Lebanese puppets is just an appetizer....

No matter how one slices the problem, no one wins. As soon as one conflict is resolved, another one, more deadly and consuming takes its place. Arabs and Jews alike are equally to blame, both operating from historical perspectives that are counter to the establishment of any real lasting peace. The problem is made even worse when super-powers, and wanna-bees jump into choose sides, like the religious right influenced U.S. policy, and the Iranian/Syrian influenced groups on the ground in Palestine. Viola'!, we've taken a regional conflict and turned it global! Hooray!

The first step is for the U.S. to stop favoring Israel....let them sink or swim on their own. (Educate them in the simple fact one dead Jew does not justify ten dead Arabs from retalitory strikes....Haven't they learned the term "collateral damage".)
Next step is for the Iranians, Syrians, Saudis, whoever else, to stop the same; stop whoever it is from buying the missles that land in school yards, back yards, and every where else inside Israel. (Funny, if it weren't for TIM relief money the EU sends to the region, the lights would still be out, and people would be teetering on starvation by now.....but by GOD, during all of that which went on over the summer, there was always enough money to buy plenty of RPGs and other various insundiary devices. Ironic? or Typical?)

Let Israel negotiate with the Palenstinians one on one, independent of the interests of the outside world......but I dream, it will never happen, barring a meteorite the size of the moon crashing to earth.

Why can't mankind get it through it's thick skulls, that the earth beneath their feet belongs to no one? We are but only stewards. But hell, thats what makes life interesting, right?

I apologize for ranting, it infuriates me when people over-simpifly things to point that it just makes things worse....inciting more rage and aggression, albeit, here, it is only verbal, remember it all leads somewhere.

You don't own nothing except the skin and bones you walk around in, and you really don't even own that, so why not put down the hate, and smell the roses? (There, my own juvenile over-simplification)
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AGM100
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):
To be fair, not all Muslims are like QR and trying to minimize the significance of the Holocaust:

Wow this is great News ! Outstanding... they should be on headline news !

Quoting Stirling (Reply 32):
The first step is for the U.S. to stop favoring Israel

Good post Stirling ,until you dropped this ... US disengagement would bring nothing but Holocaust II .. I wish you were correct though ! I wish it was that easy. Maybe the first step should be a condemnation of Hezbollah/Hammas /Islamic Jihad /Al Aqsa Martyrs..ect by the Arab league. Maybe Saudi Arabia should send Forces into Palestine and stabilize the government their ... on and on and on. Their are many possibilities , but nothing will change.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
want all the Jews to die so you can have what you want.

you jump to weird conclusions. He simply referred to the fact that many people on earth lived in areas under the rule of outside powers and did NOT have written things about land or house ownership, but were the majority in the area in question. The colonial administrators were the first to introduce the European system of written land ownership declarations, thereby nicely disown the local populations. Your support for the Vorster/Botha rule in South Africa, for colonial rule in East Africa, for the French domination of the Algerie Francaise etc reveals your views rather badly.
 
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
Your support for the Vorster/Botha rule in South Africa, for colonial rule in East Africa, for the French domination of the Algerie Francaise etc reveals your views rather badly.

I don't recall commenting on those, care to cite a source?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 34):
you jump to weird conclusions.

Not really. It is no secret that many muslims long for the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews. Seeing as how he won't disavow this belief, I will assume that he agrees with it. He has repeatedly stated that he wants the land back. He has provided no other alternative as to where the Jews could live, and they won't simply evaporate if you displace them from Israel. Not such a stretch now, is it?
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qr332
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 27):
And here we have arrived at the crux of the matter. "I want it and I don't care what anyone else wants, because my wants supersede everyone one elses". You can throw out all the distractors you can find, including attacks on my home, but it doesn't change the facts. You want all the Jews to die so you can have what you want. Now I know through which filter I can view your future statements. Thank you.

So let me get this straight - me trying to explain how Palestinians suffered now suddenly means I want all Jews dead? Your logic is very goddamn flawed, and to tell you the truth I don't really care how you or any person in America views me.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
Comparing the Holocaust--the systematic murder of millions--to Palestinian displacement in 1948 is sick. Truly sick and has no rational place in our society.

RJ, since your smart enough to post baseless articles which serve your purpose, you must be able to read things properly to a certain degree. Now, if you look at my comment, you will see that what I said was:

One horrible event is used to justify another, this is fact.

I said both events are horrible, unless you find 800,000 displaced people and thousands dead a normal everyday thing? Don't twist my words.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
That's not to say that some Palestinians didn't suffer...But to compare the two is just morally wrong. I thank G-d that such discourse is not tolerated in America, and that people like you have no place here.

What happened to the whole freedom of speech thing? Or do you believe that freedom of speech should only be granted to those who say things that support your views...

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Are you saying Israel is unjustified?

Yes, there is no justification for the creation of a state at the expense of an entire population. Yes, the holocaust was a horrible event, but it had absolutely nothing to do with us Palestinians and we should not be the ones to pay the price for it. Also, even if Jews inhabited the area 2,000 years ago, we did not kick them out then and we were living on the land in 1948, and still continue to do so today, so to form a state that expels two thirds of a population on land that isn't theirs is completely unjustified. This might be a bit difficult for you to understand, and I don't blame you - you live in the world's most powerful country, and the whole concept of living with a nationality different to your real one without having any choice in the matter is not something you are familiar with, neither is living in a refugee camp with no chance of doing anything with your life. Because it is much easier to sympathize with the Israelis, who are more Western and are more similar to you than us, you do so.

Having said this, while I do believe there was no justification for the creation of Israel, I do not believe it should be destroyed today. I believe thats whats done is done, and we should try to find a solution - one that satisfies both sides, which means that we should get a state based on '67 borders and the refugees problem must be addressed.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Thats true, but would you mind answering his question?

Muslims in general do not hate Jews - they dislike the State of Israel. Historically, Muslims have been much friendlier to Jews than Westerners; Jews have always lived in the Middle East, and they were not persecuted like they were in the West. Hell, the crusades took many Jewish lives, and even in the early 20th century, there was more anti-Semitism in countries like France than there was in Germany. When Israel was created, this changed. I completely disagree with what many Arab countries did, i.e. expelling the Jewish population, and think it is horrible - but at the same time this has nothing to do with me as a Palestinian. Palestinians didn't call for this, nor did they take these actions.

As for me personally, I do not hate Jews at all - but I greatly dislike Israel, and everything it has done to my people and country.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Which is to say in the Arab world, everything. No ceremony is complete in the Arab world without people shooting AKs into the air and burning the American flag, effigys of ZBush, and shouting 'Death to America'.

That is exactly the type of thing the American media wants you to believe. Do you think that Arabs start their daily routine thinking "what can we do to attack America today"? Please, get a grip and think about what your implying here.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Yes, other than cowardly shoot rockets into Israel, usually hitting civillian targets.

Again, don't even go there - the statistics speak for themselves. The amount of civilian Palestinian deaths and injuries far outweigh those of Israelis, and Palestinians have been suffering for years now in ways you cannot imagine.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Why? Israel was attacked, and gained land in a Defensive war. And your saying give it back?

I hate it when the argument of "they gained land in a war, fair game" argument is used. Why didn't the West say the same when Hitler invaded Poland? Or does it only apply with Israel.

Secondly, it was hardly a defensive war - this is a heavily debated issue, and to say that reason X caused the war is bullshit. If Israel was truly only interested in defense, why did it colonize the land it occupies and why are there settlements all over the place? Why are they still occupying the land 39 years on?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 31):
To be fair, not all Muslims are like QR and trying to minimize the significance of the Holocaust:

You are exactly the type of person who minimizes the significance of the holocaust - the type who tries to justify everything by using it. When you keep doing this, RJ, all you do is make people take the holocaust less and less seriously because you constantly try to use it to further your own goals. And before throwing statements around like that, back them up. Show me evidence that I am trying to minimize its significance. Are you seriously telling me that Germans killing 6 million Jews somehow justifies taking over Arab land and expelling 800,000 people?

Quoting Stirling (Reply 32):
And the world began when the Arabs arrived?
Very selective memory there....and convenient to justify a flawed argument.

So because the Jews were there 2,000 years ago, we should just pack up and leave our country to them? Please, get in touch with reality - the world doesn't work based on 2,000 year old claims.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
Not really. It is no secret that many muslims long for the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews. Seeing as how he won't disavow this belief, I will assume that he agrees with it. He has repeatedly stated that he wants the land back. He has provided no other alternative as to where the Jews could live, and they won't simply evaporate if you displace them from Israel. Not such a stretch now, is it?

So you now single handedly know what 1.4 billion Muslims think? I'm impressed...

Lowrider, let me get something straight - I don't need to explain myself to anyone, especially not to you, seeing that you twist my words so that I can fit into this stereotypical image of an Arab you have. If you want to make assumptions, go ahead and do it - you are only making a fool of yourself by making such assumptions without having any evidence to justifie it.

Secondly, where have I specifically said that I want Israel destroyed and all and returned to Palestinians? I dare you to find it. Nice to see your one of those people who automatically screams anti-Semitism whenever someone criticizes Israel. Good job, enjoy the rest of the kool aid.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
lowrider
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
So you now single handedly know what 1.4 billion Muslims think? I'm impressed...

Nope, never said I did, but I can read the public statements that some make and understand that some muslims want Israel destroyed. Are you saying that is not the case? You have the opportunity to exclude yourself from that group. So far you have evaded that by simply claiming you have not called for the destruction of Israel, yet you do appear to believe it has the right to exist.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 35):
Nice to see your one of those people who automatically screams anti-Semitism whenever someone criticizes Israel.

To be fair, the Muslim world has a history of it. I could cite a few wars and a recent conference if you like

[Edited 2006-12-20 23:13:07]
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Duff44
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:07 am

I don't understand this whole damn thing, so I'll just sum it up like this.

Put away the guns, bombs, rockets, grenades, and any other weapons you might have, and sit down at a table and talk. Stay there until some sort of agreement is reached.

It can get done when the rhetoric and other horseshit is put aside and people actually talk about getting things done, instead of figuring out how to make you afraid of it or who is to blame for it.

"A journey of thousand miles begins with a single step"
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stirling
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 36):
Please, get in touch with reality - the world doesn't work based on 2,000 year old claims.

Did you actually read any of my post?
Where in it did I endorse the enforcement of "2,000 year old claims"?
Because if you did read it, and not just glean off the parts of your choosing, you'd know I am a vehement critic of this whole 'This is my families land thing'.

I am calling you out on your claims that "100 year old land claims" are valid, but not before. For you to even bring up an arbitrary year in your initial point; that Arabs were there before 1914 shows that you are indeed a party to the lack-of-reality of which you accuse me.

Another thing, you'll notice, that I am equally harsh with both Israel's and Palesine's claim to the area.
But until both people shed the strings that bind them to their beligerent puppetmasters, nothing will change.
Both parties are equally stained with blood-crime guilt.

What I don't understand is why doesn't the Palestinian people borrow a page from the Israeli foreign policy handbook? First, clean up your act, start taking care of your people, then develop NGOs, PACs, especially in the US, to further and bring a fresh perspective to a decidely one-sided case on this side of the Atlantic.

OK, so what if the Israelis have the perception of having the U.S. Government in their pocket....you think that happened over night? Hell no, it took much activity over many years in Washington DC by the Jewish Lobby.

If the rights of Palestinians to Palestine is a valid as they think, then prove it!
I, don't care either way who has it....What I do care about is having the world being sucked into the controversy. And then being indirectly blamed for it all. (I will admit the U.S. unfortunately shares in more responsibility than it should, but again, without the U.S., like a poster so profoundly noted, without the U.S., the whole region goes to hell in a handbasket, and the extermination of Jews might just happen after all....that's why foreign involvement must be agreed to by all interested parties...even the North Koreans...who yes, have interests in the region, as do some of your left-leaning political parties in Italy and Germany.)

Note to Palestine: You can start off by finding a way of telling Americans about the USS Liberty and work forward from there.....it would be a great icebreaker....kind of like the Swift-Boat Veterans were for Kerry.

If the makers of cigarettes, casinos, and brothels can all have a strong voice in Washington DC, there is no reason why the Palestines can't either....

But this "The Israelis are bad because they stole our land 60 years ago!"
Find a new song. Get on with your life Palestine.
There is no reason you can't play the game just as the Israelis have.

I guarantee it with my life.

So far, the extent of the Palestinian plight can be distilled in the average American's mind by armed mobs and blowing shit up. No more random missles into Israel, mean no more Israeli raids on Palestine.

Organize your intellect, not your balls. The most dangerous thing on earth is knowledge!

The Palestinian-Israel dilemma is not unfixable, but it is if it never progresses beyond the tactics of today. The Palestinian diaspora is world-wide....what are they doing besides tsk-tsking the telly when the news comes on? They need to get off their asses and tithe part of their prosperity back to their homeland! Instead of writing a check to the South African arms dealer, how bout building a flippin school! Teach people how to read, and write, and form complex thoughts, teach them other cultures, teach them about a world that exists beyond their own private hell. Build A vocational school, something, anything, because teaching a man to weld, or fix a car, or to be a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician, a doctor, or anything else, means that man will never need a handout for as long as he lives...How many people in Palestine need handouts to survive? I don't know for sure, but ask the EU, they just finished righting a few million Euros worth of cheques.
Right now young children bypass secondary education, and straight into blowing shit up school, Ain't no future in that Sunshine.

If Palestine wants victory, it will never come at the barrel end of a gun. Never.
Every human was given brains. Use them.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 35):
He has repeatedly stated that he wants the land back. He has provided no other alternative as to where the Jews could live, and they won't simply evaporate if you displace them from Israel. Not such a stretch now, is it?

The Israelis could "evaporate" to the USA, take over a slice of land in the Upper Rio Grande Valley and rename Eagle Pass into New-Jerusalem and other places into Tel Aviv Jedida and New Haifa. And there certainly would be volunteers who would go to help the Israelis packing . Nothing about having them dead, not at all !  sarcastic  scratchchin 
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Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Which is to say in the Arab world, everything. No ceremony is complete in the Arab world without people shooting AKs into the air and burning the American flag, effigys of ZBush, and shouting 'Death to America'.

-
People in the Arab World do NOT blame Israel for problems. That is just a weird idea of some people in the West. And usually there is no shooting into the air at ceremonies, and all over the area, the burning of US-flags or effigies of Mr Bush is extremely rare. Even more rare is the shouting around of that "Death to America" slogan .
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Quoting Lowrider (Reply 37):
anti-Semitism whenever someone criticizes Israel.
---
To be fair, the Muslim world has a history of it. I could cite a few wars and a recent conference if you like

-
no, you canNOT cite whatever. Because those wars had nothing to do with racial aspects. And even less with the "Muslim World". And that recent conference was a special case launched by the Tehran regime, which is not representative of the Muslim World.
-
 
baroque
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
First of all, based on the account of one woman with a very strong, clear bias, you can draw the conclusion that most of the Muslim world hasn't even heard of the holocaust! Please! Everyone knows what the holocaust was and most people sympathize wit the Jews.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
b) Muslims do not deny the holocaust. While some might, it is hardly something common in Muslim society, thats like saying "all Christian pastors are gay child molesters". It doesn't work that way.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
Most DO acknowledge it now, and in this Hirsi Ali is wrong and QR332 right

Hirsi Ali is wrong in my experience, Muslims that I know do know the history of the second world war.

The article is patent nonsense and the thread should be removed.

Judging by the misrepresentation that has gone before this post, I guess I can expect to be misrepresented too. A plague on false attributions.
 
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 39):
What I don't understand is why doesn't the Palestinian people borrow a page from the Israeli foreign policy handbook? First, clean up your act, start taking care of your people, then develop NGOs, PACs, especially in the US, to further and bring a fresh perspective to a decidely one-sided case on this side of the Atlantic

PACs in America are one of several ways to solve this problem. The funding potential of the Arab/Muslim world could overwhelm the size of AIPAC and the US Congress could become less dominated by Israeli government interests. If THAT were to happen, things might start to change.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 39):
OK, so what if the Israelis have the perception of having the U.S. Government in their pocket....you think that happened over night? Hell no, it took much activity over many years in Washington DC by the Jewish Lobby.

Obviously the Saudis, the Gulf States and others have citizens and/or governments sympathetic to the Palestinian cause who could afford to help fund a PAC....I've often wondered about this and why it isn't done.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 39):
telling Americans about the USS Liberty

We have to keep quiet about this.

Cairo
 
baroque
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 42):
We have to keep quiet about this.

Come on Cairo, only the acceptable parts of history are, well, er acceptable.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 42):
The funding potential of the Arab/Muslim world could overwhelm the size of AIPAC and the US Congress could become less dominated by Israeli government interests. If THAT were to happen, things might start to change.

That is assuming that the US is pro-Israel BECAUSE of "funding potential", whch is of course utter nonsense. Most Congressmen don't receive pro-Israel PAC money, and of course that is just one small facet of the US-Israel relationship. Is Arab oil money going to make media commentators anti-Israel, military planners anti-Israel, etc etc?

Critics of Israel never have gotten over the fact that money isn't the reason why America is pro-Israel. You can't "buy" a country; money can't convince the elite of a country to be pro or anti any issue.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 42):
Obviously the Saudis, the Gulf States and others have citizens and/or governments sympathetic to the Palestinian cause who could afford to help fund a PAC....I've often wondered about this and why it isn't done.

You think ANY politician wants to be associated with Arab/Muslim/Saudi Arabian PACS? Money from the same money that funds terrorism against Americans? Are you serious?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
That is assuming that the US is pro-Israel BECAUSE of "funding potential", whch is of course utter nonsense. Most Congressmen don't receive pro-Israel PAC money,

the "funding potential" of course IS important, just as the pressurizing of politicians by lobby-groups. As most Arabs until very recently did NOT have much understanding for decent public-relations, the presentation of the Arab cause, for instance in the USA, was clumsy to put it mildly.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
ANY politician wants to be associated with Arab/Muslim/Saudi Arabian PACS?

I do NOT see that it has to be the aim of Arab PR programs to have politicians "associated" with whomever, and least of all Saudi Arabia. The UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and Oman btw. are intelligent enough NOT to have their programs mixed up with the KSA. Shrewd lobbying means to avoid having politicians appear to be "associated" with you. It however means to give information on a regular basis.
-

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
You can't "buy" a country

you not only canNOT you should never try to do so. You however CAN buy the required information flow and the way to provide information and explanation. In Europe, which in the 60ies was extremely pro-Israeli, a minimum of money but a maximum of personal efforts by uncounted people brought about the change and resulted in a more even-handed general opinion in Europe in regard to the Arab World in general and the Palestine-Israel in particular. That so many Europeans have gone onto holidays in Arab countries has helped further.
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jacobin777
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
Hirsi Ali is a stupid bitch who'll say anything to make herself look more liberal and distance herself from a religion she hardly understands and constantly attacks.

 checkmark ...attention-seeking whore..

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
Do you believe any Muslim is stupid enough to think Jews are out there only so they can destroy us?

Thats what most people believe...even though 99.99% of the worlds Muslim population want to live normal lives and provide food, water, clothing, shelter, etc. for their families..but don't let that get in the way of the b.s. spewn here on A.net.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
 rotfl  Priceless... and it doesn't surprise me that was the one to post this bullshit and agree with it.

 checkmark 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 3):
You know what? I think you, Ann Coutler and Hirsi Ali should all meet up and arrange a threesome. God knows you all need to get laid, and you guys are perfect for each other.

 rotfl 

Quoting Windshear (Reply 4):
I think it is much more baseless, that you constantly speak of a religion and Muslims as one mass, when really you are just telling us, what you feel and think.

I know many indigent, imporverished, and desititude Muslims....and they don't think any differently....

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
These people (the muslims), obviously, have been brainwashed.

Yep.."these people", we're completely brainwashed..clueless individuals...go figure.. sarcastic 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):

The real brainwashed people here are the ones who read an article and automatically look at it as if it were fact. Just because one person says it does not make it tr

 checkmark 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 11):
The ancestral homeland of the Jews, you forget, had a majority Palestinian Arab population in it at the time, and the fact that Jews dominated it 2,000 years ago does not justify uprooting this population. We did not expel the Jews then, and we did not commit the holocaust - why should we have paid?

 checkmark 

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 12):
Why do we have to do this every 5 days? It will turn into a 100+ post thread with the same arguments over and over again with neither side willing to give an inch or offer a solution.......

Tell your buddy RJPieces to stop posting inane nonsense then...that might be a good start...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Bull cookies. They Arab/Muslim world looks and searches for things to blame Israel and the U.S. for.

That's a total crop of crap.....the Arab/Muslim world doesn't "look and search" things to blame Israel and the U.S...the Muslim world responds to certain policies..not to mention, 1/2 the Muslim/Arab world has a good relation with the United States...

I ask you Falcon84..how many times has the United States condemned Israel for doing something blatantly wrong? ..

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):

Bravo, you avoided that question neatly. Lets try again. Does Israel have the right to exist? If so, where?

Yes...where it is..but not at the expense of the Palestinians...

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Yes, and if you stop blowing people up that would help a lot.

Maybe if the Iraeli govt. stops committing human rights violations, stops violating United Nations Resolutions and stops building [i]illegalsettlements[/b] then something might happen...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Stop the former, and the latter doesn't happen, because there's no reason for it. On that point, the onus is squarly on the Palestinian/Arab side.

What a crop of crap....Isreal has never stopped building illegal settlements...has never stopped taking water rights....ect. etc..and this is the majour crux of the conflict....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 19):
So what your saying is that if someone took your home, you'd just stand by and watch? Allow you things to be taken, watch your wife being raped, etc?

Yes...I guess according to their strange views, it's ok....

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
But most Muslims simply know it and accept it as part of European history. BUT none accept it as a right of them against the Palestinians.

 checkmark 

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Which is to say in the Arab world, everything. No ceremony is complete in the Arab world without people shooting AKs into the air and burning the American flag, effigys of ZBush, and shouting 'Death to America'.

Just goest to show how much you know about the Arab and Muslim world.. sarcastic 

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 29):
Yes, other than cowardly shoot rockets into Israel, usually hitting civillian targets.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
People in the Arab World do NOT blame Israel for problems. That is just a weird idea of some people in the West. And usually there is no shooting into the air at ceremonies, and all over the area, the burning of US-flags or effigies of Mr Bush is extremely rare. Even more rare is the shouting around of that "Death to America" slogan .
"Up the Irons!"
 
stirling
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
You think ANY politician wants to be associated with Arab/Muslim/Saudi Arabian PACS?

Abramoff. He was pure deep-fried evil. Didn't keep Congressman from lining up to get next to him.

The very point of the issue is that America only knows half of the story.

A recent CNN poll shows almost half of Americans see Syria as an Enemy.
But I'll bet if you asked every person that responded that way, they wouldn't have a clue as to why....

And before anyone says it, STOP.

Saying Syria supports terrorism without acknowledging that America wholeheartedly does the same, well, that's selective hypocrisy.....
I'd like to introduce you to a guy named Posada who was chums with the CIA....and who bombed a Cuban airliner in Barbados on a stop from Venezuela killing over 70 people. The United States refuses to allow this man to be extradited for his crimes, yet, screamed and hollered until the UN placed sweeping sanctions on Libya for doing the same.

So, the fact is, both sides are guilty of being bad boys.
Great thing about Americans is that they are maleable into any position money can afford. Depending on how much one has, determines how America will feel on any given subject. Maybe some day America will know the truth, and quit acting in the world the way it does.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 45):
the "funding potential" of course IS important, just as the pressurizing of politicians by lobby-groups. As most Arabs until very recently did NOT have much understanding for decent public-relations, the presentation of the Arab cause, for instance in the USA, was clumsy to put it mildly.

And that is why Al-Jazeera frustrates so many...because it is a world-class news gathering operation untethered to the U.S./Corporate axis. Most Americans expect Arab news to be an ugly guy under a turban spewing anti-American epitaths filmed on a 8 millimeter film....

The truth will set thy free!
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lowrider
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
. Because those wars had nothing to do with racial aspects.

As a litmus test, would the wars have occured if Israel was a Muslim nation?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 40):
And that recent conference was a special case launched by the Tehran regime, which is not representative of the Muslim World.

No? Then where should I look for an accurate representation? If I look in the Qur'an I read things like 5:51, "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews or the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he who amongst you that turns to them is of them." When the PLO calls upon people to kill Jews and Americans and all who stand with them, should I not take that as being representative? Also, according to what I read, jihad is required whenever Muslim territory is attacked. Tell me, what source is representative?
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cairo
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RE: Hirsi Ali On Why Muslims Deny The Holocaust

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 48):
As a litmus test, would the wars have occured if Israel was a Muslim nation?

It is hard to imagine a scenario whereby Europe, acting under the guise of the UN, would in 1947 create a home for Muslim refugees from war-torn Europe, since there were no Muslim refugees from war-torn Europe.

But, to go along with your hypothetical, I think yes, if the UN created a new country in the middle of ANYWHERE, the US, China or a Middle Eastern country, then the people already living there who never agreed to this would very likely seek to re-claim the land by force.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 48):
When the PLO calls upon people to kill Jews and Americans and all who stand with them, should I not take that as being representative?

Of the most radical parts of the PLO leadership, yes.

Did Bill Clinton speak for you 100% of the time? The US ambassador to the UK in the early part of WW2 was ready to give up on the Brits and cozy up to Hitler - and he got a lot of press for it. Did he speak for everyone in America?

If you are really interested in the truthful representations of Arabs/Muslims, look beyond soundbytes and the US media. If you only want to confirm your cherished opinions, study the situation no further and watch only your evening TV news.

Ted Koppel did an excellent piece on Iran recently for TLC or the Discovery Channel - that was an accurate representation and I hope you watch it if you're interested in an honest sample of average Muslims.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 47):
The truth will set thy free!

It will. It always does in the end. Watch for those who don't want the truth to cloak this dispute in terms of religion, "terrorism," or hatred.

Cairo

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