mirrodie
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Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:22 am

Someone I know has their kids on ADD drugs. Don't know how it came up but I said that when I grew up, there was such thing as spanking your child ...and that I got the belt, the spanking the wooden spoon, you name it.

There was no time out. Yes, I respect my parents and no there was no fear.

(and I'm not talking about child abuse either. That's beating the crap out of a kid b/c you're a coward. Not that Hedda Nussbaum/Jool Steinberg nonsense.)

Somehow she segued into the conversation that her kids were on Ritalin and I responded, "Have you tried spanking them?"

Then we got into it  Smile Great conversation. I theorized that before there was ADD and ritalin, there was spanking and it took care of the job. None of this time out nonsense. No drugs. She actually agreed to an extent.

Did you get the belt? the spoon? or just spanked (fetishists need not post here. It's not that kind of thread.)

If you did, how did you turn out? What is your relationship with your parents now? What's your perspective on the ritalin generation?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:09 am

Oh yes, "the yoof today" threads...  sarcastic 

To answer your questions, I can probably count the times I got slapped on the fingers of one hand, and that was it. I turned out graduating with notes that a load of people envy, and have so far made it through the first two years of med school. My relationship with my parents is very good - I'm very happy to travel home for Christmas - and my perspective on the "ritalin generation" is that it will turn out just another generation.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
oly720man
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:11 am

...also probably none of the crap additives and high sugar/carb content that goes into food these days.

It's bad enough giving my two kids (nearly 4 and just 2) chocolate or candies. The run around like lunatics within about 10 minutes. My wife used to be a teacher and she could lose half the lesson time because the kids arrive at school having had their coke and chocolate on the way there and they couldn't sit still or think for half an hour. Same for the first class after lunch.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
MDorBust
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:15 am

Before there was Ritalin, there was playing outside and doing the chores.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MYT332
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:15 am

When I were young laddie we used to get dipped head first in boiling water and then hung up on mother's washing line to dry, and that's that was a treat for being a good boy!

Signed,
Skidmarks
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kmh1956
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:36 am

I couldn't agree more. Parents can't handle their kids because they've spoiled them rotten and have now lost control so now want to blame it on something, so they invented ADD/ADHD.

I got swatted on the butt a few times growing up. Never did me any harm.
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mirrodie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
"the yoof today" threads...

Nah, more like how the adults deal with the yoof today. You can't spank them so throw them on drugs.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
I can probably count the times I got slapped on the fingers of one hand, and that was it

So it didn't take long to get in line. Good job.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 2):
high sugar/carb content

Diet, yes, another important factor to consider.
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dragogoalie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Thread starter):
I theorized that before there was ADD and ritalin, there was spanking and it took care of the job.

This is just pure ignorance! Have you got any idea of what exactly ADD is? It's called Attention Deficit Disorder, and it is, as the name suggests, a DISORDER.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention-Deficit_Disorder

People with ADD and ADHD have always been thought of as "impolite, slow, stupid and just plain rude"- but they're not. Yet, you're now helping to reinforce that image, that they truly do not deserve.

ADD/ADHD-kids, or, even, adults, can't help if they can't pay attention to something at school, work or in their social life. It's not because they didn't get diciplined, but simply because they can't help it. You really wouldn't understand- nobody but people with ADD/ADHD would, really.

But trust me- getting a spanking cannot cure a neurological disorder. If her kids truly have ADD, they probably have to deal with people who think they're just out-of-control, impolite kids when they're really just misunderstood and frustrated about being so.

ADD has always existed. Nobody knew what was wrong with ADD-people before someone actually put a name (and diagnosis) on the disorder though, so instead, they got beaten, probably bullied and became outcasts because they're "different" and it sure as hell didn't cure the ADD- it probably just made it worse, but who cares! The kid sits still and is behaving, probably because it's terrified to even move a finger in case it'll do something wrong, but hey- it's sitting still...

A lot of kids with ADD simply don't know they're misbehaving. If you beat them, they don't know what they have done wrong, even if you explain it to them, and if they do it again, they STILL don't know what the heck they have done wrong- they WILL perceive you as one bad mofo if you keep beating them up for something that they, apparently, have done wrong, and they can't figure out what exactly they did to make you angry.

I agree, a lot of people cannot dicipline kids today, and some kids do make me want to walk over and give them a slapping, but ADD, ADHD and even Asperger Syndrome (which I and a lot of other members on this forum have).

The only thing that can make ADD/ADHD better is understanding, therapy and explanation. Or you might end up with a suicidal kid that is so depressed that his/her only way out of a world that truly doesn't understand or accept him/her is death.

EDIT: Of course, I also agree that today's youth DO get put on all sorts of meds for nothing. And that IS wrong. But if you do suffer from ADD/ADHD/AS, ritalin can be a great, and for some, necessary, help to get through the day, I think.

[Edited 2006-12-20 18:56:10]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Thread starter):
Someone I know has their kids on ADD drugs. Don't know how it came up but I said that when I grew up, there was such thing as spanking your child ...and that I got the belt, the spanking the wooden spoon, you name it.

You seem to be assuming that every child who is ADD is disruptive. ADD is simply the inability to pay attention. That's why it's called attention deficit disorder. ADD kids can just sit there quietly and daydream.

You're referring to ADHD, that combines hyperactivity, which should be assisted with medication if it's beyond their control.

Simply spanking them for an untreated organic disorder, IS abusive.
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aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 5):
Parents can't handle their kids because they've spoiled them rotten and have now lost control so now want to blame it on something, so they invented ADD/ADHD.

 redflag 

Maybe some children are diagnosed with it too quickly, but if you had ever spent a considerable amount of time with hyperactive children, you wouldn't have posted this sort of comment. Sorry for being this blunt, but that's the way it is.

I did 10 months of civilian service (alternative option for drafted Germans who don't want to serve in the military) in a "school" class which corresponded to elementary school, with six children aged six to eleven. All of them had a learning disorder, five of them were hyperactive, and there is nothing you can possibly do to change that. Two took ritalin, and even then they were everything but calm.

When they were assigned simple, short tasks they were usually able to do them - such as washing or drying the breakfast dishes. But eating quietly? Learning to write a sentence? Listening to a book being read to them? Maybe, if you were very, very lucky that day. The rest of the time, you had to be watching them all the time lest they'd start running away or doing whatever possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely against high dosages of sedatives. One of the girls on ritalin got something different for a short amount of time - after taking the medication, she'd just sit around, staring, doing nothing, not being one bit of herself. That's inhumane. But there was a noticeable difference in their behaviours whenever something about the medication was changed. On the other hand, taking one of the girls to that "snooze room"* we had, I was lucky enough to witness her calming down. She didn't speak, didn't bother me (she'd normally do that to anyone around, all the time), just moved around the room every twenty seconds or so. It was fascinating, even though I had a hard time trying to stay awake.  Silly

* a dimly-lit room with lots of mattresses and a hammock for the kids to relax in, basically there was everything in it to send people to sleep
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Reply 9

 thumbsup  Greatest and most informative post this thread has seen.
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
767Lover
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Thread starter):
there was such thing as spanking your child ...and that I got the belt, the spanking the wooden spoon, you name it.

My parents used the spanking route sparingly, and I deserved it. I turned out well adjusted, with a healthy amount of self confidence.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
there was playing outside and doing the chores.

Bingo. I can't believe how many modern parents cater to their kids' every need. I was doing chores as early as I remember.

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 7):
ADD/ADHD-kids, or, even, adults, can't help if they can't pay attention to something at school, work or in their social life

Neil Boortz has this great test. He tells parents to put their kid in front of their favorite electronic game (Playstation or whatever) and time how long the kid stays engrossed in it. Usually the "ADD" miraculously disappears, resulting in a kid focused on this game for all afternoon.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Don't get me wrong, I am definitely against high dosages of sedatives.

Ritalin isn't a sedative, it's speed. True ADD/ADHD'ers have a paradoxical reaction to it.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 11):
Neil Boortz has this great test. He tells parents to put their kid in front of their favorite electronic game (Playstation or whatever) and time how long the kid stays engrossed in it. Usually the "ADD" miraculously disappears, resulting in a kid focused on this game for all afternoon.

Electronic games have a lot of fast moving, ever-changing characters and subjects. Perfect for a true ADD/ADHD'er. Proves absolutely nothing.
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dragogoalie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 11):
Neil Boortz has this great test. He tells parents to put their kid in front of their favorite electronic game (Playstation or whatever) and time how long the kid stays engrossed in it. Usually the "ADD" miraculously disappears, resulting in a kid focused on this game for all afternoon.

ADD kids can play video games too, for the entire afternoon- in a lot of cases, video games don't really require that much attention either

[Edited 2006-12-20 19:05:44]
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Ritalin isn't a sedative, it's speed. True ADD/ADHD'ers have a paradoxical reaction to it.

Yup, I just don't remember what that other drug she got was so I wrote "sedatives".

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Electronic games have a lot of fast moving, ever-changing characters and subjects. Perfect for a true ADD/ADHD'er. Proves absolutely nothing.

Shhhh! Next you'll be saying a good, solid ass-kicking doesn't solve anything!

[Edited 2006-12-20 19:15:30]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 14):
Shhhh! Next you'll be saying a good, solid ass-kicking doesn't solve aynthing!

In kids without true ADD/ADHD I'm sure it works quite well. ADD/ADHD just isn't a visible handicap to most. Would you send a kid with a broken leg out to do an afternoon of chores, or would you send him to the doctor to have his leg set? There's really no difference.
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767Lover
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 13):
ADD kids can play video games too, for the entire afternoon- in a lot of cases, video games don't really require that much attention either

He says this in response to kids being put on ritalin, not kids who just sit and daydream quietly.

But hey, if parents want to pump their kids full of chemicals instead of trying more focused parenting, that's their right.
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
But hey, if parents want to pump their kids full of chemicals instead of trying more focused parenting, that's their right.

So beating kids is "focused parenting"?  confused 

I never said pumping kids with medicine was the right answer- medicine is often a great HELP, but in no way a solution. I did state in my first post in this thread what I reckoned would be best:

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 7):
The only thing that can make ADD/ADHD better is understanding, therapy and explanation. Or you might end up with a suicidal kid that is so depressed that his/her only way out of a world that truly doesn't understand or accept him/her is death.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
He says this in response to kids being put on ritalin, not kids who just sit and daydream quietly.

Both kids with ADD (who sit and daydream) and ADHD (who are also uncontrollably hyperactive) receive Ritalin/Adderall/Dexedrine, or whatever's the doctor's drug of choice. So your statement makes no sense.
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767Lover
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 17):
So beating kids is "focused parenting"?

Never said that. I was talking more about things like having kids be more responsible around the house, do chores, play outside, have rules and boundaries to live by and yes, the occasional spanking may be needed.
 
aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
In kids without true ADD/ADHD I'm sure it works quite well.

Err... you did notice my feeble attempt at irony, didn't you? I mean, besides the typo I just corrected.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
Would you send a kid with a broken leg out to do an afternoon of chores, or would you send him to the doctor to have his leg set? There's really no difference.

Nah... a broken leg heals and gives (at least) a boy a lot of recognition among his peers, whereas ADHD makes children outsiders, "losers" and "retards".

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
But hey, if parents want to pump their kids full of chemicals instead of trying more focused parenting, that's their right.

 redflag  again. I'll tell you which sort of "focussed parenting" it would take to give a truly hyperactive kid a safe childhood without any medication at all: non-stop surveillance 24/7/365, because the little one might wake up anytime at night - that is, once she manages to actually fall asleep - and find something to occupy his mind. Too bad if that's a candle.

So the parents could kiss their jobs good-bye and we on a.net would have the exact same people as always complaining about "lazy-ass parents" and "freeloaders".
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 5):
Parents can't handle their kids because they've spoiled them rotten and have now lost control so now want to blame it on something, so they invented ADD/ADHD.

The parents these days are no more than kids themselves. It's anything for a quiet life. The main problem is a complete lack of discipline. I don't believe in smacking, I've never smacked my daughters but you can and should discipline them. How else will they learn to differentiate between right and wrong?
I'm not denying SOME kids have problems, but today too many take the easy route and blame it on something else.
A lot of these problems could be resolved if the parents took responsibilty for their children.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 20):
Nah... a broken leg heals and gives (at least) a boy a lot of recognition among his peers, whereas ADHD makes children outsiders, "losers" and "retards".

My point was that there's no difference in whether either condition needs medical attention.
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 am

There is so much misunderstanding about this subject it's ridiculous. I wholeheartedly agree that ADD/ADHD is over-diagnosed and too many people are prescribed medications they don't need. But for some of us, it's a life saver.

My particularly ADD is inattention predominant. I've never been the bouncing off the walls type. I just found my attention/focus changing 100 times a second and feeling like I was being bombarded with too much information to deal with. I found that Straterra (a non-stimulant ADD medication) and a combination of coping strategies has made all the difference for me. For instance while I'm coding a particular segment which doesn't require any interaction with coworkers, I found that donning headphones to be the way I work best. The white noise of the music covers the voices and general craziness of the office and allows me to visualize my objectives and connect the dots if you will.

As far as the bullshit comment about ADD magically disappearing because of a video game; you obviously don't have the first friggin' clue about you're talking about. Those of us with inattention-predominant ADD find that our ability to focus is polarized. It's often black/white, all or nothing. Either something is completely disregarded or we can hyper-focus for hours. It's all about mentally prioritizing and assigning importance to a particular task. If I find something interesting or I understand it's importance, I can completely zone out everything for hours and focus on that sole task. However if I find myself disinterested or I fail to recognize a task importance, it's very easy for me to completely disregard it. My school records reflect this for instance. Classes where I was either interested or I saw how it was relevant to my degree, I averaged a 3.7. However with classes such as Calculus where I didn't give a sh*t and didn't see how I would ever use it; I found it very very difficult to even get the daily assignments done. Thus, I concluded my college career with only a 3.0.

So do yourself a favor, research ADD, hyperfocusing and the mental processes involved before you spout off on something for which you don't have the first damn clue.

*rant over*

[Edited 2006-12-20 19:54:16]
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
andessmf
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 5):
Parents can't handle their kids because they've spoiled them rotten and have now lost control so now want to blame it on something, so they invented ADD/ADHD.

Parents have forgotten that raising kids is HARD CONSTANT WORK. My son especially is one that specifically will completely ignore something till I physically get him to pay attention. You have to start correcting kids from the beginning. My son as well used to have the worst temper around, and would trash a room if he got mad. Slowly and with patience, we have been able to wean them from these tantrums to almost nothing now.

I also remembered something from my childhood that has worked wonders now. It is the talking to your parents about what you want. For some reason, kids sometimes don't know HOW to communicate. We both encourage and remind our kids to communicate their desires to us.

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 7):

This is just pure ignorance!

I don't deny that ADD/ADHD exist, they only issue I have about it is the extent of the problem. I do believe that some of these kids (from personal experience) don't have a psychological problem, but a parental problem.
 
aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
My point was that there's no difference in whether either condition needs medical attention.

OK, that part I agree with.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 21):
I've never smacked my daughters but you can and should discipline them. How else will they learn to differentiate between right and wrong?

 checkmark  While there is never a sharp line between all-good and all-bad things to do, there are some mistakles that need special attention.

I found that for the kids I assisted taking care of, a mental "STOP!" usually worked rather well. As soon as one was getting out of control, he'd be taken aside, sat on some chair or whatever and told to come back in a moment. That doesn't take yelling, shouting or beating, but still provides a break for the kid to calm down. It obviously didn't work on bad days, but those were the ones when I got home and fell asleep immediately.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 21):
I'm not denying SOME kids have problems, but today too many take the easy route and blame it on something else.
A lot of these problems could be resolved if the parents took responsibilty for their children.

Adults also need to factor in that children are not small adults. They don't necessarily know that certain things you might do out of boredom are better left undone, simply because those haven't ever occurred to them as bad ideas. Until a certain age, they can't be expected to know that changing the carpet in a room is a load of work that grown-ups generally don't like to do. they can't be expected to "sit down and behave" if their parents never sit down with them. And lastly, many parents could also do with a lot more good will. These days, a child is mostly seen as a burden - especially if you're a low-income mother left behind by the father of your child. Instead of that, not having a child should be the burden.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:37 am

For anyone wanting information about ADD/ADHD, and how it going undiagnosed creates problems later in life, this is an absorbing article from the New York Times Magazine:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...63&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all
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ctbarnes
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:38 am

Let me leave you in no doubt: ADD is a real condition. I know, I have it.

I was diagnosed only three years ago this after years of being accused of underachieving, not trying, and yes, even suffering corporal punishment.

Not all people suffering from ADD are hyperactive. That was the belief for years and why so many people (like me) went undiagnosed. It is possible to be just inattentive.

We don't know what causes the condition-there is some belief it runs in families, but there is no conclusive proof.

The problem is not so much overdiagnosis, but mis-diagnosis. It takes a trained psychiatrist experienced in issues surrounding ADD to assess, and are more likely to get it right. Teachers and pediatritians are either not competant or do not have the skills necessary. It is also not an easy condition to diagnose because there are so many other things that either mimic or mask the symptoms. Change of diet will not affect it and herbal remidies do not work.

Physiologically, introduction of Dopamine and Norepinephrine which are found in both stimulants and certain antidepressants have been found to help. But the medication is only one part of the treatment. You also have to learn how to work with the condition in order to be most productive. You also have to undo a lot of the collateral damage done because of the condition, low self esteem, depression, having to listen to silly statements that people don't spank their children enough, etc. etc.

In essance, you need to have a good clinician who can make as accurate a diagnosis as possible and be ready to work with the person with this condition to be able to live a successful life as possible.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 25):
Adults also need to factor in that children are not small adults.

I always thought of mine as adults in training.
It seems to have worked as the eldest is 21 next week, the youngest has just turned 18 and they are both well balanced girls
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
767Lover
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 23):
As far as the bullshit comment about ADD magically disappearing because of a video game; you obviously don't have the first friggin' clue about you're talking about. Those of us with inattention-predominant ADD find that our ability to focus is polarized. It's often black/white, all or nothing. Either something is completely disregarded or we can hyper-focus for hours. It's all about mentally prioritizing and assigning importance to a particular task. If I find something interesting or I understand it's importance, I can completely zone out everything for hours and focus on that sole task. However if I find myself disinterested or I fail to recognize a task importance, it's very easy for me to completely disregard it. My school records reflect this for instance. Classes where I was either interested or I saw how it was relevant to my degree, I averaged a 3.7. However with classes such as Calculus where I didn't give a sh*t and didn't see how I would ever use it; I found it very very difficult to even get the daily assignments done. Thus, I concluded my college career with only a 3.0.

So do yourself a favor, research ADD, hyperfocusing and the mental processes involved before you spout off on something for which you don't have the first damn clue.

ok
 
mirrodie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Dragogoalie (Reply 7):
This is just pure ignorance! Have you got any idea of what exactly ADD is? It's called Attention Deficit Disorder, and it is, as the name suggests, a DISORDER.

Relax pal. There's not ignorance, it was really just a good conversation with this mother. Covered what ADD and ADHD is, the meds, the controversy between whether it's over prescibed or underprescribed. Interestingly, the mother wondered what happened before these diagnoses and drugs came about. Perhaps that converstaion can continue here and already there's been some good discussion.

Ignorance is part of the problem however there are too many misunderstood facets to the problem and ensuing controversy.

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 23):
There is so much misunderstanding about this subject it's ridiculous. I wholeheartedly agree that ADD/ADHD is over-diagnosed

True its overdiagnosed. But let's not forget there are a huge segment of individuals who are performing much better whilst on these medications.

Quoting BCAInfoSys (Reply 23):
too many people are prescribed medications they don't need. But for some of us, it's a life saver.

Exactly.


Someone above mentioned it being a parental problem. Now that I have to agree with to a certain degree. Often times I see a dynamic between the child and parent that just isnt right and I wonder how the dx came about. Parhaps these parents are ones that should have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD when they were a child but the Dx and Tx didnt exist? Now that is something real to consider.


But let's also face it. Before new techology and studies allowed a diagnosis of ADD and ADHD to be made, all a parent had was frustration and spanking. That was it. Not abuse, but a load of frustration over not knowing how to handle the situation.

Likewise, there are kids that yes, need to be spanked and maybe that is the only answer. They are not ADD or ADHD. What answers do they have? IS there a real possibility that those kids are mislabeled and given a drug that has a known effect and can then mask the entire situation? What are the other options? Time out, better parenting? And if those don't work, then what?

[Edited 2006-12-20 21:08:58]
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andessmf
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 30):
Often times I see a dynamic between the child and parent that just isnt right and I wonder how the dx came about.

The experience I have with ADD comes from a co-worker. The glimpses I get from his family life are sometimes a little disturbing. Let me give you a little background.

His family is a typical middle-class, religious family. Typical house, pool in the backyard, etc. But every now and then I hear him talk to his wife on the phone and that is just not pleasant. She berates him, yells at him, disrespects him, etc. If she does this to her husband, what treatment are the kids getting then? She has even called him to discipline the ADD child over the phone (talk about responsibility).

I have also seen plenty of parents completely ignoring their children in a social situation. The kid keeps nagging till the parent just explodes and tells the kids to 'shut up!'. What do you think the child will then do to get his parents attention?
 
Falcon84
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:21 am

As a parent of a 7-year old who was diagnosed with ADD (by a docter who was diagnosed with it, and his daughter has it), I think you clowns better read up on ADD a bit before making such pig-headed fools of yourself.

With ADD, my son has trouble concentrating in school. He notices the slightest sounds-be it paper being scrunched, or a pencil dropped, and with ADD children like him, it makes it difficult to concentrate on his work at school. It isn't "made up", as some fool said above. It's an actual disorder.

It has nothing to do with spanking the child, or anything like that. It has to do with the fact that ADD children have shorter attention spans that other children. They can go into fits of anger and some tantrums, as that's just part of ADD, and no amount of spanking cures the behavior.

Some children can get by without medication like Ritalin, but some cannot. Ritalin, when given in small doses by a responsible doctor, helps the child to concentrate more on school work.

Our doctor has prescribed a 10mg dose for our son; given once a day, and only for school, or, if he needs it, special occasions. It does calm him down, and doesn't make him as rambunctious. It isn't for 24-hour a day use, and we deal with his ADD at home.

Maybe you clowns should read up on ADD, the different levels of severity of ADD, and things like ADHD.

You're attempt to lable all parents who have children with such disorders is pretty pathetic, especially in this day and age as we do discover more and more about the human mind and human conditions.

Personally, I'd like to tell you where to stuff it, but I'd rather stay on this fourm.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 30):
True its overdiagnosed.

I have to really question the entire overdiagnosed/overprescribed argument.

If you have a normal non-ADD/ADHD kid, and give them speed, what happens? Well, for all intents and purposes, they get high. (What do you think meth is?)

If you have an ADD/ADHD kid, and give them speed, what happens? Well, they get better.

For the argument for children being overdiagnosed/overprescribed to be true, there would have to be a LOT of elementary, junior high, and high school kids (not to mention adults) going around high all day at the hands of their doctors and parents.

Can anyone provide one shred of evidence that this is occurring?
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cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
I think you clowns better read up on ADD a bit before making such pig-headed fools of yourself.

 scratchchin 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Personally, I'd like to tell you where to stuff it,

So, other people with children have no right to an opionion?
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Falcon84
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 34):
So, other people with children have no right to an opionion?

If an opinion is grounded in pure ignorance?

You answer that for me. I'll stick with my doctor's advice on this one.

Ignorance is such bliss, isn't it?
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aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 34):
So, other people with children have no right to an opionion?

They do, but that "ADD/ADHD is all made up!" nonsense must get pretty offensive if you're branded an irresponsible parent because of it.
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cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):



Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):

Why can't people just accept that their children are mis-behaved?
I guess I come from the "old school" when it comes to kids.
I never had a problem with saying "no" to my two.
Yet on other occassions I have spoilt them rotten.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
Why can't people just accept that their children are mis-behaved?

I'd like an honest answer to this question. If your son or daughter broke a leg, would you say "Aww, suck it up, it isn't that bad! Don't be a cry-baby!", or would you get them medical attention?

Because anything less for a child with ADD/ADHD than for one with a broken bone is simply irresponsible parenting.
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mirrodie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
You're attempt to lable all parents who have children with such disorders is pretty pathetic

Who is doing that? Talk about jumping the gun.  Wow! We are discussing something and you jump out, as if you are a scholar in the subject, and claim we are all labeling parents? No need to make this so personal.


Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 33):
Can anyone provide one shred of evidence that this is occurring?

I don't have that data.

What I really would like to know is:

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 30):
But let's also face it. Before new techology and studies allowed a diagnosis of ADD and ADHD to be made, all a parent had was frustration and spanking. That was it. Not abuse, but a load of frustration over not knowing how to handle the situation

There were no answers a few years ago. Yet ADD and ADHD are not new, just newly defined. In other words, and Falcon, perhaps you can chime in since you have thrown out your situation...its 1985. What would have been your choices or answers back then?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
that "ADD/ADHD is all made up!" nonsense must get pretty offensive if you're branded an irresponsible parent because of it.

Aloges, I think the problem here is that no one here is branding anyone but some are too quick to jump on another.

The fact is this: A multitude of people has correctly prescribed. And a small percentage are probably incorrectly prescribed. And a small percentage most likely have other familial issues that play a role.

Realize this: I got into a fascinating conversation with this mom and SHE, the mother of the child with ADD, conceded that she wasn't sure it was the right or wrong thing to do and was wondering what she would have done before Ritalin was an option. All valid concerns and points of discussion.
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mirrodie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
If your son or daughter broke a leg, would you say "Aww, suck it up, it isn't that bad! Don't be a cry-baby!", or would you get them medical attention?

You would not know it was broken without having sought medical attention.
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cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 40):
You would not know it was broken without having sought medical attention.

The fact that the bone may be sticking through the skin or the limb was deformed might be a slight clue
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AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 39):
And a small percentage are probably incorrectly prescribed.



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 39):
I don't have that data.

You don't have any data on how many kids are going around high at the hands of their doctors, yet you'll continue to claim there are. How quaint. Not even an anecdotal "well these kids of my friend are ..."?
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Falcon84
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
Why can't people just accept that their children are mis-behaved?

Because, THEY'RE NOT ALL MISBEHAVED. Some of them DO put up with things like ADD/ADHD. It is real, and I deal with it every day. DO YOU?

It's amazing that someone like you can't tike the time while on the computer, and GO READ ABOUT IT.

Here:

http://add.about.com/cs/forparents/a/treatment.htm

This is from the U.S. National Pediatric Foundation, or something like that.

Stop living in ignorance, and LEARN, for God's sake, and do not tell those of us who do know better-via everyday experience, and reading up on this disorder.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):

[quote=Cosec59,reply=37]I never had a problem with saying "no" to my two.

So do I, to all three of mine. It isn't a matter of "no" or spanking, and believe me, I've spanked my kids more than a few times. It's about the fact that his ADD interferes with his education.

When we had this diagnosed-early in 1st grade, he was struggling in the classroom: with his behavior, but also with his inability to concentrate on his work, simply because every little thing breaks his concentration. That's a classic sign of ADD.

After he went on the dose of Ritalin, his school work improved, and dramatically. He became less disruptive in class, because he was able to concentrate on school, and not any of the periphial activity around him. When given in a small dose, Ritalin isn't "mind control"; it's simply a way to let my child LEARN in the classroom. And that makes him a better child, and will let him develop more positively, and help him to be a better person.

God, I hate it when people CHOOSE to wallow in ignornance.
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aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
Why can't people just accept that their children are mis-behaved?

WTF? They aren't mis-behaved if they can't do any better without help! Is an autistic child just mis-behaved? Is a child suffering from trisomy 21 just mis-behaved and looks a bit funny? "Mis-behaved" - don't be ridiculous!

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
I guess I come from the "old school" when it comes to kids.

Yeah... quite so. The stubborn old school, I might add. I'm not saying children are never mis-behaved, we all have been. I just want people to realise ADD and ADHD are not "just" excuses for mis-behaviour and poor parenting, but actual, recognised disorders. That's why they carry their names. Is that so hard to accept?

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 37):
I never had a problem with saying "no" to my two.
Yet on other occassions I have spoilt them rotten.

Which has nothing to do with disorders. I definitely am not questioning anyone's parenting (end of disclaimer), but I don't think saying "no" to your children would have had much of an effect had they had ADD or ADHD. I'm certainly not an authority on this, but I do have experience.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 39):
Realize this: I got into a fascinating conversation with this mom and SHE, the mother of the child with ADD, conceded that she wasn't sure it was the right or wrong thing to do and was wondering what she would have done before Ritalin was an option. All valid concerns and points of discussion.

Fine, fine - that is a basis for discussion. But your thread starter sounded exactly like this to me and probably others: "Think your kid needs ritalin? Yeah right, let me handle that with a broomstick and we'll see!"
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cosec59
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
I've spanked my kids more than a few times.

Nothing to be proud of I'm afraid. Why not just sit down and talk to him? Find out what's really worrying him? Ive never raised so much as a finger to mine. And yes I'm proud of that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
It's about the fact that his ADD interferes with his education.

Or his lack of interest.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
God, I hate it when people CHOOSE to wallow in ignornance.

I'm not too keen on parents hiding behind an easy option either.
As a responsible parent, I felt it was my duty to research many things that could affect my children's development. Now, just because my opinions and views diifer from yours, does not mean I "wallow in ignorance".

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
he was struggling in the classroom: with his behavior, but also with his inability to concentrate on his work,

Don't all kids from time to time?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 44):
Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 39):Realize this: I got into a fascinating conversation with this mom and SHE, the mother of the child with ADD, conceded that she wasn't sure it was the right or wrong thing to do and was wondering what she would have done before Ritalin was an option. All valid concerns and points of discussion.

Fine, fine - that is a basis for discussion. But your thread starter sounded exactly like this to me and probably others: "Think your kid needs ritalin? Yeah right, let me handle that with a broomstick and we'll see!"

I wonder how the discussion would have gone if they'd been discussing whether or not the kids needed glasses, and "what did people do in the days before the invention of spectacles", seeing as how Mirrodie is an eye doctor.
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aloges
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 45):
Or his lack of interest.

(...)

Don't all kids from time to time?

Cosec59, please share the basis for your diagnosis. I'd be interested to know how a complete stranger can judge the abilities of a schoolboy several thousand miles away, more aptly so than even the child's own doctor.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 45):
I'm not too keen on parents hiding behind an easy option either. As a responsible parent, I felt it was my duty to research many things that could affect my children's development.

You sound like you think you know everything about your children's development. Rest assured, no father does. My childood isn't long gone yet, and kids do have their ways of hiding parts of their development.
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mirrodie
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 42):
You don't have any data on how many kids are going around high at the hands of their doctors, yet you'll continue to claim there are. How quaint. Not even an anecdotal "well these kids of my friend are ..."?

Oh, come on now...you damn well know that anecdotal evidence is about as effective as the next study. I am throwing out what I see. Finally, I didn't claim that, so don't start manipulating words.

I answered your question yet you've still ignored mine. That is quaint but we won't go there.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 43):
It is real, and I deal with it every day

No one is saying it isn't.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 44):
sounded exactly like this to me

Fine fine, I'll give you that. But that is how we got on the discussion, with those words. But as I said, she really didn't know what she'd have done prior to Ritalin. So again, it begs the question what we would have done prior to this.
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Falcon84
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RE: Before There Was ADD And Ritalin, There Was...

Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 45):

Unbelievable.

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 45):
I'm not too keen on parents hiding behind an easy option either.

EASY? When we went to talk to the doctor, we were determined not to put him on medication. However, our doctor has had ADD all his life; he's studied it; he knows it inside and out; and, most importantly, he's the kind of doctor who doesn't like giving out medication unnecessarily, and really got on his soapbox about doctors who overmedicate anyone.

It was NOT an easy decision. He let us go home, and read up on ADD, and weigh our options, and we came to the decision that it WOULD be the best thing for him. And it has been, of that there is no doubt.
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