There are a great many who suffer in their daily lives 365 days a year, even as the more fortunate of us live in peace and well-being and find great happiness during this season with family and friends.

There is a gentleman that I see sometimes lying on the streets in a certain business district who holds up a sign telling the world of his misfortune. I am amazed that in a city as rich as Los Angeles, there are such people who lie, sometimes prostrate, asking for alms. He does not appear mentally ill, but merely unable to survive.

What does it say about our city that we allow these people to their fate, even though it would be far better to assist them so that they may improve their lives?

Sometimes, fleetingly, I look upon society's celebrations of Christmas with some degree of cyncism; if Christ's message was truly heard, there would be far less sadness in the world today.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:24:19]

Have you ever helped this gentleman out yet?

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 1): Have you ever helped this gentleman out yet?

I did. I tried getting the authorities involved. I called the police, but they said that nothing could be done and that no one should be involved unless he was actually hurting himself or others.

I've thought about writing to the welfare authorities and asking why this is so. It's not right, as I see it!

In doing a bit of research, I've found that these individuals have a Constitutional right to be where they are and to ask for money. I knew that, but I didn't know how difficult it was to intervene, and I think that it's especially odd that people who do are sometimes held to account.

There are numerous charities and others who might be able to render assistance. I think I will look into asking them to look into this matter and see if this person can be helped, or if he is refusing help.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:34:08]

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 1): Have you ever helped this gentleman out yet?

This reminds me of a story that my dad told me. Last year (?) the was the Live 8 concert to raise awareness for the poor in africa. A huge worldwide concert in 8 countries. As the concert finished and my mum and dad aswell as everyone else who was there, were leaving a homeless man was sitting outside, well just down the road. He was there begging,just trying to make a couple quid. Every single person crossed the road to avoid him (including my parents). Now how can these people who went to the concert go and say they support the africans if you cant support your own! (by own i mean same nationality)

Sometimes people are retarded.


Rgds --James--

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 3): Every single person crossed the road to avoid him (including my parents). Now how can these people who went to the concert go and say they support the africans if you cant support your own! (by own i mean same nationality)

As I said above, I think I will call a number of charities, whose offices or contacts are surely close by, and ask why this is.

The answer, however, is probably going to be as follows: The homeless have a right to be where they are, and it is against the law to interfere if they refuse to leave. This is the only reason I can foresee for why it is that this and other persons are allowed to remain in such dire circumstances. They should be offered shelter and other forms of assistance.

But I will call anyway and see what I can do.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):

Do you mean you'll ask to get him put into a homeless shelter or get him out of the way of cluttering the streets (sorry your response wasnt to clear on it)

Rgds --James--

My two cats have a higher standard of living than probably two thirds of the earths population: they have all the [good, nutritous] food they want, clean water, a warm safe place to sleep, shelter from the elements [as well as dogs, cars, and kids with sticks], and two loving "parents".

That said, I always approach "charity" with a certain amount of trepidation. I fully realize and respect the fact that there are many people out there who are poor and lacking in basic necessities. Many of them are there through force of circumstances that were not of their choice: illness, abandonment, laid off, etc. And then there are those who CHOSE that path: lazy, irresponsible, drug/alcohol dependency, and so on.

THE PROBLEM is sometimes distinguishing between the two. And therein lies the rub. I can't tell you how many times I've been approached over the years by those who claim to be poor. Almost always, they ask for money "so that they can buy something to eat". I flat out refuse to give money, period. I have, however, offered to buy each and every one of them something to eat. In roughly 15 years, I've had exactly ONE taker.


So obviously, they aren't THAT bad off.

Some time ago, I made a comment that I still stand behind that said that I don't give cash to ANY of these so-called charities. Too much of that money is skimmed off for so-called "administrative" expenses and not enough of it actually goes towards helping feed, clothe, and shelter those who TRULY need it. Plus, I also believe in the old saying "give a man a fish....versus teaching him HOW to fish...."

Some of you called me "cold-hearted", "cheap", and a cacaphony of other flattering adjectives. If not wanting to support hand-to-mouth, day-to-day charity as opposed to eliminating it altogether, is cold hearted and cheap, then so be it. I guess I'm cold hearted and cheap.

I'd rather volunteer a few hours a week teaching someone how to read and use a computer as opposed to working in a revolving-door soup kitchen serving the same people over and over. Or else throwing money down what is an endless Black Hole.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:49:59]

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 5): Do you mean you'll ask to get him put into a homeless shelter or get him out of the way of cluttering the streets (sorry your response wasnt to clear on it)

I don't think the intention of getting him into a homeless shelter is so that the street is less cluttered. I know the shelters aren't much, but it's atleast a bed and some food; it has to be better than the street.

JBLU

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6): Some time ago, I made a comment that I still stand behind that said that I don't give cash to ANY of these so-called charities. Too much of that money is skimmed off for so-called "administrative" expenses and not enough of it actually goes towards helping feed, clothe, and shelter those who TRULY need it. Plus, I also believe in the old saying "give a man a fish....versus teaching him HOW to fish...."

Yes, I agree with that last comment.

I also think that charities need to have a bit of pressure put on them to ask them if they've offered help to people in need and why it is that they seem unable to help certain others. I think that if we bring attention to this fact, they will feel more confident in efforts to confront the American Civil Liberties Union and others who seem oblivious to anything but the technical right to be where one desires.

I continue to contribute monetarily to charities, but I believe we should also make our voices heard that these charities, or government agencies, should achieve practical results.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 7): I don't think the intention of getting him into a homeless shelter is so that the street is less cluttered. I know the shelters aren't much, but it's atleast a bed and some food; it has to be better than the street.

Indeed, it is often much better for the less fortunate if they have a place -- a safe and decent place -- where they call home.

[Edited 2006-12-21 21:54:53]

It is scary to think, almost unreal, that some people call shelters home. This is the world we live in, and though an unbalanced distribution of goods is natural, it is incredibly sad to see such events occurring. I'll definately be giving some of my holiday money to charity this year.

AerospaceFan- happy 1 year!

JBLU

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 9): It is scary to think, almost unreal, that some people call shelters home. This is the world we live in, and though an unbalanced distribution of goods is natural, it is incredibly sad to see such events occurring. I'll definately be giving some of my holiday money to charity this year.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 9): AerospaceFan- happy 1 year!

Thank you! I appreciate your kind regards.  

Instead of giving money, set pressure to your politicians so that they create a wellfare state in the US. That will help many.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11): Instead of giving money, set pressure to your politicians so that they create a wellfare state in the US. That will help many.

I think I'm going to pester the local charities and government welfare agencies as to whether they are in fact going out and checking on the welfare of some of these less fortunate citizens.

I do notice that various panhandlers move to various places and disappear from time to time, but I've never seen anyone of any official position to help take much interest in them on the street.

Applying a bit of pressure to see the results from charitable giving should be part of the process of donating, in my view. I'm going to ask questions as to whether some of these social welfare workers, for example, actually go out on the street.

To be fair, both charities and welfare agencies are often overwhelmed and this is all the more reason for us who can afford to donate a little something to continue to do so.

Incidentally, Los Angeles, like any other big city, has a skid row, and recently it's been criticized as the so-called "dumping ground" for many neighboring jurisdictions.

[Edited 2006-12-22 00:08:06]

I think it's great to help the less fortunate around the holidays. However, I think it would be BETTER to help them year-round. We all eat year round, require shelter year round sooooooo we should be helping these people out YEAR ROUND! That's just my opinion........

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 13): I think it's great to help the less fortunate around the holidays. However, I think it would be BETTER to help them year-round.

I concur. Would that we could keep the Christmas spirit all year 'round!

I personally don't give money to these people, nor do I fell real sorrow for them, after all, why should I, it's not my problem.
Quite often, it is their own fault for getting there in the first place, whether it be drugs or drink, violence etc. There's a rule in this country that means everyone can receive a certain amount a week (£42 or something like that) and in most cases, they could get a flat or at least some form of shelter. It's a case of many of them being UNWILLING to get up and do something and/or get a job. Ever tried offering one of them a job ? Try it, and you'll find that they reject the offer, trust me, I've seen my grandad try.
Also, if they've been laid off, since most of them are young, ask them why they didn't get another job. There's always the army, no formal qualifications needed, provides a roof over their head, pay etc.

I have no problem with people who give change to them or work for charities trying to help them, this is just my view on it.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6): THE PROBLEM is sometimes distinguishing between the two. And therein lies the rub. I can't tell you how many times I've been approached over the years by those who claim to be poor. Almost always, they ask for money "so that they can buy something to eat". I flat out refuse to give money, period. I have, however, offered to buy each and every one of them something to eat. In roughly 15 years, I've had exactly ONE taker. So obviously, they aren't THAT bad off.

Exactly. Also, it seems more and more common for them in London, to have a animal (almost always a dog) with them, and seem to be wrapped up in clean looking cloths.

wrighbrothers

Airliners.net Member Profile

Username: wrighbrothers
Gender: Male
Age: 13-15

   Well then that shows you've had tons of real world experience.  

Great thread ASF. Really important during not only the holidays but during the whole year. It's important to be thankful for what you have and not to look down upon those who are less fortunate than you. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

Also it's important to remember the Servicemen and Women who are away from their families. Be thankful for their sacrifices so that we at home can have peace.

Dave

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 16): Well then that shows you've had tons of real world experience.

True, I have had not as much life experience as others, but 1- I can't help when I was born and 2- does that mean I'm not able to have an opinion.
Just because am I younger and have a different view to you, is pretty irrelevant. Does this mean that as soon as someone has been on the planet longer, mean that they are right, and their opinion is of higher regard than yours ?
The thoughts I have have actually been built up from people with more life experience than me or you.

wrighbrothers

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 16): Age: 13-15

Wow wrighbrothers i always thought you were around 25!!

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 17):

    

In 2 posts you've hit the nail on the head.

In the reality of life, if a homeless person doesnt want help then to hell with them, but there are some that do, so help them. Dont abandon hope but dont be hopeful that they'll all welcome it with open arms.


Username: davestanKSAN
Gender: Male
Age: 21-25

Wow you've had Lots of real world experience also!

Wrighbrothers could be 15 and you could be 21, thats a difference of 6 years, not really alot. At 21 you could still be living with your parents, and studying in college or university, how much different is that to wrighbrothers situation? it isnt that different at all. The fact is you knocked him for something not similar to yourself, own goal? yes.

Rgds --James--

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 15): There's a rule in this country that means everyone can receive a certain amount a week (£42 or something like that) and in most cases, they could get a flat or at least some form of shelter.

No abode, no benefits.

There are 130,472 homeless children in the UK. 45.3m meals a year are eaten by families without a kitchen. There are 1.5 families in England on the social housing waiting list. Considering families are always top priority, consider those who are alone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6192154.stm

You need to grow up a bit and realise not everyone is as privilaged as you. People younger than you have no home. People younger than you try drugs - for a variety of reasons - and end up homeless. Who are you to take the silver spoon out of you mouth and condemn them when you know nothing about their situations?

John Prescott spent £645 of our money changing a sign from 'Office of the Deputy Prime Minister' to 'Deputy Prime Minister's Office'. He then spent over £726 on printing new business cards for the 'new' department.

Despite losing nearly all of his departments, he keeps his £134,000 a year salary, his chauffered car, his grace-and-favour flat and official residence.

He spends over £2 million of our money a year doing fuck all. Imagine how much just 10% of that money would help people who are homeless this Christmas.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 17): True, I have had not as much life experience as others, but 1- I can't help when I was born and 2- does that mean I'm not able to have an opinion. Just because am I younger and have a different view to you, is pretty irrelevant. Does this mean that as soon as someone has been on the planet longer, mean that they are right, and their opinion is of higher regard than yours ? The thoughts I have have actually been built up from people with more life experience than me or you.

You are able to have an opinion but when you say BS like this:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 15): I personally don't give money to these people, nor do I fell real sorrow for them, after all, why should I, it's not my problem. Quite often, it is their own fault for getting there in the first place, whether it be drugs or drink, violence etc.

you lose credibility. My point was with you being 13-15 my guess is YOU personally haven't had to work for the things you have. Maybe you have, I don't know. But I doubt it after I read the things you've written on this thread.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 18): Wow you've had Lots of real world experience also! Wrighbrothers could be 15 and you could be 21, thats a difference of 6 years, not really alot. At 21 you could still be living with your parents, and studying in college or university, how much different is that to wrighbrothers situation? it isnt that different at all. The fact is you knocked him for something not similar to yourself, own goal? yes.

Because trust me there's a world of differnce between 15 and 21. You will hopefully realize that when you get there.

You both are young, and from your attitudes I'd assume are fairly well off. Don't take that for granted. Not for a singe second. Because there are billions living around the world that are less fortunate than yourselves.

Dave

[Edited 2006-12-22 02:09:43]

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 18): In the reality of life, if a homeless person doesnt want help then to hell with them, but there are some that do, so help them.

What help? If you have no fixed abode, you have no benefits. No bank will give you an account without a fixed address, so no one will give you (legitimate) employment. You have no access to regular showers, so quickly you can't even enter places of work, let alone enquire about jobs. Combine that with a drug addiction - which is essentially a medical condition at this point, albeit a socially unacceptable one - and the 'opportunities' the upper middle class Telegraph readers harp on about are suddenly not there.

That's if you're lucky enough to be an adult in that situation. If you're a child in that situation, imagine all of that, and add trying to go to school and do well without a proper house or access to a uniform or equipment. Imagine going to school and being the only one who doesn't have a shower or a kitchen, let alone a computer or the latest trainers. Imaging having at best one half-decent meal at home a day...warmed up on a raidiator.

Consider donating to Shelter this Christmas.

http://www.shelter.org.uk/

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 12): I think I'm going to pester the local charities and government welfare agencies as to whether they are in fact going out and checking on the welfare of some of these less fortunate citizens.

If the person in question isn't a minor, pregnant, or over 65, I'd be surprised if there are any governmental agencies who'd be able to help. Despite the view held by some that you can simply choose to become dependent upon welfare for life, the mechanisms just aren't in place in the U.S. to carry that burden.

A couple of months ago I read in the paper that the Oregon Health Plan, our state's version of Medicaid, has been closed to new applicants for the past two years. You can't even get on the waiting list. They'll take you if you're a minor or pregnant, but that's it. Just being in a normally eligible income bracket doesn't cut it any longer. The money's just not there.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter): What does it say about our city that we allow these people to their fate, even though it would be far better to assist them so that they may improve their lives?

Many of them don't want help. They rather live on the streets and have no responsibilities than have to adhere to a schedule and expectations. Not saying all are like that, but many are.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11): Instead of giving money, set pressure to your politicians so that they create a wellfare state in the US. That will help many.

Not necessarily. Norway is ranked as the top country to live in five years in a row. Still plenty of homeless people there. Reason, see my reply to ASF.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 16): Airliners.net Member Profile Username: wrighbrothers Gender: Male Age: 13-15

Well, I was gonna say the exact same thing, but he seems to have it covered, even at his young age.

Oh, just FYI:

Username: KaiGywer
Gender: Male
Age: 21-25

Right.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 19): You need to grow up a bit and realise not everyone is as privileged as you.

I already know this, I know that not everyone is a privileged as me.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 19): People younger than you have no home. People younger than you try drugs - for a variety of reasons - and end up homeless.

Yes, I know this too. What I mean is, I don't sympathies with those who get there of their own accord, nobody forced them into drugs or drink, they did it themselves so they should get themselves out, people need to take responsibility of themselves. Most turn arounds for people, is not by receiving 20p change in their hat, but by standing up, taking responsibility of themselves and working hard, that's how you get yourself a better quality of life.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 19): Who are you to take the silver spoon out of you mouth and condemn them when you know nothing about their situations?

Well, if you go up and ask them why they're lying there, they you know a bit about their situation. The fact is, most of the people on the streets where I live could get out if they wanted to. It may take a hell lot of work, but if that's what it takes....

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 20): My point was with you being 13-15 my guess is YOU personally haven't had to work for the things you have. Maybe you have, I don't know. But I doubt it after I read the things you've written on this thread.

I have had to work for somethings, and sometimes I've had to work damn hard, I've done things I don't enjoy, do work in the freezing cold and late at night to earn some money to buy a CD or PS2 game I want (no, I'm not lying).
Now while that is nothing like feeding a family or keeping your bills paid, I do know a bit about working for things, which is why I don't believe in just giving hand outs. My family got to the comfortable life we live because of hard work.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 20): but when you say BS like this:

It's BS in your opinion, it doesn't mean it's wrong. The same as just because I don't believe in god, and someone who does says it's BS, doesn't mean they are right.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 19): No abode, no benefits.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/HomeAndComm...s/en?CONTENT_ID=4001401&chk=bqy4iZ
Says there "If you are homeless or likely to become homeless through no fault of your own, the local council may have to offer you somewhere else to stay or to live. This will depend on your circumstances."

wrighbrothers

ASF, Unfortunately I think this further demonstrates your Frazier Crane attitude. Call other people to do the job you see needs to be done instead of risking something and getting involved personally.

I have worked with the homeless in both formal and informal situations. Hell, I have even been homeless, though thankfully for a VERY short time. A lot of the time, while they appreciate good food and something to keep them comfortable, they just want someone to talk to them and if nothing else pretend to care about what they have to say for a bit. If a charity was going to be the solution, the homeless problemwould have been eradicated years ago. The problem is much deeper then that and it takes personal involvement, not just calling the local charity to go pick them up and feed them for a night.

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 3): Now how can these people who went to the concert go and say they support the africans if you cant support your own! (by own i mean same nationality)

Giving money to homeless people generally does not accomplish much of anything. Sadly, due to addictions in many cases, the money just goes to booze or drugs.

Donating money to local homeless/poverty charities is a much better route.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6): Some time ago, I made a comment that I still stand behind that said that I don't give cash to ANY of these so-called charities. Too much of that money is skimmed off for so-called "administrative" expenses and not enough of it actually goes towards helping feed, clothe, and shelter those who TRULY need it. Plus, I also believe in the old saying "give a man a fish....versus teaching him HOW to fish...."

And how much do you consider to be too much?

http://www.foodbankofsocal.org

There's a charity that spends less than 1% on administrative overhead.

AAndrew