MD-90
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The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:59 pm

http://drmss.com/wordpress/?cat=1

A few points to ponder:

- David Walker, Comptroller of the US, said that the GAO (General Accounting Office) found so many "material deficiencies in the government's accounting systems" that the GAO was 'unable to express an opinion' on the financial statements."

- Combined federal deficits total more than 400% of GDP. Our nation's government owes 4 times the amount of money that the entire economy generates in one year (2006).

- $8.507 trillion: the reported (official) US government debt level.
~ $53 trillion: the US government's total reported liabilities/debts.
~ $20 trillion: total debt only six years ago in 2000 (200% GDP at the time).
~ $4.5 trillion: debt added in just the last 12 months.

For comparison's sake, the UK is running at 103% GDP debt, which is a little under $3 trillion US dollars. 103% of GDP is a lot better than our 403% of GDP, however.

What will this mean?

1. Economic growth cannot absolve this debt because the baby boomers will begin retiring in 2008.

2. Standards of living will be lower. Entitlements decrease and taxes will increase, which lowers the standard of living. Maybe Wal-Mart can save us.

3. Historically, every government facing this reality has opted to inflate the currency, which is a 'hidden' tax on everyone.



The US federal government is not bankrupt (which means that not everyone can be paid), but it is insolvent. There is not enough money coming in to pay future obligations. It is troubling, and even though we Americans tend to sincerely believe in American exceptionalism, the dollar is not immune to foolish political decisions.
 
kaddyuk
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
There is not enough money coming in to pay future obligations

This completely depends on what length of term these loans were taken out against... correct?
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
Queso
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:34 pm

So what? Everything is ticking along nicely, people are employed and making money, infrastructure continues to be improved and the economy is growing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:39 pm

Maybe they should try spending a little less on defense :-

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...litarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
kaddyuk
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 3):
Maybe they should try spending a little less on defense :-

Dont you mean attack...?
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):

I think that is a little narrow minded. If the government is spending money on something that won't give them a return on their investment, then yes we do have a big problem. But if we are spending money on things that will help the economy (such as infrastructure) that will give give us a return on our money, then the future doesn't look so bleak.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
It is troubling, and even though we Americans tend to sincerely believe in American exceptionalism, the dollar is not immune to foolish political decisions.

Of which political decisions do you refer?

If you are referring to the 40 year old "War on Poverty" than I agree with you.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 3):
Maybe they should try spending a little less on defense

Defense is the ONE think in the budget that is CONSTITUTIONALLY mandated. And so long as the world looks to the US, in times of trouble, then we will end up spending a lot of money on defense.

BTW the Defense budget as a percentage of GDP is 4%. Lower than it has ever been. During the Cold war in the 50s and 60s it was 9%. Ronald Reagan brought it up to 6% after the Vietnam era gutted it. Clinton lowered it to close to 3%. Bush has raised it back to 4%.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
So what? Everything is ticking along nicely, people are employed and making money, infrastructure continues to be improved and the economy is growing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.

Exactly. But don't forget to pay the electricity bill, if someone pulls the plug it's gonna be freezin' cold up there on that rollercoaster.
powered by Eierlikör
 
Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:38 pm

Didn't we have this discussion last month? It's idiotic.

And where does it say the G is insolvent, except in the original poster's mind?

Not in the article.

You're all fools....what do you think Guttenberg invented the printing press for?

Nobody's going to turn off anything. We've always lived beyond our means.

Sammy Davis Jr. said it best: "You only come this way once, you might as well do it in a Cadillac."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Klaus
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
But don't forget to pay the electricity bill, if someone pulls the plug it's gonna be freezin' cold up there on that rollercoaster.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:42 pm

And so long as the world looks to the US, in times of trouble, then we will end up spending a lot of money on defense.

Not sure what's more frightening - the extent to which you believe this is actually still the case or the extent to which the defense establishment has been hijacked by those with interests very different from what you yourself believe.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
Not sure what's more frightening - the extent to which you believe this is actually still the case or the extent to which the defense establishment has been hijacked by those with interests very different from what you yourself believe.

Ok sure.

The next time there is a tsunami and UA makes the humanitarian aide drops you let me know.

When there is an earthquake in the third world and people need tents and supplies it comes out of the entitlements part of the budget or what?

Lets disengage from the world and go back to the pre-World War II isolationism, because Aaron747 and Leezyjet think the US spends too much on defense. We'll let the rest of the world take care of North Korea, and Iran, and Darfur, just like the World took care of Rwanda, when the US didn't. Just like the World got involved in the famine in Somalia when the US didn't. Look how France jumped up to provide troops in Lebanon. Yeah, they want to be a world leader, their first pledge was 200 troops, way to go. If Italy hadn't embarrassed them into providing more they would have gotten away with it too.

Who's being naive?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:05 am

You've succeeded admirably in changing the context entirely. Reread, check your comprehension, then reply again.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
pelican
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 11):
The next time there is a tsunami and UA makes the humanitarian aide drops you let me know.

When there is an earthquake in the third world and people need tents and supplies it comes out of the entitlements part of the budget or what?

Lets disengage from the world and go back to the pre-World War II isolationism, because Aaron747 and Leezyjet think the US spends too much on defense. We'll let the rest of the world take care of North Korea, and Iran, and Darfur, just like the World took care of Rwanda, when the US didn't. Just like the World got involved in the famine in Somalia when the US didn't. Look how France jumped up to provide troops in Lebanon. Yeah, they want to be a world leader, their first pledge was 200 troops, way to go. If Italy hadn't embarrassed them into providing more they would have gotten away with it too.

Who's being naive?

Maybe you? Just to avoid misconceptions - I'm all for US aid and I appreciate it. Your post sounds that you believe US does everything and the rest of the world doesn't care. Do you really think the US provides more aid (as a percentage of GDP) to third world than the majority of the OECD nations? And btw you're mixing aid with military spending.
Concerning the Middle East - do you really want to open that can of worms? A little less US engagement there during the last 5 years wouldn't have hurt - would it?
Who will be hurt most by new isolationism? Your interests or the rest of the world?
But in the end it's you who has to decide how your money is spend.
It's unfortunate for the rest of the world that a weak or even collapsing Dollar will affect the everyone.

pelican

P.S, I don't think the US military spending is a big problem for the Dollar.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
Maybe you? Just to avoid misconceptions - I'm all for US aid and I appreciate it. Your post sounds that you believe US does everything and the rest of the world doesn't care

No Im saying that Europe, with a 1000000000+ population doesnt do NERE as much for the world as the US does.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
US provides more aid (as a percentage of GDP) to third world than the majority of the OECD nations

Didnt say that, but the US DOES provide more aid by the means of people on the ground. Money doesnt help too much when it cant get into the country.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
And btw you're mixing aid with military spending.

Yeah, thats because the military spends a good bit of military budget doing humanitarian things, look at Somalia, look at Liberia.

Fact is, the military has been extremely strained for 16 years, and its taking its tolls.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
ybe you? Just to avoid misconceptions - I'm all for US aid and I appreciate it. Your post sounds that you believe US does everything and the rest of the world doesn't care. Do you really think the US provides more aid (as a percentage of GDP) to third world than the majority of the OECD nations? And btw you're mixing aid with military spending.
Concerning the Middle East - do you really want to open that can of worms? A little less US engagement there during the last 5 years wouldn't have hurt - would it?
Who will be hurt most by new isolationism? Your interests or the rest of the world?
But in the end it's you who has to decide how your money is spend.
It's unfortunate for the rest of the world that a weak or even collapsing Dollar will affect the everyone.

pelican

P.S, I don't think the US military spending is a big problem for the Dollar.

This entire thread offends me mightily.

I mean, don't get me wrong. The G spends too much money that it doesn't have, there's a trade imbalance, the value of the dollar is declining (as it does, periodically, although nobody wants to address the notion that the Euro is overvalued) and there's a very expensive war on that was a huge mistake plus we spend too much money (that we have to borrow) on the military.

This we all know, but it is not news....repeat after me, nothing new here. Nothing.

But what this thread threatens to become, like every one that raises these same old tired canards is a cumfest of moral superiority and improvident and sophomoric political commentary from who knows where.

It'll soon degenerate into a war between the rednecks and the commielibs on one level while our European counterparts snicker in their lattes as we beat each other over our moronic heads.

We've said all this before. It's moronic and redundant. Don't you people get tired of the same old shit, for Christ's sake?

Do any of you care enough about this issue to write your congressman? Well? Oh, I forgot...most of you do not have Congressmen because you're not local folks.

So why in the hell are you so interested about this subject?

Because you're getting your rocks off. Again.

Grow up and get a life, people. Find something useful to say. Help an old lady across the street. Adopt a stray cat. Put some money in the Sally's kettle. Buy coffee for a guy just out of prison and down on his luck. Go to church and thank G-d you've got a home and enough to eat.

Find something obnoxious to bitch about in in your own neighborhood and your own country, for heaven's sake, instead of the incessant and offensive tirade that this thread will soon become unless I'm greatly mistaken.

You've got plenty of messes at home to talk about, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Stick to your damned knitting.

And Merry Christmas to you, too.


 grumpy   grumpy   grumpy   grumpy   grumpy 
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
MD-90
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):

Stick to your damned knitting.

Personally, I'm a student of the Austrian school of economics. I don't knit but I can sew on a button if I have to.
 
Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 16):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):

Stick to your damned knitting.

Personally, I'm a student of the Austrian school of economics. I don't knit but I can sew on a button if I have to.

Verrrrrrrry intereschtink...and not schtoopid at all.

The admonition to "stick to one's knitting", of course, simply means in a nice way, "take care of your own shit before you start busting other people's chops about theirs"

That was directed at the usual suspects, which is one reason that I change my flag like other folks change their socks....it's connected with whom I'm trying to annoy at the time LOL.

Doesn't it seem silly to you that folks in other parts of the world spend so much time obsessing about events stateside, and so little time in listening to what we have to say?

I'm reminded of an introductory literature survey class at BU I happened to attend one day...the class had several hundred freshmen in an auditorium...the prof was talking about the significnace of a piece of modern poetry and a guy gets up in the eighth row or so and says "You're completely wrong! That's not right at all!" The prof says "And who might you be?" The guy says "I wrote that!" Whereupon the prof says "You're the last person we want to hear from!" and resumes his lecture.

That describes the usual suspects to a T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
Whereupon the prof says "You're the last person we want to hear from!"

That last person he wanted to hear from, at least. I'll bet the students wanted to hear from the actual author.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 17):
The admonition to "stick to one's knitting", of course, simply means in a nice way, "take care of your own shit before you start busting other people's chops about theirs"

I know. The whole "the US should/shouldn't police the world" is definately overdiscussed on this forum.
 
bushpilot
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
So what? Everything is ticking along nicely, people are employed and making money, infrastructure continues to be improved and the economy is growing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.

I think the folks were saying the same thing back in the 1928

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 11):
We'll let the rest of the world take care of North Korea, and Iran, and Darfur, just like the World took care of Rwanda, when the US didn't.

Yeah because we are really doing a lot about NK, Iran and Darfur. NK detonated a nuclear bomb. Iran has refused to stop trying to build one, and AFAIK Darfur is still in the midst of chaos. Not to mention Iraq.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
I don't think the US military spending is a big problem for the Dollar.

I would agree. But with only this part of your post really.

UALPHLCS does make some good points that military spending is mandatory. He also makes nice points about entitlement spending. It would have been much wiser to set up social security like how the Alaska Permanent fund is. But also congress has dipped thier hands into that pot so many times it is a joke.

What the major problem has been is that for the last 6 years the GOP has gone on a spending spree of epic proportions and the President has provided zero, nill, zip, notta, nothing in terms of oversight on this. Our trade deficit with the world especially China is worrysome. The outsourcing of jobs is not healthy. Why the hell am I getting a call from India to sell me a credit card?
Our reliance on foreign oil is really bad.
I would agree that the economy is clipping along at a nice pace right now. But what concerns me is the future. Government spending needs to get reigned in PDQ.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
Our reliance on foreign oil is really bad.

What saves your "economic ass" right now is other countries' reliance on that same oil and particularly the fact that it is mandatory to pay for it in US dollars.

People often boast about how solid the U.S. economy is and how much the U.S. is 'helping' other nations by buying their goods and services, but they often forget (or worse, they aren't aware of it at all) that these nations simply have to do business with the U.S. it they want to obtain the obligatory currency with which to buy their own oil. Since the U.S. dollar is no longer backed by an equivalent amount of gold (in essence, it is backed by oil now), this means that the U.S. can simply print all the money it wants and have huge trade deficits as long as two conditions are met: 1) global demand for oil continues to increase, and 2) the U.S. dollar remains the obligatory currency in the global oil market.

From a pure U.S. perspective, there really isn't much to worry about when it comes to the different deficits being mentioned. The demand for oil continues to be increasing and as long as the conditions mentioned above are met, the U.S. economy will continue to benefit from whatever emerging economy with an increasing appetite for oil, as long as they pay for that oil in hard U.S. dollars.

From a foreign perspective, it is obvious that many nations would like to get rid of the mandatory U.S. dollar usage in their oil-trading and apply the direct benefits of such a change to their own economies. Different oil-exporting nations have already converted some of their U.S. dollars reserves to Euros and the latest, not unimportant development is that Iran now sells its oil also in Euros and aims to eventually drop the U.S. dollar alltogether.

In my personal opinion, the threat to the U.S. economy is not so much its' reliance on foreign oil but much more its' reliance on the dollar as the sole oil trading currency globally. More and more Middle Eastern governments openly daring to discuss an eventual switch to another (non-U.S. dollar) currency coupled with an ever increasing instable Middle East where longstanding 'petrodollar' allies such as the Saudi royal family are becoming increasingly unpopular, are a much higher threat to the U.S. economy (and U.S. standards of living) than its' dependence on oil.

It could be argued that the current state of affairs in the world (Iraq, Iran) can be directly linked to a U.S. Government trying to maintain the hegemony of the U.S. dollar globally, the U.S. dollar in oil-trading specifically, and the U.S. economy in general. But that's an entire different discussion!  Smile
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
bushpilot
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):

Very interesting and informative, thanks.
 
pelican
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
This entire thread offends me mightily.

So why do you quote me? I haven't started it... Have you even read my post before you quoted it? Probably not...

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):

UALPHLCS does make some good points that military spending is mandatory.

Problem is that he mixes military spending with aid for third world countries. Which is most of the time a different thing. And I believe the share of such help to third world nations is only a tiny fraction of the US-military budget.
And - as I said before - it (the US military budget) is your (US) business. I just can't stand this uninformed attitude which is ignorant of the rest of the world - which argues "we have to spend so much because the rest of the world does nothing". Why do we Germans send troops to Afghanistan of the coast of Lebanon and the Horn of Africa, Congo (until today), the Balkans.
Why do we provide aid to Iraq?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):

You've got plenty of messes at home to talk about, unless I'm very much mistaken.

See above.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 14):
No Im saying that Europe, with a 1000000000+ population doesn't do NERE as much for the world as the US does.

Yeah and this is my problem - because it's BS! Since when do we (Europeans) have a 1000.000.000+ population? Get some information before you post! The EU has ~463.000.000. The whole continent has about 700.000.000 -depending on which countries you include. And many of those countries (in the East) aren't wealthy enough to make major contributions to aid other nations.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 14):
Didnt say that, but the US DOES provide more aid by the means of people on the ground. Money doesnt help too much when it cant get into the country.

Can you elaborate a little more on this?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
And Merry Christmas to you, too.

Thanks, Merry Christmas to you, too!

pelican
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 21):
Very interesting and informative, thanks.

I figured that perhaps you'd like to read the following article: http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html Although the mentioned Iranian Oil Bourse is still not active, the article does give a good understanding of the importance of the petrodollar.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Klaus
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
In my personal opinion, the threat to the U.S. economy is not so much its' reliance on foreign oil but much more its' reliance on the dollar as the sole oil trading currency globally.

In this context it is difficult to ignore the fact that one of Saddam Hussein's "biggest crimes" was his open defiance towards the petro-dollar when he ostentatiously switched Iraq to oil billing in €uro. (Kim Jong Il may be a much more evil dictator, but he neither had any oil nor did he ever try to question the US$ monopoly. Of course he's still unscathed!)

It doesn't need mentioning that the US invasion saw a timely end to that. Iraq is now back on board with obediently billing in US$ again...

Coincidence? Yeah, sure!  crazy 
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 22):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
This entire thread offends me mightily.

So why do you quote me? I haven't started it... Have you even read my post before you quoted it? Probably not...

Yes...I read your post quite carefully.

It was a mere starting point for my rant. Did you read my rant? Probably not.

Did anyone read it? Probably not. Example of what I was talking about.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
What saves your "economic ass" right now is other countries' reliance on that same oil and particularly the fact that it is mandatory to pay for it in US dollars.

People often boast about how solid the U.S. economy is and how much the U.S. is 'helping' other nations by buying their goods and services, but they often forget (or worse, they aren't aware of it at all) that these nations simply have to do business with the U.S. it they want to obtain the obligatory currency with which to buy their own oil. Since the U.S. dollar is no longer backed by an equivalent amount of gold (in essence, it is backed by oil now), this means that the U.S. can simply print all the money it wants and have huge trade deficits as long as two conditions are met: 1) global demand for oil continues to increase, and 2) the U.S. dollar remains the obligatory currency in the global oil market.

From a pure U.S. perspective, there really isn't much to worry about when it comes to the different deficits being mentioned. The demand for oil continues to be increasing and as long as the conditions mentioned above are met, the U.S. economy will continue to benefit from whatever emerging economy with an increasing appetite for oil, as long as they pay for that oil in hard U.S. dollars.

From a foreign perspective, it is obvious that many nations would like to get rid of the mandatory U.S. dollar usage in their oil-trading and apply the direct benefits of such a change to their own economies. Different oil-exporting nations have already converted some of their U.S. dollars reserves to Euros and the latest, not unimportant development is that Iran now sells its oil also in Euros and aims to eventually drop the U.S. dollar alltogether.

In my personal opinion, the threat to the U.S. economy is not so much its' reliance on foreign oil but much more its' reliance on the dollar as the sole oil trading currency globally. More and more Middle Eastern governments openly daring to discuss an eventual switch to another (non-U.S. dollar) currency coupled with an ever increasing instable Middle East where longstanding 'petrodollar' allies such as the Saudi royal family are becoming increasingly unpopular, are a much higher threat to the U.S. economy (and U.S. standards of living) than its' dependence on oil.

It could be argued that the current state of affairs in the world (Iraq, Iran) can be directly linked to a U.S. Government trying to maintain the hegemony of the U.S. dollar globally, the U.S. dollar in oil-trading specifically, and the U.S. economy in general. But that's an entire different discussion!

And this...

Quoting Pelican (Reply 22):
I just can't stand this uninformed attitude which is ignorant of the rest of the world - which argues "we have to spend so much because the rest of the world does nothing". Why do we Germans send troops to Afghanistan of the coast of Lebanon and the Horn of Africa, Congo (until today), the Balkans.
Why do we provide aid to Iraq?

Oh......it's you.

But that doesn't sound like a local problem to me

       

[Edited 2006-12-23 02:42:52]
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Klaus
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 25):
But that doesn't sound like a local problem to me....it still sounds like you're complaining about some Americans...

Unless you're a single child who refuses to go outside, you'll have to deal with people looking at you. Fortunately, you're allowed - even expected - to look right back...!  bigthumbsup 
 
Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:48 am

I have an answer to this whole issue....

It's going to be called "The Schadenfreude Project"

We're all going to gang up on a country selected at random, and we'll dump all over it it for a week or so....google news will provide all the ammunition.

Who's up first? Central African Republic, anyone? Mongolia, maybe, or Chechnya?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Klaus
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 27):
I have an answer to this whole issue....It's going to be called "The Schadenfreude Project"We're all going to gang up on a country selected at random, and we'll dump all over it it for a week or so....google news will provide all the ammunition.

I think you really misunderstand what's going on. A bit like a single child who feels mortally insulted by the perfectly normal interchange among a group of kids around it...

You can't interfere with everybody's life on this planet and at the same time demand that nobody had an opinion about it. That is simply impossible.

You're very much welcome to criticize european or other regions' policies wherever you find fault with them, especially if they substantially affect your life. It's how things work in a world where more than one nation has policies, interests and especially free-thinking populations.

It is perfectly normal, and if people abroad (or at home) believe that your government sucks, you could either defend their policies or help getting a better one...! Big grin
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:01 am

Just a simple question Doug: ever lived abroad? I have for awhile now, and let me tell ya - nothing is more critical in the long run than listening to what the global community thinks of us. The arrogant defiance you've displayed in this thread thus far is endemic of the realities most Americans are unwilling or unable to fully realize.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:09 am

What is your problem, Dougloid? I've read your little rant in reply #15 and it is pretty obvious that your opinion on the purposes of a discussion-board are somewhat different than those of other people. If one does not like a particular discussion, there's a very simple remedy: don't read it, let alone participate with off-topic and thus rule-violating posts!

Or are you simply copying an other users' posting habits telling us, again and again, how boring/repetitive/whatever a specific thread is, in the hope that one day, like him, you will become a Forum Moderator?
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Klaus
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
Just a simple question Doug: ever lived abroad? I have for awhile now, and let me tell ya - nothing is more critical in the long run than listening to what the global community thinks of us.

The point being that rather few people abroad actually think as badly of americans per se as many americans apparently fear - most people abroad think that the USA and americans in general are quite okay and rather nice, just with some particular points which utterly suck or are at the very least in dire need of intensive discussion...!

Quite normal, all in all. The same could be said about attitudes between many other countries as well - the most important thing is to stay in communication, to be aware of and receptive to other people's views, even and especially if they differ from one's own.
 
baroque
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
So why in the hell are you so interested about this subject?

Go on Douggie, you would go and sulk in a corner if we really ignored you! Why else would the US make such a pig's breakfast of Iraq - just good old fashioned attention seeking behaviour?

More directly, some of us at least are worried because of the overhang that the US has on the general world economy. You sneeze, we have usually been taken to hospital with a bad case of pneumonia. So, but of course with your kind permission, 'Sirr, can we take a look out the window to check on our upcoming health problems'.

??Roll on the dominance of China!

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 16):
Personally, I'm a student of the Austrian school of economics. I don't knit but I can sew on a button if I have to.



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 18):
That last person he wanted to hear from, at least. I'll bet the students wanted to hear from the actual author.

Interesting story that. I lived next doot to the son of F Hayek in college for a year. Son, being a medic student (in those good old days, this was short hand for not being bright enough to do maths or economics come to that) did not rhapsodise on his fathers econ theories, although I knew well who father H was.

But the interesting bit is that son was then benefiting from all the Fabian inspired benefits of the mid 50s UK welfare state. Tsk tsk, what an hypocrisy on the part of H senior. He should have found an economically rational cave and retired thence!

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 20):
It could be argued that the current state of affairs in the world (Iraq, Iran) can be directly linked to a U.S. Government trying to maintain the hegemony of the U.S. dollar globally, the U.S. dollar in oil-trading specifically, and the U.S. economy in general. But that's an entire different discussion! Smile

Kim is quite the opposite. If stories of his dollar forging are correct, he is well aboard! As it is the US is close to paying more in interest than for defence (or offence as someone smartly remarked).

Now I know that contributions from Aus on this topic will be more than usually irritating especially post April 2006 when our Feds became net creditors, that is correct, no national debt (although buckets full of private debt). So we will just note that and ignore it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
You can't interfere with everybody's life on this planet and at the same time demand that nobody had an opinion about it. That is simply impossible.

 checkmark  Just so, and in spades - doubled, redoubled!

More generally, during the height of the Cold War, a Marxist friend of mine commented that the US would in the long run lose out to Russia as the dominance of the US had been due to resources and Russia would outlast the US in resources.

In the early 90s, this seemed totally risible. But, well, not so risible now. And so far mostly due to oil and gas, without their metals potential coming much to the fore.

In the late 90s we heard how the net boom had made things like profits old fashioned, and then we found that was not true.

Certainly, the US has done well on IP. However the next Gates is forecast to come from China. Can the US maintain its dominance, now that its superiority in raw materials has largely gone? I am not sure, but it does at least deserve consideration. It is fairly obvious how much oil imports cost. So far, they have, by and large been on tick. But the bills will eventually fall due. The only major natural resource still available to the US is coal, and that has the greenhouse question hanging over it.

And what then?

Going back to the start of MY rant, the rest of the world does have a stake in all this because of the extent to which the US has inserted itself in ALL our economies.

It seems odds on to end in tears - eventually. So when becomes at least as critical as how.
 
petertenthije
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:27 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Can the US maintain its dominance, now that its superiority in raw materials has largely gone?

The trick of the petro-dollar is that by pricing all oil/gas in dollars, the combined world's oil/gas resources can be considered the US's. With that I do not mean the oil/gas is actually from the US (they'd like that!). I mean that for any dollar spend on oil/gas, one dollar has to be spend in the US.

As long as the petro-dollar remains the sole currency, the US has nothing to fear. If that changes the US economy will be affected though. Depending how fast a transition is made this could have real dire consequences for the US economy, and with it the world economy as well. The latter will assure that countries think twice before dumping the petro-dollar. No one is waiting for a global recession.
Attamottamotta!
 
Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
Just a simple question Doug: ever lived abroad? I have for awhile now, and let me tell ya - nothing is more critical in the long run than listening to what the global community thinks of us. The arrogant defiance you've displayed in this thread thus far is endemic of the realities most Americans are unwilling or unable to fully realize.

No, I haven't lived outside the United States. Rather, I'm like the man who had never been to Mississippi and wasn't the worse for the experience.

I have lived in thirteen different states at last count. That's a lot of mileage and a lot of culture-although in the view of many who've spent a week in Los Angeles one time and are therefore experts that it is a vast wasteland with no socially redeeming value where the inhabitants are all Morlocks who'd execute people for spitting on the sidewalk if they could.

Simply stated, what we're seeing here on this thread, as we often do elsewhere in this site, is the unhealthy obsession folks have with affairs in this country, of which they know little or nothing, and who aren't willing to listen to those of us who are informed, reasonably well educated, and who do have considered opinions.

So I figured the Schadenfreude Project was a good way of spreading the wealth. Kind of an equal opportunity uninformed abuse project, make sure everyone's got their fair share of blame for things they're not responsible for.

So, how about it, Myanmar? Are you ready for your turn in the barrel?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
Simply stated, what we're seeing here on this thread, as we often do elsewhere in this site, is the unhealthy obsession folks have with affairs in this country, of which they know little or nothing, and who aren't willing to listen to those of us who are informed, reasonably well educated, and who do have considered opinions.

Wow!

First things first: funny how you accuse people of not wanting to listen to informed, reasonably well educated people on this issue when your participation so far in this thread has been limited to telling other people what they shouldn't be discussing about! Not counting your latest post, you replied 5 times in this thread already and in all of them you miraculously managed to dodge the actual topic while telling other people who did show interest in the issue how useless/boring/whatever the entire thread was!

Telling people participating in this thread that they have an "unhealthy obsession" with affairs in your country "of which they know little or nothing" while at the same time telling those same people NOT to discuss this issue shows an incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance, all at the same time.

If you had read this thread more thoroughly you would have noticed that this discussion is far from being a mud-slinging fest across the Atlantic in which you are the only participating U.S. citizen 'left to defend the fort'. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

Your assumption that 'folks are obsessed with affairs in your country' shows a great deal of misunderstanding about the importance of the U.S. dollar on the global stage. Folks here, myself included, would be more than willing to do everything needed (i.e., through a decent discussion) to try to get rid of that misunderstanding, but perhaps you should show some more willingness to have a decent, on-topic discussion in the first place.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Leezyjet
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
Simply stated, what we're seeing here on this thread, as we often do elsewhere in this site, is the unhealthy obsession folks have with affairs in this country, of which they know little or nothing, and who aren't willing to listen to those of us who are informed, reasonably well educated, and who do have considered opinions.

So basically what you are saying is that we are doing in this thread exactly what the US does to everyone else except we are on a much smaller scale and nobody has died from our interference !!.

Most people don't have a problem with Americans as such. It is the holier than thou attitude, double standards and the ignorance towards other cultures and the belief that everyone wants to live the "American" way that p!$$es people off, especially when most of Americans have never even travelled outside their own country and base most of their knowledge of global issues on what little the actually media reports on. It is because these traits affect the rest of the world especially in US foreign policy that gives us the right to criticise especially when thousands of people are dieing because of it.

Americans needs to learn to take the constructive criticism of their nation and actually listen to what people are saying to them rather than just coming back with derogatory comments or saying we are all just jealous when in fact we are not. Just try and take a moment to put yourself in the other persons shoes and think how you as an American would react if another country was doing to you what you are doing to them.

We are not all US haters despite what you may think from some posts (I actually miss visiting the US but I won't be going back until after GWB is out of office), we would just like to see the day when the US backs off a little and stops throwing it's weight around like the playground bully.

 Smile
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Dougloid
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 35):
irst things first: funny how you accuse people of not wanting to listen to informed, reasonably well educated people on this issue when your participation so far in this thread has been limited to telling other people what they shouldn't be discussing about! Not counting your latest post, you replied 5 times in this thread already and in all of them you miraculously managed to dodge the actual topic while telling other people who did show interest in the issue how useless/boring/whatever the entire thread was!

Telling people participating in this thread that they have an "unhealthy obsession" with affairs in your country "of which they know little or nothing" while at the same time telling those same people NOT to discuss this issue shows an incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance, all at the same time.

If you had read this thread more thoroughly you would have noticed that this discussion is far from being a mud-slinging fest across the Atlantic in which you are the only participating U.S. citizen 'left to defend the fort'. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

Your assumption that 'folks are obsessed with affairs in your country' shows a great deal of misunderstanding about the importance of the U.S. dollar on the global stage. Folks here, myself included, would be more than willing to do everything needed (i.e., through a decent discussion) to try to get rid of that misunderstanding, but perhaps you should show some more willingness to have a decent, on-topic discussion in the first place.

Sorry...you guys weigh in on every slugfest...it's always the same, it never changes, and you get offended when I call you out on it...show me I'm wrong. Beat up on Mongolia this week and I'll eat some crow.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 36):
basically what you are saying is that we are doing in this thread exactly what the US does to everyone else except we are on a much smaller scale and nobody has died from our interference !!.

Most people don't have a problem with Americans as such. It is the holier than thou attitude, double standards and the ignorance towards other cultures and the belief that everyone wants to live the "American" way that p!$$es people off, especially when most of Americans have never even travelled outside their own country and base most of their knowledge of global issues on what little the actually media reports on. It is because these traits affect the rest of the world especially in US foreign policy that gives us the right to criticise especially when thousands of people are dieing because of it.

Americans needs to learn to take the constructive criticism of their nation and actually listen to what people are saying to them rather than just coming back with derogatory comments or saying we are all just jealous when in fact we are not. Just try and take a moment to put yourself in the other persons shoes and think how you as an American would react if another country was doing to you what you are doing to them.

We are not all US haters despite what you may think from some posts (I actually miss visiting the US but I won't be going back until after GWB is out of office), we would just like to see the day when the US backs off a little and stops throwing it's weight around like the playground bully.

Nope....I don't need a lecture from you about my government, friend. What YOU need to be doing is writing letters to people in the US government....I do that regularly. Have you ever done more about your opinions than post stuff to a crummy chatboard? Well then.....

Just as a matter of clarification, I couldn't care less if you're jealous of what we do here or not....it is of no importance to me....

Try talking about something else for a while and I'll concede your even handedness. The other guy's got Mongolia, I've got Myanmar....suppose you beat up on Chad.....then we'll see.

The Schadenfreude Project is up and running nicely....
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 13):
Your post sounds that you believe US does everything and the rest of the world doesn't care.

No I think the US does a lot and the rest of the world resents it.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
Yeah because we are really doing a lot about NK, Iran and Darfur.

We still have troops in South Korea. Which is why I mentioned it. Would South Korea have been one of the Asian Tigers if they didn't have the protection of US Troops against North Korea? No. They would have had to spend more of their own GDP on Defense then they already do or have been run over by North Korea. Either way South Korea owes its industrialization to the US military, so the worlds gets cheap ships and goods from South Korea thanks to the US defense budget.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
What the major problem has been is that for the last 6 years the GOP has gone on a spending spree of epic proportions and the President has provided zero, nill, zip, notta, nothing in terms of oversight on this.

I agree with that. I don't however, trust the next Congress to be better. In fact, they are talking like they will be far worse.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
Our reliance on foreign oil is really bad.

However, most attempts to do something about that are shouted down by environmentalists. Look how they are screaming over the opening up of more of the Gulf of Mexico to oil and gas drilling. Meanwhile Mexico is going further and further out into the Gulf. Then we have to buy it from them. ANWAR is off limits. Hell, even try to built renewable sources and eviormentalists get bent out of shape. Try finding a place for a wind farm that environmentalists like.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 22):
Problem is that he mixes military spending with aid for third world countries.

As I argued the US military spending even when it ISN'T direct aid to Bosnia or relief flights to disaster zones is aid to many nations.

Japan is the country it is because 90% of it's defense is the US military. South Korea has been built in the face of North Korea under the US military shield. Tankers of all nations sail through the Straits of Hormuz because the US Navy is there to protect them, and on and on.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
Sorry...you guys weigh in on every slugfest

Where is the slugfest in this particular discussion? There is none! You are the only one here imagining such slugfest but if you'd actually bothered to take part in the ongoing discussion you would have quickly noticed that all there is is well founded and real concern on the issue.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
and you get offended when I call you out on it

I wasn't offended at all, just annoyed. Annoyed over the fact that you somehow believe other people, especially those who are not U.S. citizens, should not (dare to?) discuss issues concerning your country. If the topic of this discussion would be about who will be the next major of New York, Boston or whatever U.S. city, I'd somehow agree with you. Your whole problem is that you simply fail to comprehend how the U.S. economy in general (and U.S. deficits in particular) affect the entire world. Once you understand that, you'll see that this particular discussion certainly isn't the slugfest you assume it is.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):
Beat up on Mongolia this week and I'll eat some crow.

As soon as the money I spend on petrol directly supports the economy in Mongolia, I'll start a specific thread on the subject. In the meantime, I'll just stick to the actual situation whether you like it or not.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Jalto27R
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:06 am

America's Doomed! The dollar is doomed! Most of Europe's economy might suck, but hell, America's can't last much longer at the pace it is going. Doomed...doom doom doom. Oh wait..did I steal another person's thread idea?
 
cfalk
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
- Combined federal deficits total more than 400% of GDP. Our nation's government owes 4 times the amount of money that the entire economy generates in one year (2006).

- $8.507 trillion: the reported (official) US government debt level.

As GDP was over $12 trillion in 2005, I suggest you take some remedial math.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html

[Edited 2006-12-24 03:12:31]
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cedarjet
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
even though we Americans tend to sincerely believe in American exceptionalism, the dollar is not immune to foolish political decisions.

Just what I always say - I'm sure the good people of Argentina, Indonesia etc thought they were immune from bad economic policies too, but the US economy cannot defy gravity and basic economic principles.

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 3):
Maybe they should try spending a little less on defense :-

God, if only.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
If the government is spending money on something that won't give them a return on their investment, then yes we do have a big problem. But if we are spending money on things that will help the economy (such as infrastructure) that will give give us a return on our money, then the future doesn't look so bleak.

I don't think it IS being spent on infrastructure. If anything, I think America's previously highly-valued infrastructure is being left to rot, whether it's the levies in NO or whatever. It's all being spent on bombs and tax breaks for the rich. Neither of which will create any financial return whatsoever.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 6):
And so long as the world looks to the US, in times of trouble, then we will end up spending a lot of money on defense.

Oh please. Where do people get such ideas? The US is the cause of plenty of trouble, and if I was in any non-US related trouble, they are the last people I want to see turning up in uniform.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 11):
When there is an earthquake in the third world and people need tents and supplies it comes out of the entitlements part of the budget or what?

The US is no bigger donor of aid in the aftermath of a natural disaster than any other nation. And it's military record in other parts of the world (eg Iraq) make it politically difficult or impossible to help, even if it is help that is offered - weren't US military forces told to stay away by Sri Lanka and / or Indonesia after the Tsunami? And Iran after it's earthquake. And others etc.

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
So what? Everything is ticking along nicely, people are employed and making money, infrastructure continues to be improved and the economy is growing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.

I like Americans and lots of things about the country, but I can't shake the suspicion that incompetent or dishonest leadership WILL HAVE REAL CONSEQUENCES. How about you're sitting back, relaxing and enjoying the ride while the pilot is two dots below the glideslope? You might be enjoying your peanuts in air conditioned luxury and heading straight for the ground. If you're sitting back etc, how would you know?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:58 pm

Japan is the country it is because 90% of it's defense is the US military.

Either way South Korea owes its industrialization to the US military

What hopelessly ignorant generalizations cherry-picked from a singular truth. This is exactly the kind of arrogance that is sending any foreign respect for America down the drain.

[Edited 2006-12-24 04:59:42]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 42):

Oh please. Where do people get such ideas? The US is the cause of plenty of trouble, and if I was in any non-US related trouble, they are the last people I want to see turning up in uniform.

Hmmmm where do people get these ideas? This is why I think a true isolationist policy for a few years would be great.

Just a simple with drawl from all overseas entanglements. When Africa knocks on the door looking for AIDS funding the Answer would be, No. When they asked for Drugs we demand full payment. When there is a natural disaster the US Air Force would not be used to assist.

Cedarjet you sit there in a country that, with the other European powers caused all this mess. The US didn't colonize Africa leaving them with artificial boarders and hopeless governments. The US didn't divide up the Middle East. It didn't promise Palestine to Jews and Arabs during World War I. Britain did that. Britain and France created Iraq. Britain invaded Afghanistan. Britain created India, with Muslims and Hindus together. They make a mess by pitting one religion against the other then when they left watched it explode, into 6 wars. Europe fought two wars in the last century, that killed more people than the world had ever seen.

The US got involved in Vietnam. A country screwed up by France. The US was involved in the Philippines and Cuba countries screwed up by Spain.

Europe has made mess after mess in this world since the Crusades, and you have the audacity to blame the US for 50 years of the Cold War! Seems to me that compared with the Crusades, the 30 Years War, the French Revolution, the Napoleonic wars, the Crimean war, the Franco-Prussian War, World War I the Spanish civil war, World War II and the Stalinist purges, the US brought a bit of stability to Europe after 500 years of fairly constant bloodshed.

Europe was put back on it's feet by the Marshall Plan. Then the EU was able to grow and prosper under the protection of the US military. Do you REALLY think that War ravaged Western Europe could have withstood a Soviet invasion WITHOUT the US?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 42):
The US is no bigger donor of aid in the aftermath of a natural disaster than any other nation. And it's military record in other parts of the world (eg Iraq) make it politically difficult or impossible to help, even if it is help that is offered - weren't US military forces told to stay away by Sri Lanka and / or Indonesia after the Tsunami? And Iran after it's earthquake. And others etc.

That's just patently false. The United States donated more money and aide than any other country during the Tsunami. And US aide flights where flown by US military aircraft round the clock.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
What hopelessly ignorant generalizations cherry-picked from a singular truth. This is exactly the kind of arrogance that is sending any foreign respect for America down the drain.

Sure. I'd love to see the Japanese defence force to defend against the Chinese. I'd love to pull troops from South Korea and see how long it take Kim Jong Il to invade.

Thank you Aaron747 for proving my point. The world loves US aide and US Military expenditures. But mostly they love to be able to resent it.

I find it the height of irony that citizens of some countries criticise the amount the US spends on defense, when they live in counties who for 60 years have been able to spend LESS on defense because their country's military was augmented by the US military. US Tax dollars paid for Japanese defense, Korean defense, and the Defense of Western Europe.

If Britain, France and Germany had to pay for their own defense in FULL, the welfare state they enjoy would not have been possible.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:35 pm

So completely wrong on so many levels...the only thing you've got right is the defense dollars spent on these countries, but as to the why, how, or what that has to do with industrialization, much less achievement of these nations, is stupendously beyond your grasp. geopolitics does not operate on a de facto system of dependent variables.

the ugly American indeed. try making those same generalizations to a korean or japanese audience - I'd like to see you explain away the unanswerable counterpoints you'd meet with your stark generalization-based worldview.

[Edited 2006-12-24 06:37:31]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 44):
Thank you Aaron747 for proving my point. The world loves US aide and US Military expenditures. But mostly they love to be able to resent it.

How comes it that the US is able to have such huge military expenditures in the first place? How come the US is able, year in year out, to have incredible military budgets, have tremendous deficits and occasionally have huge tax-cuts at the same time? I believed I answered that question already in my first post in this thread: the global oil-trading is done in US dollars. Japan buying oil from the Saudi Arabia, South-Korea getting it from Norway and Germany obtaining their oil from Russia, no matter who buys from who, the US always benefits as long as the mandatory US dollar is used and which the US itself simply needs to print.

Again, every time I fill up my gas tank, I am contributing to your economy. To be able to buy oil on the global oil market I need US dollars which I can obtain by selling you goods and/or services. And since I am forced to do business with you to obtain those greenbacks I need, you are in a position to demand a lower price for those DVD-players, plasma-tv's or whatever I have to offer you. And once I have my dollars I give them to Saudi Arabia to finally obtain some of their oil.

Basically, the US Aide and Military Expenditures which, according to you, other nations love so much, have in a great part been financed directly by those other nations, not because they wanted but because they were forced to.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
cfalk
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 46):
Again, every time I fill up my gas tank, I am contributing to your economy.



Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 46):
Basically, the US Aide and Military Expenditures which, according to you, other nations love so much, have in a great part been financed directly by those other nations, not because they wanted but because they were forced to.

I have degrees in economics, accounting and finance, and I can't understand your logic. That's the kind of pseudo-economics that Marxists and leftists try to put out, but just as Marxism itself, it just doesn't work.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 44):

Excellent post.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 46):
n US dollars. Japan buying oil from the Saudi Arabia, South-Korea getting it from Norway and Germany obtaining their oil from Russia, no matter who buys from who, the US always benefits as long as the mandatory US dollar is used and which the US itself simply needs to print.

Again, every time I fill up my gas tank, I am contributing to your economy. T

Ride a bike or walk if you don't like it.

No, you should discuss your thesis with an Economics Professor. He will tell you what eventully happens if country A sells something to country B in the currency of country C.

You certainly do not contribute, you rather weaken the economy of country C.
The US has a very strong domestic economy and is by sheer size also one of the largest export nations. The fact that their currency is used by many other nations means that there are a lot of Dollars around (not in real currency but in cybermoney) for which no real economic value in country C is created. What will happen if Country A decides to sell their earned $$$ in exchange for €€?

Right the exchange rate will crumble and the $$$ evetually might become worthless. Lucky for the USA is that their foreign trade deficits are offset by the fact that many of the owner of $$$ send this money back to the US where they buy values, like real estate or companies.

If the USA would not be a free country, a state of the law where new values are created every day, the fact that uncrontrollable currency streams outside the national economy exist, would actually be a big threat to the domestic economy. BTW - it is to the benefit of the USA and their currency, that the € was created and takes some of the pressure away from thr $.

Now, the above is applicable for trade between countries without own strong currencies. If - for instance - Norway sells gas or oil to Germany - the commodity is quoted in US$, however the transaction takes place in € at the given rate of exchange, or, in my business, ocean freight rates are quoted in US$, however I pay the shipping line in € at the ship's rate. Your fear, that each time you support the US economy when you fill the tank of your car is totally unfounded.
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Schoenorama
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RE: The United States Government Is Insolvent

Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
I have degrees in economics, accounting and finance, and I can't understand your logic.

I think I explained in quite a comprehensible way.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
That's the kind of pseudo-economics that Marxists and leftists try to put out, but just as Marxism itself, it just doesn't work.

Nice Cfalk. Why don't you just try to discuss the arguments as others have done? Surely, for someone with an degree in economics, accounting and finance, that shouldn't be too difficult without having to resort to cheap generalizations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
No, you should discuss your thesis with an Economics Professor.

Much of this 'thesis' as you call it actually comes from Economics professors!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Right the exchange rate will crumble and the $$$ evetually might become worthless.

And where does this contradict my argument? Owners of $$$ are primarily those who've obtained them from the sale of oil and the single reason why they obtained dollars in the first place and not euros, or yuans or dinars is because the oil-market has dictated the use of the greenback for decades.

Of course the U.S. dollar has its importance on the global economy and individual nations have at least a short-term interest to keep it that way if they don't want to loose huge amounts of money, that doesn't mean however that the U.S. in general does not benefit from the current dollar nominated global oil-trading.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Lucky for the USA is that their foreign trade deficits are offset by the fact that many of the owner of $$$ send this money back to the US where they buy values, like real estate or companies.

This is where you are mistaken. A large portion of the petrodollars, the money oil-exporting nations obtain, is actually invested in U.S. treasuries, which in turn finances U.S. debt.

"...the trade surpluses of oil-producing nations jumped along with them. In 2006 their surplus is projected to eclipse that of Asia, according to the International Monetary Fund, with fuel exporters expected to generate a $505 billion surplus, vs. $462 billion from Asian nations. Much of that money ended up in U.S. Treasuries." (1)

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
the fact that uncrontrollable currency streams outside the national economy exist, would actually be a big threat to the domestic economy.



...which is why I argued earlier on in this discussion that the current state of affairs globally (Iraq, Iran, Venezuela to mention just a few who have threathened to swith to a non-US currency or actually did so) has more to do with maintaining the US dollar in oil-trading then anything else. Krassimir Petrov, a PhD in Economics, called the actual switching to the Euro the actual "nuclear weapon" Iran possesses.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
BTW - it is to the benefit of the USA and their currency, that the € was created and takes some of the pressure away from thr $.

The creation of the Euro itself might be beneficial to the dollar, that certainly isn't the case when that Euro is employed in oil-trading instead of the US dollar. More and more nations are slowly starting to switch their US currency reserves to the Euro and Iran has recently started selling its oil in the European currency. Now these slow changes might not have such a drastic effect on the US dollar that it constitutes a short-term threat to the US in general, but there are increasing signals within OPEC, not in the least caused by the geopolitical situation in the Middle East, to steadily drop the US dollar in favour of another yet to be decided currency but with a tendency towards the Euro.

My whole argument that me, or any non-US citizen for that matter, buying petrol at the pump directly benefits the US still stands and I haven't seen one single argument in your otherwise interesting post which would suggest me being wrong. The single reason why the US is capable of running tremendous deficits is because foreign nations which an increasing appetite for oil (ie, China) are eagerly obtaining equally tremendous amounts of US dollars to buy all the oil their economies need. If the US dollar wasn't the mandatory currency in the global oil-trading market, then how the heck would the US be able to finance its debt of no one wanted their dollars in the first place?

(1) http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_41/b4004053.htm
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