aaflt1871
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Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:30 am

"But Bush and his lawyer are fighting the removal, in a legal and medical oddity that raises questions about patient privacy and how far the government can go to solve crimes without running afoul of the constitutional protection against unreasonable searches and seizures"

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1012434

He holds vital evidence to a crime which he commited, I say remove it.
Where did everybody go?
 
bushpilot
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:52 am

Interesting story. I wonder what other sort of cases this type of thing has happened. I would imagine a prosecutor with half a brain could still get a conviction without it.
"Ladies and Gentleman of the Jury, in his forehead is a bullet that hit him from the victims gun."
Christ it is Texas, they will probably manage to convict him of killing JFK as well.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Thread starter):
He holds vital evidence to a crime which he commited, I say remove it.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Thread starter):
He holds vital evidence to a crime which he commited, I say remove it.

"Prosecutors said they continue to look for a doctor or hospital willing to remove the bullet."

They're looking for a doctor or hospital willing to remove the bullet? Start making some obstruction of justice arrests, put some physicians in jail on the 23rd of December and I have a feeling their search will end quickly.
 
Queso
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:56 am

I saw this story on CNN and thought about posting it, but couldn't think of a good way to cut it up so that I wasn't breaking "fair-use" rules. Damned good story if you read it all: http://cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/21/teen.b...llet.ap/index.html?eref=sitesearch

My view on this is that there is more than probable cause, if the bullet was anywhere else, it would be a non-issue. Evidence is evidence and I think this needs to be collected.

Why is he not allowing it if he's innocent? It would be exculpatory evidence and he would come out a winner either way with a follow-up lawsuit against the city for millions.

Either way, he is one lucky son of a bitch.
 
scottieprecord
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 1):
Christ it is Texas

In other words, he'll probably get the death penalty...  Smile

-Mike
 
Go3Team
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:15 am

Wouldn't he want to have it removed, just incase there are effects from it, that aren't known yet?

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 4):
In other words, he'll probably get the death penalty...

Not likely, considering the Supreme Court's decision that anyone committing murder under the age of 18 is not eligable for the death penalty. But like I said above, maybe Stupid will catch some kind of disorder from it, and die anyway.
Yay Pudding!
 
Queso
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 5):
Wouldn't he want to have it removed, just incase there are effects from it, that aren't known yet?

Lots of people are carrying bullets around in their bodies for long periods of time. I carried a piece of a bullet in my arm for 17 years and finally had it removed last year after I just decided that it was time to have it taken out. No ill effects as long as it is not affecting bodily functions.

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 5):
Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 4):
In other words, he'll probably get the death penalty...

Not likely, considering the Supreme Court's decision that anyone committing murder under the age of 18 is not eligable for the death penalty. But like I said above, maybe Stupid will catch some kind of disorder from it, and die anyway.

He didn't kill anybody, so he won't get the DP. Too bad.
 
waterpolodan
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:05 am

I can see a law and order episode being made with this same premise in 3... 2... 1...
 
ltbewr
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 12:51 pm

This minor male had a gun as part of a 'gang' that was committing an armed robbery of a used car lot. The owner of the lot had a legal handgun and shot at the this teen, placing a 9mm bullet into the fleshy part just above his forehead. It's too bad the guy wasn't a better shot!
As to the issue of why he doesn't want the bullet removed: it would positively connect him to the bullet from the gun of the lot owner, and to allow it's removal would be against the alleged criminal's US Constitution Rights as to not incriminate yourself to a crime. The basis of this right is to prevent a forced confession. While this is a stretch of the 5th Amendment, this interpretation has been upheld by the US Supreme Court.
 
prosa
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 7):
I can see a law and order episode being made with this same premise in 3... 2... 1...

Me too, except there will be a certain difference between the episode and the real-life event ...
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:02 pm

"Innocent until proven guilty", anyone?  sarcastic 

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 2):
They're looking for a doctor or hospital willing to remove the bullet? Start making some obstruction of justice arrests, put some physicians in jail on the 23rd of December and I have a feeling their search will end quickly.

Yeah, because perversion of justice is so fashionable...
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 7):
I can see a law and order episode being made with this same premise in 3... 2... 1...

Too late. Boston Legal already did it in episode 7 of season 1.

"Lori helps her former informant who was shot while robbing a convenience store and who does not want the bullet removed because it could incriminate him."
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
"Innocent until proven guilty", anyone?

Absolutely which is why the suspect should be insisting the bullet be removed. I mean, he IS innocent, right?
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 12):
I mean, he IS innocent, right?

That is for him to know and for a court to judge. An operation against his will is akin to criminal assault, which would get everyone involved in very hot water.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 3):
Either way, he is one lucky son of a bitch.

And why 9mm is too small  Wink
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
BH
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:03 am

"When he was questioned about a week later, Bush admitted taking part in the robbery but not the shooting, police said."

"Tammie Bush, the teen's mother, disputed allegations her son is a gang member.


"We know he's not a criminal," she said. "He's a good kid.""




Looks like mom is a little behind things. How can she say he is not a criminal after her son admits to taking part in the robbery. I guess because he didnt kill anyone she thinks he is still a good kid.  Confused
 
cfalk
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
An operation against his will is akin to criminal assault, which would get everyone involved in very hot water.

The problem is that, given the chance, he will go someplace else and have the bullet removed by a doctor who is not obligated to turn over the bullet to the police, and the evidence of the crime will be destroyed.

Remember that a warrant for the bullet has already been issued, which means that a judge has already reviewed the evidence and found it highly likely that the bullet will convict him. Assuming that the kid does not really want to spend the rest of his life with a bullet lodged right up against his brain, if that warrant is not served, it will indeed lead to the destruction of evidence.

If you really want to be legalistic about it, what if the car lot manager files a claim in court saying that the bullet is his, and he wants it back  Wink
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
The problem is that, given the chance, he will go someplace else and have the bullet removed by a doctor who is not obligated to turn over the bullet to the police, and the evidence of the crime will be destroyed.

That's very true, and highly specific to this case. What I (always) have a problem with is people judging some total stranger who just so happens to be a suspect on the grounds of some sort of random evidence they've read on a news website. He certainly cannot be a saint if he admittedly takes part in armed robbery, but like any other suspect he is innocent until proven guilty.

I took no special liking to that "I can't believe I missed that  censored !" comment either - a victim of armed assault should still have a problem with shooting and possibly killing any other person... that's my rant for now, though.  Smile

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16):
If you really want to be legalistic about it, what if the car lot manager files a claim in court saying that the bullet is his, and he wants it back

 rotfl  Nice one!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
YWG
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 6):
No ill effects as long as it is not affecting bodily functions.

I really would think twice about fooling around with the brain/skull. Most of the brain is still largely a medical mystery.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
corey07850
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):
And why 9mm is too small Wink

Kick ass shot by the salesman though... Right in the forehead above the eyes after being shot at
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
He certainly cannot be a saint if he admittedly takes part in armed robbery, but like any other suspect he is innocent until proven guilty.

What's your point? How much more proof of guilt than the suspect himself saying, "I did it" are you asking for? "Prosecutor Ramon Rodriguez said gang members who took part in the robbery identified Bush as one of those involved. When he was questioned about a week later, Bush admitted taking part in the robbery but not the shooting, police said. Bush is in jail on charges related to the robbery, but not the shooting."
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 20):
What's your point? How much more proof of guilt than the suspect himself saying, "I did it" are you asking for?

I meant proof of him being involved in that exact shooting.  Wink
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KaiGywer
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):
I meant proof of him being involved in that exact shooting.

Then he should allow removal of the bullet to prove his innocence...
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
Then he should allow removal of the bullet to prove his innocence...

Like you said...

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
In God we trust. Everyone else (brings data).

 Wink Aside from what should and shouldn't be done, the bullet may very well be the core piece of evidence but it's not available. That means it doesn't prove anyone's guilt even if little doubt remains.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 22):
Then he should allow removal of the bullet to prove his innocence...

Like you said...

According to British, American and German law it is not the suspect's duty to prove his innocence, but the prosecution's to prove his guilt.

BTW, Aloges,

German law permits at least one way of getting evidence by physical invasion of the body, an operation which is being carried out hundreds of times every day, often with the cooperation of the suspect, but sometimes carried out by force:

The taking of a blood sample in a police station by a police doctor as evidence for DUI (either drugs or alcohol).
In Germany the breathalizer and the on the spot tests kits carried in police cars are not considered to be valid evidence in court, only a laboratory analysis of a blood or urine sample is, but a positive outcome of a breathalizer test is considered to be enough evidence to justify the taking of a blood sample. If the suspect doesn't cooperate, he will usually be pinned down by a couple of beefy police officers, while a police doctor will take the sample.

Now it can be argued that taking a simple blood sample is much less risky than a surgical operation inside the skull.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
According to British, American and German law it is not the suspect's duty to prove his innocence, but the prosecution's to prove his guilt.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. People are often too quick to judge others, so it is important for our courts to differ from that.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
German law permits at least one way of getting evidence by physical invasion of the body

good point

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
Now it can be argued that taking a simple blood sample is much less risky than a surgical operation inside the skull.

But still, if it's botched and those "beefy" policemen don't proceed properly, there's a high risk of infections and potentially lethal side effects. To be fair, I haven't heard of anything, but nevertheless it's a legal form of assault.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:25 pm

Get the pliers.

If the bullet isn't the evidence of his involvement in the crime in question and is in fact a random shot from a driveby (anyone check his house for bullet holes) like he claims then he gets free surgery on the states tab. I'm willing as a taxpayer to help pick this one up  Wink If it is the convicting piece of evidence, so long, won't miss ya, have fun in Huntsville.

He's got evidence of a crime, under either claim how it got there, and he isn't giving it up. Arrest him for obstruction and toss him in jail until the bullet can be removed.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
Aside from what should and shouldn't be done, the bullet may very well be the core piece of evidence but it's not available.

A judge in Port Arthur Texas disagrees with you. Not only is the bullet available but he has issued a search warrant ordering it to be retrieved. And I stand by what I said in an earlier post. The minute a physician or two finds himself in jail for obstruction of justice, I have a feeling the suspect will find himself in an O.R. right quick.
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 27):
Not only is the bullet available but he has issued a search warrant ordering it to be retrieved.

to make the bullet available, and then the suspect can be judged for that part of the crime

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 27):
The minute a physician or two finds himself in jail for obstruction of justice, I have a feeling the suspect will find himself in an O.R. right quick.

Which would still be perversion of justice. If you imprison a third party that hasn't been involved in any crime, you're the one doing the wrong thing.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 28):
If you imprison a third party that hasn't been involved in any crime, you're the one doing the wrong thing.

Obstruction of justice is a crime
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
itsjustme
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 28):
If you imprison a third party that hasn't been involved in any crime, you're the one doing the wrong thing.

Disobeying a court order is indeed a crime.
 
aloges
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 29):
Obstruction of justice is a crime



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 30):
Disobeying a court order is indeed a crime.

Now, if a physician cannot be ordered to carry out an execution, can he/she be ordered to perform surgery? Honest question here. In any case however, no randomly selected physician should be ordered to operate on anyone against both his and the patient's will.

If he declined to do it on ethical grounds, I'd have a problem with that being considered obstruction of justice. Doctors do get sued for all sorts of nonsense (among rightful lawsuits), imagine what might happen if something went wrong with that patient. We'd have someone who participated in armed robbery, waiting for trial, sueing the state or whomever for compensation.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
WSOY
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RE: Teen Fights Removal Of Bullet In Head

Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:39 am

There's a definite need to arm the black U.S. youth with a heavier and more realistic arsenal, as many have already pointed out in this thread. Many a black person will be sent to the actual urban combat theater, and a 9 mm is a poor excuse for armament in today's combat situations. I agree with many of the writers here, there really should be more realistic gun practice on the streets of the U.S.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)

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