dtwclipper
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Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:49 pm

What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

I do not believe there was any prearranged deal between Ford & Nixon, but was his own decision to end Watergate and move on.

It cost him the '76 election, but may have saved us from years of litigation.
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luv2fly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

I do not believe there was any prearranged deal between Ford & Nixon, but was his own decision to end Watergate and move on.

It cost him the '76 election, but may have saved us from years of litigation.

Could not agree more with you. YIKES!
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Superfly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:13 am

Pardoning Noxon was not the right thing to do but look at the bright side. It helped get Jimmy Carter elected which was a good thing.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Pardoning Noxon was not the right thing to do but look at the bright side. It helped get Jimmy Carter elected which was a good thing.

That's so short sighted.

Look, historians overwhelmingly agree that Ford did the right thing. He did it probably KNOWING it would cost him his political career. Hell, even Ted Kennedy who was beside himself in rage over the pardon then, has looked back and agreed that it was the right thing to do.

On the subject of Jimmy Carter, after Watergate and the Pardon, the Democrats could have run a chimp in a suit and won. So they ran Carter, who worsened the economy, destroyed the already fragile military, and reduced our standing in the world. Carter was perhaps the WORST man for the time.

Even if you look at it from a Democrat POV as I'm sure you will Superfly, Carter was SO bad that even with all of the good will Democrats OUGHT to have enjoyed from the Watergate era, in four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan. So I can't see, how electing Carter was a positive for Democrats.
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luv2fly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
Even if you look at it from a Democrat POV as I'm sure you will Superfly, Carter was SO bad that even with all of the good will Democrats OUGHT to have enjoyed from the Watergate era, in four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan. So I can't see, how electing Carter was a positive for Democrats.

I have to agree, I never thought Carter much of a President, though he really showed his true colors once out of the office.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
four short years people couldn't WAIT to get rid of him for Reagan

What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

Carter would not have been re-elected, but the mandate Reagan received would have been marginal.
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Matt D
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:41 am

What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

Carter would not have been re-elected, but the mandate Reagan received would have been marginal.


*cough cough* 1992 *cough cough* 1992.

Same scenario there.

Had Ross Perot not ran and split the conservative/moderate vote, it's probably a safe bet that Bush Sr. would've won a second term and Bubba would've stayed in Arkansas. Just go to http://www.270towin and see for yourself. Add up the Bush votes and the Perot votes. The majority of votes were AGAINST Clinton.

Now granted, I know he still won the Electoral vote, which is all that matters (unless, of course the EV favors a Conservative Republican), but it would've been fascinating to see what the outcome would've been had Perot not been in the mix.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
.

I totally disagree. Anderson was a Rockefeller Republican, for one. Secondly there was no race where Anderson bleed off support for Carter that cost him electoral votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png

Even if EVERY vote Anderson got went to Carter (and that IS A HUGE IF since Anderson was from the liberal wing of the Republican party) Carter would not have picked up a single state.

Your assertion is one of the great myths of the Democrat Party.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png

What does this map show to support you theory?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
Your assertion is one of the great myths of the Democrat Party.

I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.
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Superfly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 7):
Secondly there was no race where Anderson bleed off support for Carter that cost him electoral votes.

Incorrect!
Ray-gun won Democratic states with pluralities such as New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania just to name a few.
Also Jimmy Carter was blamed for inflation which was a problem before he he became president. If Ray-gun won the GOP nod in 1976 and was elected, he would have been a one-termer too.
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dvk
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
On the subject of Jimmy Carter

Carter barely beat Ford, and I don't think a chimp would have. Had Ford chosen not to run and Reagan gotten the '76 nomination, he might well have won, not carrying the pardon or any other Watergate baggage.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
, destroyed the already fragile military, and reduced our standing in the world.

sounds a lot like the current President...
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

Wow, 3 replies on-topic, 7 off-topic. Tsk, tsk.

Now to the question. Yes, the country was so polarized at that time, a full pardon was the only thing capable of allowing us to move on.

Even though he was berated for it at the time, Ford received the Kennedy Profile in Courage award a few decades later in recognition of how he acted.

I did not vote to elect Ford in '76, but that was more over the Oliver Sipple affair than anything else. Even though I didn't agree with Ford's politics, if it hadn't been for Sipple, I probably would have voted for him to say thank you for helping to heal the nation.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
What does this map show to support you theory?

The map shows the enormous Electoral college advantage Reagan had. It shows that Anderson's presence in the race did NOT affect Carter's electoral count.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.

No but you over-emphasized his affect.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Ray-gun won Democratic states with pluralities such as New York, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania just to name a few.

It was well documented that this had more to do with Reagan's appeal to fiscal conservative Democrats, not to people who would have voted for Anderson. Again I remind you Anderson was from the liberal wing of the Republican party, a Rockefeller Republican. He appealed to the country club RINO voters. Therefore his positions could NOT have affected most Democrat voters, and would NOT have drawn "Reagan Democrats" away from Carter in Rust Belt states as you assert Superfly.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Also Jimmy Carter was blamed for inflation which was a problem before he he became president. If Ray-gun won the GOP nod in 1976 and was elected, he would have been a one-termer too.

Well that's a idea for Alternative History SciFi. In other words, who cares? We will never know and you can't prove it one way or the other. The only thing you CAN say is that the economy was a problem during the Ford Administration (Whip Inflation Now) and he was blamed for it, as Presidents typically are. Carter's policies did nothing to relieve the situation, and in some ways made it worse.

He squandered the Democrat advantage they had in the wake of Watergate and the Pardon. If I were a Democrat I'd call him one of the worst Presidents for the Democrat party. His Presidency was so bad it would be 12 years before another Democrat could win. IF Democrats looked at it objectively they'd have to agree.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 10):
Carter barely beat Ford, and I don't think a chimp would have

I know the numbers are relatively close. Carter didn't win a landslide. But I distinctly remember the MOOD of the country. I simply don't think a Republican could have won in 1976. But that's just a judgement call. Your right, by the numbers Carter eeked out a victory by 2%

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):

I think that's a bit harsh Aerowesty, in fact we are talking about the political aftermath of the Pardon. I don't see how that is off topic.
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Falcon84
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:32 am

I think Mr. Nixon should have served time for what he did to this nation, but looking back in retrospective, there's no doubt, for the sake of the nation, Mr. Ford absolutely did the right thing.

Had we had to go through a trial of President Nixon, it would have been an excruciating ordeal, and who's to say Nixon would not have tried to bring the whole government down with him?

Gerald Ford was pragmatic, and in this case, his pragmatism served the nation well.
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Superfly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
Therefore his positions could NOT have affected most Democrat voters, and would NOT have drawn "Reagan Democrats" away from Carter in Rust Belt states as you assert Superfly.

Look at the numbers.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
I think that's a bit harsh Aerowesty, in fact we are talking about the political aftermath of the Pardon. I don't see how that is off topic.

Not harsh at all. I just came off a 3-day ban for being off-topic, while other posts stating the same thing in the same thread sat there for 28 hours without removal. The topic of this thread is was the pardon the right thing to do, not John Anderson or Ross Perot.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Look at the numbers.

I did, I have. Show me the numbers that show a liberal Republican bled enough votes from a liberal Democrat to affect the electoral out come.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Had we had to go through a trial of President Nixon, it would have been an excruciating ordeal, and who's to say Nixon would not have tried to bring the whole government down with him?

Gerald Ford was pragmatic, and in this case, his pragmatism served the nation well.

I agree.

Whats more is that historians, left and right, have come to that same conclusion whether they think Nixon ought to have served time or not. History will be far kinder to Gerald Ford than his contemporaries were. I think we are beginning to see that happening now. And on larger issues as well, I think history will look at the Ford Administration very well given the circumstances.
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Superfly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:04 am

UALPHLCS:
Jimmy Carter was not liberal.
Ted Kennedy challenged President Carter for not being liberal enough.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
Show me the numbers that show a liberal Republican bled enough votes from a liberal Democrat to affect the electoral out come.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?f=0&year=1980

Move your mouse over the states I mentioned above.
Also I find it intersting how close it was in the Deep South in states like MS, AL, SC and a few others.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
What do you all think? Did Ford do the right thing when he gave Nixon an unconditional pardon?

No. I think it set a dangerous precedent for how political corruption should be dealt with in the United States. Our public officials are not above the law, and when they break it, they should be subjected to the consequences just as any other citizen would be. Nobody would have pardoned Ken Lay on the grounds that his "shame" was payment enough for his missteps, so I don't see why Richard Nixon (or any of the other crooks in our political system for that matter) should have been treated any differently.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Move your mouse over the states I mentioned above.
Also I find it intersting how close it was in the Deep South in states like MS, AL, SC and a few others

Actually what you'll find in your stats is that John Anderson DID BEST in:

MA 15.15%, VT 14.90%, RI 14.38%, NH 12.94%, CT 12.22%.

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESUL...ts.php?year=1980&f=0&off=0&elect=0

Only ONE of those states is on the list of the tightest margin on victory.
Massachusetts. Which makes sense since Republicans in MA tend to be of the liberal wing.

So even your own numbers show that Anderson drained more away from Republicans afraid of Reagan's conservatism than he did from Democrats who would have voted for Carter. Anderson was a non-issue, and it is a myth that he any great affect on the outcome of the 1980 election.
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AirCop
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Yes, the country was so polarized at that time, a full pardon was the only thing capable of allowing us to move on.

 checkmark  Which the pardon served its purpose. It in end did we as Americans really want to put our president in prison, especially for a mickey mouse two bit offense, I think not. Out of office, and America moves on..
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
The map shows the enormous Electoral college advantage Reagan had. It shows that Anderson's presence in the race did NOT affect Carter's electoral count.

Right, but I was talking popular vote.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 12):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
I never implied that there would have been a change in the outcome of the 1980 election.

No but you over-emphasized his affect.

Nope, never did.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
What we often forget about the 1980 election, was the spoiler in the mix.

John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan.

This is what you said.

I don't see anyonther way of interpreting it, if Anderson opened the door for Reagan you are saying his presence got Reagan elected. The spoiler doesn't affect a winner!

I've shown that Anderson had absolutly NO affect. He had no affect on Carter's electoral count. He had negligable affect on Reagan's count so what's the point of even bringing him up?

At this point Aerowesty is right! Your entire line of reasoning is just a red herring from the point of this thread. The Politcal aftermath of the Ford Pardon of Nixon.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
andessmf
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
No. I think it set a dangerous precedent for how political corruption should be dealt with in the United States. Our public officials are not above the law, and when they break it, they should be subjected to the consequences just as any other citizen would be.

Certainly an interesting perspective.

I don't think anyone can really know what would have happened to Nixon. His crime, IMHO, was not much. But his handling over the affair showed his true colors and allowed his enemies to rightfully crucify him.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
History will be far kinder to Gerald Ford than his contemporaries were.

Always the case. Remember that Lincoln was a DESPISED president over the civil war.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
I don't see anyonther way of interpreting it, if Anderson opened the door for Reagan you are saying his presence got Reagan elected. The spoiler doesn't affect a winner!

My point was that Reagan would not have had the Mandate the GOP claims, had Anderson not been in the mix.

I think you are wrong in your assumption that they would have been more inclined to vote for Reagan.

But, that is something that neither you nor I can say for certain.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
I've shown that Anderson had absolutly NO affect

No, you have not shown anything that proves or discredits this.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 22):
He had negligable affect on Reagan's count so what's the point of even bringing him up?

I didn't bring Carter into the mix. That credit goes to Superfly!
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 23):
Remember that Lincoln was a DESPISED president over the civil war.

Not as much as you have been lead to believe. Certainly in the beginning, he certainly was in danger of losing re-election, but taking Atlanta swung that around. He wasn't REVERED until after his death, but he wasn't despised except in the South. I'd characterize the way people felt is that he was just and ordinary politician, at the time.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 23):
His crime, IMHO, was not much. But his handling over the affair showed his true colors and allowed his enemies to rightfully crucify him.

This is a very important point. Certainly Nixon committed a crime, in his handling of the Watergate situation, but honestly it wasn't any worse than perjury. Which Bill Clinton was convicted of. Nixon's actions made matters worse and his enemies capitalized on them. But the actual crime commit ed wasn't a big one.

Now before some of you bite my head off.

The Constitution says the President can be impeached for "High Crimes and misdemeanors." So he doesn't HAVE to commit a huge crime to be impeached. However, to equate Nixon's crimes with Ken Lay's fraud and stealing of millions is like comparing a mouse with an elephant. Sure they are both mammals with hair but the similarity ends there.

It would have done NO earthly good to drag the country through the "long national nightmare" to use Ford's words, for another 2 or 3 years of trials. Imagine the United States dealing with Nixon and Watergate into 1977 or later with appeals.
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bushpilot
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:23 am

I was not alive to be there to live through those difficult times America was facing. I might have disagreed with myself at the time because I think corruption is beyond a criminal act this country. But at the same time one has to move on, and one needs to lead the country in the right direction. The right direction was away from that period. I am glad the Dems took control of congress, but now is not the time to drag the country through more BS just to settle political battles and add hash marks to the political score sheet. It took a lot of courage from a man who was never voted on, in the traditional sense to that office. I think he did the right thing. With Nixon the damage was done, he was ruined politically and personally. Making room for him in a country club federal prison would not have been worth the effort.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 6):
Add up the Bush votes and the Perot votes. The majority of votes were AGAINST Clinton.

One could also point to the combination of the Core/nader vote in 2000 as being votes against Bush.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 26):
With Nixon the damage was done, he was ruined politically and personally. Making room for him in a country club federal prison would not have been worth the effort.

My only misgiving out of Ford's pardon was that Nixon was never forced to provide an explanation or excuse many felt he owed to those who supported him campaign after campaign, and several terms in elected office.

Nixon's sole attempt at contrition with the American public was in his resignation address where he said:

"I regret deeply any injuries that may have been done in the course of the events that led to this decision. I would say only that if some of my judgments were wrong, and some were wrong, they were made in what I believed at the time to be the best interest of the Nation."

In spite of all of his misdeeds, Nixon maintained that he acted in our best interest. He betrayed the nation even in his departure from office.
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Stretch 8
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:04 pm

Last night, CSPAN rebroadcast President Ford's October 1974 testimony before the House Judiciary Committee, wherein he explained his reasoning for the pardon. No need to rehash here, but what was impressive was that this was the only time in history that a President gave sworn, in-person testimony to Congress, and that he stood his ground with conviction, intelligence, dispassion, and integrity.

The pardon was absolutely the right thing to do. Not for Nixon, certainly not for Ford, and not to thwart the blood-thirsty Democrats at the time. For the country.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 28):
the blood-thirsty Democrats

There were quite a lot of blood-thirsty Republicans too. He essentially ruined the GOP for a number of years, along with the careers of scores of those in his party.
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AirCop
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
There were quite a lot of blood-thirsty Republicans too. He essentially ruined the GOP for a number of years, along with the careers of scores of those in his party.

Very true, alot of Republicans were forced out; although the Republicans were in position to gain control of Congress at that time anyways. If I remember right California had one democrat and one republican senator at that time. My Congressman was a Republican (McCloskey) who actually ran against Nixon for the GOP nod in 1972.
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 3):
He did it probably KNOWING it would cost him his political career.

Historians have said constantly said that he would always but the country before his own interest. He probably pardoned Nixon knowing that it would come back to haunt him in the election, but he probably didn't care.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Now to the question. Yes, the country was so polarized at that time, a full pardon was the only thing capable of allowing us to move on.

 checkmark  Exactly

Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 28):
For the country

Thats what he always did things for, the country, not for himself
 checkmark 
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AeroWesty
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 30):
My Congressman was a Republican (McCloskey) who actually ran against Nixon for the GOP nod in 1972.

Oh wow, Pete McCloskey, famous for receiving the one delegate to the GOP convention who wasn't assigned to Nixon. Big grin

California being California, we elected S.I. Hayakawa (a Republican) to the Senate in 1977, defeating Sen. Tunney after his first term in office. Hayakawa was an interesting character, having served as president of SF State in the late 60s.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
John Anderson who took 5,719,850 votes (6.6%) let the door open for Reagan

That's nothing. How many elections has Ralph Nader fucked up over the years?

Mark
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baroque
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:27 pm

Interesting that this should still raise blood pressures after so many years. On the one hand you have those saying that dragging an ex President through the courts would have been destructive and on the other those saying what he did was so destructive that the court process would have been a healing process.

To this observer, it seems the pros are winning, I am just surprised it still raises such strong feelings.

Acm - thanks! I was beginning to wonder if in the nostalgia for Ford, Nader really had reached so much of a nadir that he had been forgotten!  duck 
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 28):
The pardon was absolutely the right thing to do. Not for Nixon, certainly not for Ford, and not to thwart the blood-thirsty Democrats at the time. For the country.

Well said, Strech 8.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 35):
Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 28):
The pardon was absolutely the right thing to do. Not for Nixon, certainly not for Ford, and not to thwart the blood-thirsty Democrats at the time. For the country.

Well said, Strech 8.

Oh yes, we can now all agree that Watergate was the work of "blood-thirsty Democrats"......revisionist history at its best.

You guys really make me laugh!
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 36):
Oh yes, we can now all agree that Watergate was the work of "blood-thirsty Democrats"......revisionist history at its best.

Get a life Dtwclipper. NO WHERE in Stretch 8's comment was there ANYTHING
referring to Watergate as a Democrat generated problem. Who needs revisionist history when you're revising present comments from Stretch 8

Read what Democrats were saying at the time. Read what Ted Kennedy had to say about the pardon. They WERE foaming at the mouth over the Pardon.

And NOW even Ted Kennedy has admitted that the pardon was the correct thing to do.

Try to put your politics aside long enough to READ and comprehend what people are saying.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 37):
Try to put your politics aside long enough to READ and comprehend what people are saying.

I did read and coprehend, thank you very much.

I'm still waiting for a viable explanation to "blood thirsty democrates"....you sure would get your knickers in a twist if we called those schmucks who went after Clinton for a BJ "blood thirsty Republican"....get a life man!
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 38):
I'm still waiting for a viable explanation

I told you go look up what Democrats were saying at the time about the pardon. They were foaming at the mouth.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908675,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908732,00.html
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dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 39):
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908732,00.html

Nice articles, but I fail to see any blood lust there.


"Democrats generally condemned it.....Critics, including many legal experts, charged that Ford had established a dual system of justice, that he had put Richard Nixon above the law. On all sides, there were grave questions about the ways in which the pardon would affect the men currently jailed or awaiting trial for Watergate-related offenses"

Problem is UAL, we both agree that it was the correct thing to do.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:15 am

Wow you read that fast!

Here is just a sampling:

Thus, barely a month into his presidency, Gerald Ford found himself jeered by a crowd of pardon protesters outside a hotel in Pittsburgh, where he addressed a conference on urban transportation. They waved signs bearing such taunts as THE COUNTRY WON'T STAND FOR AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT—a mockery of Ford's declaration about a pardon for Nixon, which Ford made during the Senate hearings to confirm him as Vice President. In an otherwise pleasant outing to help dedicate a World Golf Hall of Fame in Pinehurst, N.C., Ford faced more banners: SA) and Eagle Air/Arnaflug (Iceland)">IS NIXON ABOVE THE LAW? and JAIL CROOKS, NOT RESISTERS.

Outside the White House, some 250 pickets from George Washington University lofted a bedsheet with the words PROMISE ME PARDON AND I'LL MAKE YOU PRESIDENT—a reference to a widespread cynical suspicion that Nixon as President had exacted a pledge of a pardon from Ford before naming him Vice President and putting him in the line of succession.

The protest was not of Nixonian or Johnsonian proportions or acidity, but it was in sharp contrast to the near-universal era of good feeling that characterized Ford's first four weeks in office. A Gallup poll commissioned by the New York Times last week showed an alarming drop in Ford's popularity. From a rating of 71% approval three weeks before the pardon, he had skidded so that only 49% rated him as doing either a "fair" or "good" job. Unlike Nixon's White House aides, Ford's staff reported the extent of adverse telegrams and mail. More than 30,000 comments were received, and they ran about 6 to 1 against Ford's decision. Telephone callers were less critical; slightly more favored Ford's stand than opposed it.


Was Ford just another devious politician? Particularly among the young, the answer was a disquietingly prevalent yes. NIXON, FORD, ROCKY, THE SAME OLD SHAND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT, declared the complaint stenciled on an American flag at the University of Wisconsin. The Nixon pardon coming on the same day as Evel Knievel's canyon plunge, declared Wisconsin Student Michael Stiklstad, amounted to "the two biggest rip-offs of the public in one day in the history of the country."

This from the article sited above. (for legality sake)
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dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 41):
This from the article sited above. (for legality sa

I read that, but where does it give the political affiliation of said protesters?

And to be honest, I suspected Blood Thirsty Dems was a reference to office holders not protesters, which do you want to talk about?
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Superfly
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
Hayakawa was an interesting character, having served as president of SF State in the late 60s.

SFSU, my Alma mater.  bigthumbsup 
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baroque
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 41):
Wow you read that fast!

Oh we do, we do (read fast). I don't see any calls there to string any of Old Nick, Ford or his henchmen up from a tree, let alone introduce them to Madame La Guillotine.

Opposed, but "bloodthirsty"?
 
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 42):
I read that, but where does it give the political affiliation of said protesters?

Yeah right.

In country that was predominately registered Democrat I think your right those protesters must have been Republicans.

 Yeah sure
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dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 45):
In country that was predominately registered Democrat I think your right those protesters must have been Republicans.

I think what you fail to realize, is that Watergate crossed all political lines.

There were people on all sides of the political landscape who were angry at the Pardon. It would be nice for you to admit that perhaps some in your own party were aghast at the situation.

For once, take off your Conservative bias blinders and look at the truth.....it is hard for you to accept that the Democrats/liberals are not the root of all evil.

Grow up and stop labeling all libs/dems as fascist lunatics (Cindy Shehann aside).


Still, I'm looking for the "blood thirsty" reference in your article, haven't found it yet.
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 46):

I know that Watergate crossed political lines.

I also see that both you and Baroque, apparently fail to understand the use of metaphor.

No where in Stretch 8's comment did he say that people where literally calling for anyone's death when he described Democrats as "blood thirsty." Just as I'm sure Ted Kennedy was not literally "foaming at the mouth" as I stated. I think it IS a fair metaphor to describe their feelings at the thwarting of efforts to see Nixon behind bars.

If you can't recognize the use of metaphor at your age I question your education!

On the other hand it is undeniable that Democrats where extremely angry about Watergate. To compare their desire to haul Nixon into court and then to jail, as "blood thirsty" or "out for blood" is not an exaggeration of their feelings at the time. Just look at some of the comments from those one here who after all this time are STILL angry over the pardon and angry beyond reason over the actions of Nixon. To the point of exaggerating the crimes he committed.

I'm not looking at this in a partisan way.

I have acknowledged Nixon committed a crime. That it was proper for the Congress to begin impeachment proceedings. That he would certainly have been impeached had he not resigned. I have no problem with that.

I have said that Ford's pardon of Nixon was also correct, as it spared the country from further trauma, despite the fact that Nixon eluded justice. I was too young to express my feelings about this at the time. And I don't remember how I felt exaclty. I do remember, as small child, urging my mother not to vote for Ford in 1976. That obviously came from SOME place.

What I HAVE disputed is the characterization that Democrats where calmly accepting of the pardon. Clearly they where not. They were incensed both the rank and file Democrat voter and the Democrats in Congress. I dispute that the electorate was of one single mind on the issue of the pardon. Clearly, as mentioned in the TIME article in 1974 Ford did have some support, is is wrong to characterise the entire country in the way some people have in this thread. And I have disputed that Ford was in anyway wrong for issuing the pardon.

How these arguments are partisan in any way is beyond me.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 47):
If you can't recognize the use of metaphor at your age I question your education!

You're right, I went to all those Eastern Liberal Elitist Schools!!!! Big grin Big grin Big grin

Anywho...I'm done here, have a good New Years!
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baroque
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RE: Was The "Pardon" The Right Thing To Do?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 47):
If you can't recognize the use of metaphor at your age I question your education!

Quite simple, if we did not note that the terms you used were not present in the texts, then you would claim we had agreed that they were there.

I do suspect that the good Dtwc could give you a good lesson or two in the use of metaphor, should he chose to do so - but it looks as if he has flexed off. Goodonyer Dtwc.

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