EZEIZA
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Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:20 pm

So Saddam is dead. Good or bad, he is now gone for good. But was there really a need to execute him? What was the point? Was it not better to at least wait and have an international tribunal make a decision and most of all keep him locked up for life? The risks of this guy becoming a martyr are too big. Am I the only one thinking this? I just have a bad feeling about this ....

regards
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:24 pm

He was sentenced to death. How else could the sentence be carried out? Handing him a pistol and telling him to kill himself wouldn't be a smart thing to do.

Mark
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
The risks of this guy becoming a martyr are too big. Am I the only one thinking this? I just have a bad feeling about this ....

I don't think that is a very large risk. His bases of supporters are limited at best. It certainly would be hard to make a case for him to be a martyr of Islam, as it is seen by many that Saddam is the reason Iraq did not become an Islamic state.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
But was there really a need to execute him? What was the point?

Well, i'm surprised it was this quick. In the US, there would have been years of appeals and other roadblocks here. He's finally gone, and he desrved to go. The cost of keeping him alive was to nice. He wanted to go down as a martyr, i'm glad we were able to give him that. Who says America isn't the "Land of Opportunity"?
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Mir
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
Was it not better to at least wait and have an international tribunal make a decision and most of all keep him locked up for life?

An international ruling wasn't necessary. But what would have been nice was an Iraqi trial that did not resemble a circus.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
He was sentenced to death. How else could the sentence be carried out?

he was senteced to death? really? come on ...
what I'm saying is that he could have been senteced to life in prison. He'll suffer more, no TV circus around this, and no risks. By killing him it's kind of eye for an eye.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
An international ruling wasn't necessary

But it would have at least felt better. Comparing to recent trials, the trial on Milosevic seemed more transparent than this one.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
Mir
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
But it would have at least felt better.

But it would have been irrelevant. Saddam's crimes were committed against Iraqis, and thus it was a purely internal affair.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
Comparing to recent trials, the trial on Milosevic seemed more transparent than this one.

Now we're getting into quality of the trial, and as I said before, the trial Saddam got was hardly ideal regardless of the outcome. There is no doubt that a trial in The Hague or in the US would have been run much better, but I don't believe it is the duty of an international court to rule on an internal case unless the country refers the case to that court. What was needed was an orderly trial by the Iraqi judicial system.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
OV735
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:02 pm

The whole trial seemed like a joke or a bad theatre show if you ask me, but since he was sentenced to death I presume execution is the only way of taking care of that.

And even the execution looked like a joke too - masked men in casual clothes acting as executioners. Like an amateur shoplifting or something.

The biggest problem I see is that some of the Bush-followers will now sigh - Saddam's dead, the world's OK again - while a whole country in the Middle East is blown into bits and pieces, deep in civil war that even the numerous foreign armed forces cannot suffocate.

I'd say the current situation is breeding hundreds of little Saddams who will raise to power in the next few decades and have to be dealt with by our children.

Cheers,
OV735
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Saddam's crimes were committed against Iraqis, and thus it was a purely internal affair.

I am not an expert on Intl law, so I am just assuming and asking here, but again taking Milosevic as an example, that too was more or less internal, as it was a Yugoslavian civil war?
Regardless of this, can a country, in this case Iraq, ask in any way for a trial to take place in The Hague for whatever reason? I'm asking this based on the fact that in this particular case, an Iraqi tribunal will probably not be fair in their decision. They are sentencing the person thhat has ruled them for decades with an iron fist, so sentiments (for or against him) are obviously big, especially considering that the time frame between the start of the war and his execution has been very small.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 7):
And even the execution looked like a joke too - masked men in casual clothes acting as executioners. Like an amateur shoplifting or something

True.Saddam looked determined there too.Were there pics telecast post Execution on the media.
Amazing fall of a Dictator.

regds
MEL
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alaskaqantas
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:49 pm

I do think that it is good that he is gone, but I will say what I have said in other posts because its what I believe:

Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right? (hitler also believed what he did was right). Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

I trully do hope that every soldier over seas makes it back safe, but I also hope that the innocent men, women and childern in Iraq live through this as well.

sorry if you have already read that from me, but I believe that it is a messed up one-sided "world."
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Execution?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right? (hitler also believed what he did was right). Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

Isn't it that the Victor decides the fate of the Defeated.Thats hard reality.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Alaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 635 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted Sat Dec 30 2006 11:49:37 UTC+1 (5 hours 18 minutes 58 secs ago) and read 63 times:

Kyle, good post, but as you know, history is written by the winners. Saddam was evil so he should be punished, but xxxxx or xxxxx should not because they are not evil, they are fighting for freedom  Yeah sure
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Yet here we are (USA) killing more people then Saddam ever did because its what "we" believe is right. Yet nothing happens to any one giving out these orders here in the USA... is it just me or does this seem messed up in some way or another.

You know... I really take offense to this. The suggestion that American soldiers are killing more people than Saddam's regime is total horse shit.

And when I read this, it really makes me wonder what is being reported back home. Do you guys even know what the typical missions are like? What our objectives are? Or how we're combating the enemy?

If you look at who is responsible for killing innocent Iraqis... it's Muslims. Whether Iraqis or foreign fighters. And typically our missions are policing the cities, with the attempt to PREVENT the deaths of innocent people.

Let me repeat that - we put our lives in danger in order to step between Muslims killing Muslims. And it baffles me how people continually fail to grasp the concept of who is responsible for the needless killing in Iraq.

So the suggestion that my buddies and I are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is insulting, and completely ignorant of reality.  crazy 

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
But was there really a need to execute him?

I have question for those opposed to the death penalty... what's the difference between a rope around his neck, or a 2,000lbs bomb dropped on his head?

Dead is dead. The method is usually just semantics.

So if he had been killed in an air strike, he would have been an enemy combatant. To me the execution was just another extension of the overall war.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse he believed it was right?

Are you proposing that "I believe what I did was right!" become a get-out-of-jail-free card?

Let me set you straight.

Human beings are incable of doing bad things on a regular basis.

All criminals, all psychopaths, all sociopaths have a view of the world that makes what they did the "right" thing to do.

True for Saddam.
True for Ted Bundy (sluts're just asking for it)
True for Hitler (Jews ruin Europe)
True for the Tutsi-Hutu genocide.
True for Pol Pot

That they believe in what they are doing is NOT an excuse for it. It, in fact, makes them even more of a threat to civilization, not less.

Get your mind around this: Killing them is not (or should not be) revenge but the cutting out of a cancer.

Some cancers like Saddam or Hitler are dangerous alive. There is this myth of "martyrdom" that people use to claim they are more dangerous dead but history does not bear this out. Alive such people can rally supporters and people die trying to keep them imprisoned. Wars can be started over living figureheads. Nobody starts wars over dead guys. In Iraq there may be a few days of increased violence on excuse of this hanging, but the real motivation behind the insurgency is that its leaders want to become the new Saddam Husseins. They are GLAD he is dead - one more obstacle out of their way.

So don't ADD their death to the list of wrongs done. SUBTRACT the deaths prevented. This is not a popular idea because we cannot easily predict how many people a living Saddam and his former cadre might have killed but common sense tells you it is true.
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aaflt1871
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 1):
How else could the sentence be carried out?

I was hoping for a old fashioned stoning

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
In the US, there would have been years of appeals and other roadblocks here.

Yeah Texas is not even this fast

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
By killing him it's kind of eye for an eye.

I like this type of justice.
Where did everybody go?
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:44 am

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Preamble

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in cooperation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, therefore,

The General Assembly,

Proclaims this Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. ...

http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:05 am

Although Saddam was a pariah and murdered millions, I believe that executing him makes his legacy even more horrible, because it suggests that Iraqi civilization is not evolving or learning from his barbarianism. He should certainly be imprisoned for life, and probably by a host nation so that if things in Iraq go "South," there would be no chance of his return to power.

I think that to claim being "the good guys," a civilization has to be better than "the bad guys."

In that regard we have to be more civilized, compassionate, merciful. We have to set an example of a civilization that values life. There is something non-sensical or insane about the position: "Killing others is so bad, that if you do it, we are going to kill you." Also, in keeping with my "litmus test" of what makes us "the good guys," and a civilized society, I believe that a court sentence should reflect punishment, and ideally, rehabilitation, but not "revenge." And it should not be for political reasons.

If one follows the course of Saddam's life, he was born into an extremely violent and dysfunctional family and society, so he grew up to become a thug, and then a professional hit-man. In his childhood he was psychologically raped, in my view, and a product of his environment. He was a "malignant narcissist," which in my view is a diagnosis of insanity. I don't know to what extent such a condition is genetically pre-conceived or environmental. Either way, those influences are out of a person's control. So whereas he should go to prison for life, to execute him suggests that the dysfunctional Iraqi society that spawned him bears no responsibility for his evolution. Which is arrogant and false.

This is not a religious position I am taking, but one of logic. My interest in the value of human life extends to education, the environment, the elderly, health care, minorities, etc. I believe that we have one leg truly stuck in the dark ages with the death penalty still part of a so-called civilized society. Human life must not be expendable, it must not take a second seat to politics, ideology, religion, etc. The fanatics who blow themselves up while taking out as many civilians as possible are "insane," in my view, and the proof is that they put an idea or ideology ahead of human life, including their own, so ahead of the instinct of "self preservation." We must not base civilized society on the same standard, otherwise we are doomed to more war and eventually our own destruction.

The most moving image I saw of the first Gulf war (which speaks to my basic presmise of needing to be better than "the bad guys,) was when a number of Iraqi soldiers came out of holes in the ground in the desert, to give themselves up to American forces. They crawled up on their knees, terrified, supplicant, begging to not be summarily executed. That is what they expected, because that is what THEY would have done had the situation been reversed. But they were disarmed, checked for their immediate health, sheltered under large canopies, and fed. This is the EXAMPLE civilized society must project, I would suggest, so that the cycle is not continued.

In the latest Iraq war, we see a much different paradigm emerging, with the revelations of abuse in American prisons, prisoners being held in Guantanamo to avoid due process of the law, secret CIA prisons off of American soil, prisoners being handed to foreign authority and turnng a blind eye so they can be tortured by non-Americans. I don't know the extent of these allegations, but if even SOME of it is true, then I fear for our own society, our values, our direction, our example, our moral authority.

These are dark times.
I come in peace
 
aa757first
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse (sic) he believed it was right?

 rotfl 

So, basically, there should be no laws at all, right?

It's alright to rape kids, because the rapist is in love with them?
Is it okay to murder blacks, because they are destroying the world?
Beating up prostitutes until they can barely walk is acceptable if you're just doing it to release your anger on someone unimportant?
I guess dealing heroin to fifteen year olds is okay if you can't find a job anywhere else, right?

AAndrew
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 18):


Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 10):
Is it right to kill him when he did what he did beacuse (sic) he believed it was right?

rotfl

So, basically, there should be no laws at all, right?

It's alright to rape kids, because the rapist is in love with them?
Is it okay to murder blacks, because they are destroying the world?
Beating up prostitutes until they can barely walk is acceptable if you're just doing it to release your anger on someone unimportant?
I guess dealing heroin to fifteen year olds is okay if you can't find a job anywhere else, right?

 checkmark  Yep.

The 'he thought it was right' logic is totally laughable. Makes no sense, at all, period.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
miamix707
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
You know... I really take offense to this. The suggestion that American soldiers are killing more people than Saddam's regime is total horse shit.

And when I read this, it really makes me wonder what is being reported back home. Do you guys even know what the typical missions are like? What our objectives are? Or how we're combating the enemy?

If you look at who is responsible for killing innocent Iraqis... it's Muslims. Whether Iraqis or foreign fighters. And typically our missions are policing the cities, with the attempt to PREVENT the deaths of innocent people.

Let me repeat that - we put our lives in danger in order to step between Muslims killing Muslims. And it baffles me how people continually fail to grasp the concept of who is responsible for the needless killing in Iraq.

So the suggestion that my buddies and I are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is insulting, and completely ignorant of reality.

 checkmark 

You can say the same thing a thousand times here on a.net this but it comes in one ear and out of the other. Some people would rather believe what their uncle tells them or what their socialist/leftist media says.

However I would have thought a lethal injection would have been a better example. Hanging somebody? What example is that for a country in where people are already brutally killing each other? That doesn't seem like a modern form of ending someone's life.

On the other hand, hanging is a more fittiing end to his legacy after he always did whatever he wanted and killed whoever he wanted. A rather cruel but deserved end for an unrepentent, egotistical mass-murderer like Saddam Hussein. A tough lesson other dictators should learn, his actions didn't bring about a good ending.
 
Derico
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
I have question for those opposed to the death penalty... what's the difference between a rope around his neck, or a 2,000lbs bomb dropped on his head?



Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
I like this type of justice.

That's fine, and I respect that. But please respect that others do not believe in the death penalty, under the basis that no human being has a right to have life and death decisions on another. Otherwise, murder not be a crime.

And yes, same goes for abortion, which I oppose.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
174thfwff
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:52 am

Here's the full death video if anyone wants to watch it.
http://www.anwarweb.net/saddamdown.wmv

I believe he is saying the "shahada", the witnessing that should be the last words on the lips of a muslim (in theory)

"I bear witness that there is no god but god, I bear witness that Muhammad *cut off, hung*". should have finished "Is the messenger of god"

[Edited 2006-12-30 23:04:51]
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
RobertNL070
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 20):
However I would have thought a lethal injection would have been a better example. Hanging somebody? What example is that for a country in where people are already brutally killing each other? That doesn't seem like a modern form of ending someone's life.

Talking of lethal injection vs. hanging, it seems that Saddam still got a better deal than Angel Nieves Diaz.

Robert  bouncy 
Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:17 am

Let this be a lesson for you..

When you get into a war, you have to make sure you win!!!

I am a little disapointed that his body was returned to his family, frankly I think it should have been given to a good taxidermist who could then mount it for display in GW's presidential library.

Quoting 174thfwff (Reply 22):
I believe he is saying the "shahada", the witnessing that should be the last words on the lips of a muslim (in theory)

"I bear witness that there is no god but god, I bear witness that Muhammad *cut off, hung*". should have finished "Is the messenger of god"

It seems to be a popular video, I couldn't download it, but isn't amazing how people suddenly find religion under such circumstances.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting 174thfwff (Reply 22):
Here's the full death video if anyone wants to watch it.
http://www.anwarweb.net/saddamdown.wmv

I can't open this link. Is it working?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
brettbrett21
Posts: 422
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:45 am

i just kept pressing ''ok'' and eventually it opened, morbid though!






brett
i'm so excited i wish i could wet my pants!
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Brettbrett21 (Reply 26):
i just kept pressing ''ok'' and eventually it opened, morbid though!

Thanks, but my computer is not responding to such link.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:08 am

The whole Saddam trial was a joke. He didn't have a chance...we knew he was going to swing, there was no other way Saddam could have gotten off.

If he had been tried by the US, I guess he would have gotten life in Supermax..like Zacharias Moussawi.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
I am a little disapointed that his body was returned to his family, frankly I think it should have been given to a good taxidermist who could then mount it for display in GW's presidential library.

He paid the price, its done. No need to humiliate him further.
אני תומך בישראל
 
cedars747
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
Why Execution?

Hola EZEIZA
According to the international conventions it is forbidden to hand a prisoner of war to his adversary

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
TACAA320
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Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 28):
The whole Saddam trial was a joke.

Agreed. A total charade.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
noelg
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 25):

I can't open this link. Is it working?

Right click and save as - make sure you save it as it will most likely be taken down soon though!

Pretty boring really though - no decent close up of his neck snapping or anything Sad One minute he's there, the next 'see ya!'

 Wink
 
SlamClick
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 30):
Agreed. A total charade.

So you don't think he was guilty?
That is pretty amazing.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Gunships
Posts: 555
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RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Killing them is not (or should not be) revenge but the cutting out of a cancer.

I agree 100%.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 16):
Universal Declaration of Human Rights

I guess this didn't apply to the men, women, and children who were tortured and/or gassed to death over the span of a quarter century.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):
If one follows the course of Saddam's life, he was born into an extremely violent and dysfunctional family and society, so he grew up to become a thug



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 17):
to execute him suggests that the dysfunctional Iraqi society that spawned him bears no responsibility for his evolution

ac·count·a·bil·i·ty /əˌkaʊntəˈbɪlɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-koun-tuh-bil-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the state of being accountable, liable, or answerable.
(from dictionary.com)

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
So don't ADD their death to the list of wrongs done. SUBTRACT the deaths prevented.

Outstanding comment. It's too bad some will never grasp the idea though.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
it really makes me wonder what is being reported back home

Whatever will attract viewers is reported. This, obviously, does not always include the truth. Sensationalism sells.
 
adopim88
Posts: 1988
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:33 pm

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:13 am

I agree with his punishment. Plain and simple.
Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:09 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 16):
Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Except Darfur.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
raventom
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:50 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
eye for an eye.

Thousands of Eyes for one eye!

Quoting Adopim88 (Reply 34):
I agree with his punishment. Plain and simple.

We, the British, are against Capital Punishment.
I love the smell of burnt kerosene!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
FlyKev
Crew
Posts: 1295
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:34 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:42 am

I agree that this was the best way to remove this kind of scum from the earth.

Look, you may not agree with it. That's fine. But i feel that had he gassed, poisoned or whatever with your relatives, you would find yourself on a different side I think.

He died how he had executed many, possibly not as bad, its good to see him suffer the way he caused others to suffer.
Life in prison would have been to comfortable for him, food, water, does he deserve it? He robbed so many of those things himself.

Great end to 2006.

Kev.
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But it would have been irrelevant. Saddam's crimes were committed against Iraqis, and thus it was a purely internal affair.

Milosevic's crimes were commited against Yugoslavians, the crimes commited in Rwanda were against Rwandans... shall I carry on?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
Comparing to recent trials, the trial on Milosevic seemed more transparent than this one.

It also dragged out to such an extent that Milosevic died a natural death before he could be punished.

Here is a question for those who think that the death penalty is less severe than life in prison (i.e., the argument that it is better to make a criminal suffer for many years in confinement rather than be given the "blessing" of a quick death): If this is true, then why do most people on death row fear death and hope to have their sentences commuted to life in prison?

If someone could rationally answer this question, the argument that is made might be clarified.

A second point: An article in today's online edition of The New York Times claims that the imposition of the death penalty is now seen in some official European circles as being as "tainted" as any crime for which it is imposed. This seems to me to be a very strange idea. The point of criminal penalty is based on the innate difference between violations of society's law and the conformance with it. It is, therefore, the difference between innocence and guilt. How could the imposition of the death penalty possibly be as tainted as any crime, so considered, unless this essential difference is completely and utterly disregarded?

[Edited 2006-12-31 03:27:23]
What's fair is fair.
 
EZEIZA
Topic Author
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):
I have question for those opposed to the death penalty... what's the difference between a rope around his neck, or a 2,000lbs bomb dropped on his head?

None, he is dead, fair enough, but would it not have been better to let him rot in jail? Unfortunatly this was not justice being made, but marketing. And no, I don't defend what he did and of course I think he was just as bad or worse than all of the other dicators around, but this could have been dealt with in another way.

Dead is dead. The method is usually just semantics.[/quote]
The dead don't suffer, people that rot in prison do.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
By killing him it's kind of eye for an eye.

I like this type of justice.

Well then you are just downgrading yourself to his level.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 37):
He died how he had executed many, possibly not as bad, its good to see him suffer the way he caused others to suffer.

Again, he would have suffered more being in prison.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 40):
The dead don't suffer, people that rot in prison do.

And yet, as I've noted, most people on death row would gladly "suffer" life imprisonment than be executed. Why is this? Could it not be that life in prison in the developed world -- and particular in the better European and American prisons -- is sometimes qualitatively better than the lives of ordinary citizens in less developed countries? Many people in Africa and Asia, for example, live life without the certainty of three meals a day. Yet all prisoners in the developed world enjoy precisely this certainty, and sometimes the regular access to entertainment, conjugal visits, and the like. If so, what does this say about the "horrible nature" of the punishment of life in prison?

[Edited 2006-12-31 03:40:32]
What's fair is fair.
 
airtran737
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Milosevic's crimes were commited against Yugoslavians

Add the Bosnians, and Slovenians in there as well.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:34 am

Consider, as well, this: For those who argue that "death is really too quick and painless and therefore life in prison is better", would you agree, if proposed, that a punishment that is not death, and yet still much more horrible than life in a developed country's prison, should be imposed as a substitute? Would you, for example, agree that in lieu of capital punishment, prisoners guilty of capital crimes for which the death penalty would otherwise be imposed should be made to work 18 hours a day, every day, without exception, at hard labor for the rest of their lives? Or that, perhaps, they should be given electroshock torture that pains them greatly for hours on end, for every day of their lives, in lieu of death?

If not, then isn't your opposition to the death penalty -- in reality -- based on the idea that it is allegedly "cruel and unusual", rather than "too good" for the prisoner?

I wonder what your answer would be to these questions.

[Edited 2006-12-31 03:38:55]
What's fair is fair.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12388
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:39 am

While in most of the western world except for the USA and Japan among a few other countries, execution/death penalties judicially determined sentences are no longer given, they are still acceptable in most of the world, including almost all of the Middle East (excluding Israel, but for 1 person, a WWII Nazi Holocaust criminal in the early 1960's).
Execution, sometimes with cruel methods like stoning to death, hanging, shooting, torture along with amputation for lesser offenses, are still used in many mainly Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia, where the Islamic faith and Government is one and the same, so the law is based on the Koran, and for such crimes, execution and other cruel methods of punishment is mandated. So for Saddam, along with some of his criminal associates that ruled Iraq and authorized violations of human rights against the Islamic faith, deserved in their culture the penalty for death. Yes, one can say the trial was a sham, and largely pushed for by the USA government, but there is little doubt that he had committed horrendous crimes against his people and but for a few of his ex-supporters, the Iraqi people have approved of his execution.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 42):
Add the Bosnians, and Slovenians in there as well.

No I won't, they were Yugoslavs at the time. It would be like saying that Saddam commited crimes against Iraqis and against Kurds as well.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:53 am

From a practical standpoint, I can seem some merit to the idea that Saddam might have suffered more in an Iraqi prison than he did actually suffer upon the imposition of the death penalty -- provided that the Iraqi prison is a primitive, dungeon-like location and that international standards are not imposed for his imprisonment. (How likely is the international community to acquiesce in the dungeon-like imprisonment of Saddam, by the way? How long would it be before do-gooders say that this is inhuman treatment?)

But, if we're going to depart from the rarefied realm of principle and get down to brass tacks -- i.e., practicality -- then what we're going to have to consider is the possibility that Saddam, as long as he remained alive, could still break out of prison with the assistance of his supporters and even regain power. (The argument that the U.S. should act as "hired guns" to guard a dungeon-like prison for the rest of Saddam's life, to help insure against a prison break-out, lacks a certain practicality and, more importantly, exposes the U.S. itself to potential liability or criticism for a protecting noncompliant holding facility. Abu Ghraib, anyone?)

In the end, either we we should have, as we did, permitted the Iraqi government to dispense its form of justice, or the international community, and especially, the European governments opposing the execution of the former Iraqi dictator, should have undertaken to underwrite every kind of liability for the welfare of Saddam Hussein and the risks of keeping him a prisoner. Since they did not, their protests today based on the method of justice seems, for this and other reasons, far less compelling and meritorious than otherwise.

[Edited 2006-12-31 03:58:23]
What's fair is fair.
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Gunships (Reply 33):
Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 16):
Universal Declaration of Human Rights

I guess this didn't apply to the men, women, and children who were tortured and/or gassed to death over the span of a quarter century.

 checkmark  Some people just have to say something to criticize. I don't know if he would still feel so bad for Saddam if he had friend or family tortured/gassed by Saddam Hussein.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 30):
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 28):
The whole Saddam trial was a joke.

Agreed. A total charade.

Care to give us the insight as to why? And tell us how you would've done it different, etc... Thanks.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 47):

Care to give us the insight as to why? And tell us how you would've done it different, etc... Thanks.

Er..because he was guilty. Everyone knew that...no point in having a trial.
אני תומך בישראל
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Why Execution?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 48):
Er..because he was guilty. Everyone knew that...no point in having a trial.

Then you are really missing the point. Good thing you are not president, with that dictator mindset.

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