EZEIZA
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Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:04 am

Since the first one got kind of rough, but it was very interesting, with both sides giving valid points, I would like to continue this debate.
I still beileve, despite interesting and valid views from the other thread, that it would have been better to have Saddam locked for good, in an Iraqi prison or in a remote location or wherever, but not killed. Not because I cherish his life, but on the contrary, killing him leads to nothing but a quick revenge. If would have been under Saddam's oppression i would have loved to see the guy rot rather than die.

let's keep it civilized and Slam, please, before you ask again if I'm a racist, read the other thread. So, fresh start, ok?

regards
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:10 am

Folks, lets keep this thread on track and on topic. The other thread got so far off topic, it was impossible to clean up.

Thanks in advance.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TheCol
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:03 am

For crying out loud...the guy's dead. No amount of debate is going to change anything.

I think it's high time we all should accept that Iraq, as it stands now since the war started, is it's own sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. If the Iraqis feel that the death penalty is a necessary punishment, then that is their perogative. I don't see why we should make a big fuss about any of their domestic laws since it is really no longer the business of the international community. The nations involved in the war itself are there to support that nation as a democracy. Iraq's domestic policy is purely an issue for it's citizens.

[Edited 2007-01-03 03:09:40]
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mirrodie
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 2):
I don't see why we should make a big fuss about any of their domestic laws since it is no longer the business of the international community.

so let me get this straight. How many nations were involved inthe liberation of Iraq? And now it's just a domestic dispute that cresendos into a hanging.

Right  Yeah sure
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kaddyuk
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:16 am

Nothing will change the fact that Saddam is dead. Lets be real, he was dead the moment the US Caught him.

His death is so insignificant to the War in Iraq, its a complete other thread.

The question of the thread is "Why Execution?" and i'll answer in my own perspective.

The cost of keeping dangerous Criminals in prison who have NO chance of ever being released back into population is enormous and for me, the Death Penalty is simply a cost effective method of acheiving a "Life" Sentance.
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
TheCol
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 3):

Ok, I'll try to explain it in simpler terms.

The law regarding the death penalty in Iraq is an Iraqi issue. It wouldn't be fair for any nation(s) to make legal decisions for them or try to influence their decision on any case that involves Iraqi citizens.

Now I can understand if people want to argue that it is against international law. However, these people must also take up their beef with every other country that utilizes the death penalty as well. Singling out Iraq wouldn't be fair, and proves that said people would be leaching off this issue to support a biased agenda.

[Edited 2007-01-03 03:32:25]
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EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 2):
Iraq's domestic policy is purely an issue for it's citizens.

Not as long as foreign military are there (not questioning if its right or wrong since its irrelevant to this)

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 4):
His death is so insignificant to the War in Iraq

To the war yes, but for Iraq I think it is a big deal, just like the death of Pinochet is for Chile.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 4):
The cost of keeping dangerous Criminals in prison who have NO chance of ever being released back into population is enormous and for me, the Death Penalty is simply a cost effective method of acheiving a "Life" Sentance.

I see your point, but how many criminals have (or should have) no chance wither and yet are kept alive? what bother me is not that Saddam was sentenced to death so much as to the fact that I'm afraid he was sentenced to death as, for the lack of a better term, a marketing strategy. That's what i feel this has been. A normal trial, especially when a death penalty is involved, takes much longer with all the appeals, etc., yet this was faster than a speeding ticket dispute (ok, maybe that's going to far, but point made).
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SlamClick
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
and Slam, please

I'll make you a better deal than that. I won't even read this thread.
I know who the players are now.
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TheCol
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Not as long as foreign military are there (not questioning if its right or wrong since its irrelevant to this)

As I said before, the nations involved in the war itself are there to support that nation as a democracy.

Are you suggesting that colalition support should be conditional upon what WE want them to do?

[Edited 2007-01-03 03:43:03]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
I'll make you a better deal than that. I won't even read this thread.
I know who the players are now.

huh?
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
If would have been under Saddam's oppression i would have loved to see the guy rot rather than die.

And I would take satifaction in knowing this guy is rotting in hell 20 years earlier than if he had been in prison for the rest of his natural life.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 4):
The cost of keeping dangerous Criminals in prison who have NO chance of ever being released back into population is enormous and for me, the Death Penalty is simply a cost effective method of acheiving a "Life" Sentance.

 checkmark 
Very well stated.


Quoting EZEIZA (Thread starter):
I still beileve, despite interesting and valid views from the other thread, that it would have been better to have Saddam locked for good, in an Iraqi prison or in a remote location or wherever, but not killed

What good comes out of keeping this guy locked up?
I've asked numerous times and no one in the anti-death penalty crowd wants to try to tackle the question:
What would he do in prison? What would be accomplished? Him sitting in a cell 24 hours a day? He'd be safe from anyone who wished to harm him. He'd receive free food, healthcare, and protection, paid for by the very people he once ruled over.


Quoting TheCol (Reply 5):
The law regarding the death penalty in Iraq is an Iraqi issue. It wouldn't be fair for any nation(s) to make legal decisions for them or try to influence their decision on any case that involves Iraqi citizens.

Correct. The same people who complained about how this war was forcing Western traditions, values, ideals, and culture onto the Iraqi's and how we should let the Iraqi's handle their own affairs are now the same people who are complaining that the new Iraqi government is taking actions based on their traditions, values, ideals, and culture and they are the ones now trying to tell Iraqi's how to govern themselves and setup and run their legal systems.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
kaddyuk
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
what bother me is not that Saddam was sentenced to death so much as to the fact that I'm afraid he was sentenced to death as, for the lack of a better term, a marketing strategy

Saddam was dead the day that the US caught him over 3 years ago...

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Not as long as foreign military are there

The foreign soldiers are only there to enforce the law, not to make it up therefore in my eyes they are irrelivent...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
TheCol
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 10):
Correct. The same people who complained about how this war was forcing Western traditions, values, ideals, and culture onto the Iraqi's and how we should let the Iraqi's handle their own affairs are now the same people who are complaining that the new Iraqi government is taking actions based on their traditions, values, ideals, and culture and they are the ones now trying to tell Iraqi's how to govern themselves and setup and run their legal systems.

 checkmark 

That's exactly what I was getting at.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
Are you suggesting that colalition support should be conditional on what WE want them to do?

it's not a mistery that all Iraqi government actions need the approval of the nations that are in iraq right now.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 5):
It wouldn't be fair for any nation(s) to make legal decisions for them or try to influence their decision on any case that involves Iraqi citizens.

I don't want to start a parallel topic here, but with that it mind, no one had the right to start the war in the first place, wouldn't you agree?
Saddam Hussein was not an ordinary Iraqi citizen. And he was not only involved in domestic issues. Kuwait and Iran certainyl would agree. So IMO the International community should have something to say. Milosevic was brought to an intl tribunal for a (at the time) domestic Yugoslavian issue. And his trial was going on forever, yet this was done so quickly that something smells funny. By no means am i defending Saddam, and as I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not necesserily against the death penalty, but it just does not feel right in this case, at least so soon.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 10):
The same people who complained about how this war was forcing Western traditions, values, ideals, and culture onto the Iraqi's and how we should let the Iraqi's handle their own affairs are now the same people who are complaining that the new Iraqi government is taking actions based on their traditions, values, ideals, and culture and they are the ones now trying to tell Iraqi's how to govern themselves and setup and run their legal systems.

I was just watching MSNBC, and they stated that the gallows Saddam hung from were on the grounds of a US military base in Iraq.

I'm obviously lost in your argument, since the Iraqis weren't even able to take actions "based on their traditions, values, ideals and culture" without heading over to the local US base to do so.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 11):
The foreign soldiers are only there to enforce the law, not to make it up therefore in my eyes they are irrelivent...

but isn't that a contradiction? It's an iraqi issue so the intl community has to stay out of it, but foreign soldiers apply iraqi law?
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Yellowstone
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 10):
Correct. The same people who complained about how this war was forcing Western traditions, values, ideals, and culture onto the Iraqi's and how we should let the Iraqi's handle their own affairs are now the same people who are complaining that the new Iraqi government is taking actions based on their traditions, values, ideals, and culture and they are the ones now trying to tell Iraqi's how to govern themselves and setup and run their legal systems.

I think there's an important difference between the two situations. Even though I believe we should respect cultural differences, there are certain practices that are not acceptable in any culture, as they violate human dignity and rights. Among these is the death penalty. Now, I certainly recognize that Saddam was using the death penalty and many other of these unacceptable practices before he was deposed, and the international community should have taken reasonable steps to stop or reduce these - just not all-out war, which is itself unacceptable in my book. The difference, then, is that changing Iraq's cultural practices is impossible in the short term unless massive violence is used (and even then it almost certainly won't work), while there were many easily obtainable alternatives to Saddam's execution, including sending him to the Hague to stand trial for violation of international law.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
I was just watching MSNBC, and they stated that the gallows Saddam hung from were on the grounds of a US military base in Iraq.

I'm obviously lost in your argument, since the Iraqis weren't even able to take actions "based on their traditions, values, ideals and culture" without heading over to the local US base to do so.

I wasn't aware of this. My best guess would be that this was done for security reasons. Not that your argument is really all that relevant to my point anyway. Who the hell cares where he was hung?
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 17):
Who the hell cares where he was hung?

Yeah, well, that's what people said when the US staged forces in Saudi Arabia for the Gulf War.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
Even though I believe we should respect cultural differences, there are certain practices that are not acceptable in any culture, as they violate human dignity and rights. Among these is the death penalty.

Sorry to break it to you, but that is an opinion.
Here's the 5th Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Interpret for yourself:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:21 pm

I fully recognize that this is just my opinion; of course, I happen to think my opinion is right. What I was trying to explain was how it is not necessarily hypocritical to argue that we shouldn't force certain Western cultural values on Iraq while also arguing that Iraq shouldn't have executed Saddam.
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Dougloid
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 4):
The cost of keeping dangerous Criminals in prison who have NO chance of ever being released back into population is enormous and for me, the Death Penalty is simply a cost effective method of acheiving a "Life" Sentance.

Not true. You can buy an annuity and feed a guy on five bucks woth of hot dogs a week for a long time and still have your money when he croaks.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 19):
Sorry to break it to you, but that is an opinion.
Here's the 5th Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Interpret for yourself:

The fifth does not apply in Iraq.

All kidding aside fellows, we're not unanimous about the death penalty even here in hang-em-high Amurrika. I believe twelve states do not have the DP and of the ones that do in a number of cases it is seldom applied (Nebraska, North Dakota).

The arguments against the death penalty are of three varieties. I shall list them.

1. It's cheaper to confine people than to treat them to an all expenses paid trip through the federal appeals system. This is a dangerous argument.

2. It's morally or ethically or religiously impermissible to use the power of the state to kill people, no matter what their crimes are.

3. It's too much finality when guilt can not be proven conclusively.

Why is number 1 dangerous? Simply because it's a market based argument. When someone comes in with a way that cuts the cost sufficiently, your argument wilts and dies. If you have to be against the death penalty it is far better to oppose it on religious pr moral principles.

Number 3 is also a weak argument because we've never required conclusive proof in criminal cases. There will always be an error rate.

As it happens my state has not executed a person since 1964 when we got rid of the DP-far in advance of Canada, Britain, France and much of the rest of the world. That's right, little ole Iowa. Of course there is the small matter of the federal death penalty which is going to be applied in two cases out of Sioux City. But that demands an exercise of concurrent jurisdiction, something which many Europeans do not seem to be able to wrap their heads around. No matter.

I can tell you that a capital case would bankrupt most of our counties, as they are poor. I believe that exact thing happened in Mississippi. Instead, we ship them off to Fort Madison, they stay there forever, and they never get out. That's a death sentence in a way, without the expense of endless appeals. That way they get their one appeal, and they're done in about three years.

I think if you can guarantee people that the offenders will never get out, then you can take the death penalty off the table in a lot of places, but untill the guarantee's in place people will push for executions.

As it happens I've corresponded with a lifer in Oklahoma, and maybe I should drop him a line and see what he says about the subject.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:10 pm

One of the first thoughts that went through my mind was that nos Saddam might have become a martyr for many, that in fact is one of the reasons IMO he should have been given life in prison, and today watching the news they were reporting thousands of pro Saddam demonstrators all over Iraq as well as many people going to his grave to pay respects. Obviously I just know what the media shows, but is it possible after all that he is becoming a martyr for many? Isn't that pretty disturbing? That's what you avoid by keeping him in a cell instead of hanging him.
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TheCol
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 13):
Saddam Hussein was not an ordinary Iraqi citizen. And he was not only involved in domestic issues. Kuwait and Iran certainyl would agree. So IMO the International community should have something to say. Milosevic was brought to an intl tribunal for a (at the time) domestic Yugoslavian issue. And his trial was going on forever, yet this was done so quickly that something smells funny. By no means am i defending Saddam, and as I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not necesserily against the death penalty, but it just does not feel right in this case, at least so soon

That's actually an interesting point worth being addressed. It would have actually been a positive PR move for the coalition if Saddam was tried by an international tribunal. It would probably send a message to the world that the international community is unified on this issue. Maybe that's why the international community didn't make a big pitch for something like this. There are a lot of nations still bitter about this war. It is also possible that some nations could have been concerned about potential acts of terrorism perpetrated against them in revenge.

However that didn't happen, and I think we should stand by Iraq's decision to show that we support their democracy. It was their call in the end, and they did what thought was right with no huge injustice done to the rest of us. I know some of you don't agree with their decision, but harping on them, especially to support your biased agenda and embitterment, will make things a lot worse.

EZEIZA please take note that I wasn't directing that last sentence towards you.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 22):
One of the first thoughts that went through my mind was that nos Saddam might have become a martyr for many, that in fact is one of the reasons IMO he should have been given life in prison, and today watching the news they were reporting thousands of pro Saddam demonstrators all over Iraq as well as many people going to his grave to pay respects. Obviously I just know what the media shows, but is it possible after all that he is becoming a martyr for many? Isn't that pretty disturbing? That's what you avoid by keeping him in a cell instead of hanging him.

I think the Iraqi officials, and Iraq in general, wanted to be rid of him ASAP. I bet they were afraid that the notion of Saddam sitting in jail alive would cause more long term violence. If Saddam was still alive, his supporters would still have that glimmer of hope that their fearless leader could be freed and everything could go back to square one if they fought hard enough. I know it sounds stupid, but there are lots of examples of this mindset in the course of human history.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Why Execution? Part II

Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 23):
However that didn't happen, and I think we should stand by Iraq's decision to show that we support their democracy. It was their call in the end, and they did what thought was right with no huge injustice done to the rest of us.

Well, on the one thing everyone agrees is that the guy was as Guilty as the devil, but I'm not so sure that it was only Iraqs call at the end. I think there was some pressure from part of the intl community, not to mention any names  Wink
Not that the result would have changed much without any foreign pressure, cause again, the guy was guilty of what he was being judged for and many other things, but if this trial would have been addressed differently, we would probably not be even having this debate.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 23):
EZEIZA please take note that I wasn't directing that last sentence towards you.

got ya!  Smile
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