bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

Web Design

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:27 pm

Ok... so, I just got my very own linux server up and running (anybody want some free webspace??). But... now that its up, I decided to make some use out of it and make a web site.

I know about Dreamweaver and the new Microsoft replacement for FrontPage, but I don't exactly have a lot of money to shell out.

Does anybody know of any free (prefferably open-source? Web design seems to be the one thing the open-source community is lacking) design platform? I know about N|vu, and I have it, but I keep getting fed up with its bugs with tables and CSS. It makes it impossible to use at some times.

Thanks!
 
tz757300
Posts: 2725
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 am

RE: Web Design

Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:56 pm

Well I got Dreamweaver MX 2004 for free....of course not the way that its supposed to be done.

If need be, ill send ya the whole file that contains the program.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
JeffSFO
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Web Design

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:49 pm

Take a look at Amaya; it's an open source software program available for free from the W3C:

http://www.w3.org/Amaya/

Alternatively, you can download a 30-day trial of Dreamweaver 8 from this page:

http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 2):

ah ok thanks!!

If the previous poster's idea doesn't work out, I'll just keep redownloading the 30-day trial... unless they're smart enough to disable that.

Thanks for Amaya, too... I forgot about it!
 
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nighthawk
Posts: 4781
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Web Design

Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 3):
If the previous poster's idea doesn't work out, I'll just keep redownloading the 30-day trial... unless they're smart enough to disable that.

They are smart enough  Silly

If your gonna use a WYSIWYG editor, then dreamweaver is the way to go. Otherwise use notepad.
 
JeffSFO
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):
If your gonna use a WYSIWYG editor, then dreamweaver is the way to go. Otherwise use notepad.

Depending on what kind of site you're going to construct, DW 8 is great for code-based page building, css production and content management. Except for editing existing tabular data I rarely, if ever, use the WYSIWYG editor in DW.

For an easy to use code-based program, I recommend Textpad over Notepad.

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 3):
Thanks for Amaya, too... I forgot about it!

If you end up trying that, let us know what you think. I've never used it myself.
 
sv2008
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:05 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:00 am

This is open source, free ware:-

http://www.nvu.com/index.php

Not the best, but it's free....oh wait I already wrote that.


Any product where they have to tell you how to pronounce the name on the first page has gotta be good  Smile

[Edited 2007-01-03 20:01:25]
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 6):
This is open source, free ware:-

http://www.nvu.com/index.php



Quoting Bagpiper (Thread starter):
I know about N|vu, and I have it, but I keep getting fed up with its bugs with tables and CSS. It makes it impossible to use at some times.

N|vu is ok, and probably I'll end up using it anyways if I can't get Dreamweaver. I can't figure out Amaya for the life of me, and there aren't any freaking tutorials online. Oh well.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:33 am

Roll your sleeves up and code like a man - directly in HTML and CSS.

Been doing it for years, wouldnt ever use a program to do it for me.
 
sv2008
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:05 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:44 am

I use Nvu to maintain a basic website, it's ok, I can imagine for more complex stuff it might not work well.

It needs professional design really, as it's just something I created in my free time and it looks it to be honest.
 
PLANAR
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:37 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:41 am

Since you are using Linux, I would recommend you use:
KDE Quantas - its actually very good and very similar to Dreamweaver, plus its free!

Nopes Open Source community does not lack tools in web-designing! In fact there are a plethora of good tools out there - it just takes a keen eye to fish them out.

Not only that editors like Vim can auto-colour your source code and make it look good.

Most linux distributions natively come with Perl installed. Perl is one hell of a language - combine it with Apache (the webserver) and you have pretty nifty server running with which you can serve dynamic web-pages.

In addition almost all Linux distros come with PHP installed too - which is very easy to learn and can be seamlessly integrated in a webpage.

If you are serious about pursuing web-design - have a look at AJAX. Download a few tool-kits and you can have a professional looking original web-pages with minimal effort!
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Roll your sleeves up and code like a man

I chuckle when people say that... Just because I use a WYSIWYG editor it makes me less of a "man" than someone using notepad... Thats alright, i'll get my webpage up and running in 1/10th the time, leaving me to be a "man" in other fields while you're still frustratingly attempt to get those darn images to line up correctly...!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
PLANAR
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:37 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 11):
I chuckle when people say that... Just because I use a WYSIWYG editor it makes me less of a "man" than someone using notepad... Thats alright, i'll get my webpage up and running in 1/10th the time, leaving me to be a "man" in other fields while you're still frustratingly attempt to get those darn images to line up correctly...!

 checkmark  Right-o.
The real "man" is someone who can use all the tools at his disposal to do the work in a fraction of the time it can be done in!

Reusability is an important paradigm of programming concepts.

But nevertheless - there are times, when you have to go down, roll-up your sleeves and get down to opening those files in something basic as notepad.

Especially with Microsoft's software, that always seem to produce a lot of unclean junk on top of the files! Makes me wonder why I was using the WYSIWYG tool by MS in the first place...
Oh right... Wink
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 12):
But nevertheless - there are times, when you have to go down, roll-up your sleeves and get down to opening those files in something basic as notepad.

Oh yeah, sorry i completely agree that Notepad has its uses, especially when i'm rushed and i know exactly what needs changing. Very useful for quickly looking at a file because DW takes a minute or two to start up and notepad is instant...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 11):
I chuckle when people say that... Just because I use a WYSIWYG editor it makes me less of a "man" than someone using notepad... Thats alright, i'll get my webpage up and running in 1/10th the time, leaving me to be a "man" in other fields while you're still frustratingly attempt to get those darn images to line up correctly...!

Amen.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 10):

I'll look into that KDE tool. I'm running KDE on Fedora 6, but that is on my server. My regular computer (this one) is XP Home. Although I'd love to change that, the other people who use this computer would be less than thrilled.

Since the server is off in its own corner running itself, I'd rather not mess with making web pages on it... but if absolutely neccessary, I will, since I won't be editing the web site every 3 days.



I'll have to look into AJAX. I am, of course, running Perl and PHP, with MySQL. I installed XAMPP, which is a complete server package, with Apache, Pure-FTPD, mysql, php, perl, python, and tons more.

I guess not setting everything up by hand, and using XAMPP makes me less of a man, too.

 Wink
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 14):
I installed XAMPP,

Ditto...

Time saving tool on my Laptop & Windows PC...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
PLANAR
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:37 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 14):
Since the server is off in its own corner running itself, I'd rather not mess with making web pages on it... but if absolutely neccessary, I will, since I won't be editing the web site every 3 days.

Looks to me that you are all set with the server!  Smile Actually, Linux is an excellent environment for coding and doing stuff.

You can safetly code on your linux server box, without any worry. Linux is designed to very ably multi-task.

I used to design web-pages for voting by the students of my engineering college and then used to deploy it on the Apache server and leave it running.
While then I used to use the same box, to fire up a good movie to watch, generally browsing and checking mails in the background at the same time, while the elections kept running through the web-server.

Peak hit rates were registered at around 300 in a span of about 15 minutes and yet Linux never flinched!

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 14):
I guess not setting everything up by hand, and using XAMPP makes me less of a man, too.

As I said earlier - this actually makes you the real "man"!  Wink


Rgrds
PLA
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 16):

Yeah, the only problem is the box is in a remote closet... and dragging out the monitor and hooking up the keyboard can be a pain, especially since family doesn't like me "taking up tons of room with that desktop".

Oh well.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 15):

You use Pure-FTPD, too? If so, I've got some problems with it right now.

It'll let me connect to the ftp server via my LAN, but if I try to connect (using the same user) from the internet to the ftp server, it wont work.

I'm stumped. So are a lot of Linux people on the forums...
 
hawaiian717
Posts: 3139
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 17):
It'll let me connect to the ftp server via my LAN, but if I try to connect (using the same user) from the internet to the ftp server, it wont work.

I assume this is connected at your home via a home router? If so, the machine has a private IP address and you've set up port forwarding so that outside web sites can use the machine.

FTP is a rather odd protocol and the way it works leads to lots of problems with NAT. (Read http://www.ncftp.com/ncftpd/doc/misc/ftp_and_firewalls.html for a discussion). Plus, your password is sent unencrypted across the network, which is a Really Bad Thing if you're accessing from outside your local network. If I were you, I'd dump the FTP server and instead use SFTP, which is included with OpenSSH, to access the server. I usually use WinSCP as an SFTP client on Windows.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Web Design

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 11):
I chuckle when people say that... Just because I use a WYSIWYG editor it makes me less of a "man" than someone using notepad... Thats alright, i'll get my webpage up and running in 1/10th the time, leaving me to be a "man" in other fields while you're still frustratingly attempt to get those darn images to line up correctly...!

If you are at all competant in HTML, it would take you the same or less time to lay out the page, in less code and have it validate better.

HTML and CSS are so easy to get to grips with, its no wonder people using WYSIWYG apps get looked down upon - your applications can never produce the standard of code I produce by hand.

There are many other benefits as well - I dont have to spend out on costly applications, I can sit down at any computer with a text editor and produce websites to an equal standard, I dont have to learn the nuances of a software package.

[Edited 2007-01-04 15:12:34]
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 18):

ok, that makes a little bit more sense.

Yes, I do have port forwarding on, for ports 20, 21, and 2020, just to be 100% sure. The server and client are both using port 21.

Obviously I have port 80 open, too, for the Apache server.

The error I'm getting when connecting to the FTP server is:


--------------
State:> Creating control socket...
State:> Connecting to 66.32.151.211 ...
State:> Socket connected, waiting for welcome message...
Reply:> 220---------- Welcome to Pure-FTPd [privsep] [TLS] ----------
220-You are user number 5 of 50 allowed.
220-Local time is now 10:12. Server port: 21.
220-IPv6 connections are also welcome on this server.
220 You will be disconnected after 15 minutes of inactivity.
Command:> user Jordan
Reply:> 331 User Jordan OK. Password required
Command:> pass *********
Reply:> 230-Your bandwidth usage is restricted
230-User Jordan has group access to: 31
230 OK. Current restricted directory is /
Command:> pwd
Reply:> 257 "/" is your current location
State:> Creating data socket...
Command:> pasv
Reply:> 227 Entering Passive Mode (192,168,2,99,26,218)
Command:> list
State:> Data connection closed.
State:> Auto close data connection.
----------------

And if I try to connect via active:

----------------
State:> Creating control socket...
State:> Connecting to 66.32.151.211 ...
State:> Socket connected, waiting for welcome message...
Reply:> 220---------- Welcome to Pure-FTPd [privsep] [TLS] ----------
220-You are user number 7 of 50 allowed.
220-Local time is now 10:13. Server port: 21.
220-IPv6 connections are also welcome on this server.
220 You will be disconnected after 15 minutes of inactivity.
Command:> user Jordan
Reply:> 331 User Jordan OK. Password required
Command:> pass *********
Reply:> 230-Your bandwidth usage is restricted
230-User Jordan has group access to: 31
230 OK. Current restricted directory is /
Command:> pwd
Reply:> 257 "/" is your current location
Command:> port 192,168,2,2,5,169
Reply:> 500 I won't open a connection to 192.168.2.2 (only to 66.32.151.211)
State:> Force close data connection.
-----------------

Maybe I'll give SFTP a try....

[Edited 2007-01-04 16:17:48]
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:38 am

oh and also, I set the linux box into a DMZ (outside of firewall area) on my router... so it can't be the firewall thats messing things up.
 
EWS
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:41 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:47 am

Mr Piper..

Add me to MSN: ews@airliners.net and ill sort you out.

Lew
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting EWS (Reply 22):

 Wink

you rock
 
EWS
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:41 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 23):
you rock



Lew
 
JeffSFO
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 19):
If you are at all competant in HTML, it would take you the same or less time to lay out the page, in less code and have it validate better.

If you're competing against a WYSIWYG builder only, you have a point. But when using 'Code' view in Dreamweaver with templates and snippets, I can run circles around someone who's using Notepad. It will validate just as well too because the templates and snippets are hand coded items that have been saved for such use. Who wants to type out something like a Flash deconcept wrapper when you have it saved in a snippet already?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 19):
your applications can never produce the standard of code I produce by hand.

Yes they can, if you set them up to do so as I explained above. However, I prefer not to use the WYSIWYG feature in Dreamweaver except when configuring tabular data.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 19):
There are many other benefits as well - I dont have to spend out on costly applications, I can sit down at any computer with a text editor and produce websites to an equal standard, I dont have to learn the nuances of a software package.

Good points. However, I find Notepad hard to edit with because it's not color coded, hence my preference for TextPad.

Cheers,
Jeff
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 25):
If you're competing against a WYSIWYG builder only, you have a point. But when using 'Code' view in Dreamweaver with templates and snippets, I can run circles around someone who's using Notepad. It will validate just as well too because the templates and snippets are hand coded items that have been saved for such use. Who wants to type out something like a Flash deconcept wrapper when you have it saved in a snippet already?

I will agree with this, I have a ready bank of snippits to call upon when I need them - dont need a fancy editor to handle that for me  Wink

My snippit library is online (about 17,000 snippits in 4 languages) so its available to me wherever theres an internet connection.

Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 25):
Yes they can, if you set them up to do so as I explained above. However, I prefer not to use the WYSIWYG feature in Dreamweaver except when configuring tabular data.

I will disagree with this, not one single WYSIWYG application I have tested has been able to produce clean, concise code to the extent I can by hand.

Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 25):
Good points. However, I find Notepad hard to edit with because it's not color coded, hence my preference for TextPad.

My three weapons of choise are a windows app called Editplus (about £15), a mac app called TextMate (about £20) and Vi. Depending on what platform Im on of course.

However I dont need to use any of those, Im quite comfortable banging out code in notepad if it comes to that.
 
JeffSFO
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 26):
Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 25):
Yes they can, if you set them up to do so as I explained above. However, I prefer not to use the WYSIWYG feature in Dreamweaver except when configuring tabular data.

I will disagree with this, not one single WYSIWYG application I have tested has been able to produce clean, concise code to the extent I can by hand.

I think we're both 'right' on this one, at least as far as Dreamweaver 8 goes. If I decided to sit down with an Adobe web template at work, I could use the WYSIWYG editor in DW8 and everything would validate beautifully if the user knew what they were doing. I wouldn't recommend it but it's totally do-able. However, if a novice user sat down and tried to use the WYSIWYG editor to make a CSS and standards compliant web site, it would be a mess. That said, DW8 does a very good job of keeping the code clean unlike previous versions.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 26):
My snippit library is online (about 17,000 snippits in 4 languages) so its available to me wherever theres an internet connection.

Impressive!

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 26):
Im quite comfortable banging out code in notepad if it comes to that.

I've never been able to use it efficiently like that because I get lost too quickly, although I know others who do as you do. Regardless, it's a great little program and I use it for other things all the time.
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:09 am

Anyway if you need any help with linux let me know.

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):
Otherwise use notepad.

There's a window alternative called EmEditor, I use it for working with PHP.
The free version gives you lots of features such as:
- Tabs
- Syntax highlighting for various languages
- advanced search and replace (incuding regular expressions)
- support for various encodings
and much more... and it launches itself as fast as notepad
rolf
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 28):
Anyway if you need any help with linux let me know.

I assume that was directed at me...

I still can't get the ftp to work. I guess I'll probably reinstall linux, since I probably messed a lot of stuff up in the learning process. Then I'll just install what I need, and hopefully it'll work.
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:58 am

What distro do you use?
I recommend ubuntu. or xubuntu for old hardware and to spare resources.
Why dont you just reinstall FTP?
rolf
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:36 am

I have Studio 8 (Dreamweaver, Fireworks, etc) and it was like $399 if your a student. Thats worth a try.
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: Web Design

Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 30):

I'm running Fedora Core 6 right now... I'm actually thinking about Ubuntu.

I've reinstalled the ftp program about 3 or 4 times, and tried every single one I can get my hands on. I'm guessing I just screwed something up with the computer... some ftp programs work better than others, but none work properly.

I'll probably swipe the system clean tonight, and reinstall fedora.... or maybe Ubuntu. I'll look at the differences and the reviews.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 31):

399 for both? wow. I'll look into that!

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